Re: ANN and OT: Calling All SETI Enthusiasts
I see you never actually read any of my posts. No worries. I get that a lot. Bob On Mar 28, 2012, at 7:48 PM, Mick Collins wrote: Argue for your limitations and, indeed, they are yours. What obstacles, Bob? You show me true obstacles, not just bullshit, and I'll show you how they might be overcome. Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 11:53:08 -0700 From: Bob Sneidar b...@twft.com To: How to use LiveCode use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: ANN and OT: Calling All SETI Enthusiasts Message-ID: 8b8ff4b1-1554-4813-9f68-47b55ee83...@twft.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Rick Santorum is a Livecode programmer?? heh heh. But seriously, try actually coming up with some suggestions at least about how to overcome the obstacles. Otherwise, I declare your cry of bullshit to be the true bullshit that all who have no answers cry when they are confronted with the difficulties of their assertions. Bob On Mar 28, 2012, at 11:21 AM, Mick Collins wrote: Bob's logistics is, as Rick Santorum said day before yesterday, bullshlt. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: ANN and OT: Calling All SETI Enthusiasts
Sigh . . . if only a mere 10% of this discussion could have been relevant to the technical merits of my SETIproblem stack. I feel like my thread has been hijacked! Thanks and cheers, Roger ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: ANN and OT: Calling All SETI Enthusiasts
Well, Roger, since you hijacked your own thread ... So 20th century! Speculation may not be scientific, but neither is this is the world (as opposed to this is the world as scientists presently know it). See the difference; it is apparently a point of great confusion on this thread (and others). Bob's logistics is, as Rick Santorum said day before yesterday, bullshlt. It assumes logistics based on current pre-speculation knowledge, but is inapplicable in the context of what may or may not happen in the future. Hypothesis, Theory and Law are fine, great even, but they also have very limited application in discussing what may be the case in the future. That said, thank you for your stack and thank you, Richard for your post. Be well all, - Mick Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 09:51:45 -0600 From: Roger Guay i...@mac.com To: use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: use-livecode Digest, Vol 102, Issue 56 Message-ID: f4abe6cc-d6a3-4258-8956-25b7172fb...@mac.com Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Thanks for your great post, Richard. Just one clarification if I may. Hypothesis, Theory and Law have different connotations in science. A good explanation is found at: http://wilstar.com/theories.htm Cheers, Roger On Mar 27, 2012, at 5:43 PM, use-livecode-requ...@lists.runrev.com wrote: Message: 12 Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 12:22:20 -0700 From: Richard Gaskin ambassa...@fourthworld.com To: use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: ANN and OT: Calling All SETI Enthusiasts Message-ID: 4f72136c.6060...@fourthworld.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Snip . . . . snip And Einstein's Theory is just that, a theory. It's not yet a law, and for good reason. Every few years we hear from another quantum physicist suggesting that they may be on the edge of something that disproves it. Wouldn't be the first time a new discovery completed shattered our understanding of how things work. snip . . . snip -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Systems Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: ANN and OT: Calling All SETI Enthusiasts
Roger and RIchard, Two more distinctions: 1) Theories that supersede vs. theories that overturn The General theory of relativity superseded Newton's theory of gravity and QM superseded Newtonian dynamics. In each case, the second is the classical limit of the first. On the other hand, Newtonian theory of gravity overturned Aristotelian theory of gravity. 2) Theories of such weight, of such abundance and breadth of confirmation, vs. Theories of the lesser weight Regarding this distinction, the current rhubarb over experimental evidence purporting to find neutrinos that traveled at a speed greater than light, some die hard theoretical physicists have recalled Sir Arthur Eddington (renowned British astrophysicist) facetiously saying Experiments should not be believed until they have been confirmed by theory. The neutrino played a similar roll many years ago. In a certain collision of elementary particle the evidence of the tracks in the cloud chamber were such that energy was not conserved in the reaction. Rather than admit a violation of such an entrenched fundamental physical law, it was assumed that there was some, as yet unknown, particle that was invisible in the cloud chamber that had carried away the missing energy. Later that particle was found; it was the neutrino. Jim Message: 21 Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 09:51:45 -0600 From: Roger Guay i...@mac.com To: use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: use-livecode Digest, Vol 102, Issue 56 Message-ID: f4abe6cc-d6a3-4258-8956-25b7172fb...@mac.com Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Thanks for your great post, Richard. Just one clarification if I may. Hypothesis, Theory and Law have different connotations in science. A good explanation is found at: http://wilstar.com/theories.htm Cheers, Roger On Mar 27, 2012, at 5:43 PM, use-livecode-requ...@lists.runrev.com wrote: Message: 12 Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 12:22:20 -0700 From: Richard Gaskin ambassa...@fourthworld.com To: use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: ANN and OT: Calling All SETI Enthusiasts Message-ID: 4f72136c.6060...@fourthworld.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Snip . . . . snip And Einstein's Theory is just that, a theory. It's not yet a law, and for good reason. Every few years we hear from another quantum physicist suggesting that they may be on the edge of something that disproves it. Wouldn't be the first time a new discovery completed shattered our understanding of how things work. snip . . . snip -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Systems Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: ANN and OT: Calling All SETI Enthusiasts
A bit further off topic... I used to donate my spare clock cycles to seti at home. Fun at first. I stopped for two reasons. One -- If anyone finds ET's phone number, it will cause global pandemonium. The human race isn't ready for this discovery. Two -- If I find ET's phone number and I become known as the discoverer, it's very likely that some misguided person will assassinate me. Cheers, Tim On Mar 27, 2012, at 4:06 PM, Bob Sneidar wrote: Good point Richard. I guess in my mind any species would be faced with the same kind of problems, but it gets the point across better if I put humans in the alien's shoes for a bit. :-) (That is another good point: Do aliens wear shoes?) Bob On Mar 27, 2012, at 3:46 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote: ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: ANN and OT: Calling All SETI Enthusiasts
Rick Santorum is a Livecode programmer?? heh heh. But seriously, try actually coming up with some suggestions at least about how to overcome the obstacles. Otherwise, I declare your cry of bullshit to be the true bullshit that all who have no answers cry when they are confronted with the difficulties of their assertions. Bob On Mar 28, 2012, at 11:21 AM, Mick Collins wrote: Bob's logistics is, as Rick Santorum said day before yesterday, bullshlt. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: ANN and OT: Calling All SETI Enthusiasts
Argue for your limitations and, indeed, they are yours. What obstacles, Bob? You show me true obstacles, not just bullshit, and I'll show you how they might be overcome. Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 11:53:08 -0700 From: Bob Sneidar b...@twft.com To: How to use LiveCode use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: ANN and OT: Calling All SETI Enthusiasts Message-ID: 8b8ff4b1-1554-4813-9f68-47b55ee83...@twft.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Rick Santorum is a Livecode programmer?? heh heh. But seriously, try actually coming up with some suggestions at least about how to overcome the obstacles. Otherwise, I declare your cry of bullshit to be the true bullshit that all who have no answers cry when they are confronted with the difficulties of their assertions. Bob On Mar 28, 2012, at 11:21 AM, Mick Collins wrote: Bob's logistics is, as Rick Santorum said day before yesterday, bullshlt. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: ANN and OT: Calling All SETI Enthusiasts
Talking about presumptuous, Bob, well here's a good quotation to keep in mind. If we all worked on the assumption that what is accepted as true is really true, there would be little hope of advance. -- Orville Wright Message: 12 Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 11:28:29 -0700 From: Bob Sneidar b...@twft.com To: How to use LiveCode use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: ANN and OT: Calling All SETI Enthusiasts Message-ID: 2b937175-9284-4c54-9232-ac35c1bdd...@twft.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii The assumptions in discussions like these are extremely numerous, approaching the very number of stars themselves. Why for instance, should we suppose that any alien life form is similar to us? What if an intelligent life form was aquatic, and lived on a planet where the atmosphere was deadly to them? What possible motive could they have to develop radio technology in the first place, and who can assume that our radio technology would even work in their atmosphere? What if the magnetic flux field of their planet was so strong, or the chemical makeup so different that radio transmissions of our kind would never even penetrate it, never mind be something they would deploy? What if their great superior reasoning led them to conclude that the time, efforts and resources to even attempt to travel at or near light speeds, or else attempt to bend space-time was so vast, and the probability of failure to find a race like enough to themselves so great, and the time dilation that would occur so devastating to any hope of communicating or traveling back to where they came from, that it became a common child's joke amongst the great races of the universe without them even knowing it between them? So many what if's, so little time-space. Our minds are so small that they cannot comprehend how many factors go into making our planet exactly the planet it is. There are so many balances, both terrestrial and extra-terrestrial, which if unbalanced by so much as 5% or less would render human life on this planet absolutely impossible. And we hope to find a planet so like ours, and then hope that life on that planet has evolved (the greatest begging of a question that ever there was) so like us as to allow any communication at all? This discussion can happen at all because of the human mind's inability to focus on and balance very many things at one time and measure a thesis against all other things that could weigh upon it. We simply do not possess the wisdom and mental faculty to treat such a subject. No, my friends, I think all conversation along these lines is so incredibly presumptuous, it is staggering when you really begin to think of everything we take as a given or gloss over when discussing such things. Sorry all you Star Trek fans, and anyone else I have likely offended. I love science fiction as much as the next person, but I think any race of beings wise enough to comprehend the real logistics of space travel or communication across such great distances would conclude right away that it was a total waste of their limited resources, better spent on improving their own state of affairs. (Let the flames begin!;-) Bob ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: ANN and OT: Calling All SETI Enthusiasts
Orville was probably talking about people who were saying at the time that it was impossible for humans to take flight. That is not a statement about what is true, it is a statement about what is possible. It's sobering to think someone so smart as Orville Wright could get the two confused. Is it theoretically possible to travel to another planet? Sure! Is it practically possible? Not a chance. The difference between what is true and what is possible. Again, it is a matter of logistics. To experiment and build a craft that can float on air here on terra firma is one thing. To build a craft that can travel to another planet we cannot see and study from here over the vast period of time it would take to get there, not to mention the time dilation that would occur, in one lifetime, and be able to communicate back to say we succeeded, while the people who sent us are still alive, well, that is quite another. I can empty my pool with a garden hose, but I'd be a fool to try to empty lake Erie. I can write a program to keep track of my computer assets. I cannot make a computer to calculate the answer to life, the Universe, Everything! :-) Bob On Mar 27, 2012, at 4:38 AM, Mick Collins wrote: Talking about presumptuous, Bob, well here's a good quotation to keep in mind. If we all worked on the assumption that what is accepted as true is really true, there would be little hope of advance. -- Orville Wright Message: 12 Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 11:28:29 -0700 From: Bob Sneidar b...@twft.com To: How to use LiveCode use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: ANN and OT: Calling All SETI Enthusiasts Message-ID: 2b937175-9284-4c54-9232-ac35c1bdd...@twft.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii The assumptions in discussions like these are extremely numerous, approaching the very number of stars themselves. Why for instance, should we suppose that any alien life form is similar to us? What if an intelligent life form was aquatic, and lived on a planet where the atmosphere was deadly to them? What possible motive could they have to develop radio technology in the first place, and who can assume that our radio technology would even work in their atmosphere? What if the magnetic flux field of their planet was so strong, or the chemical makeup so different that radio transmissions of our kind would never even penetrate it, never mind be something they would deploy? What if their great superior reasoning led them to conclude that the time, efforts and resources to even attempt to travel at or near light speeds, or else attempt to bend space-time was so vast, and the probability of failure to find a race like enough to themselves so great, and the time dilation that would occur so devastating to any hope of communicating or traveling back to where they came from, that it became a common child's joke amongst the great races of the universe without them even knowing it between them? So many what if's, so little time-space. Our minds are so small that they cannot comprehend how many factors go into making our planet exactly the planet it is. There are so many balances, both terrestrial and extra-terrestrial, which if unbalanced by so much as 5% or less would render human life on this planet absolutely impossible. And we hope to find a planet so like ours, and then hope that life on that planet has evolved (the greatest begging of a question that ever there was) so like us as to allow any communication at all? This discussion can happen at all because of the human mind's inability to focus on and balance very many things at one time and measure a thesis against all other things that could weigh upon it. We simply do not possess the wisdom and mental faculty to treat such a subject. No, my friends, I think all conversation along these lines is so incredibly presumptuous, it is staggering when you really begin to think of everything we take as a given or gloss over when discussing such things. Sorry all you Star Trek fans, and anyone else I have likely offended. I love science fiction as much as the next person, but I think any race of beings wise enough to comprehend the real logistics of space travel or communication across such great distances would conclude right away that it was a total waste of their limited resources, better spent on improving their own state of affairs. (Let the flames begin!;-) Bob ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: ANN and OT: Calling All SETI Enthusiasts
Thanks for the patience of the group allowing the digression of this thread. Sometimes one needs to let ones mind go free with the encouragement of some good stimulating controversy !! ~~ Back to the thread... Oh contraire Mr. Sneider. It is currently practically possible to travel to another planet, but just not seen as sufficiently beneficial at present !! I think one of the biggest problems we humans have is that we tend to base our ideas/concepts/values on history and the tiny (by comparison) view of the future we have through current research. Just as Orville and Wilbur created something that at that time was quite alien to the concept of travel, so will we see future means of travel and communication. For example, did you know that there are experiments with matter transference going on right now that in theory will exceed the speed of light. From what my tiny brain can understand, it's got something to do with transferring the mathematical representation of the matter pattern, the description/glue that bunds the matter together, rather than the actual matter. And for a long time a completely new method of broad spectrum radio communication (if you can call it that) has been available to us, that totally ignores frequency bands. Well, for the latter available may not quite be correct as I understand governments and military have the wraps on it, and believe me I'm not a conspiracy theorist in saying that ;-) Oh yes, and we don't need a computer to answer the meaning of life, the universe and everything, I know it's 42. The problem is that I still don't know how to ask the right question, and I suspect you are in the same situation ;-) best, Bob... Bob Earp White Rock, British Columbia. Message: 9 Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 08:42:02 -0700 From: Bob Sneidar b...@twft.com To: How to use LiveCode use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: ANN and OT: Calling All SETI Enthusiasts Message-ID: dfd226ee-ade4-4f9b-9fd7-407b2ee78...@twft.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Orville was probably talking about people who were saying at the time that it was impossible for humans to take flight. That is not a statement about what is true, it is a statement about what is possible. It's sobering to think someone so smart as Orville Wright could get the two confused. Is it theoretically possible to travel to another planet? Sure! Is it practically possible? Not a chance. The difference between what is true and what is possible. Again, it is a matter of logistics. To experiment and build a craft that can float on air here on terra firma is one thing. To build a craft that can travel to another planet we cannot see and study from here over the vast period of time it would take to get there, not to mention the time dilation that would occur, in one lifetime, and be able to communicate back to say we succeeded, while the people who sent us are still alive, well, that is quite another. I can empty my pool with a garden hose, but I'd be a fool to try to empty lake Erie. I can write a program to keep track of my computer assets. I cannot make a computer to calculate the answer to life, the Universe, Everything! :-) Bob ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: ANN and OT: Calling All SETI Enthusiasts
Bob Sneidar wrote: It's sobering to think someone so smart as Orville Wright could get the two confused. Is it theoretically possible to travel to another planet? Sure! Is it practically possible? Not a chance. The difference between what is true and what is possible. Respectfully, Bob, your post surprises me, coming from someone as technically savvy as yourself. After all, your words came to me through a set of technologies that were impossible in Wright's time, and save for a small handful of sci-fi writers of the day, entirely inconceivable. Heck, not even Xanadu would be dreamed of until decades later, and it took decades more to begin the baby steps toward our Internet, which is even now in its infancy. The computer I'm typing this on seems commonplace enough, and indeed it's far from new, but it has millions of transistors, each of which was inconceivable prior to the early 1950s. And even then, the idea that we would one day have so many millions of transistors on a surface only slightly larger than our thumb would have been laughable if it could have been dreamed of at all. We make things so small now that we can't truly say WE make them at all - we had to first make robots to make them for us, because we humans can't work at that scale. And even the robots we make are too big; modern processors are made by robots that were built by other robots. Case in point: the Intel Celeron G530 has 504 million transistors, build with a 32mn die. You can buy it at NewEgg for about $50. Most folks don't bother because it doesn't have the power we've become accustomed to. For all the wonder of these gadgets, they only represent the extent of HUMAN knowledge, a species that just a few thousand years ago hadn't even mastered the most fundamental technology of all, the ability to make fire with sticks (a skill worth knowing even now, but that's another story). If we take someone from an arbitrary midpoint between then and now, say Benjamin Franklin or Isaac Newton, and could drop them into our world, they would see many of the things we take for granted as complete magic, or perhaps demonism (see the old Omni Mag story, Newton's Gift). And they're from just a couple hundred years ago. So here we are, flying through space at millions of miles an hours on Spaceship Earth, nowhere near the edge of the Universe, which is quite possibly several billion years older than our little corner of space. If we consider a relatively near neighbor, say a planet just a million or two years older than our own - what might a civilization look like that's a couple million years years older than us? What would we look like in a million years? What would our technology look like? Would our current selves be able to understand it? Would we even be able to recognize it as tech, or just be mystified by by flashing lights, no more than Neanderthal could appreciate a book of Shakespeare. Sure, Einstein's Theory of Relativity suggests that the distance between two stars can only be traversed no faster than light, and we human don't live very long so it doesn't seem worth trying - for us, anyway. But a fruit fly lives just a few days, while we live thousands of times longer. Why should we expect that the life cycles of other beings are anything like our own? And Einstein's Theory is just that, a theory. It's not yet a law, and for good reason. Every few years we hear from another quantum physicist suggesting that they may be on the edge of something that disproves it. Wouldn't be the first time a new discovery completed shattered our understanding of how things work. Given the vastness of space and the billions-of-years head start so many other solar systems have had over our own, it doesn't strike me as the least bit implausible that there are other civilizations out there, and that some are well-traveled. In fact, given the math of it, it seems far more probable than not. So while our primitive radio telemetry is indeed paltry and barely worth the time and CPU cycles to bother with, it's the best we have right now and certainly more fun than not trying at all. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Systems Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: ANN and OT: Calling All SETI Enthusiasts
The weather is so nice here, it's hard to resist a good off-topic blether (discussion). On 26 Mar 2012, at 18:47, Roger Guay wrote: given the vastness of our universe and the number of stars contained in it, many argue that it is logical to assume a multitude of intelligent species populating our entire galaxy. There is another argument that says we can't make any reasonable assumptions about the likelihood of life elsewhere until we know more about the normality of the origins of life here. At the moment, the origin of life on earth is unknown. So we can't say how improbable the event was. If it were discovered that it was an extremely unlikely event, then we might revise downwards our estimation of the chances of finding life elsewhere. And the opposite also applies. Until that time, aren't we just guessing? No harm in looking though. Cheers Dave ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: ANN and OT: Calling All SETI Enthusiasts
On 03/27/2012 11:10 PM, Dave Cragg wrote: The weather is so nice here, it's hard to resist a good off-topic blether (discussion). On 26 Mar 2012, at 18:47, Roger Guay wrote: given the vastness of our universe and the number of stars contained in it, many argue that it is logical to assume a multitude of intelligent species populating our entire galaxy. There is another argument that says we can't make any reasonable assumptions about the likelihood of life elsewhere until we know more about the normality of the origins of life here. At the moment, the origin of life on earth is unknown. So we can't say how improbable the event was. If it were discovered that it was an extremely unlikely event, then we might revise downwards our estimation of the chances of finding life elsewhere. And the opposite also applies. Until that time, aren't we just guessing? Of course there is a school of thought that there isn't life anywhere, just an enormous great illusion being experienced by nothing. No harm in looking though. Cheers Dave ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: ANN and OT: Calling All SETI Enthusiasts
On 27 Mar 2012, at 21:19, Richmond wrote: Of course there is a school of thought that there isn't life anywhere, just an enormous great illusion being experienced by nothing. Which for some reason made me remember this (from Monty Python): The universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding In all of the directions it can whizz As fast as it can go, at the speed of light, you know, Twelve million miles a minute, and that's the fastest speed there is. So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure, How amazingly unlikely is your birth, And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space, 'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: ANN and OT: Calling All SETI Enthusiasts
It's easy to dismiss my skepticism, because I have only gotten started on the long list of logistical problems we would have to overcome to pull this off. For the sake of those for whom it would be a burden to read such long dissertations from me, I beg you to hit the delete button and move along. These aren't the droids you are looking for. :-) So then, another distinction needs to be made between presently impossible (given the time, resources and technology available) and practically or intrinsically impossible at ANY time. We really have to avoid getting those two things confused in order to get on. We have to know if any of the logistical problems fall into the second category. If they do, there is no hope of success. There are things that are intrinsically impossible, containing the impossibility within their own nature. Can God make a rock so heavy that even He cannot lift it? That sort of thing. Then there are the practically impossible things, where the time and resources necessary are beyond what is available. Then there is the presently impossible, where the possibility is theoretically defined, but the resources are not yet available. People believe space travel of the kind we are talking about is possible, because they believe that all impossibilities are of the third kind. That is why nothing can ever convince them a thing cannot be done. To those kind I have nothing more to say. You can hang up now. :-) Now then to those that remain, consider that it's not just a matter of having the technology. We also have to have the resources, the time to build such a machine (it's going to be breaking and deteriorating all the time it's being built you know, if it takes very long), and at least an almost certain knowledge that when we get to where we want to go there will be something for us that makes the whole trip worth the trouble. A planet so like ours that we can survive there, eat the plant life and not die, defend ourselves against the creatures that inhabit the place, survive the diseases that may be present, etc. And who knows if, when we run into the local indigenous intelligent species we hope to find, that they will be all that happy and accommodating to us? Maybe they had a bad experience just last century, with another species who tried to take over the planet, fought a horrible war, only just won, and decided that from now on any more of these space travelers will be met with their doomsday weapon before they even get close to the place. Or maybe they thrive off interstellar travels? Maybe we are but a tasty morsel drifting by their little anemone of a planet? Maybe they will herd us like cattle? It doesn't help to say that intelligent species do not act so. We are pretty intelligent, and we aren't giving up our burgers anytime soon. Dolphins are pretty intelligent and they will eat up entire schools of herring. I mentioned before the severe time dilation of near light speed travel, so that even if we could get a manned ship there and send signals back, it would take longer for the signals to get here and back again for a confirmation that earth heard us, than anyone had time to live. And what would we say then? Howz the weather these days? Wait another few thousand years? Who would be listening after the tens of thousands of elapsed time dilated years? Has anything man made lasted 10,000 years here on earth? Think about all the debris we are finding in our own solar system, and then only just, because we have improved the telescopy to the point that we can see the dimly lit debris. Out in space, far from any sun, it would be totally invisible. Do we know for certain there is absolutely empty space between here and our destination? Care to encounter a pebble of space debris at near the speed of light? Has anyone invented or even theorized a device to keep us from becoming a new coat of paint on the bulkheads during acceleration and deceleration? Gravity generators? A perpetual fuel source? Maybe we can detect and avoid debris, oh but wait! What detection device could we bring to bear that could detect anything far out enough to avoid it at those speeds? what would be the consequence of changing direction at near the speed of light even a minutiae and the ship would disintegrate. There wouldn't be time enough for the passengers to become bug squat against the bulkheads before the whole ship were merely random molecules, and that is only *IF* traveling near the speed of light wouldn't do that anyway. But what about our space age radar? Einstein tells us that nothing can go faster than the speed of light, so whatever energy we are transmitting could never exceed our own speed by very much. Our radar energy would probably look like pea soup squirted out of the antennae just in front of the ship. If Einstein was wrong, then the doppler effect would render the reflected energy indistinguishable on the way back, and that is
Re: ANN and OT: Calling All SETI Enthusiasts
Good point Richard. I guess in my mind any species would be faced with the same kind of problems, but it gets the point across better if I put humans in the alien's shoes for a bit. :-) (That is another good point: Do aliens wear shoes?) Bob On Mar 27, 2012, at 3:46 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote: Bob Sneidar wrote: ... Now then to those that remain, consider that it's not just a matter of having the technology. We also have to have the resources, the time to build such a machine... Bob, it seems you and the others are have two very different conversations: Here you're talking about things humans might do to explore space, but the SETI project is about finding other species who may be exploring space. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World LiveCode training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com Webzine for LiveCode developers: http://www.LiveCodeJournal.com LiveCode Journal blog: http://LiveCodejournal.com/blog.irv ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: ANN and OT: Calling All SETI Enthusiasts
Sounds like a failure of imagination, Bob. You said, Orville was probably talking about people who were saying at the time that it was impossible for humans to take flight. Maybe he wasn't. But let's say he was. Just because he WASN'T applying it beyond his immediate situation doesn't mean NO ONE CAN apply it to their more up-to-date situation or (gasp) even apply it beyond his/her/our own situation. I am reminded of how many times (7.3) physicists or other scientists on the cutting edge have said that we are only this ( ) far from a full grasp of the universe(s) (we don't need to worry about those little flaws in our theory, a little housekeeping will take care of them) only to have a significant change happen a few years later, brought about by those pesky flaws. I don't think we have a very good idea of whether our spectrum of knowledge occupies 99% of full knowledge (whatever that means) or 1% or a 10,000th of a percent or asymptotically 0. I personally lean toward the latter end (well, bully for me). Here are another couple of quotations, both by Arthur C. Clarke that whittle my tilly. - Mick (my name, not a quotation) Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. I'm sure the universe is full of intelligent life. It's just been too intelligent to come here. Message: 9 Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 08:42:02 -0700 From: Bob Sneidar b...@twft.com To: How to use LiveCode use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: ANN and OT: Calling All SETI Enthusiasts Message-ID: DFD226EE-ADE4-4F9B-9FD7-407B2EE780C4@twftcom Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Orville was probably talking about people who were saying at the time that it was impossible for humans to take flight. That is not a statement about what is true, it is a statement about what is possible. It's sobering to think someone so smart as Orville Wright could get the two confused. Is it theoretically possible to travel to another planet? Sure! Is it practically possible? Not a chance. The difference between what is true and what is possible. Again, it is a matter of logistics. To experiment and build a craft that can float on air here on terra firma is one thing. To build a craft that can travel to another planet we cannot see and study from here over the vast period of time it would take to get there, not to mention the time dilation that would occur, in one lifetime, and be able to communicate back to say we succeeded, while the people who sent us are still alive, well, that is quite another. I can empty my pool with a garden hose, but I'd be a fool to try to empty lake Erie. I can write a program to keep track of my computer assets. I cannot make a computer to calculate the answer to life, the Universe, Everything! :-) Bob On Mar 27, 2012, at 4:38 AM, Mick Collins wrote: Talking about presumptuous, Bob, well here's a good quotation to keep in mind. If we all worked on the assumption that what is accepted as true is really true, there would be little hope of advance. -- Orville Wright ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: ANN and OT: Calling All SETI Enthusiasts
Tom, Please forgive me (especially Tim) for apparently sounding argumentative. Not my intent at all. I was merely trying to say that given the vastness of our universe and the number of stars contained in it, many argue that it is logical to assume a multitude of intelligent species populating our entire galaxy. And given the vast time scale involved, it is also logical to assume these alien civilizations will not have evolved simultaneously (criterion #1) The second criterion is that the radio active stages of technology of these civilizations will be short relative to these same vast time scales. I'm sure that I am not the first to define this criterion, but I have not seen it discussed before. The validity of this is discussed very briefly in the simulation notes. Further to this point, I would argue that ALL technologies have limited durations, and the simulation allows you to adjust it over a very long range (albeit short relative to the vast time scales of our galaxy) to your heart's content. I would be happy to discuss this at length, but it might be best to do so off-list?? My simulation starts with these assumptions and explores the outcome. These criteria are simply derived from the statistics of the numbers involved. There are many more qualified than I to explain the statistics involved, and a few references are included in the notes of the simulation. For those interested I would would start with the SETI project itself at. http://www.seti.org/ And, the Drake equation says it all . . . statically: http://www.activemind.com/Mysterious/Topics/seti/drake_equation.html Thanks and cheers, Roger Guay On Mar 25, 2012, at 7:56 AM, use-livecode-requ...@lists.runrev.com wrote: Message: 6 Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 20:54:05 -0400 From: Thomas McGrath III mcgra...@mac.com To: How to use LiveCode use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: use-livecode Digest, Vol 102, Issue 49 Message-ID: 02634a04-296a-4fbe-a626-3e7587ff9...@mac.com Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII I didn't take either comment as overly argumentative but more like a challenge (which we tend to do on this list from time to time). For me, coming up with two criteria is intriguing and caught my interest. I would love to see more on the validity of those two criteria, but what really interested me was how Roger translated those to an interesting LC project. Very cool. I would love to hear more about that. -- Tom McGrath III http://lazyriver.on-rev.com 3mcgr...@comcast.net On Mar 24, 2012, at 8:31 PM, Roger Guay wrote: Tim, I don't pretend to know anything! As for my thesis, I am merely making assumptions based on statistics and the vast size of our galaxy and the number of stars it contains. No one has decided anything about the nature of our species except the religious. BTW, did you look at the simulation? I think it might be best to take any further discussions of this nature off-list. Cheers, Roger On Mar 24, 2012, at 6:03 PM, use-livecode-requ...@lists.runrev.com wrote: Message: 9 Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 12:44:21 -0700 From: Tim Jones tolis...@me.com To: How to use LiveCode use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: ANN and OT: Calling All SETI Enthusiasts Message-ID: dabd6b02-27fe-40e6-8df5-3144fce87...@me.com Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Ready to defend your thesis? Let me toss out two great Sci-Fi antithesis to your points below - How have we determined how long the relatively short duration of the radio stage of any societies is? How have we decided, even taking asynchronous development into account, that humans aren't the most mature and advanced species in the nearby galaxy? :-) Tim On Mar 24, 2012, at 12:20 PM, Roger Guay wrote: Hi all, The SETI project has been in existence for about 50 years, and Enrico Fermi's question asked in the 1940's, Where is everybody? is still germane today. I think I have finally succeded in building a simulation of two criteria relevant to this SETI problem: 1) The asynchronous evolution of intelligence throughout the galaxy couple with 2) the relatively short duration of the radio stage of alien technologies. You can download this stack at: https://idisk.mac.com/irog//Public/SETIproblem.livecode I welcome any feedback. Thanks and cheers, Roger Guay ___ ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: ANN and OT: Calling All SETI Enthusiasts
Thank you Mark . . . that seems to work just fine! Al, You can download a legacy saved version of SETIproblemL.Livecode at: https://idisk.mac.com/irog//Public/SETIproblemL.livecode Version 5.5 can be downloaded at: https://idisk.mac.com/irog//Public/SETIproblem.livecode Cheers, Roger On Mar 26, 2012, at 11:00 AM, use-livecode-requ...@lists.runrev.com wrote: Message: 5 Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 11:17:53 -0700 From: Mark Wieder mwie...@ahsoftware.net To: How to use LiveCode use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: ANN and OT: Calling All SETI Enthusiasts. Message-ID: 94999150187.20120325111...@ahsoftware.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Roger- Sunday, March 25, 2012, 11:08:25 AM, you wrote: Sorry for your difficulty, Al. The best I seem to be able to do is to provide SETIproblem in Livecode 5.0.2. I can't find StackRunner on Ken's site and the one I have does not open my stack. Use the Save As menuItem from the File menu and select Legacy for the file type. -- -Mark Wieder mwie...@ahsoftware.net ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: ANN and OT: Calling All SETI Enthusiasts
Roger, I'd love to take a look at your stack but when I download it and open it in Livecode, I get an error that it is not a stack. This is with Livecode 5.0.2. Pete On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 10:47 AM, Roger Guay i...@mac.com wrote: Tom, Please forgive me (especially Tim) for apparently sounding argumentative. Not my intent at all. I was merely trying to say that given the vastness of our universe and the number of stars contained in it, many argue that it is logical to assume a multitude of intelligent species populating our entire galaxy. And given the vast time scale involved, it is also logical to assume these alien civilizations will not have evolved simultaneously (criterion #1) The second criterion is that the radio active stages of technology of these civilizations will be short relative to these same vast time scales. I'm sure that I am not the first to define this criterion, but I have not seen it discussed before. The validity of this is discussed very briefly in the simulation notes. Further to this point, I would argue that ALL technologies have limited durations, and the simulation allows you to adjust it over a very long range (albeit short relative to the vast time scales of our galaxy) to your heart's content. I would be happy to discuss this at length, but it might be best to do so off-list?? My simulation starts with these assumptions and explores the outcome. These criteria are simply derived from the statistics of the numbers involved. There are many more qualified than I to explain the statistics involved, and a few references are included in the notes of the simulation. For those interested I would would start with the SETI project itself at. http://www.seti.org/ And, the Drake equation says it all . . . statically: http://www.activemind.com/Mysterious/Topics/seti/drake_equation.html Thanks and cheers, Roger Guay On Mar 25, 2012, at 7:56 AM, use-livecode-requ...@lists.runrev.com wrote: Message: 6 Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 20:54:05 -0400 From: Thomas McGrath III mcgra...@mac.com To: How to use LiveCode use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: use-livecode Digest, Vol 102, Issue 49 Message-ID: 02634a04-296a-4fbe-a626-3e7587ff9...@mac.com Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII I didn't take either comment as overly argumentative but more like a challenge (which we tend to do on this list from time to time). For me, coming up with two criteria is intriguing and caught my interest. I would love to see more on the validity of those two criteria, but what really interested me was how Roger translated those to an interesting LC project. Very cool. I would love to hear more about that. -- Tom McGrath III http://lazyriver.on-rev.com 3mcgr...@comcast.net On Mar 24, 2012, at 8:31 PM, Roger Guay wrote: Tim, I don't pretend to know anything! As for my thesis, I am merely making assumptions based on statistics and the vast size of our galaxy and the number of stars it contains. No one has decided anything about the nature of our species except the religious. BTW, did you look at the simulation? I think it might be best to take any further discussions of this nature off-list. Cheers, Roger On Mar 24, 2012, at 6:03 PM, use-livecode-request@lists.runrev.comwrote: Message: 9 Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 12:44:21 -0700 From: Tim Jones tolis...@me.com To: How to use LiveCode use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: ANN and OT: Calling All SETI Enthusiasts Message-ID: dabd6b02-27fe-40e6-8df5-3144fce87...@me.com Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Ready to defend your thesis? Let me toss out two great Sci-Fi antithesis to your points below - How have we determined how long the relatively short duration of the radio stage of any societies is? How have we decided, even taking asynchronous development into account, that humans aren't the most mature and advanced species in the nearby galaxy? :-) Tim On Mar 24, 2012, at 12:20 PM, Roger Guay wrote: Hi all, The SETI project has been in existence for about 50 years, and Enrico Fermi's question asked in the 1940's, Where is everybody? is still germane today. I think I have finally succeded in building a simulation of two criteria relevant to this SETI problem: 1) The asynchronous evolution of intelligence throughout the galaxy couple with 2) the relatively short duration of the radio stage of alien technologies. You can download this stack at: https://idisk.mac.com/irog//Public/SETIproblem.livecode I welcome any feedback. Thanks and cheers, Roger Guay ___ ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode -- Pete Molly's Revenge http
Re: ANN and OT: Calling All SETI Enthusiasts
Roger, Tom and all - Sorry that everyone took my comments so seriously. That's why I mentioned that they were Sci-Fi ideas. I was simply playing devil's advocate as my advisor did to me on many more than one occasion and poking a bit of fun at SETI. Personally, I believe that Earth is backwater and so far down the chain of technical evolution that the other species simply ignore us. Either that, or the Predator team was correct and Earth's simply a hunting preserve. But don't ask me to defend that position :-P. Oh, and don't get me started on the missing pieces of Drake's. Tim On Mar 26, 2012, at 10:47 AM, Roger Guay wrote: Tom, Please forgive me (especially Tim) for apparently sounding argumentative. Not my intent at all. I was merely trying to say that given the vastness of our universe and the number of stars contained in it, many argue that it is logical to assume a multitude of intelligent species populating our entire galaxy. And given the vast time scale involved, it is also logical to assume these alien civilizations will not have evolved simultaneously (criterion #1) The second criterion is that the radio active stages of technology of these civilizations will be short relative to these same vast time scales. I'm sure that I am not the first to define this criterion, but I have not seen it discussed before. The validity of this is discussed very briefly in the simulation notes. Further to this point, I would argue that ALL technologies have limited durations, and the simulation allows you to adjust it over a very long range (albeit short relative to the vast time scales of our galaxy) to your heart's content. I would be happy to discuss this at length, but it might be best to do so off-list?? My simulation starts with these assumptions and explores the outcome. These criteria are simply derived from the statistics of the numbers involved. There are many more qualified than I to explain the statistics involved, and a few references are included in the notes of the simulation. For those interested I would would start with the SETI project itself at. http://www.seti.org/ And, the Drake equation says it all . . . statically: http://www.activemind.com/Mysterious/Topics/seti/drake_equation.html Thanks and cheers, Roger Guay ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: ANN and OT: Calling All SETI Enthusiasts
but more like a challenge (which we tend to do on this list from time to time). For me, coming up with two criteria is intriguing and caught my interest. I would love to see more on the validity of those two criteria, but what really interested me was how Roger translated those to an interesting LC project. Very cool. I would love to hear more about that. -- Tom McGrath III http://lazyriver.on-rev.com 3mcgr...@comcast.net On Mar 24, 2012, at 8:31 PM, Roger Guay wrote: Tim, I don't pretend to know anything! As for my thesis, I am merely making assumptions based on statistics and the vast size of our galaxy and the number of stars it contains. No one has decided anything about the nature of our species except the religious. BTW, did you look at the simulation? I think it might be best to take any further discussions of this nature off-list. Cheers, Roger On Mar 24, 2012, at 6:03 PM, use-livecode-requ...@lists.runrev.com wrote: Message: 9 Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 12:44:21 -0700 From: Tim Jones tolis...@me.com To: How to use LiveCode use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: ANN and OT: Calling All SETI Enthusiasts Message-ID: dabd6b02-27fe-40e6-8df5-3144fce87...@me.com Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Ready to defend your thesis? Let me toss out two great Sci-Fi antithesis to your points below - How have we determined how long the relatively short duration of the radio stage of any societies is? How have we decided, even taking asynchronous development into account, that humans aren't the most mature and advanced species in the nearby galaxy? :-) Tim On Mar 24, 2012, at 12:20 PM, Roger Guay wrote: Hi all, The SETI project has been in existence for about 50 years, and Enrico Fermi's question asked in the 1940's, Where is everybody? is still germane today. I think I have finally succeded in building a simulation of two criteria relevant to this SETI problem: 1) The asynchronous evolution of intelligence throughout the galaxy couple with 2) the relatively short duration of the radio stage of alien technologies. You can download this stack at: https://idisk.mac.com/irog//Public/SETIproblem.livecode I welcome any feedback. Thanks and cheers, Roger Guay ___ ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: ANN and OT: Calling All SETI Enthusiasts
The original link is to a version 5.5. Can you use the legacy saved version available at?: https://idisk.mac.com/irog//Public/SETIproblemL.livecode Roger On Mar 26, 2012, at 2:03 PM, use-livecode-requ...@lists.runrev.com wrote: Message: 7 Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 11:01:28 -0700 From: Pete p...@mollysrevenge.com To: How to use LiveCode use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: ANN and OT: Calling All SETI Enthusiasts Message-ID: cabx6j9k4+d061urjrjjgmph_qxo2fykabfaqqxb1rwgrsr+...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Roger, I'd love to take a look at your stack but when I download it and open it in Livecode, I get an error that it is not a stack. This is with Livecode 5.0.2. Pete ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: ANN and OT: Calling All SETI Enthusiasts
No flames, Bob. I wouldn't argue with any one of your points except to say that we do in fact have a SETI project looking for other civilizations, and it makes extremely numerous assumptions, as you say. But, the bottom line is that it's a numbers game based on the vast numbers of stars and scale of our galaxy. Better minds than mine have felt it worthwhile to look/listen for alien technologies that may be a very small subset of the spectrum you speak of. If we come to believe that this is a fool's errand which I gather is your position, then any technologies like ours will soon come to the same conclusion, thereby shortening the radio active phase of their technologies, and thus dramatically decreasing chance encounters of civilization as my simulation dramatizes! Thanks for your help! Cheers, Roger On Mar 26, 2012, at 2:03 PM, use-livecode-requ...@lists.runrev.com wrote: Message: 12 Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 11:28:29 -0700 From: Bob Sneidar b...@twft.com To: How to use LiveCode use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: ANN and OT: Calling All SETI Enthusiasts Message-ID: 2b937175-9284-4c54-9232-ac35c1bdd...@twft.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii The assumptions in discussions like these are extremely numerous, approaching the very number of stars themselves. Why for instance, should we suppose that any alien life form is similar to us? What if an intelligent life form was aquatic, and lived on a planet where the atmosphere was deadly to them? What possible motive could they have to develop radio technology in the first place, and who can assume that our radio technology would even work in their atmosphere? What if the magnetic flux field of their planet was so strong, or the chemical makeup so different that radio transmissions of our kind would never even penetrate it, never mind be something they would deploy? What if their great superior reasoning led them to conclude that the time, efforts and resources to even attempt to travel at or near light speeds, or else attempt to bend space-time was so vast, and the probability of failure to find a race like enough to themselves so great, and the time dilation that would occur so devastating to any hope of communicating or traveling back to where they came from, that it became a common child's joke amongst the great races of the universe without them even knowing it between them? So many what if's, so little time-space. Our minds are so small that they cannot comprehend how many factors go into making our planet exactly the planet it is. There are so many balances, both terrestrial and extra-terrestrial, which if unbalanced by so much as 5% or less would render human life on this planet absolutely impossible. And we hope to find a planet so like ours, and then hope that life on that planet has evolved (the greatest begging of a question that ever there was) so like us as to allow any communication at all? This discussion can happen at all because of the human mind's inability to focus on and balance very many things at one time and measure a thesis against all other things that could weigh upon it. We simply do not possess the wisdom and mental faculty to treat such a subject. No, my friends, I think all conversation along these lines is so incredibly presumptuous, it is staggering when you really begin to think of everything we take as a given or gloss over when discussing such things. Sorry all you Star Trek fans, and anyone else I have likely offended. I love science fiction as much as the next person, but I think any race of beings wise enough to comprehend the real logistics of space travel or communication across such great distances would conclude right away that it was a total waste of their limited resources, better spent on improving their own state of affairs. (Let the flames begin!;-) Bob ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: ANN and OT: Calling All SETI Enthusiasts
I would love to get you started on the missing pieces of Drake's. But, perhaps off list?? Roger On Mar 26, 2012, at 2:03 PM, use-livecode-requ...@lists.runrev.com wrote: Oh, and don't get me started on the missing pieces of Drake's. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: ANN and OT: Calling All SETI Enthusiasts
Yes, thanks Roger - I missed that in the thread before sending my email. On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 1:16 PM, Roger Guay i...@mac.com wrote: The original link is to a version 5.5. Can you use the legacy saved version available at?: https://idisk.mac.com/irog//Public/SETIproblemL.livecode Roger On Mar 26, 2012, at 2:03 PM, use-livecode-requ...@lists.runrev.com wrote: Message: 7 Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 11:01:28 -0700 From: Pete p...@mollysrevenge.com To: How to use LiveCode use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: ANN and OT: Calling All SETI Enthusiasts Message-ID: cabx6j9k4+d061urjrjjgmph_qxo2fykabfaqqxb1rwgrsr+...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Roger, I'd love to take a look at your stack but when I download it and open it in Livecode, I get an error that it is not a stack. This is with Livecode 5.0.2. Pete ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode -- Pete Molly's Revenge http://www.mollysrevenge.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: ANN and OT: Calling All SETI Enthusiasts
All I can say, Bob, is if the great thinkers, scientists, and philospohers of the years had that attitude, we'd still be living in caves. Pete On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 11:28 AM, Bob Sneidar b...@twft.com wrote: This discussion can happen at all because of the human mind's inability to focus on and balance very many things at one time and measure a thesis against all other things that could weigh upon it. We simply do not possess the wisdom and mental faculty to treat such a subject. No, my friends, I think all conversation along these lines is so incredibly presumptuous, it is staggering when you really begin to think of everything we take as a given or gloss over when discussing such things. Sorry all you Star Trek fans, and anyone else I have likely offended. I love science fiction as much as the next person, but I think any race of beings wise enough to comprehend the real logistics of space travel or communication across such great distances would conclude right away that it was a total waste of their limited resources, better spent on improving their own state of affairs. -- Pete Molly's Revenge http://www.mollysrevenge.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: ANN and OT: Calling All SETI Enthusiasts
The leap from cave to field is not even comparable to the leap from terrestrial to extra-terrestrial. You can always get back to the cave from the field in time for supper. :-) Bob On Mar 26, 2012, at 2:30 PM, Pete wrote: All I can say, Bob, is if the great thinkers, scientists, and philospohers of the years had that attitude, we'd still be living in caves. Pete On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 11:28 AM, Bob Sneidar b...@twft.com wrote: This discussion can happen at all because of the human mind's inability to focus on and balance very many things at one time and measure a thesis against all other things that could weigh upon it. We simply do not possess the wisdom and mental faculty to treat such a subject. No, my friends, I think all conversation along these lines is so incredibly presumptuous, it is staggering when you really begin to think of everything we take as a given or gloss over when discussing such things. Sorry all you Star Trek fans, and anyone else I have likely offended. I love science fiction as much as the next person, but I think any race of beings wise enough to comprehend the real logistics of space travel or communication across such great distances would conclude right away that it was a total waste of their limited resources, better spent on improving their own state of affairs. -- Pete Molly's Revenge http://www.mollysrevenge.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: ANN and OT: Calling All SETI Enthusiasts
“Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is quite staggering” Buckminster Fuller ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: ANN and OT: Calling All SETI Enthusiasts.
Sorry for your difficulty, Al. The best I seem to be able to do is to provide SETIproblem in Livecode 5.0.2. I can't find StackRunner on Ken's site and the one I have does not open my stack. I can't even open my stack in version 4.6.3 of Livecode! Do you have any other suggestions? My stack is not using any of the new features of LiveCode 5.5. Would you like me to build a standalone? As to the status of iDisk, it is still up and running and rumored to be shut down around June of this year. Cheers, Roger On Mar 25, 2012, at 11:00 AM, use-livecode-requ...@lists.runrev.com wrote: Message: 2 Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 07:22:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Alejandro Tejada capellan2...@gmail.com To: use-revolut...@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: use-livecode Digest, Vol 102, Issue 49 Message-ID: 1332685330385-4503230.p...@n4.nabble.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Roger, This stack was created with LiveCode 5.5 Could you post a version that runs in Ken Ray's StackRunner: http://www.sonsothunder.com/devres/revolution/downloads/StackRunner.htm or this stack actually require new features of latest LiveCode version? By the way, yesterday I was asking about iDisk webpages and Mark Schoneville told me that this service had closed long ago. How did you are using iDisk, if the service was closed? Thanks in advance! Al ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: ANN and OT: Calling All SETI Enthusiasts.
Roger- Sunday, March 25, 2012, 11:08:25 AM, you wrote: Sorry for your difficulty, Al. The best I seem to be able to do is to provide SETIproblem in Livecode 5.0.2. I can't find StackRunner on Ken's site and the one I have does not open my stack. Use the Save As menuItem from the File menu and select Legacy for the file type. -- -Mark Wieder mwie...@ahsoftware.net ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: ANN and OT: Calling All SETI Enthusiasts
Ready to defend your thesis? Let me toss out two great Sci-Fi antithesis to your points below - How have we determined how long the relatively short duration of the radio stage of any societies is? How have we decided, even taking asynchronous development into account, that humans aren't the most mature and advanced species in the nearby galaxy? :-) Tim On Mar 24, 2012, at 12:20 PM, Roger Guay wrote: Hi all, The SETI project has been in existence for about 50 years, and Enrico Fermi's question asked in the 1940's, Where is everybody? is still germane today. I think I have finally succeded in building a simulation of two criteria relevant to this SETI problem: 1) The asynchronous evolution of intelligence throughout the galaxy couple with 2) the relatively short duration of the radio stage of alien technologies. You can download this stack at: https://idisk.mac.com/irog//Public/SETIproblem.livecode I welcome any feedback. Thanks and cheers, Roger Guay ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
