Re: mouseenter/mouseleave and pointer tool

[Tom Glod via use-livecode]

Just working in LC now .. I get it now scratch everything I
said.ever.  :/



On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 10:04 PM Jim Lambert via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Good suggestions. Thanks, all.
> Commenting out the answer command makes no difference.
> I quit LC and now cannot reproduce the behavior as it is intermittent.
> Next time it happens I'll try Scott's suggestions with the Tool Palette.
>
> Thanks,
> Jim Lambert
>
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Re: mouseenter/mouseleave and pointer tool

[Jim Lambert via use-livecode]

Good suggestions. Thanks, all.
Commenting out the answer command makes no difference. 
I quit LC and now cannot reproduce the behavior as it is intermittent.
Next time it happens I'll try Scott's suggestions with the Tool Palette.

Thanks,
Jim Lambert

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Re: mouseenter/mouseleave and pointer tool

[Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode]

Scott/Jim,

I often find I MUST click the browse and pointer tool twice before it is
established. I know that is a bug (that I live with without complaint even
- surprising for me, I know!) but I wonder if this, as Scott suggests, is
what is actually going on here. Although in my experiences the highlight
only momentarily sits on the one I click before reverting until I click it
again. Experimenting with it just now I note that if I click on the toolbar
top drag bar before clicking the tool selector it works first time no
problem. But if the focus goes back to the main stack, clicking on the
browse tool (particularly it seems) does not always work first time.
Fascinating!

Sean

On Wed, 31 Mar 2021 at 00:49, scott--- via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> In the video, when you switch tools between Browse and Pointer your cursor
> does not change to reflect this. Not sure whether this visual anomaly  is
> actually happening on your system or if your cursor is being altered by the
> video screen capture software.
>
> Putting the answer dialog inside the mouseEnter handler does make it
> difficult to select.   :- )
>
> —
> Scott
>
> > On Mar 30, 2021, at 1:10 PM, Jim Lambert via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > Actually I'm not entirely crazy.
> > Here is a MOV showing the anomalous   behavior of mouse events executing
> even when the Pointer Tool is active.
> >
> > https://netrin.on-rev.com/videos/lc_select_issue.mov <
> https://netrin.on-rev.com/videos/lc_select_issue.mov>
> >
> > This is intermittent. I don't have a reliable way of reproducing. If I
> did I'd file a bug report or attach an example stack to Klaus' report.
> > Sometimes it is solved by closing and re-opening LC or a different
> version of LC.
> >
> > Odd.
> >
> > Jim Lambert
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Re: mouseenter/mouseleave and pointer tool

[scott--- via use-livecode]

In the video, when you switch tools between Browse and Pointer your cursor does 
not change to reflect this. Not sure whether this visual anomaly  is actually 
happening on your system or if your cursor is being altered by the video screen 
capture software.

Putting the answer dialog inside the mouseEnter handler does make it difficult 
to select.   :- )

—
Scott

> On Mar 30, 2021, at 1:10 PM, Jim Lambert via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Actually I'm not entirely crazy.
> Here is a MOV showing the anomalous   behavior of mouse events executing even 
> when the Pointer Tool is active.
> 
> https://netrin.on-rev.com/videos/lc_select_issue.mov 
> 
> 
> This is intermittent. I don't have a reliable way of reproducing. If I did 
> I'd file a bug report or attach an example stack to Klaus' report.
> Sometimes it is solved by closing and re-opening LC or a different version of 
> LC.
> 
> Odd.
> 
> Jim Lambert
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Re: mouseenter/mouseleave and pointer tool

[Tom Glod via use-livecode]

Hey Jim,

To me its doing what its supposed to be doing.  The messages get sent in
both modes, and have always.

However, selection should be possible even if the mousedown is sent and
received.

So THAT is odd if indeed you cannot select, but you may get that behavior
if you take off the "answer dialog".

On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 4:12 PM Jim Lambert via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Actually I'm not entirely crazy.
> Here is a MOV showing the anomalous behavior of mouse events executing
> even when the Pointer Tool is active.
>
> https://netrin.on-rev.com/videos/lc_select_issue.mov <
> https://netrin.on-rev.com/videos/lc_select_issue.mov>
>
> This is intermittent. I don't have a reliable way of reproducing. If I did
> I'd file a bug report or attach an example stack to Klaus' report.
> Sometimes it is solved by closing and re-opening LC or a different version
> of LC.
>
> Odd.
>
> Jim Lambert
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-- 
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Re: mouseenter/mouseleave and pointer tool

[Klaus major-k via use-livecode]

Hi Jim,

> Am 30.03.2021 um 22:10 schrieb Jim Lambert via use-livecode 
> :
> 
> Actually I'm not entirely crazy.
> Here is a MOV showing the anomalous   behavior of mouse events executing even 
> when the Pointer Tool is active.
> 
> https://netrin.on-rev.com/videos/lc_select_issue.mov 
> 
> 
> This is intermittent. I don't have a reliable way of reproducing. If I did 
> I'd file a bug report or attach an example stack to Klaus' report.
> Sometimes it is solved by closing and re-opening LC or a different version of 
> LC.
> 
> Odd.
> 
> Jim Lambert

OUCH! :-/

Luckily I have only experienced the mouseenter/mouseleave "inconsequence".


Best

Klaus

--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
https://www.major-k.de/bass
kl...@major-k.de


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Re: mouseenter/mouseleave and pointer tool

[Jim Lambert via use-livecode]

Actually I'm not entirely crazy.
Here is a MOV showing the anomalous behavior of mouse events executing even 
when the Pointer Tool is active.

https://netrin.on-rev.com/videos/lc_select_issue.mov 


This is intermittent. I don't have a reliable way of reproducing. If I did I'd 
file a bug report or attach an example stack to Klaus' report.
Sometimes it is solved by closing and re-opening LC or a different version of 
LC.

Odd.

Jim Lambert
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Re: mouseenter/mouseleave and pointer tool

[Klaus major-k via use-livecode]

Hi Richard,

> Am 30.03.2021 um 04:38 schrieb Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
> :
> 
> Jim Lambert wrote:
> 
> > Every time I click on a button in the IDE with the pointer tool
> > in order to select and, say, move it, I'd prefer if the mousedown/up
> > scripts didn't fire off because I'm editing the UI not running it.
> > If I recall correctly this was not how LC/Revolution originally
> > behaved.
> 
> It still does. I don't believed anything with mouse message handling has 
> changed in many years, if at all.

as I wrote this must have started with Revolution 5.x
Engine <=4.x did not fire these messages with POINTER tool selected.

> I haven't seen how Klaus came across the mouseEnter message, so I can't begin 
> to guess how this is only coming to his attention now.

I was working on a customer stack recently, who had this "hover" effect built 
into all of his buttons.
Never noticed this before.

> Either way, with the engine having worked as it does with tool messages since 
> 1992 I'm not expecting change.

Yes, I think I was a bit too hasty with my report, since fixing this 
"inconsequence" will obviously break a lot of stacks.

> > Richard, remember SuperEdit? Very much about authoring.
> I remember it well, as does John Balgenorth and perhaps some others here.
> It was surprisingly polarizing: some loved it, some hated, but I never met 
> anyone who'd used it who was indifferent about it.

I just loved it and rarely switched over to SuperCard! :-)

> I loved it. But I loved everything about the package at that time. Maybe I 
> mostly loved the time. :)
> 
> -- 
> Richard Gaskin

Best

Klaus

--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
https://www.major-k.de/bass
kl...@major-k.de


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Re: mouseenter/mouseleave and pointer tool

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Jim Lambert wrote:

> Every time I click on a button in the IDE with the pointer tool
> in order to select and, say, move it, I'd prefer if the mousedown/up
> scripts didn't fire off because I'm editing the UI not running it.
> If I recall correctly this was not how LC/Revolution originally
> behaved.

It still does. I don't believed anything with mouse message handling has 
changed in many years, if at all.


I haven't seen how Klaus came across the mouseEnter message, so I can't 
begin to guess how this is only coming to his attention now.


Either way, with the engine having worked as it does with tool messages 
since 1992 I'm not expecting change.



> Richard, remember SuperEdit? Very much about authoring.

I remember it well, as does John Balgenorth and perhaps some others here.

It was surprisingly polarizing: some loved it, some hated, but I never 
met anyone who'd used it who was indifferent about it.


I loved it. But I loved everything about the package at that time. 
Maybe I mostly loved the time. :)


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: mouseenter/mouseleave and pointer tool

[scott--- via use-livecode]

I DO remember SuperEdit.  So fast!  But it was a completely “dead” development 
environment. You had to leave it in order to get any messages, IIRC.
—
Scott


> On Mar 29, 2021, at 4:26 PM, Jim Lambert via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
>> Paul wrote:
>> 
>> This is not a bug, but a feature. Our app contains a specialized network 
>> drawing tool and we switch to the pointer tool to allow the user to 
>> interact with drawn objects
> 
> I'd respectfully suggest that is a fringe use case when compared to authoring 
> in the LC IDE.
> Every time I click on a button in the IDE with the pointer tool in order to 
> select and, say, move it, I'd prefer if the mousedown/up scripts didn't fire 
> off because I'm editing the UI not running it. If I recall correctly this was 
> not how LC/Revolution originally behaved.
> 
> Richard, remember SuperEdit? Very much about authoring.
> 
> Jim Lambert
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Re: mouseenter/mouseleave and pointer tool

[Jim Lambert via use-livecode]

I wrote:
> Every time I click on a button in the IDE with the pointer tool in order to 
> select and, say, move it, I'd prefer if the mousedown/up scripts didn't fire 
> off because I'm editing the UI not running it. 
Nevermind. Those scripts are not firing when using the pointer tool.
I'm crazy!!!

Jim Lambert
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Re: mouseenter/mouseleave and pointer tool

[Jim Lambert via use-livecode]

> Paul wrote:
> 
> This is not a bug, but a feature. Our app contains a specialized network 
> drawing tool and we switch to the pointer tool to allow the user to 
> interact with drawn objects

I'd respectfully suggest that is a fringe use case when compared to authoring 
in the LC IDE.
Every time I click on a button in the IDE with the pointer tool in order to 
select and, say, move it, I'd prefer if the mousedown/up scripts didn't fire 
off because I'm editing the UI not running it. If I recall correctly this was 
not how LC/Revolution originally behaved.

Richard, remember SuperEdit? Very much about authoring.

Jim Lambert
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Re: mouseenter/mouseleave and pointer tool

[Paul Dupuis via use-livecode]

This is not a bug, but a feature. Our app contains a specialized network 
drawing tool and we switch to the pointer tool to allow the user to 
interact with drawn objects (buttons and line graphics connecting the 
buttons). We use mouseEnter and mouseLeave to update information about 
the object the person is hovering over as they are in drawing mode. The 
POINTER tool is used to mouse over and select objects in the drawing 
window.


On 3/29/2021 2:07 PM, Klaus major-k via use-livecode wrote:

Hi all,


Klaus wrote:
when the pointer tool is active, "mouseenter" and "mouseleave"
handlers are executed nevertheless!?

I don't this this is correct behaviour!

reported: 


Best

Klaus

--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
https://www.major-k.de/bass
kl...@major-k.de


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Re: mouseenter/mouseleave and pointer tool

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Jim Lambert wrote:

>> Klaus wrote:
>> when the pointer tool is active, "mouseenter" and "mouseleave"
>> handlers are executed nevertheless!?
>>
>> I don't this this is correct behaviour!
>
> I agree.
> When the pointer tool is selected in the IDE one is supposedly in
> Editing Mode.

This is a philosophical point in LC, created by a change in how tool 
modes are presented.


Throughout all of xTalk history, and the history of the LC engine prior 
to its acquisition in 2003, tool modes have always been presented as 
options available to scripters like any other part of the language, 
changeable with the "choose" command.


Most xTalk IDEs have lacked the confidence in their language to also 
build their IDE in their own language, so this was less of an issue for 
HC, OMO, Plus, and others.


But MetaCard, SuperCard, Gain Momentum provided runtime editing of the 
sort we have with LiveCode.  While each had subtly different ways of 
guiding the user to appreciate the differences in tool modes, their 
audiences had less confusion, because they presented tool modes as tool 
modes (language elements like any other available for us all to use), 
rather than attempting to present a more consumer-app experience in 
which the pointer tool is somehow not something a scripter could be 
expected to ever want to use.


LC documents the "choose" command, but is designed in a way that 
attempts to be both an xTalk dev environment and a consumer app, 
resulting in an experience that lends many users to think of the pointer 
tool as somehow not available among the "choose" options.




One of the most powerful moments of my scripting life was when I 
launched SuperCard and was invited to explore one of the sample apps 
that came with it, SampleDraw.  It was basically MacDraw, a decent 
drawing app with vector graphics, document handling, and all that, but 
SampleDraw even more capable, with features like polygon morphing, and 
the whole thing written in xTalk.


That moment of seeing an app I'd known well reimplemented more 
powerfully in a scripting language I enjoyed is what compelled me to 
spend so many years enjoying xTalks.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: mouseenter/mouseleave and pointer tool

[Klaus major-k via use-livecode]

Hi all,

> Klaus wrote:
> when the pointer tool is active, "mouseenter" and "mouseleave"
> handlers are executed nevertheless!? 
> 
> I don't this this is correct behaviour!

reported: 


Best

Klaus

--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
https://www.major-k.de/bass
kl...@major-k.de


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Re: mouseenter/mouseleave and pointer tool

[Jim Lambert via use-livecode]

> Klaus wrote:
> when the pointer tool is active, "mouseenter" and "mouseleave"
> handlers are executed nevertheless!? 
> 
> I don't this this is correct behaviour!

I agree.
When the pointer tool is selected in the IDE one is supposedly in Editing Mode.
To have code execute when you simply enter or select an object you wish to edit 
is counter to the nature of editing, not helpful and, well, plain wrong.

Of course, it's been this way for a long and annoying while. Special case 
drawing apps not withstanding.

Jim Lambert



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Re: mouseenter/mouseleave and pointer tool

[Paul Dupuis via use-livecode]

I think if you are making a drawing app in Livecode, you need mouseEnter 
and mouseLeave with the pointer tool so you can have object scrips 
change the cursor icon to appropriate icons when over certain special 
objects that you want to interact with as objects.


On 3/29/2021 6:31 AM, Klaus major-k via use-livecode wrote:

Hi friends,

when the pointer tool is active, "mouseenter" and "mouseleave"
handlers are executed nevertheless!?

I don't this this is correct behaviour!

For the sake of "conceptional continuity" (©Frank Zappa) then all
other mouse handlers should be executed and we don't want that. :-)
All or nothing, right?

I could swear this was not the case in earlier version, so I searched my
archives and found that this must have started with version 5.x of LC

I have an old MetaCard version with Rev engine 4.1 where this does NOT happen.
But DOES with LC version 5.02

What do you think?


Best

Klaus
--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
https://www.major-k.de/bass
kl...@major-k.de
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Re: mouseenter/mouseleave and pointer tool

[Paul Dupuis via use-livecode]

I think if you are making a drawing app in Livecode, you need mouseEnter 
and mouseLeave with the pointer tool so you can have object scrips 
change the cursor icon to appropriate icons when over certain special 
objects that you want to interact with as objects.



On 3/29/2021 6:17 AM, Klaus major-k via use-livecode wrote:

Hi friends,

when the pointer tool is active, "mouseenter" and "mouseleave"
handlers are executed nevertheless!?

I don't this this is correct behaviour!

For the sake of "conceptional continuity" (©Frank Zappa) then all
other mouse handlers should be executed and we don't want that. :-)
All or nothing, right?

I could swear this was not the case in earlier version, so I searched my
archives and found that this must have started with version 5.x of LC

I have an old MetaCard version with Rev engine 4.1 where this does NOT happen.
But DOES with LC version 5.02

What do you think?


Best

Klaus
--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
https://www.major-k.de/bass
kl...@major-k.de


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Re: mouseenter/mouseleave and pointer tool

[Craig Newman via use-livecode]

Klaus.

I have always seen this. It does seem a little odd,, though. You can always 
place something like this wherever you need to, but I know your question is 
“Why do I need to”

on mouseEnter

if the tool = "browse tool" then pass mouseEnter

end mouseEnter


Craig


> On Mar 29, 2021, at 6:31 AM, Klaus major-k via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi friends,
> 
> when the pointer tool is active, "mouseenter" and "mouseleave"
> handlers are executed nevertheless!? 
> 
> I don't this this is correct behaviour!
> 
> For the sake of "conceptional continuity" (©Frank Zappa) then all 
> other mouse handlers should be executed and we don't want that. :-)
> All or nothing, right?
> 
> I could swear this was not the case in earlier version, so I searched my
> archives and found that this must have started with version 5.x of LC
> 
> I have an old MetaCard version with Rev engine 4.1 where this does NOT happen.
> But DOES with LC version 5.02
> 
> What do you think?
> 
> 
> Best
> 
> Klaus
> --
> Klaus Major
> https://www.major-k.de
> https://www.major-k.de/bass
> kl...@major-k.de
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