Re: LiveCode for the rest of us

[Richard Gaskin]

Richmond wrote:


On 22.09.2015 22:46, Richard Gaskin wrote:


Heck, on Windows I'd be thrilled if LC could just not underline menu
mnemonic characters until the Alt key is down.  I haven't seen any
other software work like LC since maybe Win95,


WQow! That's  a fairly sweeping statement.

I would be grateful if you could say exactly why.


See the first sentence in what I wrote above.

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: LiveCode for the rest of us

[Richmond]

On 22.09.2015 22:46, Richard Gaskin wrote:

Brahmanathaswami wrote:


MS Word's new model for switching tool sets at the top of the window is
pretty powerful..

Something like that for LC would be awesome.


Heck, on Windows I'd be thrilled if LC could just not underline menu 
mnemonic characters until the Alt key is down.  I haven't seen any 
other software work like LC since maybe Win95,


WQow! That's  a fairly sweeping statement.

I would be grateful if you could say exactly why.

Richmond.

and it's one of those at-first-glance things that can be a real 
turn-off when you're looking for a toolkit to make apps with in 2015.





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Re: LiveCode for the rest of us

[Richard Gaskin]

Brahmanathaswami wrote:


MS Word's new model for switching tool sets at the top of the window is
pretty powerful..

Something like that for LC would be awesome.


Heck, on Windows I'd be thrilled if LC could just not underline menu 
mnemonic characters until the Alt key is down.  I haven't seen any other 
software work like LC since maybe Win95, and it's one of those 
at-first-glance things that can be a real turn-off when you're looking 
for a toolkit to make apps with in 2015.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: LiveCode for the rest of us

[Richard Gaskin]

Roger Eller wrote:

> On 22.09.2015 22:46, Richard Gaskin wrote:
>>
>> Heck, on Windows I'd be thrilled if LC could just not underline menu
>> mnemonic characters until the Alt key is down.  I haven't seen any
>> other software work like LC since maybe Win95,
>
> I use LC every day on Windows, and have never even noticed the
> mnemonic characters were visible all the time. Nor has it bothered
> me.  But now it probably will.  Thanks for that Richard!  :)

Happy to help. :)  But a big part of the thanks goes to 
Bramanathaswami's co-worker who was put off by the incorrect text 
baselines in LC's "standard" button style.


His story reminded me of questions I've heard from newcomers over the 
years, but since I spend a lot of time with long-time LC fans I don't 
hear them often enough.  I've been reflecting on that story a lot since 
he told it here.  It may well be the most important UX persona we have.


A lot of us have been using LC and related languages so long we no 
longer see them directly.  A part of our consciousness has adopted a 
habit of explaining away anomalies to the point that we no longer see 
them at all.


When I got started with HC, I was thrilled to be programming at all that 
it didn't matter much to me that HC's buttons didn't look like standard 
Mac buttons, or that scrolling a window required some novelty palette 
rather than just being able to put scrollbars in the window.


When SuperCard came along I finally had a toolkit that gave me true 
Mac-looking buttons and scrollbars and such, but then I needed to deploy 
to Windows and moved to what was then called MetaCard.


Being a long-time Mac-only guy, I was so thrilled that I could write 
stuff for other platforms that just ran at all that I didn't care much 
about the many ways its UIs looked a bit off.  And by the time I'd 
gotten enough experience to have known better, I was hooked, so enamored 
with what then became LiveCode that I'd already developed the habit of 
not seeing.


But newcomers have no such habit. And newcomers are the future of this 
platform.


By its nature, most of the feedback on those sorts of things can't be 
captured, since a newcomer who chose not to use LiveCode isn't posting 
on this list, isn't a member of the forums, and will never be invited to 
participate in a customer survey since they didn't become customers.


So it falls on us to try to regain our fresh vision, to see things as 
they are and anticipate where people like Bramanathaswami's friend might 
say, "Really? Why would I bother?" - and having anticipated that, reduce 
the space between here and "Yes! This is what I was looking for!"


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com


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Re: LiveCode for the rest of us

[Roger Eller]

On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 5:32 PM, Richard Gaskin 
wrote:

> Roger Eller wrote:
>
> > On 22.09.2015 22:46, Richard Gaskin wrote:
> >>
> >> Heck, on Windows I'd be thrilled if LC could just not underline menu
> >> mnemonic characters until the Alt key is down.  I haven't seen any
> >> other software work like LC since maybe Win95,
> >
> > I use LC every day on Windows, and have never even noticed the
> > mnemonic characters were visible all the time. Nor has it bothered
> > me.  But now it probably will.  Thanks for that Richard!  :)
>
> Happy to help. :)  But a big part of the thanks goes to Bramanathaswami's
> co-worker who was put off by the incorrect text baselines in LC's
> "standard" button style.
>
> His story reminded me of questions I've heard from newcomers over the
> years, but since I spend a lot of time with long-time LC fans I don't hear
> them often enough.  I've been reflecting on that story a lot since he told
> it here.  It may well be the most important UX persona we have.
>
> A lot of us have been using LC and related languages so long we no longer
> see them directly.  A part of our consciousness has adopted a habit of
> explaining away anomalies to the point that we no longer see them at all.
>
> When I got started with HC, I was thrilled to be programming at all that
> it didn't matter much to me that HC's buttons didn't look like standard Mac
> buttons, or that scrolling a window required some novelty palette rather
> than just being able to put scrollbars in the window.
>
> When SuperCard came along I finally had a toolkit that gave me true
> Mac-looking buttons and scrollbars and such, but then I needed to deploy to
> Windows and moved to what was then called MetaCard.
>
> Being a long-time Mac-only guy, I was so thrilled that I could write stuff
> for other platforms that just ran at all that I didn't care much about the
> many ways its UIs looked a bit off.  And by the time I'd gotten enough
> experience to have known better, I was hooked, so enamored with what then
> became LiveCode that I'd already developed the habit of not seeing.
>
> But newcomers have no such habit. And newcomers are the future of this
> platform.
>
> By its nature, most of the feedback on those sorts of things can't be
> captured, since a newcomer who chose not to use LiveCode isn't posting on
> this list, isn't a member of the forums, and will never be invited to
> participate in a customer survey since they didn't become customers.
>
> So it falls on us to try to regain our fresh vision, to see things as they
> are and anticipate where people like Bramanathaswami's friend might say,
> "Really? Why would I bother?" - and having anticipated that, reduce the
> space between here and "Yes! This is what I was looking for!"
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>  
>

In recent years, or was it months?, the OS look-N-feel is changing way too
frequently to keep up.  Therefore, I prefer to just go custom with my
application interfaces in most cases. I don't particularly care for the
flattened, colorless, boring icons that all OS's seem to be embracing.
Many of the icons no longer visually represent their tasks at all.  And
when one OS does it, the others soon follow also in the 'genericising' of
app appearance.  I am liking the bright colors being used in Material Design

though.
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Re: LiveCode for the rest of us

[Roger Eller]

On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 4:08 PM, Richard Gaskin 
wrote:

> Richmond wrote:
>
> On 22.09.2015 22:46, Richard Gaskin wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Heck, on Windows I'd be thrilled if LC could just not underline menu
>>> mnemonic characters until the Alt key is down.  I haven't seen any
>>> other software work like LC since maybe Win95,
>>>
>>
>> WQow! That's  a fairly sweeping statement.
>>
>> I would be grateful if you could say exactly why.
>>
>
> See the first sentence in what I wrote above.
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>  
>  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>


I use LC every day on Windows, and have never even noticed the mnemonic
characters were visible all the time.  Nor has it bothered me.  But now it
probably will.  Thanks for that Richard!  :)
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Re: LiveCode for the rest of us

[Brahmanathaswami]

Yes, LC is a general construction tool kit, that said... *everything* 
you do in LC other than server side scripting occurs in a visual 
space... sure pure text code apps are possible (think PHP or Ruby) and 
all this LC builder, widget, text only stacks Git hub is exciting but 
the legacy paradigm still is and will remain:


THE CARD VIEW

So, my oft stated request: while it's true many things like auto dBase 
functions can be seen as extras. IMHO the UI is fundamental and LC needs 
to get up to speed to help us build beautiful elegant UI without it 
being quite so challenging. 90% of what I would like to see is there in 
the engine already. I've already sent this to HQ before, but FWIW... 
here goes again:


get a small focus group:

2-3 photoshop interface web designers
2 mobile html 5 CSS wizards who do HTML5 interfaces.
2 graphic designers

put them in a room for two weeks and ask them to build UI... forget 
scripting... just build the eye-candy layer... Make note every time one 
of them complains:


"why is it so hard toin LC."

Of course good design takes experience and training... so that's why you 
don't want to do this experiment with newbies


2 hours = card view = still ugly,
-- still futzing with getting the label of a button to center
-- oh sheesh. can't set the radius of button corners.
-- what? no gradients for buttons? I have to create matching graphic and 
set the pattern of the button to that! or put the graphic behind the 
button and group them? Aiyo!
-- Oh... ouch, the color picker is giving me wrong RGB values when I use 
the dropper to pick color from somewhere else on the screen.
Fortunately I have Eric Chatonet's color widget.. it still works and 
*his* picker gives me the *real* RGB values with its eye dropper..mercy 
on newbies trying to use the native color picker! God help them...

-- Hmmm.. why align  objects isn't just be there in the menubar?
-- OMG... typesetting support is all over the place, here, there, over 
there... this palette, that property.

-- Oh where can I set the design grid unit values? Oh, no grids?
-- where is my hide and show design grid? Oh right.. no grids...
-- Oh, where do I turn on "snap to grid" Oops right... no grid...  but 
this is 2015!
-- I just want to bump the text font size of the selected objects  up 
and down together... where's the key stroke for that?
-- Animation: I'm not looking to do Disney characters... or skins for 
Unity characters... I just want an object to move smoothly across the 
screen from point A to point B...So I have to code that? ok... but why 
is it so jerky... it's not smooth... like if I do css animation, it's 
smooth as skates on ice...flowing water... what's with LC?


I could go on with a long, long list... 90% of which could be supported 
today by the engine as it is


4 hours later card view = still ugly... experienced designer is 
exhausted possibly, if not the patient type of person... exasperated


What we need is:

1-2 hours = card view =  looking really elegant!  (assuming designer has 
the skills, but needs the UI tools)


IMHO  lack of this modern presentation layer tool box goes very much 
against the goal of early adoption by newbies of LC as a tool of choice. 
I can consciously and rationally accept that, OK, complex dBase 
functions may be something I should be responsible to build and will 
have to face a learning curve there, or if I have enterprise money I can 
pay for the big guns to help...


but I cannot consciously rationalize acceptance of a platform that locks 
me into "ugly" no matter how hard I try,


Despite the claims of enormous productivity... so cool I can script 
stuff in a few hours that might take days in php or html5, I get 
that. but then I have to spend "days" just getting the UI to look 
good?  doesn't add up.


 Front end/Prototyping dev, without code is 75% of the production 
process. Showing UI to clients and stake holders *before* we write one 
line of code... So if LC cannot facilitate that.. we have to look for 
another tool.. or I get bizarre interface build in Illustrator snipped 
because the designer says "I can't do, don't trust... anything in LC... 
can you make it look like this?"


SO if I work in a team where design can be separated from the 
"engineering" ...we need to have an interface/toolbox that can sit side 
by side Photoshop, illustrator, After effects on the desktop of the "eye 
candy experts" who will fuss forever on the colors for the two ends of a 
gradient  that's their job and if LC cannot enable them to do their 
job... LC can't fly in a team space with designers and coders at 
separate desks, only in a Scott Rossi space where UI = Engineering skills


BR


Mark Wieder wrote:


That said, I absolutely agree that LiveCode needs that out-of-the-box 
magic that hooked us all in the first place. Knowing that all that 
power is in there somewhere isn't enough. That initial Aha! spark is 
an empowering Maker moment and people need to 

Re: LiveCode for the rest of us

[Brahmanathaswami]

We appreciate everyone pointing out the plugins made some of these 
features, but i was trying to make a  point:


if someone opens LC for the first time... she won't be knowing anything 
about plug-ins for what she considers "standard layout engine" features..


FYI, we are abandoning Google apps (docs email, sheets sites etc..) here 
and moving to Microsoft365


It's been years since I worked in MS Word and Excel... I have to say 
that the old "antipathy" for all things Windows is pretty much gone, 
these apps look great! finally I won't have to pull my hair like I do in 
Google Docs to get something formatted...


MS Word's new model for switching tool sets at the top of the window is 
pretty powerful..


Something like that for LC would be awesome.


Bob Sneidar wrote:

Someone wrote a plugin to address this.

Bob S


On Sep 21, 2015, at 10:41 , J. Landman 
Gay>  wrote:

-- Oh where can I set the design grid unit values? Oh, no grids?

-- where is my hide and show design grid? Oh right.. no grids...
-- Oh, where do I turn on "snap to grid" Oops right... no grid...


Yes, there's been a grid since MetaCard. It's set to either 1 or 2 px by default 
(can't remember, I changed it) so you probably didn't notice it was there. Toggle it 
on/off from the View menu. Set the size of the grid in Preferences ->  Appearance 
->  Grid spacing. However, there are no visible lines for the grid, so maybe 
that's what you mean.

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Re: LiveCode for the rest of us

[Roland Huettmann]

Dear Mark, dear Brahmanathaswami, dear all

Thank you very much for your comments. They stir more thinking... )

But if LC is not a graphics tool, not a database tool, not a network tool,
what is it then?

Is it a front-end tool to develop rich interface for various operating
systems? How well does it do this job?

And Brahmanathaswami is pointing out a number of important missing points.

When the level of sophistication goes up - and I am just talking of front
end functionality - then the show is over quickly. Or it needs developers
mastering the extra mile - and then the advantage of such tool is quickly
lost in comparison with other tools and languages on the market.

I have spent many hours - actually weeks - in trying to accomplish
something more sophisticated in LC just on the user interface level - while
other developers doing the same with C# or Java won the race in terms of
how the end product really performed and looked in the end. The end product
is what counts.

And I understand the advantages and disadvantages. I am all for LiveCode
!!!.

But in LC I continuously seem to be developing my own tool set first of all
- (nobody will buy that) - even to accomplish relatively easy tasks. I am
sitting here to develop tools based on tools to feel at ease with my actual
purpose of developing an application (95% database driven). Why do I have
to spend all that time? And why the end product still is missing something
here, and something there? Was this really a good investment of time?

And yes - LC needs to allow for really cool visual design and have a cool
design itself - as it is mainly a front end application builder. Is it?

I happened to watch the roll-out of Hypercard in those old days, and it hit
the Macintosh "masses". But guess what was selling in the end? Even in
those days, the application "Focal Point" of Danny Goodman (such a nice
friendly guy) was making money - not the tool Hypercard. And I translated
it and took it to the European markets localizing and adding functions. It
was a great experience. How many years back? Where are we now? A lot can be
learned even from those experiences.

The point here: Applications serving a purpose may sell. And they must be
"state of the art" at least.

In then end, nobody is asking HOW you made them.

Only in rare cases, and when there are really large developer communities -
 tools sell. And a danger is inherent especially in tools trying to be an
"Eierlegende Wollmilchsau" - a German idiom for something that tries to be
a multi-purpose everything at once. My literal translation: "egg-laying
milk-bearing wool-giving sow".

You can never have enough developers to accomplish that. )

And we all seem to be sitting here opening our beaks as a band of chicks
 expecting the worms to be crammed into our throats. )

How could Kevin ever accomplish that? My highest admiration on one side. My
sorrowful face on the other.

Certainly, I am aware of the promises of LC 8 ))). It is a great promise.

Roland
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Re: LiveCode for the rest of us

[J. Landman Gay]

At least some of the things you mention are already there, but are easy 
to miss.


On 9/21/2015 1:57 AM, Brahmanathaswami wrote:

-- still futzing with getting the label of a button to center


See the new "iconGravity" property.


-- Oh... ouch, the color picker is giving me wrong RGB values when I use
the dropper to pick color from somewhere else on the screen.
Fortunately I have Eric Chatonet's color widget.. it still works and
*his* picker gives me the *real* RGB values


I never noticed this. I wonder if it has something to do with the gamma 
and/or display settings on the machine. I believe LC returns the values 
that are reflected by the monitor rather than the actual numbers that 
were set in LC (or maybe it's the other way around.)



-- Hmmm.. why align  objects isn't just be there in the menubar?


Objects -> Align Selected Controls


-- OMG... typesetting support is all over the place, here, there, over
there... this palette, that property.


I agree. And there are some very nice newer additions that haven't made 
it to the property inspector at all, and must be applied via the message 
box.



-- Oh where can I set the design grid unit values? Oh, no grids?

> -- where is my hide and show design grid? Oh right.. no grids...
> -- Oh, where do I turn on "snap to grid" Oops right... no grid...

Yes, there's been a grid since MetaCard. It's set to either 1 or 2 px by 
default (can't remember, I changed it) so you probably didn't notice it 
was there. Toggle it on/off from the View menu. Set the size of the grid 
in Preferences -> Appearance -> Grid spacing. However, there are no 
visible lines for the grid, so maybe that's what you mean.



-- Animation: I'm not looking to do Disney characters... or skins for
Unity characters... I just want an object to move smoothly across the
screen from point A to point B...So I have to code that? ok... but why
is it so jerky... it's not smooth... like if I do css animation, it's
smooth as skates on ice...flowing water... what's with LC?


You do have to code it, and that's what acceleratedRendering does along 
with the layerMode setting for each object. I'd like to see a blog post 
about this because it's not something that's readily apparent and does 
require some specialized tinkering. But once it works, animation is 
pretty good.


Good points about the other things in the list that I didn't include. 
Some of them, like changing text size with a keystroke, could be done 
without too much work and submitted as a contribution to the IDE. If I 
had more time I'd do it myself. If things calm down here, maybe I will. 
I hope that won't prevent someone else from trying though.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: LiveCode for the rest of us

[BNig]

> -- Oh where can I set the design grid unit values? Oh, no grids? 
> -- where is my hide and show design grid? Oh right.. no grids... 
> -- Oh, where do I turn on "snap to grid" Oops right... no grid...  but 
> this is 2015! 

In addition to what Jaque said (that you can set it via preferencese and
from the "View" menu)you might want to have a look at
-
http://livecodeshare.runrev.com/stack/757/GridDrawer
-

until visual feedback for grid is build in this plug-in might be helpful

Kind regards
Bernd



--
View this message in context: 
http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/LiveCode-for-the-rest-of-us-tp4696424p4696508.html
Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Re: LiveCode for the rest of us

[Bob Sneidar]

Someone wrote a plugin to address this.

Bob S


On Sep 21, 2015, at 10:41 , J. Landman Gay 
> wrote:

-- Oh where can I set the design grid unit values? Oh, no grids?
> -- where is my hide and show design grid? Oh right.. no grids...
> -- Oh, where do I turn on "snap to grid" Oops right... no grid...

Yes, there's been a grid since MetaCard. It's set to either 1 or 2 px by 
default (can't remember, I changed it) so you probably didn't notice it was 
there. Toggle it on/off from the View menu. Set the size of the grid in 
Preferences -> Appearance -> Grid spacing. However, there are no visible lines 
for the grid, so maybe that's what you mean.

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RE: LiveCode for the rest of us

[Ralph DiMola]

+1

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdim...@evergreeninfo.net

-Original Message-
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
Of Mark Wieder
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 9:20 PM
To: How to use LiveCode
Subject: Re: LiveCode for the rest of us

On 09/18/2015 04:40 PM, Peter Haworth wrote:

> I guess I'm going to have to find time to get SQLMagic finished ( 
> http://www.lcsql.com/sqlmagic.html).

Yes, please.

--
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: LiveCode for the rest of us

[Mark Wieder]

Roland-

A few thoughts without in any way trying to detract or distract from 
your wonderful post:


FileMaker and LiveCode are different products aimed at different 
audiences. FileMaker is essentially a one-trick pony: it does an 
excellent job at providing an easy-to-use front end for database design 
and use, and probably does a better job at this than any other tool I've 
seen on the market. Ever. Its scripting language gives you the ability 
to string together predefined macros, and while these are mostly 
adequate for any database job you are constructing, you can't modify 
them or add new ones, so you sometimes end up with rather awkward 
constructions and tables that may not always be linked up in intuitive ways.


LiveCode, on the other hand, is designed to be a construction kit that 
provides an extensible toolbox for general-purpose applications. Some of 
the database functions require more work because LC isn't designed 
primarily as a database tool. It's also not designed to be a graphics 
tool, although it's possible to do some amazing graphics work in LC if 
you happen to be Scott Rossi. It's not a network tool, although for many 
tasks all the networking features are there. And on and on.


Yes, I'd love to have FileMaker-like database-aware controls in 
LiveCode. I'd love to have a lot of other things as well. Some of these 
are in progress, some can be added through third-party extensions, some 
need to wait for LiveCode Builder in LC8, some you may have to create 
yourself or wait for someone else to do it for you.


That said, I absolutely agree that LiveCode needs that out-of-the-box 
magic that hooked us all in the first place. Knowing that all that power 
is in there somewhere isn't enough. That initial Aha! spark is an 
empowering Maker moment and people need to experience it in their first 
brush with the environment.


--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: LiveCode for the rest of us

[FlexibleLearning.com]

 > On 9/19/15, 1:59, R.H. wrote:

> > Why not there is a field that can easily be set to display
> > international date and time formats and automatically would default to
> > local standards without having to script a lot and redoing the same
> > work over and over again? Why not a field can be defined to represent
> > whatever data it should provide and automatically check user input?

FieldFormatter does this and is available from
www.flexiblelearning.com/fieldformatter

Hugh Senior
FLCo


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Re: LiveCode for the rest of us

[tfabacher]

Thanks Roland for the email.  What you have described was exactly what Visual 
Basic programmers were saying in the early 90s. The solution to the VB problem 
was the ability to create COM objects. 

What you described as your primary frustrations will evaporate with LC8. You 
will be able to enjoy the simplicity of the language and the ease of use of 
complex objects. A complex object would be say a calendar or scheduler. If you 
need to create this in LC today, it can take you many frustrating days [trust 
me I have had them]. But once there is an available widget as open source or 
for sales, your frustrations will go way down and your productive will go way 
up. 

LiveCode development is about to enter a new renaissance. But on your seat 
belts. You will look back in a year and be amazed with the changes that will be 
coming. 

--Todd

Sent from my iPad

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Re: LiveCode for the rest of us

[Peter Haworth]

I guess I'm going to have to find time to get SQLMagic finished (
http://www.lcsql.com/sqlmagic.html).  Been distracted with other projects
for a while.

On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 4:02 PM Tim Selander  wrote:

> Roland,
>
> Amen, preach it brother!
>
> Filemaker with xTalk replacing FM's miserable "scripting."  I
> have been looking for that product, to no avail, since the demise
> of HyperCard.
>
> Tim Selander
> Tokyo, Japan
>
>
> On 9/19/15, 1:59, R.H. wrote:
> > Following the really interesting discussions on this list for two years,
> > enjoying the verve with which those developers in Edinburgh are trying to
> > stitch the pieces together – and I know how much dedication this requires
> > supporting so many different platforms and aspects of the LiveCode
> engine –
> > and I want to thank them and support them  - I think, not being a
> hard-core
> > programmer, just maybe an advanced user, just someone with ideas about
> > possible applications, I sometimes feel a bit lost.
> >
> >
> > I enjoy the smart contributions seen here on the list, maybe it from
> Monte,
> > or Peter, or Rick or whoever.
> >
> >
> > So, I am not sure my contribution here would lead to another thread about
> > LiveCode and how the "rest of us" – the non programmers – might see it.
> It
> > is just my very subjective contribution as a non-programmer.
> >
> >
> > Even I am thinking often, how such group of dedicated LiveCode mothership
> > developers could receive more support, or how the business model for them
> > would work out. Because without money nothing can be done. For example, I
> > am paying for a Microsoft membership, for Adobe creative tools, for
> Google
> > Cloud space, for a dedicated VPN to allow myself to not being detected
> as a
> > Swiss user only (10 dollars per month), I am paying 5 bucks for my daily
> > coffee in the coffee shop.
> >
> >
> > Assuming 100,000 paying LiveCode customers, every one paying 10 dollars
> > each month, it would be sufficient to get things really going and
> inviting
> > many more supporters and developers to be on board. If it does not reach
> > big numbers, what would be the future of LiveCode? It has to grow BIG.
> >
> >
> > To me and my clients, the front end usability is what we see and what we
> > want.
> >
> >
> > I love LiveCode for its language and doing what I tell it to do (more or
> > less) with simple English expressions. I question it for not providing me
> > the necessary building blocks of an integrated framework allowing to do
> > simple things without having to worry about the details. I do not really
> > like its current standard visual interface, and it requires quite some
> work
> > to make this interface shine and be really usable to end users.
> >
> >
> > I love Filemaker as one of the tools I am using for in-house-development,
> > but I hate its scripting language and its slow upgrade cycle, its many
> > limitations, and for a small company it is already much too costly to
> > distribute solutions to other users. It is not a language. It is just a
> > nice database application development engine.
> >
> >
> > What I am up to in my contribution would be the vision that LiveCode
> would
> > introduce aspects of something like Filemaker.
> >
> >
> > I am convinced that the majority of paying users (monthly 10 dollars)
> would
> > be business people, smallest companies for 1-10 people - but they have
> > business needs – and business almost always needs database applications.
> > So, we are talking about database driven applications.
> >
> >
> > Such apps are not made just for fun or done as a hobby, or to develop a
> lot
> > of games. There is a definite business reason, abiding to platform
> specific
> > usability guidelines, looking sexy, and doing what they have to do for
> lots
> > of end users, non programmers, just users like you and me. And a business
> > is ready to pay for that. Business is not paying for games. The game
> market
> > is a different market, even though game-like presentations are sometimes
> > also very useful. ( I am not against using LiveCode for game-development
> or
> > anything to not be misunderstood ))).
> >
> >
> > The Filemaker market is already big enough. I am sure many Filemaker
> users
> > and developers would switch to LiveCode if it would provide a similar
> ease
> > of development and deployment. And that means possibly using the new-born
> > widgets technology.
> >
> >
> > But today, I am still much faster in developing a small solution for a
> > company using Filemaker compared to LiveCode. Much faster!
> >
> >
> > Why not there is a field that can easily be set to display international
> > date and time formats and automatically would default to local standards
> > without having to script a lot and redoing the same work over and over
> > again? Why not a field can be defined to represent whatever data it
> should
> > provide and automatically check user input? Why not there are classes of
> > 

Re: LiveCode for the rest of us

[Richard Gaskin]

Tim Selander wrote:

Filemaker with xTalk replacing FM's miserable "scripting."  I
have been looking for that product, to no avail, since the demise
of HyperCard.


Some of that excellent post is even bigger than making a FileMaker clone:

I can think of few things that would deliver a higher ROI than having 
input filter and display format properties for fields.


Very few apps *don't* need those, and for all the ostensible "ease" of 
programming with LiveCode, once newcomers see how tedious it is to have 
to hand-craft solutions for these sorts of things that so many other 
tools have built-in, it's kind of a turn off.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: LiveCode for the rest of us

[Mark Wieder]

On 09/18/2015 04:40 PM, Peter Haworth wrote:


I guess I'm going to have to find time to get SQLMagic finished (
http://www.lcsql.com/sqlmagic.html).


Yes, please.

--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: LiveCode for the rest of us

[Tim Selander]

Roland,

Amen, preach it brother!

Filemaker with xTalk replacing FM's miserable "scripting."  I 
have been looking for that product, to no avail, since the demise 
of HyperCard.


Tim Selander
Tokyo, Japan


On 9/19/15, 1:59, R.H. wrote:

Following the really interesting discussions on this list for two years,
enjoying the verve with which those developers in Edinburgh are trying to
stitch the pieces together – and I know how much dedication this requires
supporting so many different platforms and aspects of the LiveCode engine –
and I want to thank them and support them  - I think, not being a hard-core
programmer, just maybe an advanced user, just someone with ideas about
possible applications, I sometimes feel a bit lost.


I enjoy the smart contributions seen here on the list, maybe it from Monte,
or Peter, or Rick or whoever.


So, I am not sure my contribution here would lead to another thread about
LiveCode and how the "rest of us" – the non programmers – might see it. It
is just my very subjective contribution as a non-programmer.


Even I am thinking often, how such group of dedicated LiveCode mothership
developers could receive more support, or how the business model for them
would work out. Because without money nothing can be done. For example, I
am paying for a Microsoft membership, for Adobe creative tools, for Google
Cloud space, for a dedicated VPN to allow myself to not being detected as a
Swiss user only (10 dollars per month), I am paying 5 bucks for my daily
coffee in the coffee shop.


Assuming 100,000 paying LiveCode customers, every one paying 10 dollars
each month, it would be sufficient to get things really going and inviting
many more supporters and developers to be on board. If it does not reach
big numbers, what would be the future of LiveCode? It has to grow BIG.


To me and my clients, the front end usability is what we see and what we
want.


I love LiveCode for its language and doing what I tell it to do (more or
less) with simple English expressions. I question it for not providing me
the necessary building blocks of an integrated framework allowing to do
simple things without having to worry about the details. I do not really
like its current standard visual interface, and it requires quite some work
to make this interface shine and be really usable to end users.


I love Filemaker as one of the tools I am using for in-house-development,
but I hate its scripting language and its slow upgrade cycle, its many
limitations, and for a small company it is already much too costly to
distribute solutions to other users. It is not a language. It is just a
nice database application development engine.


What I am up to in my contribution would be the vision that LiveCode would
introduce aspects of something like Filemaker.


I am convinced that the majority of paying users (monthly 10 dollars) would
be business people, smallest companies for 1-10 people - but they have
business needs – and business almost always needs database applications.
So, we are talking about database driven applications.


Such apps are not made just for fun or done as a hobby, or to develop a lot
of games. There is a definite business reason, abiding to platform specific
usability guidelines, looking sexy, and doing what they have to do for lots
of end users, non programmers, just users like you and me. And a business
is ready to pay for that. Business is not paying for games. The game market
is a different market, even though game-like presentations are sometimes
also very useful. ( I am not against using LiveCode for game-development or
anything to not be misunderstood ))).


The Filemaker market is already big enough. I am sure many Filemaker users
and developers would switch to LiveCode if it would provide a similar ease
of development and deployment. And that means possibly using the new-born
widgets technology.


But today, I am still much faster in developing a small solution for a
company using Filemaker compared to LiveCode. Much faster!


Why not there is a field that can easily be set to display international
date and time formats and automatically would default to local standards
without having to script a lot and redoing the same work over and over
again? Why not a field can be defined to represent whatever data it should
provide and automatically check user input? Why not there are classes of
fields that can be defined behaving the same using a domain-like concept?


Why not there is a data grid working like a portal in Filemaker, just
allowing to insert whatever we want, buttons and pictures, fields and
menus? I do not have the time to work with the details of the current data
grid – except for simple text input. Why should I have to script myself all
the small bits and pieces? It needs too much time. And if fields are
connected with an underlying database, I want to see the updates
immediately. And why not there is a data input mechanism - add data, edit
data, remove data, show data