Re: Programming LiveCode with LiveCode

[Jim Lambert]

Larry wrote:
>  it will be easier to deal with those differences by just developing apps 
> that run within a browser. Because don't both Android and iOS both run 
> browsers?

Absolutely. 
If your application’s features can be achieved as a web app running in a 
browser, that will be the most universal approach. 
No need for a native application at all.
But if your features are not supported in a browser then you’ve got to go 
native. 
With that comes variation within and across platforms.

It’s my prediction this variation will increase as mobile computing matures.
Apple, Google and even some handset manufacturers (Amazon Fire) are starting to 
offer a bunch of unique client features, closely coupled with backend 
solutions, and often only available on a specific platform or device.
Their goal is to create consumer and developer lock in.

Richard wrote:
> CloudKit is indeed nice, but so are the new Google Drive APIs:

Exactly! They are both nice - nice and different. Does the developer use one or 
both? Depends on your needs. Great to have the choice.
But such solutions are usually not meant to work cooperatively. Quite the 
opposite, they are meant as competitive differentiators for the companies that 
offer them.
We developers will need to deal with this increasing differentiation. 

That’s why I love LiveCode.
Widgets/Open Language will make LiveCode great for dealing with proprietary 
features and solutions - at least on the client, if not the backend.

JimL
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Re: Programming LiveCode with LiveCode

[Bob Sneidar]

That sounds like what Sun said when they released Java! And look what happened.

Bob S


On Oct 16, 2014, at 10:32 , Jim Lambert 
mailto:j...@netrin.com>> wrote:

I am of the opinion that all of the platform/device specific approach to
software is going the way of the dinosaur.

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Re: Programming LiveCode with LiveCode

[Richard Gaskin]

Jim Lambert wrote:

> Larry wrote:
>
>> I am of the opinion that all of the platform/device specific
>> approach to software is going the way of the dinosaur.
>
> That may be true with desktop software, but I respectfully disagree
> when it comes to mobile.
>
> There’s ever-growing fragmentation on Android, sometimes the
> developer must adapt to handset manufactures' & carriers'
> idiosyncratic variations of the OS/UI, form factors and unique
> features.

Sometimes perhaps, but how often?

Sure, journalists write all sorts of things to get page views (how many 
times do we see overblown stories of iOS malware only to find out it's 
only on jailbroken phones and only available through obscure third-party 
sites in China or Russia? ).


The latest of these was from Open Signal, complete with a jarringly 
colorful chart of the hardware diversity in the Android ecosystem:



But once we go beyond skimming the headline and glancing at the 
pictures, we find this in the report - something most of the lay press 
missed when they cited it:


   ...fragmentation benefits Android much more than it hurts it.
   Android is now the dominant mobile operating system and this
   is because of fragmentation, not in spite of it.

One man's "fragmentation" is another man's "diversity".

Among end-users, the only people I've ever heard complain about Android 
fragmentation own iPhones.


I've never heard any Android user lament, "Man, I wish I could get the 
cool app all my friends are using, but it just isn't available for my 
phone."


Larry's point is well supported by a review of the Top Apps lists at 
both stores - here's the Free and Paid lists for each:







With relatively few exceptions, they're almost the same lists.

I think it's a safe bet to suggest that a solid majority of devs making 
money in mobile are doing it on both platforms.



> Then there are Apple's new and tempting backend solutions, like
> CloudKit, which provide a seamless experience for both users and
> developers.
> But they are clearly iOS only solutions. Leading to developer lock in.

CloudKit is indeed nice, but so are the new Google Drive APIs:


With Open Language, we'll be able to wrap those even more easily than 
the majority of successful devs who implement both in their apps using C.



> IMO, the LiveCode is very nicely evolving to deal with this
> continuing differentiation of devices and OS ecosystems.

Fully agreed there.  As hardware and OS capabilities for both platforms 
continue to diversify, all we need to do is just what we've always done: 
 pick the lowest common OS version our app actually needs, and unless 
we absolutely need something specific to a given phone model or OS 
version we'll get more than 90% of each platform.


The only point where I differ from Larry is in his faith in the browser 
as a platform.  While it's technically quite feasible at least 
potentially (Firefox OS demonstrates this in spades), it's not in an OS 
vendor's interests to ship with a browser powerful enough to liberate 
developers from relying on vendor-specific APIs.


There are many categories of apps that can be well suited in a browser, 
bit it's rare to find one that performs as well or is a capable as its 
native counterpart.


Then again, maybe Larry's just ahead of his time:


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Programming LiveCode with LiveCode

[larry]

Hi Jim,
I'm not trying to argue (don't know enough.)  But what you say below (I put in 
italics) seems only to underscore what I believe: that it will be easier to 
deal with those differences by just developing apps that run within a browser. 
Because don't both Android and iOS both run browsers?
Please understand that, compared to most people on this list, I know almost 
nothing.  So I'm really just trying to understand all of this.
What is SEEMS like to me is that a developer can 1) use LC to deal "with this 
continuing differentiation of devices and OS ecosystems."  or 2) just develop 
for running in a browser and then no problem.

Please tell me if I'm over-simplifying that.
Thanks very much,
Larry


Jim wrote:
That may be true with desktop software, but I respectfully disagree when it 
comes to mobile.

There’s ever-growing fragmentation on Android, sometimes the developer must 
adapt to handset manufactures' & carriers' idiosyncratic variations of the 
OS/UI, form factors and unique features.
Then there are Apple's new and tempting backend solutions, like CloudKit, which 
provide a seamless experience for both users and developers. 
But they are clearly iOS only solutions. Leading to developer lock in.

IMO, the LiveCode is very nicely evolving to deal with this continuing 
differentiation of devices and OS ecosystems.

Jim Lambert

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Re: Programming LiveCode with LiveCode

[Jim Lambert]

Larry wrote:

> I am of the opinion that all of the platform/device specific approach to 
> software is going the way of the dinosaur. 

That may be true with desktop software, but I respectfully disagree when it 
comes to mobile.

There’s ever-growing fragmentation on Android, sometimes the developer must 
adapt to handset manufactures' & carriers' idiosyncratic variations of the 
OS/UI, form factors and unique features.
Then there are Apple's new and tempting backend solutions, like CloudKit, which 
provide a seamless experience for both users and developers. 
But they are clearly iOS only solutions. Leading to developer lock in.

IMO, the LiveCode is very nicely evolving to deal with this continuing 
differentiation of devices and OS ecosystems.

Jim Lambert

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Re: Programming LiveCode with LiveCode

[JB]

This is FANTASTIC!

John Balgenorth


On Oct 15, 2014, at 8:09 AM, Richard Gaskin  wrote:

> JB wrote:
> 
> > There are many powerful tools in foundation.  I am not
> > sure how difficult it would be but it would be a great if
> > instead of making a few really good changes to LiveCode
> > with foundation and GCD etc that they opened the doors
> > so anyone could access the tools in foundation from the
> > script level of LiveCode without writing an external.
> 
> They must have been using Jacque's time machine to start work on your request 
> before you posted it - that's what v8 is all about:
> 
> 
> -- 
> Richard Gaskin
> Fourth World Systems
> Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
> 
> ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
> 
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Re: Programming LiveCode with LiveCode

[J. Landman Gay]

On October 15, 2014 5:25:55 AM CDT, la...@significantplanet.org wrote:

>I'm working with a guy right now who is taking my "clunky" LC Windows 
>prototype and rewriting it so that it will run in any browser.  He
>tells me 
>that he can code it so that the program automatically detects the
>screen 
>size of the device and automatically adjusts the program accordingly. 
>He 
>also says that the user will be able to use the program offline and
>then 
>synch automatically back to their personal data as soon as they get
>back 
>online.  In other words, the app is available both online and offline.
>If LC developed the ability to do all that kind of stuff with all of
>LC's 
>other benefits, I would be extremely excited.


Be excited. LiveCode can already do all that without using a browser. 
-- 
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: Programming LiveCode with LiveCode

[Richard Gaskin]

JB wrote:

> There are many powerful tools in foundation.  I am not
> sure how difficult it would be but it would be a great if
> instead of making a few really good changes to LiveCode
> with foundation and GCD etc that they opened the doors
> so anyone could access the tools in foundation from the
> script level of LiveCode without writing an external.

They must have been using Jacque's time machine to start work on your 
request before you posted it - that's what v8 is all about:



--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Programming LiveCode with LiveCode

[larry]

Hi John,
I'm on board with all of that!
Even though the LC community is relatively small, I agree 100% with you that 
a lot of people would start writing shared code that would greatly improve 
the LC IDE.  AND if LC did that, it would start attracting a lot more 
programmers.
I am of the opinion that all of the platform/device specific approach to 
software is going the way of the dinosaur.  I believe the future of software 
will be browser based for several reasons.  Maybe I'm ignorant and maybe I'm 
wrong, but that's what I believe.  What I would personally LOVE to see 
happen with LC is true open source like you're talking about and then see LC 
become a LEADER in writing software that works in any standard browser.  No 
fuss, no muss.  Don't have to worry about OS or device.
I'm working with a guy right now who is taking my "clunky" LC Windows 
prototype and rewriting it so that it will run in any browser.  He tells me 
that he can code it so that the program automatically detects the screen 
size of the device and automatically adjusts the program accordingly.  He 
also says that the user will be able to use the program offline and then 
synch automatically back to their personal data as soon as they get back 
online.  In other words, the app is available both online and offline.
If LC developed the ability to do all that kind of stuff with all of LC's 
other benefits, I would be extremely excited.


Since I don't know very much about the pecking order/politics whatever at 
Rev, I hope you more experienced list people will push for your idea.

You have my vote!
Larry
P.S. As one example, I got a lot of kind help from this list in 
understanding how to build and implement a library stack.  However, TO ME 
(in my little brain) it still seems like a work-around.  How wonderful it 
would be if I could just write and name a function (or import someone else's 
function) and then use it right within any script just like I use lineoffset 
or whatever AND also go to the LC dictionary and not only see the example(s) 
the author wrote, but add my own notes and examples right into the 
dictionary.  Well, we can dream can't we?


- Original Message - 
From: "JB" 

To: "How to use LiveCode" 
Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2014 3:26 AM
Subject: Programming LiveCode with LiveCode



There have been hints that in the near future it will be
possible to program LiveCode with LiveCode like you
write scripts for your stacks.

Now that foundation has been added they have been
updating LiveCode and it sounds like they are using
Grand Central Dispatch for some of the graphics.

There are many powerful tools in foundation.  I am not
sure how difficult it would be but it would be a great if
instead of making a few really good changes to LiveCode
with foundation and GCD etc that they opened the doors
so anyone could access the tools in foundation from the
script level of LiveCode without writing an external.  If
this could be done you might even be able to allow scripts
to include the Swift programming language.

That would make LiveCode advance faster because a lot
of people would be writing code that would improve LiiveCode
and sharing it.  This would open the doors for amazing things
at a rapid pace with a true community involvement in writing
code for the changes.

John Balgenorth

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Programming LiveCode with LiveCode

[JB]

There have been hints that in the near future it will be
possible to program LiveCode with LiveCode like you
write scripts for your stacks.

Now that foundation has been added they have been
updating LiveCode and it sounds like they are using
Grand Central Dispatch for some of the graphics.

There are many powerful tools in foundation.  I am not
sure how difficult it would be but it would be a great if
instead of making a few really good changes to LiveCode
with foundation and GCD etc that they opened the doors
so anyone could access the tools in foundation from the
script level of LiveCode without writing an external.  If
this could be done you might even be able to allow scripts
to include the Swift programming language.

That would make LiveCode advance faster because a lot
of people would be writing code that would improve LiiveCode
and sharing it.  This would open the doors for amazing things
at a rapid pace with a true community involvement in writing
code for the changes.

John Balgenorth

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