Re: Made with . . .

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

If Waddingham is getting only chocolates it's time he changed his job.

I hope that Kevin is also giving him flowers!

Richmond.

On 8/3/17 6:11 pm, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote:

Shouldn't you be getting the chocolates? ;-)

Bob S



On Aug 2, 2017, at 16:47 , Mark Waddingham via use-livecode 
 wrote:

Warmest Regards,

Mark.

P.S. I didn't write the above to dispute your point - merely to use it to hint 
at a deeper truth... Which Richmond's pupil realised and hence bought 
chocolates as a result :)

Sent from my iPhone


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Re: Made with . . .

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

Shouldn't you be getting the chocolates? ;-)

Bob S


> On Aug 2, 2017, at 16:47 , Mark Waddingham via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Warmest Regards,
> 
> Mark.
> 
> P.S. I didn't write the above to dispute your point - merely to use it to 
> hint at a deeper truth... Which Richmond's pupil realised and hence bought 
> chocolates as a result :)
> 
> Sent from my iPhone


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Re: Made with . . .

[Mark Waddingham via use-livecode]

I'm not sure the learning of C and its relatively difficulty was the point here.

Find me a book on C which teaches you how to create a window, show a button and 
have that button pop up a modal dialog which says 'hello world' on Android, 
HTML5, iOS, Linux, Mac and Windows then *that* would be interesting (if only to 
show how ridiculous using C to write user facing applications is!)

Oh, and also, they have to be 'bare OS metal' - ie from scratch - only core 
libraries on all platforms allowed (so no wxWidgets, QT or whatever!) and also 
they need to teach enough to be able to get you to understand enough to do a 
great deal more than that trivial case.

Only when you consider it from that point of view does the true power - 
relative to C - of LiveCode (and very high level languages) become apparent.

Ah - and you'll also need to write the (shell) scripts to build your app and 
run it!

Having books which 'teach you' a language is one thing - having books which 
could teach you to do what LiveCode does for you would actually be a library. 
LiveCode does a lot of stuff for you so you can actually focus on what you are 
wanting to achieve.

After all there's a huge gap between being able to write English; and being 
able to write a novel in English which someone would want to buy.

Warmest Regards,

Mark.

P.S. I didn't write the above to dispute your point - merely to use it to hint 
at a deeper truth... Which Richmond's pupil realised and hence bought 
chocolates as a result :)

Sent from my iPhone

> On 3 Aug 2017, at 00:43, Alejandro Tejada via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi Richmond,
> 
> Some years ago, Alex Tweedly recommended this book
> to learn C. I bought this for US$ 30 on Amazon:
> https://www.amazon.com/Illustrating-C-Ansi-Iso-Version/dp/0521468213
> 
> More recently, another developer recommended this 2015 book:
> https://www.amazon.com/Programming-Absolute-Beginners-Guide-3rd/dp/0789751984/
> 
> Al
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Re: Made with . . .

[Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode]

Reading the comments on amazon for the 2nd book i read something about a 
computer science course of Harvard called CS50.
A little search gave me this URL which let you take this course for free. 
http://cs50.tv/2016/fall/ 

The about section at that page says: Even if you are not a student at Harvard, 
you are welcome to "take" this course via cs50.tv by following along via the 
Internet. (The course's own website is at cs50.harvard.edu 
.) Available at right are videos of lectures, 
walkthroughs, and seminars along with PDFs of all handouts. Also available at 
right are the course's problem sets.

Maybe this is of interest for one or the other.

Matthias


Matthias Rebbe
+49 5741 31
‌matthiasrebbe.eu ‌

> Am 03.08.2017 um 00:43 schrieb Alejandro Tejada via use-livecode 
> >:
> 
> Hi Richmond,
> 
> Some years ago, Alex Tweedly recommended this book
> to learn C. I bought this for US$ 30 on Amazon:
> https://www.amazon.com/Illustrating-C-Ansi-Iso-Version/dp/0521468213 
> 
> 
> More recently, another developer recommended this 2015 book:
> https://www.amazon.com/Programming-Absolute-Beginners-Guide-3rd/dp/0789751984/
>  
> 
> 
> Al
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> preferences:
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Re: Made with . . .

[Dr. Hawkins via use-livecode]

On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 2:33 PM, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

>
>
> I will be forever grateful to the Livecode team that they have saved me
> from having to learn C++.
>

I've lost track of how many languages I've learned and used over the last
decades.  I've even written major sections in languages that I didn't
bother to learn, and edited code in languages I've never learned.

They all come back easily--except C and especially C++.  I have to relearn
these every time (OK, C scope and variable return sticks around.  Boy do I
want {} scoping in LiveCode, but I digress).

Even having written a mail merge feature for LyX that danced circles around
what MS Word could do at the time (or, I believe, that it can do now) in C
(or was it C++), it rushed back out of my brain as quickly as it could  . .
.

As long as I remember that there is no such construct as "send someMessage
to every control on this card", I can come back to hypertalk at full speed
after years of not using it . . . (then again, I"m one of those people that
remembers the Calculus "chain rule" several years later when I needed it
[and got it right!])




-- 
Dr. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
(702) 508-8462
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Re: Made with . . .

[Mark Waddingham via use-livecode]

Well they do say 'out of the mouths of babes'.

At the very least it helps us to reinforce the fact that 'we' have a purpose :)

Warmest Regards,

Mark.

Sent from my iPhone

> On 2 Aug 2017, at 23:33, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> That's a very good explanation,
> 
> Thank you very much indeed.
> 
> I had a "small problem" with a teenager in my programming classes who asked:
> 
> "If Livecode is written using C++ why don't we just bypass Livecode 
> completely?"
> 
> Which prove that his English is up to a high standard :)
> 
> I found a book in a junk shop that was an introduction to C++ and sent him 
> home with it and asked
> him to start teaching himself C++ and to duplicate the simplest exercise 
> stacks we were doing in the classes.
> 
> On the Monday he turned up with a big box of chocolates for me and an apology.
> 
> I will be forever grateful to the Livecode team that they have saved me from 
> having to learn C++.
> 
> Richmond.
> 
>> On 8/2/17 9:07 pm, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:
>> Increasingly less - and in contrast the amount that could be done in LC 
>> instead of C++ continues to increase (far more slowly than I'd like - but 
>> hey, if wishes were horses...)
>> 
>> Indeed, a lot of the 'heavy lifting' seen in the engine comes down to either 
>> the core abstractions which the LiveCode script language requires (i.e. the 
>> VM), direct access to C exposed APIs, or for speed.
>> 
>> For example a lot of 'compound' operations such as the set operation 
>> commands can be implemented in LCS - indeed it is a very readable way to 
>> define their behaviour - but become far more effective for large arrays if 
>> done in C++ (i.e. for optimisation purposes). Although that is largely 
>> because we don't have a native code compiler for LCS.
>> 
>> LCB has started to provide more of what is needed to 'get away from C++' - 
>> admittedly its performance is not great as yet, but for its current purposes 
>> it is more than sufficient. In particular, UI elements generally require 
>> little 'hardcore' performance - just rendering and property marshalling; 
>> similarly, wrapping system and third-party APIs to the level where they are 
>> 'more natural' in LCS mainly just requires appropriate type mapping and 
>> indexing of objects (enter LCB).
>> 
>> LiveCode Script is a complete programming language in its own right; it 
>> lacks direct access to third-party APIs certainly, however it is perhaps 
>> surprising how much outside of user interaction related tasks require that. 
>> Even in 7+, it's speed is perfectly reasonable for 'reasonably sized' 
>> computational tasks (for certain types of thing it is actually much more 
>> memory efficient due to copy on write being used for values - which increase 
>> the memory size of tasks, if not speed).
>> 
>> As a mode of expression of algorithms, it perhaps start to approach Knuth's 
>> idea of 'literate programming' *without* using a blended typesetting + code 
>> approach (which is how TeX and MetaFont are written, for example).
>> 
>> So, if for that reason alone there's rarely harm in writing something in LCS 
>> first, and *then* taking to rewrite critical parts in a lower level language 
>> if required for speed reasons.
>> 
>> Warmest Regards,
>> 
>> Mark.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On 2 Aug 2017, at 13:50, Klaus major-k via use-livecode 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Richmond,
>>> 
 Am 02.08.2017 um 13:43 schrieb Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode 
 :
 
 " remember that LC is made with LC, so everything in the IDE is a stack 
 resp. scripted and can be modified!"
 recently claimed by someone elsewhere [Hi, Klaus :) ]
>>> hi mate! :-)
>>> 
 BUT: it that really true?
 Why do I have a funny feeling that a lot of the "heavy lifting" is done 
 with C++ ?
>>> Yes, that is true, except for the engine and its functionality which is 
>>> made with C++ or whatever.
>>> 
 Richmond.
>>> Best
>>> 
>>> Klaus
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Klaus Major
>>> http://www.major-k.de
>>> kl...@major-k.de
>>> 
>>> 
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>>> subscription preferences:
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>> 
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Re: Made with . . .

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

That's a very good explanation,

Thank you very much indeed.

I had a "small problem" with a teenager in my programming classes who asked:

"If Livecode is written using C++ why don't we just bypass Livecode 
completely?"


Which prove that his English is up to a high standard :)

I found a book in a junk shop that was an introduction to C++ and sent 
him home with it and asked
him to start teaching himself C++ and to duplicate the simplest exercise 
stacks we were doing in the classes.


On the Monday he turned up with a big box of chocolates for me and an 
apology.


I will be forever grateful to the Livecode team that they have saved me 
from having to learn C++.


Richmond.

On 8/2/17 9:07 pm, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:

Increasingly less - and in contrast the amount that could be done in LC instead 
of C++ continues to increase (far more slowly than I'd like - but hey, if 
wishes were horses...)

Indeed, a lot of the 'heavy lifting' seen in the engine comes down to either 
the core abstractions which the LiveCode script language requires (i.e. the 
VM), direct access to C exposed APIs, or for speed.

For example a lot of 'compound' operations such as the set operation commands 
can be implemented in LCS - indeed it is a very readable way to define their 
behaviour - but become far more effective for large arrays if done in C++ (i.e. 
for optimisation purposes). Although that is largely because we don't have a 
native code compiler for LCS.

LCB has started to provide more of what is needed to 'get away from C++' - 
admittedly its performance is not great as yet, but for its current purposes it 
is more than sufficient. In particular, UI elements generally require little 
'hardcore' performance - just rendering and property marshalling; similarly, 
wrapping system and third-party APIs to the level where they are 'more natural' 
in LCS mainly just requires appropriate type mapping and indexing of objects 
(enter LCB).

LiveCode Script is a complete programming language in its own right; it lacks 
direct access to third-party APIs certainly, however it is perhaps surprising 
how much outside of user interaction related tasks require that. Even in 7+, 
it's speed is perfectly reasonable for 'reasonably sized' computational tasks 
(for certain types of thing it is actually much more memory efficient due to 
copy on write being used for values - which increase the memory size of tasks, 
if not speed).

As a mode of expression of algorithms, it perhaps start to approach Knuth's 
idea of 'literate programming' *without* using a blended typesetting + code 
approach (which is how TeX and MetaFont are written, for example).

So, if for that reason alone there's rarely harm in writing something in LCS 
first, and *then* taking to rewrite critical parts in a lower level language if 
required for speed reasons.

Warmest Regards,

Mark.

Sent from my iPhone


On 2 Aug 2017, at 13:50, Klaus major-k via use-livecode 
 wrote:

Hi Richmond,


Am 02.08.2017 um 13:43 schrieb Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode 
:

" remember that LC is made with LC, so everything in the IDE is a stack resp. 
scripted and can be modified!"
recently claimed by someone elsewhere [Hi, Klaus :) ]

hi mate! :-)


BUT: it that really true?
Why do I have a funny feeling that a lot of the "heavy lifting" is done with 
C++ ?

Yes, that is true, except for the engine and its functionality which is made 
with C++ or whatever.


Richmond.

Best

Klaus

--
Klaus Major
http://www.major-k.de
kl...@major-k.de


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Re: Made with . . .

[Mark Waddingham via use-livecode]

Hah! I missed the IDE bit - 99.99% of the IDE is written in LCS (some widgets 
in LCB).

Pretty much the only bits which aren't are done script introspection features 
(e.g. revAvailableHandlers), the core standalone building part (which fettles 
with executables on each platform) and the mechanism it uses for detecting 
changes in properties.

The latter couldn't be done in LCS as it stands - the rest probably could but 
would be too slow for large scripts and message paths (revAvailableHandlers); 
or where having direct access to the system headers and such in their natural 
state made the code 'easier' to write (although not necessarily on the 
readability / maintenance) side of things.

Warmest Regards,

Mark.

Sent from my iPhone

> On 2 Aug 2017, at 13:43, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> " remember that LC is made with LC, so everything in the IDE is a stack resp. 
> scripted and can be modified!"
> 
> recently claimed by someone elsewhere [Hi, Klaus :) ]
> 
> BUT: it that really true?
> 
> Why do I have a funny feeling that a lot of the "heavy lifting" is done with 
> C++ ?
> 
> Richmond.
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Re: Made with . . .

[Mark Waddingham via use-livecode]

Increasingly less - and in contrast the amount that could be done in LC instead 
of C++ continues to increase (far more slowly than I'd like - but hey, if 
wishes were horses...)

Indeed, a lot of the 'heavy lifting' seen in the engine comes down to either 
the core abstractions which the LiveCode script language requires (i.e. the 
VM), direct access to C exposed APIs, or for speed.

For example a lot of 'compound' operations such as the set operation commands 
can be implemented in LCS - indeed it is a very readable way to define their 
behaviour - but become far more effective for large arrays if done in C++ (i.e. 
for optimisation purposes). Although that is largely because we don't have a 
native code compiler for LCS.

LCB has started to provide more of what is needed to 'get away from C++' - 
admittedly its performance is not great as yet, but for its current purposes it 
is more than sufficient. In particular, UI elements generally require little 
'hardcore' performance - just rendering and property marshalling; similarly, 
wrapping system and third-party APIs to the level where they are 'more natural' 
in LCS mainly just requires appropriate type mapping and indexing of objects 
(enter LCB).

LiveCode Script is a complete programming language in its own right; it lacks 
direct access to third-party APIs certainly, however it is perhaps surprising 
how much outside of user interaction related tasks require that. Even in 7+, 
it's speed is perfectly reasonable for 'reasonably sized' computational tasks 
(for certain types of thing it is actually much more memory efficient due to 
copy on write being used for values - which increase the memory size of tasks, 
if not speed).

As a mode of expression of algorithms, it perhaps start to approach Knuth's 
idea of 'literate programming' *without* using a blended typesetting + code 
approach (which is how TeX and MetaFont are written, for example).

So, if for that reason alone there's rarely harm in writing something in LCS 
first, and *then* taking to rewrite critical parts in a lower level language if 
required for speed reasons.

Warmest Regards,

Mark.

Sent from my iPhone

> On 2 Aug 2017, at 13:50, Klaus major-k via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi Richmond,
> 
>> Am 02.08.2017 um 13:43 schrieb Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode 
>> :
>> 
>> " remember that LC is made with LC, so everything in the IDE is a stack 
>> resp. scripted and can be modified!"
>> recently claimed by someone elsewhere [Hi, Klaus :) ]
> 
> hi mate! :-)
> 
>> BUT: it that really true?
>> Why do I have a funny feeling that a lot of the "heavy lifting" is done with 
>> C++ ?
> 
> Yes, that is true, except for the engine and its functionality which is made 
> with C++ or whatever.
> 
>> Richmond.
> 
> Best
> 
> Klaus
> 
> --
> Klaus Major
> http://www.major-k.de
> kl...@major-k.de
> 
> 
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Re: Made with . . .

[Klaus major-k via use-livecode]

Hi Richmond,

> Am 02.08.2017 um 13:43 schrieb Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode 
> :
> 
> " remember that LC is made with LC, so everything in the IDE is a stack resp. 
> scripted and can be modified!"
> recently claimed by someone elsewhere [Hi, Klaus :) ]

hi mate! :-)

> BUT: it that really true?
> Why do I have a funny feeling that a lot of the "heavy lifting" is done with 
> C++ ?

Yes, that is true, except for the engine and its functionality which is made 
with C++ or whatever.

> Richmond.

Best

Klaus

--
Klaus Major
http://www.major-k.de
kl...@major-k.de


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