Re: [OT] Want to help build a new HyperCard

[Peter Bogdanoff]

I’m working on a project related to this discussion.

It’s a specialized tool for music students in the form of a runtime application 
that has a tool palette and inspector—reproducing LiveCode’s IDE in a 
simplified, targeted manner.

So I’m very interested in understanding how LiveCode’s IDE does things.

If you look at the script of the LC IDE tool palette you’ll see scripts for 
dragging and dropping controls onto a stack.

edit the script of stack “revtools"

Peter


On May 20, 2016, at 12:41 PM, RM  wrote:

> Thanks to suggestions by Peter Bogdanoff much better indeed.
> 
> R.
> 
> On 20.05.2016 22:14, RM wrote:
>> Keeps on getting better.
>> 
>> I am now at the stage where I would be grateful for anyone who wishes to 
>> deploy a vaguely "Hypercardy" simplified UI
>> for Livecode 8.0 to try the thing out and give me feedback. Anyone who 
>> wishes is, of course, welcome to muck around with
>> the stack and improve things - just upload your improved version.
>> 
>> Richmond.
>> 
>> On 20.05.2016 18:18, RM wrote:
>>> "Open" button now works, "Import Image" button added [and it works!], 
>>> "Save" button still proving a problem.
>>> 
>>> R.
>>> 
>>> On 20.05.2016 10:22, RM wrote:
 Just uploaded a revision that works a whole lot better!
 
 On 19.05.2016 23:44, RM wrote:
> I'm on it: http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=25=27328
> 
> Richmond.
 
>>> 
>> 
> 
> 
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Re: [OT] Want to help build a new HyperCard

[RM]

Thanks to suggestions by Peter Bogdanoff much better indeed.

R.

On 20.05.2016 22:14, RM wrote:

Keeps on getting better.

I am now at the stage where I would be grateful for anyone who wishes 
to deploy a vaguely "Hypercardy" simplified UI
for Livecode 8.0 to try the thing out and give me feedback. Anyone who 
wishes is, of course, welcome to muck around with

the stack and improve things - just upload your improved version.

Richmond.

On 20.05.2016 18:18, RM wrote:
"Open" button now works, "Import Image" button added [and it works!], 
"Save" button still proving a problem.


R.

On 20.05.2016 10:22, RM wrote:

Just uploaded a revision that works a whole lot better!

On 19.05.2016 23:44, RM wrote:

I'm on it: http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=25=27328

Richmond.









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Re: [OT] Want to help build a new HyperCard

[RM]

Keeps on getting better.

I am now at the stage where I would be grateful for anyone who wishes to 
deploy a vaguely "Hypercardy" simplified UI
for Livecode 8.0 to try the thing out and give me feedback. Anyone who 
wishes is, of course, welcome to muck around with

the stack and improve things - just upload your improved version.

Richmond.

On 20.05.2016 18:18, RM wrote:
"Open" button now works, "Import Image" button added [and it works!], 
"Save" button still proving a problem.


R.

On 20.05.2016 10:22, RM wrote:

Just uploaded a revision that works a whole lot better!

On 19.05.2016 23:44, RM wrote:

I'm on it: http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=25=27328

Richmond.







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Re: [OT] Want to help build a new HyperCard

[RM]

Just uploaded a revision that works a whole lot better!

On 19.05.2016 23:44, RM wrote:

I'm on it: http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=25=27328

Richmond.



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Re: [OT] Want to help build a new HyperCard

[RM]

I'm on it: http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=25=27328

Richmond.

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Re: [OT] Want to help build a new HyperCard

[Mark Rauterkus]

Hi,

Wow. Richard's vision with a K-12 package as a subset of Community LiveCode
is exciting.

If it was made to run on the Raspberry Pi 3, then it might be even better.

Years ago, Hugh was working on an authoring system that I was enamored with
called FootNotes. That was mostly about ebook authoring, but much more, and
way ahead of its time. Clever. But wise business decision to suspend its
development too.

All together, the Killer App potential exists, IMHO. But, we've got a long
way to go in terms of doing the open-source dance among educators, yet, I
think.



--
Ta.

Mark Rauterkus
m...@rauterkus.com
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Re: [OT] Want to help build a new HyperCard

[Robert Brenstein]

There was actually a Hypercard-like front-end being built in Metacard 
at some point and was actually quite advanced as I recall. If I am 
not mistaken it was made open-source.


RObert

On 19.05.2016 at 16:07 Uhr +0300 Richmond apparently wrote:

That has already been discussed over in the forums.

They should not be worrying about building a new Hypercard;
they should just work out how to do a sort of Metacard" front-end 
for Livecode.


Mind you, the kids I teach Livecode to don't seem to have problems
with the LC 7.0 interface.

Richmond.



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Re: [OT] Want to help build a new HyperCard

[Richard Gaskin]

RM wrote:

> Over on the Yahoo group "Discussion Group for Hypercard" there is
> this topic.
>
> This seems to be a seasonal phenomenon, which never comes to much,
> and I cannot help wondering why it keeps coming up.

In those discussions and similar ones I've had with many HyperCard fans 
over the years, many of the views expressed tend to fall into two camps:


a) The interest boils down to a dynamic that I don't believe can be
   satisfied in the terms as given, for the reasons described here:


b) The interest can be very well satisfied, perhaps quite usefully,
   if we keep in mind the difference between a software development
   tool and an authoring environment.

I'm fond of this quote from Bill Appleton, SuperCard's inventor, because 
I believe it applies to LiveCode at least as well:


   HyperCard is a multimedia authoring environment.  SuperCard is
   a tool you can use to build multimedia authoring environments.

For example, the concept of User Levels can be very useful in an 
authoring environment, providing constraining guidance in a very broad 
form of progressive disclosure, introducing scopes of capabilities in 
measured stages rather than having everything available all at once. 
But in a development tool the only truly useful User Level is 5, 
"Scripting", because scripters script.


The interesting thing about both camps listed above is what they have in 
common:


With very few exceptions (and none in the recent thread on the HC list), 
what's asked for is nothing LiveCode doesn't already provide, but 
instead just a carefully curated subset of LiveCode's capabilities, one 
which employs some form of progressive disclosure to keep the immediate 
environment as simple and inviting as possible.



Given the breadth of projects LiveCode is used on, I think it's fully 
appropriate for the core dev team to continue focusing on an IDE aimed 
at professional-level software development.


But I do believe there may be value in exploring alternative IDEs, 
perhaps for specialized workflows more akin to authoring.


One of these that stands out as perhaps especially useful might be an 
IDE tailored specifically for the K-12 audience.  Given the very 
specialized needs of that audience I don't believe the core dev team has 
either the time or pedagogical expertise to craft something like that. 
But with so many members of our community successfully using LiveCode in 
K-12, the community seems ideally suited for making it.


Consider this:

1. Make a stack with this script:

   on preOpenStack
  close stack "revTools"
  hide stack "revMenubar"
   end preOpenStack

2. Put it in your Plugins folder, and set it to run when LC launches.

3. Re-launch LC.

RESULT: Tabula rasa, a blank slate in which your stack is the only 
visible UI element.  You have the full capabilities of the LC engine 
available, and any IDE tools you might need are also available.  But you 
now have complete control over the user experience, and how those tools 
are accessed.  And perhaps they needn't be accessed at all:  as the 
plugin grows it can replace IDE components with more kid-friendly 
versions, and over time it becomes an ever-simpler K-12-focused 
experience.


And it's no more difficult to get started than those three steps above.

True, what happens beyond those three steps is indeed a lot of work. 
It's not easy writing an IDE, and arguably more difficult to make a 
simpler one tailored for kids than one aimed at pro devs.


But it's certainly much easier than doing all that plus making an 
entirely new engine from scratch, which seems to be why the various 
seasonal threads in the HC start off with much enthusiasm but ultimately 
never ship as finished works.


LiveCode makes a great foundation on which one can build a nearly 
limitless range of authoring environments.  All the features needed are 
available in the engine today, for seven platforms.


And LiveCode Community Edition makes an excellent choice for building 
one aimed at K-12, to promote free and open use and sharing for all 
schools everywhere in the world.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com


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Re: [OT] Want to help build a new HyperCard

[Richmond]

That has already been discussed over in the forums.

They should not be worrying about building a new Hypercard;
they should just work out how to do a sort of Metacard" front-end for 
Livecode.


Mind you, the kids I teach Livecode to don't seem to have problems
with the LC 7.0 interface.

Richmond.

On 19/05/16 15:29, Colin Holgate wrote:

As you will have read, the people involved find the LiveCode UI to be more 
complicated than it needs to be for most users. If LiveCode had ‘set the 
userlevel to 1’, etc, they would be more happy.



On May 19, 2016, at 6:08 AM, RM  wrote:

Over on the Yahoo group "Discussion Group for Hypercard" there is this topic.

This seems to be a seasonal phenomenon, which never comes to much, and I cannot
help wondering why it keeps coming up.

One thing that does cross my mind is that maybe (?) some of these people 
haven't heard about
Livecode. But that does seem a bit odd.

"New" Hypercard has been "done" at least twice: Supercard and Metacard-LiveCode.

As Livecode is now available in a Community (as is 'free') version I cannot see 
any possible reason
why someone might wish to create Hypercard; especially as Livecode contains a 
super-set of the features offered
by Hypercard (I sometimes think of Hypercard as 5% Livecode).

I think that 'We' (that's another word that can be discussed at length) ought 
to be thumping our
tubs a lot more!

Richmond.

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Re: [OT] Want to help build a new HyperCard

[Colin Holgate]

As you will have read, the people involved find the LiveCode UI to be more 
complicated than it needs to be for most users. If LiveCode had ‘set the 
userlevel to 1’, etc, they would be more happy.


> On May 19, 2016, at 6:08 AM, RM  wrote:
> 
> Over on the Yahoo group "Discussion Group for Hypercard" there is this topic.
> 
> This seems to be a seasonal phenomenon, which never comes to much, and I 
> cannot
> help wondering why it keeps coming up.
> 
> One thing that does cross my mind is that maybe (?) some of these people 
> haven't heard about
> Livecode. But that does seem a bit odd.
> 
> "New" Hypercard has been "done" at least twice: Supercard and 
> Metacard-LiveCode.
> 
> As Livecode is now available in a Community (as is 'free') version I cannot 
> see any possible reason
> why someone might wish to create Hypercard; especially as Livecode contains a 
> super-set of the features offered
> by Hypercard (I sometimes think of Hypercard as 5% Livecode).
> 
> I think that 'We' (that's another word that can be discussed at length) ought 
> to be thumping our
> tubs a lot more!
> 
> Richmond.
> 
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