Re: Editing Large Scripts is Faster

[Richard Gaskin]

Ali Lloyd wrote:


On Sat, Sep 5, 2015 at 12:02 AM Richard Gaskin wrote:


 Let's not let Github's limitation impede meaningful work.

 What we need is a way to ensure that the changes applied are
 the changes we want.

 Format is a distant second to that, merely a means to that end and
 something we can overcome.

 Let's brainstorm ways to fix this critical problem holding up so
 much of the work we could be sharing.

...

Yes, I completely agree that this is a problem which needs a
solution. But the fact remains that we currently don't have one.


Au contraire, mon ami:  We're surrounded by possible solutions, we just 
haven't picked one yet.


I agree that solutions favoring Github should continue to be preferred 
wherever practical.


But Github is only a means to a goal, and of course not the goal itself. 
 Where it helps achieve a goal that benefits LiveCode it should be 
used, and where it may impeded a goal that would benefit LiveCode other 
options will be needed, perhaps crafted in LiveCode itself (it's a 
wonderfully flexible and efficient language). Software was produced long 
before Github was born, and will continue to be produced long after 
Github is replaced, so we have a long history of productive options to 
inspire us as we work our way toward a solution.


Thankfully most of what we need is already handled well with the current 
Github setup, including not only the engine but also docs and nearly all 
libraries.


But from time to time we may have an edge-case opportunity for a 
component in LiveCode's native file format, such as the one on our 
plates now.  For those we'll want to be able to act on community 
contributions where they help add value to the LiveCode experience.


It may be helpful to separate what we *want* from what we truly *need*.

Clearly what we *want* is a Github-savvy solution, but Github was never 
designed for how LiveCode works so there are edge cases like this one 
where that one option isn't practical.


What we *need* is the ability to:

- IDENTIFY specific changes between a master stack file
  and a modified one.

- REVIEW those changes to ensure fitness, compatibility,
  and security.

- MERGE those changes into the master, if for some reason the
  master has been altered since the changes were submitted. (if
  the master hasn't changed of course the new stack file can
  simply become the master going forward).

There are specifics of each step we could explore in more detail, but 
it's worth noting here that it seems from your post that the v7 IDE is 
effectively frozen in terms of LiveCode Ltd's changes, with the team's 
efforts going into the dev branch for v8, and dependent on components 
that require v8's Builder language and thus preclude traditional 
backporting.


That the v7 IDE has few if any changes between minor release means that 
a merge per se may not be needed.  And since an object merge is the only 
complex step not already addressed through relatively simple tools, we 
have hope for a workflow that may allow the community to continue to 
advance the IDE shipping with the current product while the team focuses 
on the future.


I'll follow up offline to explore these details with you in our next 
Community meeting, and look forward to reporting back here either a new 
workflow for these rare edge cases or a solid understanding of why the 
current IDE cannot be enhanced.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 LiveCode Community Manager
 rich...@livecode.org


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Re: Editing Large Scripts is Faster

[Monte Goulding]

> On 9 Sep 2015, at 7:31 am, Richard Gaskin  wrote:
> 
> That the v7 IDE has few if any changes between minor release means that a 
> merge per se may not be needed.  And since an object merge is the only 
> complex step not already addressed through relatively simple tools, we have 
> hope for a workflow that may allow the community to continue to advance the 
> IDE shipping with the current product while the team focuses on the future.


I haven’t been following this conversation. Do you want your changes eventually 
merged into v8 or are they only for v7? If it’s just v7 why not start a 
community fork and take the pressure of the team?

On a slightly related note I should be able to support widgets in lcVCS for 
those on the bleeding edge of v8 now that the widget  <-> array is merged in.

Cheers

Monte
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Re: Editing Large Scripts is Faster

[Richard Gaskin]

Monte Goulding wrote:

>> On 9 Sep 2015, at 7:31 am, Richard Gaskin wrote:
>>
>> That the v7 IDE has few if any changes between minor release
>> means that a merge per se may not be needed.  And since an
>> object merge is the only complex step not already addressed
>> through relatively simple tools, we have hope for a workflow
>> that may allow the community to continue to advance the IDE
>> shipping with the current product while the team focuses on
>> the future.
>
> I haven’t been following this conversation. Do you want your changes
> eventually merged into v8 or are they only for v7?

This thread goes back aways, but perhaps the crux is in this post from 
Charles Warwick with a change he added to the v7 IDE so useful the team 
has since incorporated it into the v8 build:




I gather from Ali's post that the v7 IDE is in maintenance mode; that 
is, critical bugs will be addressed but new features likely to be 
limited to v8 to be deployed with Builder is out of Beta.


Meanwhile, we all want to see the company raise its conversion rates by 
providing the best LiveCode experience we can for people downloading the 
current version today.  So if we can find a way to advantage of 
community contributions in the current product, all of the current 
community benefits as well as those considering LiveCode who may find a 
nifty new feature now and then that much more compelling.



> If it’s just v7 why not start a community fork and take the pressure
> of the team?

Essentially that seems to be where we're at.  Most of the work is 
already well handled through Github, so we're really only talking about 
a very small number of edge cases. And on this one the work has already 
been done by the community (thanks, Charles!).


But the difference is that a true fork is only useful for those that 
learn about it, know where to download it, and are comfortable digging 
into their LiveCode folders to replace their IDE stack file with the 
Community fork.  Fine for most of tte folks on this list, but nearly 
completely obviating any possible benefit for newcomers.


If we can just get a review process in place for community enhancements 
to the IDE to be included in the main install, everyone wins.



> On a slightly related note I should be able to support widgets
> in lcVCS for those on the bleeding edge of v8 now that the
> widget  <-> array is merged in.

Good to hear.  Once Builder is fleshed out, tested, and performant I 
look forward to diving in wholeheartedly.


--
  Richard Gaskin
  LiveCode Community Manager
  richard at livecode.org

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Re: Editing Large Scripts is Faster

[Monte Goulding]

> On 9 Sep 2015, at 10:37 am, Richard Gaskin  wrote:
> 
> If we can just get a review process in place for community enhancements to 
> the IDE to be included in the main install, everyone wins.

Are you talking about both script and object property changes or just script? 
If it’s just script (at least for starters) then let me make the following 
suggestion:

- The user that wants to make the change checks out the development head of the 
livecode version they want to update. For example develop-7.0 in this 
discussion. 
- They build and run (which will load the ide from the repo). 
- They open the script they want to edit and copy it. 
- They go to github and create a gist with
  - the first line being the long name of the objec
  - second line being the commit reference for the previous change to the file 
before this script version (git log -n 1 — stackname.livecode)
  - the rest of the gist is the script from that version of the stack
- They edit the script in livecode and get it how they want
- They copy the script again and go and add a revision to their gist
- They open up a bug report and link to the gist

The LiveCode team can see the exact changes made on the revisions page like 
this:
https://gist.github.com/montegoulding/d0e3b0dc0fb5a94ff2d7/revisions 


They can comment and discuss further changes required for it to be copied in.

This way if there is a new commit between the one the user based the gist on 
and the most recent in the repo then the team know that they need to ask the 
contributor to base the change off the latest or merge them.

Cheers

Monte


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Re: Editing Large Scripts is Faster

[Ali Lloyd]

On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 11:59 PM Mark Wieder  wrote:

> Ali Lloyd  writes:
>
> > It's not harder. I'm saying it can't be accepted as a community
> > contribution, because whichever way you slice it, it involves binary
> > stacks.
>

That is indeed the purpose. And it was duly incorporated into the develop
IDE, where all IDE enhancements are currently going.
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Re: Editing Large Scripts is Faster

[Ali Lloyd]

Yes, I completely agree that this is a problem which needs a solution. But
the fact remains that we currently don't have one.

On Sat, Sep 5, 2015 at 12:02 AM Richard Gaskin 
wrote:

> Ali Lloyd wrote:
> >> >> On 4 Sep 2015, at 12:25 pm, Mark Wieder 
> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> On 09/03/2015 10:52 AM, Ali Lloyd wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> That requires a backport, as the script editor in 8 has scriptified
> >> >>> behaviors and a widget for the variable viewer.
> >> >>
> >> >> I must be missing something. Charles detailed the changes that need
> to
> >> be made to the revscripteditor.rev script for LC7. Why is that any
> harder
> >> than any other fix to IDE stack scripts? The fact that LC8 uses
> scriptified
> >> stacks shouldn't even come up in that discussion.
> >> >>
> >>
> >
> > It's not harder. I'm saying it can't be accepted as a community
> > contribution, because whichever way you slice it, it involves binary
> > stacks.
>
> It's on a computer, Ali - ultimately everything is binary. :)
>
> Let's not let Github's limitation impede meaningful work.
>
> What we need is a way to ensure that the changes applied are the changes
> we want.
>
> Format is a distant second to that, merely a means to that end and
> something we can overcome.
>
> Let's brainstorm ways to fix this critical problem holding up so much of
> the work we could be sharing.
>
> It may not be Github, but it doesn't have to be.  Github was designed
> for C programmers working on the Linux kernel.  Different problem,
> different tools.  If we need a uniquely-LiveCode solution to assist with
> some parts of IDE development, well, it wouldn't be the first time
> LiveCode's unusual nature requires fresh thinking.
>
> After all, the reason we're all here is because LiveCode isn't like
> everything else.
>
> Let's do this.
>
> --
>   Richard Gaskin
>   LiveCode Community Manager
>   rich...@livecode.org
>
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Re: Editing Large Scripts is Faster

[Richard Gaskin]

Charles Warwick wrote:


On 4 Sep 2015, at 12:25 pm, Mark Wieder  wrote:

On 09/03/2015 10:52 AM, Ali Lloyd wrote:


That requires a backport, as the script editor in 8 has scriptified
behaviors and a widget for the variable viewer.


I must be missing something. Charles detailed the changes that need to be made 
to the revscripteditor.rev script for LC7. Why is that any harder than any 
other fix to IDE stack scripts? The fact that LC8 uses scriptified stacks 
shouldn't even come up in that discussion.

I'd be happy to make the changes for you if it's too much work, or maybe if you 
ask nicely Charles can send you the stack he's already modified and save us 
both some work.


For anyone who wants to use this feature on LC7, a copy of the modified stack 
is here:

https://github.com/techstrategies/livecode-ide/blob/feature-7.0-hander-filter/Toolset/palettes/revscripteditor.rev?raw=true

Simply download and copy that stack over the top of the existing one of the 
same name.


Thank you Mark Wieder for offering to update the v7.1 IDE, and to 
Charles for having already done so.


This is exactly the sort of community engagement we've been discussing 
with the team recently, I hope they take advantage of your efforts to 
implement that useful enhancement in the next build of the IDE.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 LiveCode Community Manager
 rich...@livecode.org


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Re: Editing Large Scripts is Faster

[Mark Wieder]

On 09/04/2015 04:02 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:


Let's do this.


Pull request submitted.
https://github.com/runrev/livecode-ide/pull/478

--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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RE: Editing Large Scripts is Faster

[Ralph DiMola]

Thank You. Works fine with 6.7.6.

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdim...@evergreeninfo.net

-Original Message-
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
Of Mark Wieder
Sent: Friday, September 04, 2015 9:24 PM
To: How to use LiveCode
Subject: Re: Editing Large Scripts is Faster

On 09/03/2015 09:54 PM, Charles Warwick wrote:

> For anyone who wants to use this feature on LC7, a copy of the modified
stack is here:
>
>
https://github.com/techstrategies/livecode-ide/blob/feature-7.0-hander-filte
r/Toolset/palettes/revscripteditor.rev?raw=true

Works fine in LC6.7 as well, for what that's worth.

-- 
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: Editing Large Scripts is Faster

[Ali Lloyd]

>
>
> >> On 4 Sep 2015, at 12:25 pm, Mark Wieder 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> On 09/03/2015 10:52 AM, Ali Lloyd wrote:
> >>
> >>> That requires a backport, as the script editor in 8 has scriptified
> >>> behaviors and a widget for the variable viewer.
> >>
> >> I must be missing something. Charles detailed the changes that need to
> be made to the revscripteditor.rev script for LC7. Why is that any harder
> than any other fix to IDE stack scripts? The fact that LC8 uses scriptified
> stacks shouldn't even come up in that discussion.
> >>
>

It's not harder. I'm saying it can't be accepted as a community
contribution, because whichever way you slice it, it involves binary
stacks.
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Re: Editing Large Scripts is Faster

[Mark Wieder]

Charles Warwick  writes:

> Simply download and copy that stack over the top of the existing one of
> the same name.

Thanks for that.
Done, and it works perfectly.

-- 
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com



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Re: Editing Large Scripts is Faster

[Mark Wieder]

Ali Lloyd  writes:

> It's not harder. I'm saying it can't be accepted as a community
> contribution, because whichever way you slice it, it involves binary
> stacks.

I thought that was the purpose of the 'BugFix:' or 'Feature'
prefixes for bug reports, i.e., here's what's wrong and here's
how to fix it.

-- 
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com



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Re: Editing Large Scripts is Faster

[Richard Gaskin]

Ali Lloyd wrote:

>> On 4 Sep 2015, at 12:25 pm, Mark Wieder 
wrote:
>>
>> On 09/03/2015 10:52 AM, Ali Lloyd wrote:
>>
>>> That requires a backport, as the script editor in 8 has scriptified
>>> behaviors and a widget for the variable viewer.
>>
>> I must be missing something. Charles detailed the changes that need to
be made to the revscripteditor.rev script for LC7. Why is that any harder
than any other fix to IDE stack scripts? The fact that LC8 uses scriptified
stacks shouldn't even come up in that discussion.
>>



It's not harder. I'm saying it can't be accepted as a community
contribution, because whichever way you slice it, it involves binary
stacks.


It's on a computer, Ali - ultimately everything is binary. :)

Let's not let Github's limitation impede meaningful work.

What we need is a way to ensure that the changes applied are the changes 
we want.


Format is a distant second to that, merely a means to that end and 
something we can overcome.


Let's brainstorm ways to fix this critical problem holding up so much of 
the work we could be sharing.


It may not be Github, but it doesn't have to be.  Github was designed 
for C programmers working on the Linux kernel.  Different problem, 
different tools.  If we need a uniquely-LiveCode solution to assist with 
some parts of IDE development, well, it wouldn't be the first time 
LiveCode's unusual nature requires fresh thinking.


After all, the reason we're all here is because LiveCode isn't like 
everything else.


Let's do this.

--
 Richard Gaskin
 LiveCode Community Manager
 rich...@livecode.org

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Re: Editing Large Scripts is Faster

[Mark Wieder]

On 09/03/2015 09:54 PM, Charles Warwick wrote:


For anyone who wants to use this feature on LC7, a copy of the modified stack 
is here:

https://github.com/techstrategies/livecode-ide/blob/feature-7.0-hander-filter/Toolset/palettes/revscripteditor.rev?raw=true


Works fine in LC6.7 as well, for what that's worth.

--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: Editing Large Scripts is Faster

[Mark Wieder]

Jana Doughty  writes:

> We have an added perk to LiveCode 8 DP 4 for you (in case HTML5 wasn't
> exciting enough already!). You can read about it here:
> 
> https://livecode.com/editing-large-scripts-faster/

Great! And thanks to Charles for the patch.

Now how about applying one of those filters to the variables list?
How about splitting the env variables into a separate tab?
How about splitting the global variables into a separate tab?

-- 
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com




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Re: Editing Large Scripts is Faster

[Richard Gaskin]

Thanks for the clarification.  If someone in the community wanted to 
help out my making adding this to the v7 IDE so it could help attract 
current customers, what would be the procedure for that?


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

Ali Lloyd wrote:

That requires a backport, as the script editor in 8 has scriptified
behaviors and a widget for the variable viewer.

On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 6:09 PM Richard Gaskin 
wrote:


Mark Wieder wrote:
> Jana Doughty  writes:
>
>> We have an added perk to LiveCode 8 DP 4 for you (in case HTML5 wasn't
>> exciting enough already!). You can read about it here:
>>
>> https://livecode.com/editing-large-scripts-faster/
>
> Great! And thanks to Charles for the patch.
>
> Now how about applying one of those filters to the variables list?
> How about splitting the env variables into a separate tab?
> How about splitting the global variables into a separate tab?

And since the script editor was the same before this change, how about
including that in v7 so it can be used in production work now?

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com



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Re: Editing Large Scripts is Faster

[Ali Lloyd]

This wouldn't currently be possible, I don't think. Backporting the
scriptified behaviors involves a binary stack change, as does adding the
filter.

On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 7:33 PM Richard Gaskin 
wrote:

> Thanks for the clarification.  If someone in the community wanted to
> help out my making adding this to the v7 IDE so it could help attract
> current customers, what would be the procedure for that?
>
> --
>   Richard Gaskin
>   Fourth World Systems
>   Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>   
>   ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>
> Ali Lloyd wrote:
> > That requires a backport, as the script editor in 8 has scriptified
> > behaviors and a widget for the variable viewer.
> >
> > On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 6:09 PM Richard Gaskin  fourthworld.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Mark Wieder wrote:
> >> > Jana Doughty  writes:
> >> >
> >> >> We have an added perk to LiveCode 8 DP 4 for you (in case HTML5
> wasn't
> >> >> exciting enough already!). You can read about it here:
> >> >>
> >> >> https://livecode.com/editing-large-scripts-faster/
> >> >
> >> > Great! And thanks to Charles for the patch.
> >> >
> >> > Now how about applying one of those filters to the variables list?
> >> > How about splitting the env variables into a separate tab?
> >> > How about splitting the global variables into a separate tab?
> >>
> >> And since the script editor was the same before this change, how about
> >> including that in v7 so it can be used in production work now?
> >>
> >> --
> >>   Richard Gaskin
> >>   Fourth World Systems
> >>   Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
> >>   
> >>   Ambassador at FourthWorld.com
> http://www.FourthWorld.com
>
>
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Re: Editing Large Scripts is Faster

[Richard Gaskin]

Mark Wieder wrote:

Jana Doughty  writes:


We have an added perk to LiveCode 8 DP 4 for you (in case HTML5 wasn't
exciting enough already!). You can read about it here:

https://livecode.com/editing-large-scripts-faster/


Great! And thanks to Charles for the patch.

Now how about applying one of those filters to the variables list?
How about splitting the env variables into a separate tab?
How about splitting the global variables into a separate tab?


And since the script editor was the same before this change, how about 
including that in v7 so it can be used in production work now?


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Editing Large Scripts is Faster

[Ali Lloyd]

That requires a backport, as the script editor in 8 has scriptified
behaviors and a widget for the variable viewer.

On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 6:09 PM Richard Gaskin 
wrote:

> Mark Wieder wrote:
> > Jana Doughty  writes:
> >
> >> We have an added perk to LiveCode 8 DP 4 for you (in case HTML5 wasn't
> >> exciting enough already!). You can read about it here:
> >>
> >> https://livecode.com/editing-large-scripts-faster/
> >
> > Great! And thanks to Charles for the patch.
> >
> > Now how about applying one of those filters to the variables list?
> > How about splitting the env variables into a separate tab?
> > How about splitting the global variables into a separate tab?
>
> And since the script editor was the same before this change, how about
> including that in v7 so it can be used in production work now?
>
> --
>   Richard Gaskin
>   Fourth World Systems
>   Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>   
>   ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>
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Re: Editing Large Scripts is Faster

[Charles Warwick]

> On 4 Sep 2015, at 12:25 pm, Mark Wieder  wrote:
> 
> On 09/03/2015 10:52 AM, Ali Lloyd wrote:
> 
>> That requires a backport, as the script editor in 8 has scriptified
>> behaviors and a widget for the variable viewer.
> 
> I must be missing something. Charles detailed the changes that need to be 
> made to the revscripteditor.rev script for LC7. Why is that any harder than 
> any other fix to IDE stack scripts? The fact that LC8 uses scriptified stacks 
> shouldn't even come up in that discussion.
> 
> I'd be happy to make the changes for you if it's too much work, or maybe if 
> you ask nicely Charles can send you the stack he's already modified and save 
> us both some work.

For anyone who wants to use this feature on LC7, a copy of the modified stack 
is here:

https://github.com/techstrategies/livecode-ide/blob/feature-7.0-hander-filter/Toolset/palettes/revscripteditor.rev?raw=true

Simply download and copy that stack over the top of the existing one of the 
same name.

> Is LC7 being end-of-lifed already? We still haven't gotten a stable 7.1 
> release.
> 
> -- 
> Mark Wieder
> ahsoftw...@gmail.com
> 
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Re: Editing Large Scripts is Faster

[Mark Wieder]

On 09/03/2015 10:52 AM, Ali Lloyd wrote:


That requires a backport, as the script editor in 8 has scriptified
behaviors and a widget for the variable viewer.


I must be missing something. Charles detailed the changes that need to 
be made to the revscripteditor.rev script for LC7. Why is that any 
harder than any other fix to IDE stack scripts? The fact that LC8 uses 
scriptified stacks shouldn't even come up in that discussion.


I'd be happy to make the changes for you if it's too much work, or maybe 
if you ask nicely Charles can send you the stack he's already modified 
and save us both some work.


Is LC7 being end-of-lifed already? We still haven't gotten a stable 7.1 
release.


--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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