Re: EU VAT changes small software businesses
On 27 Nov 2014, at 12:52, Ian Wood revl...@azurevision.co.uk wrote: Hi Dave, I forgot to post that link. :-( It doesn't help much because I'm a sole trader under the UK VAT threshold - VAT-registering the entire business for the sake of 1000€ in software turnover would wipe out about half my income. At the moment it looks like I'll either have to stop the software side completely or start posting the software on CDs instead of via digital download. I'm a *little* bit pissed off at the moment... Ian I can understand how pissed off you are. Wherever I read about it, it seems our worst thoughts are true. :-( For those in the UK, there is a petition at the link below to have the current exemption threshold still apply. https://www.change.org/p/vince-cable-mp-uphold-the-vat-exemption-threshold-for-businesses-supplying-digital-products ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
EU VAT changes small software businesses
I searched and couldn't find any discussion on the list, and this affects rather a lot of us... http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/taxation/vat/how_vat_works/telecom/index_en.htm From Jan 1st, business-to-customer software sales within the EU have to charge VAT based on the buyer's country rather than the seller's country, then paying that VAT to that country. A question to anyone on the list with a smaller business or selling as an individual - what plans do you have to cope with this? Ian ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: EU VAT changes small software businesses
Hi Ian, Really, I don't have the slightest idea. It is not realistic for me to pay VAT to each individual country. I guess I will do nothing and wait for a letter from the tax office. -- Best regards, Mark Schonewille Economy-x-Talk Consulting and Software Engineering Homepage: http://economy-x-talk.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/xtalkprogrammer KvK: 50277553 Installer Maker for LiveCode: http://qery.us/468 Buy my new book Programming LiveCode for the Real Beginner http://qery.us/3fi LiveCode on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/runrev/ On 11/27/2014 12:26, Ian Wood wrote: I searched and couldn't find any discussion on the list, and this affects rather a lot of us... http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/taxation/vat/how_vat_works/telecom/index_en.htm From Jan 1st, business-to-customer software sales within the EU have to charge VAT based on the buyer's country rather than the seller's country, then paying that VAT to that country. A question to anyone on the list with a smaller business or selling as an individual - what plans do you have to cope with this? Ian ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: EU VAT changes small software businesses
Ian, For UK businesses, the link below gives some information of one way to handle this. I'm not sure how useful this is. Thankfully, I'm not affected at the moment. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/vat-supplying-digital-services-and-the-vat-mini-one-stop-shop Cheers Dave On 27 Nov 2014, at 11:26, Ian Wood revl...@azurevision.co.uk wrote: I searched and couldn't find any discussion on the list, and this affects rather a lot of us... http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/taxation/vat/how_vat_works/telecom/index_en.htm From Jan 1st, business-to-customer software sales within the EU have to charge VAT based on the buyer's country rather than the seller's country, then paying that VAT to that country. A question to anyone on the list with a smaller business or selling as an individual - what plans do you have to cope with this? Ian ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: EU VAT changes small software businesses
Hi Dave, I forgot to post that link. :-( It doesn't help much because I'm a sole trader under the UK VAT threshold - VAT-registering the entire business for the sake of 1000€ in software turnover would wipe out about half my income. At the moment it looks like I'll either have to stop the software side completely or start posting the software on CDs instead of via digital download. I'm a *little* bit pissed off at the moment... Ian On 27 Nov 2014, at 12:08, Dave Cragg wrote: Ian, For UK businesses, the link below gives some information of one way to handle this. I'm not sure how useful this is. Thankfully, I'm not affected at the moment. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/vat-supplying-digital-services-and-the-vat-mini-one-stop-shop Cheers Dave On 27 Nov 2014, at 11:26, Ian Wood revl...@azurevision.co.uk wrote: I searched and couldn't find any discussion on the list, and this affects rather a lot of us... http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/taxation/vat/how_vat_works/telecom/index_en.htm From Jan 1st, business-to-customer software sales within the EU have to charge VAT based on the buyer's country rather than the seller's country, then paying that VAT to that country. A question to anyone on the list with a smaller business or selling as an individual - what plans do you have to cope with this? Ian ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
AW: EU VAT changes small software businesses
Our backoffice software for invoicing etc. can't manage that either on line level. Btw. the new european tax law only affects business with downloadable digital products (video, software, etc.) no physical shipped products. Tiemo -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] Im Auftrag von Ian Wood Gesendet: Donnerstag, 27. November 2014 12:27 An: How to use LiveCode Betreff: EU VAT changes small software businesses I searched and couldn't find any discussion on the list, and this affects rather a lot of us... http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/taxation/vat/how_vat_works/telecom/inde x_ en.htm From Jan 1st, business-to-customer software sales within the EU have to charge VAT based on the buyer's country rather than the seller's country, then paying that VAT to that country. A question to anyone on the list with a smaller business or selling as an individual - what plans do you have to cope with this? Ian ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: EU VAT changes small software businesses
Hi Ian, thanks for bringing this to my attention. Until today i was not aware that there will be changes in EU law. At the moment i use 2 different ways to sell my license keys (which i create with Jacques great tool Zygodact) 1. Paypal from within my website There i am charging 19% VAT. That´s the german tax rate. 2. Kagi. This works very good. What i really love is, that i can use my Zygodact license generation stack. Kagi sent me a Template stack in which i integrated the Zygodact key generation stack. So all is now working automatically. Kagi is charging the VAT according to the country of the buyer. They take some money for handling. And to be true, it´s a little more than i would pay for Paypal. But i can live with that, because i have no more work except waiting for my payments from them. With Paypal i have to add each purchase to my account software/system and i have to create the license manually. With Kagi i just have to add one payment every 3 month (i set it for quarterly payment in my kagi seller account) to my accounting software. So for me this means, i just have to stop offering PayPal as purchase option. Regards, Matthias Am 27.11.2014 um 12:26 schrieb Ian Wood revl...@azurevision.co.uk: I searched and couldn't find any discussion on the list, and this affects rather a lot of us... http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/taxation/vat/how_vat_works/telecom/index_en.htm From Jan 1st, business-to-customer software sales within the EU have to charge VAT based on the buyer's country rather than the seller's country, then paying that VAT to that country. A question to anyone on the list with a smaller business or selling as an individual - what plans do you have to cope with this? Ian ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: EU VAT changes small software businesses
So basically, every one of you EU software sellers is going to be fucked. It seems that using the MOSS is only applicable if you yourself have a VAT identification number. Furthermore it seems to be opt in and not mandatory. Nontheless, it seems to me that you then will need to do the Vat stuff by hand, especially if you do not have a registered VAT identification number yourself, and can't use the MOSS. What is the benefit of using the MOSS? They don't tell. The rules themselves are horribly vague and open to a ton of interpretation. In regards to software, an automatic electronic service with no human interaction does not apply, using an example of a price comparison service site. But selling antivirus software in an automated online shop is included in the examples where the new rule applies... where is the human interaction in that? The best parts are those that try to deal with moving sale-targets, or people who buy something trough a local wifi, then disconnect and go trough data roaming... Hilarious, if it weren't so sad, especially as a customer supplied billing address is NOT a valid proof of location! Even worse are the rules about re-sale chains, which makes determining whose countries tax in the chain of resellers to apply from hard to impossible. This is such a top down heavy and unwieldy legislature, it's a wonder it hasn't been sued on the basis of being against human rights :-P This Austrian Page is pretty interesting for trying to be readable, but instead is a prime example of legalese-obtuse: https://english.bmf.gv.at/taxation/moss.html#heading_FAQs_Mini_One_Stop_Shop_MOSS_ There's also the practical guide Almanach-sized PDF from the EU (love the chart on page 61): http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/resources/documents/taxation/vat/how_vat_works/telecom/explanatory_notes_2015_en.pdf VAT rules per country, so you could do it by hand I guess: http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/resources/documents/taxation/vat/how_vat_works/rates/vat_rates_en.pdf On 27 Nov 2014, at 14:23, Matthias Rebbe | M-R-D matthias_livecode_150...@m-r-d.de wrote: Hi Ian, thanks for bringing this to my attention. Until today i was not aware that there will be changes in EU law. At the moment i use 2 different ways to sell my license keys (which i create with Jacques great tool Zygodact) 1. Paypal from within my website There i am charging 19% VAT. That´s the german tax rate. 2. Kagi. This works very good. What i really love is, that i can use my Zygodact license generation stack. Kagi sent me a Template stack in which i integrated the Zygodact key generation stack. So all is now working automatically. Kagi is charging the VAT according to the country of the buyer. They take some money for handling. And to be true, it´s a little more than i would pay for Paypal. But i can live with that, because i have no more work except waiting for my payments from them. With Paypal i have to add each purchase to my account software/system and i have to create the license manually. With Kagi i just have to add one payment every 3 month (i set it for quarterly payment in my kagi seller account) to my accounting software. So for me this means, i just have to stop offering PayPal as purchase option. Regards, Matthias Am 27.11.2014 um 12:26 schrieb Ian Wood revl...@azurevision.co.uk: I searched and couldn't find any discussion on the list, and this affects rather a lot of us... http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/taxation/vat/how_vat_works/telecom/index_en.htm From Jan 1st, business-to-customer software sales within the EU have to charge VAT based on the buyer's country rather than the seller's country, then paying that VAT to that country. A question to anyone on the list with a smaller business or selling as an individual - what plans do you have to cope with this? Ian ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: EU VAT changes small software businesses
On 27 Nov 2014, at 14:25, Björnke von Gierke wrote: So basically, every one of you EU software sellers is going to be fucked. No, Anyone who sells in the EU and outside their own country, no matter *where* they're based in the world. :-( Ian ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: EU VAT changes small software businesses
The whole European ³dream² just sucks... That circus located in Brussel is only good for run-out politicians and their ³believers² who are eating our tax money earned by hard working people. By the way given away by our own stupid government esp. my Dutch government (642.M euro tax money). The European politicians have one goal: grasp as much as they can (e.g. This new tax rule) so that this circus can continue... I never talk about politics in forums but this time I could not control myself... :-( Erik On 27/11/14 16:37, Ian Wood revl...@azurevision.co.uk wrote: On 27 Nov 2014, at 14:25, Björnke von Gierke wrote: So basically, every one of you EU software sellers is going to be fucked. No, Anyone who sells in the EU and outside their own country, no matter *where* they're based in the world. :-( Ian ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: EU VAT changes small software businesses
On 27/11/14 14:08, Dave Cragg wrote: Ian, For UK businesses, the link below gives some information of one way to handle this. I'm not sure how useful this is. Thankfully, I'm not affected at the moment. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/vat-supplying-digital-services-and-the-vat-mini-one-stop-shop Cheers Dave My software floats in cyberspace and is a personal offering rather than linked to my company (which is a company based in Bulgaria solely for computer maintenance, educational software development and EFL teaching inwith the boundaries of Bulgaria): so, if somebody pays me for an item of software I produce (and the money goes into a PayPal account linked to a Scottish bank) the whole thing is extremely odd re who charges VAT and to whom, where? This, is like many things associated with the internet, a bit of a wobbly area, and one that greedy nation states are trying to muscle in on, but are going to find it hard to do. Richmond. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: EU VAT changes small software businesses
On 27/11/14 19:00, Erik Beugelaar wrote: The whole European ³dream² just sucks... That circus located in Brussel is only good for run-out politicians and their ³believers² who are eating our tax money earned by hard working people. By the way given away by our own stupid government esp. my Dutch government (642.M euro tax money). The European politicians have one goal: grasp as much as they can (e.g. This new tax rule) so that this circus can continue... I never talk about politics in forums but this time I could not control myself... :-( Erik That is probably why the 'UK' wants to get away from the EU with its fat bodies clogging up the corridors of ugly 70s buildings in Brussels. It would be 'nice' is England could see that the way Brussels behaves towards the 'UK' echos the way England behaves towards Scotland! What is the EU? Well, as far as I can see it has 2 reasons to exist: 1. So that people who cannot do anything productive can become EU bureaucrats and cream off the fat of those of us who do work. 2. To help semi-criminal countries such as Bulgaria (I know I live in Bulgaria) suck the hard-earned money of honest Germans and English people as EU grants (my god, you should just see how crook those grant proposals are). Of course the inevitable consequence of this shambles is that it tempts us hard workers into becoming tax dodgers . . . at which point things get into some sort of negative feedback downward spiral into Mafia-land. Well said Erik, echos my own very real cynicism. They can take their 'VAT' and stuff it up their fat European Union bottoms. Richmond. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: EU VAT changes small software businesses
LOL! Thanks Richmond for your mental support. Cheers, Erik On 27/11/14 19:27, Richmond richmondmathew...@gmail.com wrote: On 27/11/14 19:00, Erik Beugelaar wrote: The whole European ³dream² just sucks... That circus located in Brussel is only good for run-out politicians and their ³believers² who are eating our tax money earned by hard working people. By the way given away by our own stupid government esp. my Dutch government (642.M euro tax money). The European politicians have one goal: grasp as much as they can (e.g. This new tax rule) so that this circus can continue... I never talk about politics in forums but this time I could not control myself... :-( Erik That is probably why the 'UK' wants to get away from the EU with its fat bodies clogging up the corridors of ugly 70s buildings in Brussels. It would be 'nice' is England could see that the way Brussels behaves towards the 'UK' echos the way England behaves towards Scotland! What is the EU? Well, as far as I can see it has 2 reasons to exist: 1. So that people who cannot do anything productive can become EU bureaucrats and cream off the fat of those of us who do work. 2. To help semi-criminal countries such as Bulgaria (I know I live in Bulgaria) suck the hard-earned money of honest Germans and English people as EU grants (my god, you should just see how crook those grant proposals are). Of course the inevitable consequence of this shambles is that it tempts us hard workers into becoming tax dodgers . . . at which point things get into some sort of negative feedback downward spiral into Mafia-land. Well said Erik, echos my own very real cynicism. They can take their 'VAT' and stuff it up their fat European Union bottoms. Richmond. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: EU VAT changes small software businesses
On 27/11/14 21:18, Erik Beugelaar wrote: LOL! Thanks Richmond for your mental support. Cheers, Erik Almost all of my support is 'mental'. Richmond. On 27/11/14 19:27, Richmond richmondmathew...@gmail.com wrote: On 27/11/14 19:00, Erik Beugelaar wrote: The whole European ³dream² just sucks... That circus located in Brussel is only good for run-out politicians and their ³believers² who are eating our tax money earned by hard working people. By the way given away by our own stupid government esp. my Dutch government (642.M euro tax money). The European politicians have one goal: grasp as much as they can (e.g. This new tax rule) so that this circus can continue... I never talk about politics in forums but this time I could not control myself... :-( Erik That is probably why the 'UK' wants to get away from the EU with its fat bodies clogging up the corridors of ugly 70s buildings in Brussels. It would be 'nice' is England could see that the way Brussels behaves towards the 'UK' echos the way England behaves towards Scotland! What is the EU? Well, as far as I can see it has 2 reasons to exist: 1. So that people who cannot do anything productive can become EU bureaucrats and cream off the fat of those of us who do work. 2. To help semi-criminal countries such as Bulgaria (I know I live in Bulgaria) suck the hard-earned money of honest Germans and English people as EU grants (my god, you should just see how crook those grant proposals are). Of course the inevitable consequence of this shambles is that it tempts us hard workers into becoming tax dodgers . . . at which point things get into some sort of negative feedback downward spiral into Mafia-land. Well said Erik, echos my own very real cynicism. They can take their 'VAT' and stuff it up their fat European Union bottoms. Richmond. ___ ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
