Re: AW: Intel QSV H.264 codec for AVFoundation and DirectShow

[Richard Gaskin]

Tiemo Hollmann wrote:

> FYI
> I asked Sorenson Media, whos video compressor I am using, if I have
> to pay license fees for the H.264 codec for encoding videos with
> Sorenson squeeze for a commercial product. They answered to me:
>
> " No, you do not need to pay any license fees to use any codecs
> included in Squeeze. Sorenson Media pays any license fees necessary
> for all the codecs contained in Squeeze. Once you have encoded your
> video with a licensed product, like Squeeze, you will never need to
> pay any licensing fees again."

That would seem reasonable.

My earlier comment was based around the misunderstanding that you were 
making software that included the codec.  If you're just using other 
people's software then of course their EULA describes their software's use.


It's nice to see that Sorensen has paid the extra multi-million dollar 
fee for their customers' commercial use that Apple didn't for Final Cut Pro.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for Desktop, Mobile, and Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com


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Re: AW: Intel QSV H.264 codec for AVFoundation and DirectShow

[Mark Waddingham]

On 2016-07-07 09:16, Tiemo Hollmann TB wrote:

FYI
I asked Sorenson Media, whos video compressor I am using, if I have to 
pay
license fees for the H.264 codec for encoding videos with Sorenson 
squeeze

for a commercial product. They answered to me:

" No, you do not need to pay any license fees to use any codecs 
included in
Squeeze. Sorenson Media pays any license fees necessary for all the 
codecs

contained in Squeeze. Once you have encoded your video with a licensed
product, like Squeeze, you will never need to pay any licensing fees 
again."


This is what I would expect.

If you produce and distribute a program which includes an H.264 
compressor or decompressor then you need to pay patent license fees (in 
actual fact, I suspect even if you don't distribute said program, and 
use it to generate compressed video, you still need to pay patent 
license fees).


So, if you use a third-party product you have bought (like Squeeze), and 
OS included codecs to playback the video (like AVFoundation and 
DirectShow used in LiveCode) then that has already been taken care of 
for you.


In regards to the 'stepping' - it might worth asking Sorenson (who sound 
very helpful!) about that. In particular with regards DirectShow. Having 
a key frame every frame I'd have thought would vastly reduce the effacy 
of compression - so I wonder if there's some other tricks to encoding 
which would let it work in DirectShow, the way you want.


Alternatively, if you can find an open source program which *does* allow 
stepping through H.264 videos via DirectShow on Windows then let us know 
and we can see if it is possible to make DirectShow do that without 
special encoding options. (After all, if AVFoundation lets you do it for 
an arbitrary H.264 encoded video, then you'd think it would be possible 
for DirectShow to; on the other hand, AVFoundation I think is newer and 
perhaps 'better' than DirectShow due to that, so it is very hard to 
say!).


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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AW: Intel QSV H.264 codec for AVFoundation and DirectShow

[Tiemo Hollmann TB]

FYI
I asked Sorenson Media, whos video compressor I am using, if I have to pay
license fees for the H.264 codec for encoding videos with Sorenson squeeze
for a commercial product. They answered to me:

" No, you do not need to pay any license fees to use any codecs included in
Squeeze. Sorenson Media pays any license fees necessary for all the codecs
contained in Squeeze. Once you have encoded your video with a licensed
product, like Squeeze, you will never need to pay any licensing fees again."

Tiemo


-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] Im Auftrag
von Tiemo Hollmann TB
Gesendet: Dienstag, 5. Juli 2016 09:15
An: 'How to use LiveCode' <use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
Betreff: AW: Intel QSV H.264 codec for AVFoundation and DirectShow

Hi Richard,

thank you for your profund informations and helpful links.
I wasn't aware of this complex matter. I have to think about if I want to
let sleeping dogs lie.

Tiemo


-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] Im Auftrag
von Richard Gaskin
Gesendet: Montag, 4. Juli 2016 17:14
An: use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Betreff: Re: Intel QSV H.264 codec for AVFoundation and DirectShow

Tiemo Hollmann wrote:

> I am looking for the most standardized state of the art codec to get a 
> maximum of compatibility on both platforms, so I think H.264 is the 
> right choice.
>
> My special requirement is, that I have to step thru the video frame by 
> frame controlled by LC.
>
> My sorenson squeeze compressor offers 4 different H.264 codecs: "Intel 
> QSV H.264", "MainConcept H.264", "Sorenson MPEG-4", "x264"
>
> My LC tests showed me, that I need to set a keyframe every single 
> frame to be able to step thru the video framebased (at least with 
> DirectShow). This option do only the intel QSV and the x264 codec offer.
>
> The x264 codec is a opensource codec and as far as I understand it is 
> not preinstalled on any system and at least on my Mac a x264 video 
> can't be played (perhaps there is a chance to manually install it, 
> what I would like to avoid for my customers)
>
> So up to now it seems to me that only the intel QSV H.264 is left of 
> my choices. It should be supported from Windows Vista on and from OS X
10.8 on.
>
> Has anybody experiences in this field of codecs, other experiences or 
> tipps or would negate some of my conclusions?

Choosing a codec is a complex issues given the scope and variety of their
patent licensing.

My lay person's understanding is that x264 is available under GPL, so it's
useful for GPL-governed works but as you've noted isn't as widely available
across the many platforms we may choose to support.

H.264 is a good codec technically and has wide distribution, but AFAIK
remains mired in a patent pool so complex it needs an FAQ to try to explain
it:
<http://www.mpegla.com/main/programs/AVC/Pages/FAQ.aspx>

This article describes some of the legal considerations with H.264 in lay
terms:
<http://www.zdnet.com/article/a-closer-look-at-the-costs-and-fine-print-of-h
-264-licenses/>

One of the open questions for us software developers is the case of
distributing commercial tools that use H.264.  Apple and Microsoft have
their own license arrangements with the MPEG-LA consortium for distributing
the codec with their respective OSes (perhaps easier for Apple since they're
a member of that consortium), but we may need to review the OS EULA to
determine the allowable scope of use for the codec in our own commercial
software products.

For example, here are relevant sections of the Final Cut Pro X EULA, which
make it explicitly clear that despite the product's name professional use is
disallowed:

This product is licensed under the MPEG-4 Visual Patent Portfolio
License for the personal and noncommercial use of a consumer for
(i) encoding video in compliance with the MPEG-4 Visual Standard
("MPEG-4 Video") and/or (ii) decoding MPEG-4 video that was encoded
by a consumer engaged in a personal and non-commercial activity
and/or was obtained from a video provider licensed by MPEG LA
to provide MPEG-4 video. No license is granted or shall be implied
for any other use. Additional information including that relating
to promotional, internal and commercial uses and licensing may be
obtained from MPEG LA, LLC. See http://www.mpegla.com.

D. H.264/AVC Notice. To the extent that the Apple Software contains
AVC encoding and/or decoding functionality, commercial use of
H.264/AVC requires additional licensing and the following provision
applies: THE AVC FUNCTIONALITY IN THIS PRODUCT IS LICENSED HEREIN
ONLY FOR THE PERSONAL AND NON-COMMERCIAL USE OF A CONSUMER TO (i)
ENCODE VIDEO IN COMPLIANCE WITH THE AVC STANDARD ("AVC VIDEO&quo

AW: Intel QSV H.264 codec for AVFoundation and DirectShow

[Tiemo Hollmann TB]

Hi Richard,

thank you for your profund informations and helpful links.
I wasn't aware of this complex matter. I have to think about if I want to
let sleeping dogs lie.

Tiemo


-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] Im Auftrag
von Richard Gaskin
Gesendet: Montag, 4. Juli 2016 17:14
An: use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Betreff: Re: Intel QSV H.264 codec for AVFoundation and DirectShow

Tiemo Hollmann wrote:

> I am looking for the most standardized state of the art codec to get a 
> maximum of compatibility on both platforms, so I think H.264 is the 
> right choice.
>
> My special requirement is, that I have to step thru the video frame by 
> frame controlled by LC.
>
> My sorenson squeeze compressor offers 4 different H.264 codecs: "Intel 
> QSV H.264", "MainConcept H.264", "Sorenson MPEG-4", "x264"
>
> My LC tests showed me, that I need to set a keyframe every single 
> frame to be able to step thru the video framebased (at least with 
> DirectShow). This option do only the intel QSV and the x264 codec offer.
>
> The x264 codec is a opensource codec and as far as I understand it is 
> not preinstalled on any system and at least on my Mac a x264 video 
> can't be played (perhaps there is a chance to manually install it, 
> what I would like to avoid for my customers)
>
> So up to now it seems to me that only the intel QSV H.264 is left of 
> my choices. It should be supported from Windows Vista on and from OS X
10.8 on.
>
> Has anybody experiences in this field of codecs, other experiences or 
> tipps or would negate some of my conclusions?

Choosing a codec is a complex issues given the scope and variety of their
patent licensing.

My lay person's understanding is that x264 is available under GPL, so it's
useful for GPL-governed works but as you've noted isn't as widely available
across the many platforms we may choose to support.

H.264 is a good codec technically and has wide distribution, but AFAIK
remains mired in a patent pool so complex it needs an FAQ to try to explain
it:


This article describes some of the legal considerations with H.264 in lay
terms:


One of the open questions for us software developers is the case of
distributing commercial tools that use H.264.  Apple and Microsoft have
their own license arrangements with the MPEG-LA consortium for distributing
the codec with their respective OSes (perhaps easier for Apple since they're
a member of that consortium), but we may need to review the OS EULA to
determine the allowable scope of use for the codec in our own commercial
software products.

For example, here are relevant sections of the Final Cut Pro X EULA, which
make it explicitly clear that despite the product's name professional use is
disallowed:

This product is licensed under the MPEG-4 Visual Patent Portfolio
License for the personal and noncommercial use of a consumer for
(i) encoding video in compliance with the MPEG-4 Visual Standard
("MPEG-4 Video") and/or (ii) decoding MPEG-4 video that was encoded
by a consumer engaged in a personal and non-commercial activity
and/or was obtained from a video provider licensed by MPEG LA
to provide MPEG-4 video. No license is granted or shall be implied
for any other use. Additional information including that relating
to promotional, internal and commercial uses and licensing may be
obtained from MPEG LA, LLC. See http://www.mpegla.com.

D. H.264/AVC Notice. To the extent that the Apple Software contains
AVC encoding and/or decoding functionality, commercial use of
H.264/AVC requires additional licensing and the following provision
applies: THE AVC FUNCTIONALITY IN THIS PRODUCT IS LICENSED HEREIN
ONLY FOR THE PERSONAL AND NON-COMMERCIAL USE OF A CONSUMER TO (i)
ENCODE VIDEO IN COMPLIANCE WITH THE AVC STANDARD ("AVC VIDEO")
AND/OR (ii) DECODE AVC VIDEO THAT WAS ENCODED BY A CONSUMER ENGAGED
IN A PERSONAL AND NON-COMMERCIAL ACTIVITY AND/OR AVC VIDEO THAT WAS
OBTAINED FROM A VIDEO PROVIDER LICENSED TO PROVIDE AVC VIDEO.
INFORMATION REGARDING OTHER USES AND LICENSES MAY BE OBTAINED FROM
MPEG LA L.L.C. SEE HTTP://WWW.MPEGLA.COM.



Given the wide variety of software components that play a role in H.264
decoding, it may be helpful to refer to this table of expiration dates to
attempt to determine when the relevant H.264 patents will expire:


When in doubt, it may be best to communicate directly with the MPEG-LA
consortium to determine appropriate H.264 licensing requirements for your
commercial app that requires the codec.

It may be that the commercial-use restrictions apply only to encoding but
not decoding, so depending