Re: [off] Do me a solid
Friends, I have been silent for a while but I am now getting more active here again. I've recently moved to London so if people want to go to a Pub or organize an LC meetup, I am game. Now back to business, I am an active member of the decentralized web movement and more visible through my efforts on the Secure Scuttlebutt[1] community and the Mozilla experiment called Libdweb[2]. I was at the Decentralized Web Summit this year where Tim Berners-Lee was present promoting Solid. You can see all recorded sessions from the event[3] or jump straight to his video about solid[4]. BELOW YOU WILL READ SOME STRONG PERSONAL OPINIONS: In my humble opinion the dweb and dapp movement can be categorized into two large camps and most solutions/communities tend to fall under one or another, even though some span both camps. One camp is the "solution with economic incentives" and in this category we place all the cryptocurrency backed stuff, all those little blockchains with tokens, ICOs, DAGs, cryptolattice structure marvels that no-one uses but everyone hopes to get rich with. This is where the money is and most of the stuff is vaporware made to promote ICOs, foster speculation and make someone (who is usually not you) rich. Still, there is good stuff in here, bitcoin is pretty nice as a "currency", dogecoin is fun to play with but no one will get rich, ethereum has a nice momentum. The other much less visible camp, which is the one I am mostly interested in, is the "solution without economic incentive" where people are building stuff that not necessarily relies on blockchains or tokens or any form of currency. It is usually peer-to-peer stuff that, by design, prevents censorship, tracking and in some cases makes really hard to monetize anything. In this camp you'll find Secure Scuttlebutt, IPFS, Dat, Beaker Browser (which is DAT). Some solutions span both camps such as the offerings by protocol labs, where IPFS, libp2p, etc fall into the second camp but their filecoin fall into the first one, and that is OK. Or holochain which provides a platform for you to build your on decentralized stuff even with coins and tokens. During one of the online conferences we had for LiveCode Global this year, I presented a TOY version of a Scuttlebutt-like protocol that allowed people to build decentralized desktop apps with LiveCode. If the HQ accept, they could share this video with all the community, it gives a nice little toy intro to the concepts. Anyway, there is a ton of stuff happening in this space, solid is not the only game in town. Best Andre [1]: https://scuttlebutt.nz [2]: https://github.com/mozilla/libdweb [3]: https://decentralizedweb.net/videos/ [4]: https://decentralizedweb.net/videos/talk-solid-empowering-people-through-choice/ On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 12:24 AM Kay C Lan via use-livecode < use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote: > On Sun, Sep 30, 2018 at 10:11 AM Mark Wieder via use-livecode > wrote: > > > > > > Is this the same Tim Berners-Lee who, in his capacity as Director of the > > World Wide Web Consortium, a year ago overruled all objections and added > > standardized DRM to the open web standards? Sided with trillions of > > dollars worth of corporate muscle against accessibility groups, security > > experts, browser startups, public interest groups, human rights groups, > > archivists, research institutions, etc? > > > > Pass. > Unfortunately I think the Free Software Foundation backed the wrong > horse. Whilst it's mission to promote computer user freedom is > commendable, doing it via OSS in a world where the Internet is driven > by trillions of dollars, web search engines are driven by billions of > dollars and both of these are influenced by media giants and > governments with political agendas almost make the fact that you have > OSS on your device irrelevant. I think individual freedom, let alone > computer user freedom, would better be served if, like linux, there > were a couple of versions of the WWW, some of which were truly Open > Source. Although I use DuckDuckGo in deference to Google, I think > we'd all be better off with a few viable OS Web Search Engines - the > current ones are too small. > > I think in the future we'll look back and realise that having a purely > open Search Engine and purely open Internet will be far more important > to us than whether the code of the app we are using, to take advantage > of what is available across the internet, is open or closed. > > ___ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- http://www.andregarzia.com -- All We Do Is Code. http://fon.nu -- minimalist url shortening service. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe,
Re: [off] Do me a solid
On Sun, Sep 30, 2018 at 10:11 AM Mark Wieder via use-livecode wrote: > > > Is this the same Tim Berners-Lee who, in his capacity as Director of the > World Wide Web Consortium, a year ago overruled all objections and added > standardized DRM to the open web standards? Sided with trillions of > dollars worth of corporate muscle against accessibility groups, security > experts, browser startups, public interest groups, human rights groups, > archivists, research institutions, etc? > > Pass. Unfortunately I think the Free Software Foundation backed the wrong horse. Whilst it's mission to promote computer user freedom is commendable, doing it via OSS in a world where the Internet is driven by trillions of dollars, web search engines are driven by billions of dollars and both of these are influenced by media giants and governments with political agendas almost make the fact that you have OSS on your device irrelevant. I think individual freedom, let alone computer user freedom, would better be served if, like linux, there were a couple of versions of the WWW, some of which were truly Open Source. Although I use DuckDuckGo in deference to Google, I think we'd all be better off with a few viable OS Web Search Engines - the current ones are too small. I think in the future we'll look back and realise that having a purely open Search Engine and purely open Internet will be far more important to us than whether the code of the app we are using, to take advantage of what is available across the internet, is open or closed. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
RE: [off] Do me a solid
As the philosopher Pete Townshend once said: Meet the new boss Same as the old boss Ralph DiMola IT Director Evergreen Information Services rdim...@evergreeninfo.net -Original Message- From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] On Behalf Of Bob Sneidar via use-livecode Sent: Monday, October 01, 2018 10:44 AM To: How to use LiveCode Cc: Bob Sneidar Subject: Re: [off] Do me a solid Yeah, seems like the rebels just become the new dictator, like in that old Twilight Zone episode. Bob S > On Sep 29, 2018, at 16:20 , Stephen Barncard via use-livecode wrote: > > still they are depending on AWS? Amazon is "the man" now... > -- > Stephen Barncard - Sebastopol Ca. USA - ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [off] Do me a solid
Yeah, seems like the rebels just become the new dictator, like in that old Twilight Zone episode. Bob S > On Sep 29, 2018, at 16:20 , Stephen Barncard via use-livecode > wrote: > > still they are depending on AWS? Amazon is "the man" now... > -- > Stephen Barncard - Sebastopol Ca. USA - ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [off] Do me a solid
I wonder who has the monopoly on what color wires go where in bomb making? ;-) Bob S > On Sep 29, 2018, at 12:00 , Richmond via use-livecode > wrote: > > Decentralizing control from any form of monopoly has always got to be good. > > However, the monopolists have probably got the internet so firmly "by the > prawns" I wonder > if the man's plan will work. > > Richmond. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [off] Do me a solid
On 09/29/2018 03:37 PM, John McKenzie via use-livecode wrote: control and we have all those things now. People choose to use Faceook, ...but probably only in the library the Unseen University. Heh. -- Mark Wieder ahsoftw...@gmail.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [off] Do me a solid
On 09/29/2018 05:14 PM, John McKenzie via use-livecode wrote: Mark, I am glad I am not the only one who remembers Lee selling us out. I do not put more validity or faith into the project because of him. I just mentioned him because he was doing it. Still, mostly I want to understand it. What really is it? The article just says it is to create something we have. Dunno yet. The article and the others just like it have a bunch of startup pr hype and not much else. The Solid platform is up and the api should be online Real Soon Now. I for one say you are right to mention the DRM thing. We cannot forget. To put it in some perspective, DRM itself isn't the problem, it's more the nuances involved, especially as pertains to section 1201 of the DMCA. Well, yes, DRM does remove all the user's rights in copyright, letting corporations decide what your legal rights are. But legit things people want to do with web technology are off limits, even talking about defects in DRM that expose users to privacy breaches. Case in point: some years ago I bought a DVD, stuck it in the DVD player connected to the aux input of my TV, and found that I couldn't view it because the TV had integrated anti-piracy software. The TV was a combo TV and VCR, so obviously I was going to copy the DVD to videocassette (remember this was some years ago) and the system was helpfully going to stop me. The only way I could view the DVD was to rip it to a digital file and watch it on the computer. Forced into piracy even though I had purchased all the equipment and content. (OK - according the modern EULAs I don't actually own anything, but that's a different subject. But related.) from Cory Doctorow's report from last year: EFF proposed a simple compromise: extend the W3C's existing membership agreement (whose patent rules make DRM possible in the first place) so that W3C members couldn't sue people for bypassing DRM unless there was also some kind of copyright violation or other illegal act in the mix. The DRM advocates at W3C rejected this. After a perfunctory discussion, they walked away from the negotiations and proceeded to ignore anyone at W3C or on the web who disliked the idea of corporations getting to boss around librarians, accessibility workers, security researchers and innovators. https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/07/amid-unprecedented-controversy-w3c-greenlights-drm-web -- Mark Wieder ahsoftw...@gmail.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [off] Do me a solid
Mark, I am glad I am not the only one who remembers Lee selling us out. I do not put more validity or faith into the project because of him. I just mentioned him because he was doing it. Still, mostly I want to understand it. What really is it? The article just says it is to create something we have. I for one say you are right to mention the DRM thing. We cannot forget. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [off] Do me a solid
Is this the same Tim Berners-Lee who, in his capacity as Director of the World Wide Web Consortium, a year ago overruled all objections and added standardized DRM to the open web standards? Sided with trillions of dollars worth of corporate muscle against accessibility groups, security experts, browser startups, public interest groups, human rights groups, archivists, research institutions, etc? Pass. -- Mark Wieder ahsoftw...@gmail.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [off] Do me a solid
Tom, thanks. Was not aware of IPFS. Looks interesting. When I have more time I must read about it in detail. Have not checked on Xanadu in a while. Little faith it will be further along than last time I checked considering it was started before I was born and how old I am. I do applaud it though and it was very pioneering. This IPFS is very intriguing. Very. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [off] Do me a solid
still they are depending on AWS? Amazon is "the man" now... -- Stephen Barncard - Sebastopol Ca. USA - mixstream.org On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 3:57 PM Tom Glod via use-livecode < use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote: > 4 wordsIPFS. :D > > thats the future of a decentralized web :) IPFS is going to take off in the > next 2 years like a bat out of hell, as more and more decentralized > applications are developed on top of it and proven to work at scale. > TBLee's tech will have to at least match IPFS or be way behind from day 1. > > On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 6:37 PM John McKenzie via use-livecode < > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > > Mike, thanks for the link to the Berners-Lee article. Could somebody > > please explain to me what he is doing as described by the article > > though? > > > > It says he is taking something decentralized like the world wide web > > and is making it decentralized. I can do that. There I just did it. > > Anyone can host a web server now. They talk about data and storage > > control and we have all those things now. People choose to use Faceook, > > not Diaspora, etc, they choose to use Google Drive not a local hard > > drive, etc. We already have the technology and finished applications to > > do everything mentioned in the article. > > > > I do not meant to sound critical or mean I just honestly do not > > understand the point of the article and would like to know. Or am I just > > overthinking it and the only point is Berners-Lee has a better way to > > program these things? > > > > > > ___ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > ___ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [off] Do me a solid
4 wordsIPFS. :D thats the future of a decentralized web :) IPFS is going to take off in the next 2 years like a bat out of hell, as more and more decentralized applications are developed on top of it and proven to work at scale. TBLee's tech will have to at least match IPFS or be way behind from day 1. On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 6:37 PM John McKenzie via use-livecode < use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > Mike, thanks for the link to the Berners-Lee article. Could somebody > please explain to me what he is doing as described by the article > though? > > It says he is taking something decentralized like the world wide web > and is making it decentralized. I can do that. There I just did it. > Anyone can host a web server now. They talk about data and storage > control and we have all those things now. People choose to use Faceook, > not Diaspora, etc, they choose to use Google Drive not a local hard > drive, etc. We already have the technology and finished applications to > do everything mentioned in the article. > > I do not meant to sound critical or mean I just honestly do not > understand the point of the article and would like to know. Or am I just > overthinking it and the only point is Berners-Lee has a better way to > program these things? > > > ___ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [off] Do me a solid
Mike, thanks for the link to the Berners-Lee article. Could somebody please explain to me what he is doing as described by the article though? It says he is taking something decentralized like the world wide web and is making it decentralized. I can do that. There I just did it. Anyone can host a web server now. They talk about data and storage control and we have all those things now. People choose to use Faceook, not Diaspora, etc, they choose to use Google Drive not a local hard drive, etc. We already have the technology and finished applications to do everything mentioned in the article. I do not meant to sound critical or mean I just honestly do not understand the point of the article and would like to know. Or am I just overthinking it and the only point is Berners-Lee has a better way to program these things? ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [off] Do me a solid
Decentralizing control from any form of monopoly has always got to be good. However, the monopolists have probably got the internet so firmly "by the prawns" I wonder if the man's plan will work. Richmond. On 29.09.2018 19:38, Mike Kerner via use-livecode wrote: https://www.fastcompany.com/90243936/exclusive-tim-berners-lee-tells-us-his-radical-new-plan-to-upend-the-world-wide-web ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [off] Do me a solid
Reminds me of project Xanadu: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Xanadu. On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 9:38 AM Mike Kerner via use-livecode < use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > https://www.fastcompany.com/90243936/exclusive-tim-berners-lee-tells-us-his-radical-new-plan-to-upend-the-world-wide-web > -- > On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth > On the second day, God created the oceans. > On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, >and did a little diving. > And God said, "This is good." > ___ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [off] Do me a solid
Mike, Very interesting. However, I suspect that anything is hackable, some more than others, but I will read more and would be interested in how the structure keeps user data private. Bill William Prothero http://es.earthednet.org > On Sep 29, 2018, at 9:38 AM, Mike Kerner via use-livecode > wrote: > > https://www.fastcompany.com/90243936/exclusive-tim-berners-lee-tells-us-his-radical-new-plan-to-upend-the-world-wide-web > -- > On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth > On the second day, God created the oceans. > On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, > and did a little diving. > And God said, "This is good." > ___ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription > preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
