Re: Stability of LC 8 DP2?

[Richard Gaskin]

Dar Scott wrote:

> However, I still want to emulate your daring do.  I can take the
> conservative approach you described during the day as the mild
> mannered software developer, but at night, I can put on my cape
> and jump into trying out DPs.

As I think about this more, given that the definition of "Stable" isn't 
in the dictionary sense but in the engineering sense of "no feature 
changes since last build", and given that all versions of 8.x carry 
fixes forward, I'm inclined to believe that the most robust build at any 
given time is usually the one most recently released.


Of course new features introduced in a most recent build will still need 
some testing to make sure they're solid, but any existing features 
should be as good or better than the last "Stable" build given that any 
fixes recently completed will be in the more recent build.


That doesn't account for regressions, but that's also a good argument to 
use the most recent build:  any regression is one for which a test isn't 
already in the automated test system (they use a LOT of automated tools 
to check things before release).  The sooner a bug is discovered and 
reported, the better for everyone.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com


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Re: Stability of LC 8 DP2?

[Dar Scott]

Ah, I get it.  I think I misunderstood "development" in your first comment.  
I'm obtuse at times.  

However, I still want to emulate your daring do.  I can take the conservative 
approach you described during the day as the mild mannered software developer, 
but at night, I can put on my cape and jump into trying out DPs. Of course, in 
my cave I can't tell night from day.  

Anyway, I have a better idea of what you are saying.  


> On Jul 4, 2016, at 3:10 PM, Richard Gaskin  wrote:
> 
> Dar Scott wrote:
> 
> >> On Jul 4, 2016, at 10:15 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote:
> >>
> >> On the contrary, while I recommend using the most recent "Stable"
> >> build for deploying, for development I strongly recommend using
> >> the most recent build with any designation specifically so we can
> >> identify and resolve these issues ASAP.
> >
> > Can you clarify this daring and exhilarating approach to programming?
> >
> > If, in a major run, I hop to 8.1, riding the edge, I am crossing-
> > my-fingers hoping to jump to a stable 8.1 before the due date, but
> > if there is no stable 8.1 as the due date approaches, and I use your
> > deploy-on-stable approach, I need to flip back to 8.0, redoing that
> > which depended on 8.1, making quick corrections, so that by the time
> > I go through the delivery tunnel, all works and all is stable.
> 
> As a general rule I never make business plans involving anything dependent on 
> unreleased software features.
> 
> I've tested software for Adobe, Apple, Oracle, and many others, but I don't 
> make any deployment schedules that involve features unique to any version of 
> any software until two conditions have been met:
> 
> 1. The final shipping version of the software exists.
> 
> 2. I've been able to reasonably verify that it'll do
>   what I need it to do.
> 
> Everything prior to those two conditions being met is effectively just 
> testing (though I tend to get a lot of work done along the way).
> 
> I was a customer of Allegiant SuperCard for Windows, and worked with a 
> company that invested in plans based around QuickTime's HyperCard 3 engine. 
> Stuff happens. Sometimes that stuff is beyond anything anyone could have 
> imagined when the project started.
> 
> So until a feature is in my hands and verified as working, for any business 
> planning purposes it doesn't exist.
> 
> For learning and testing purposes, however, it's invaluable for helping to 
> ensure the final version will do what I need it to do once it's ready.
> 
> -- 
> Richard Gaskin
> Fourth World Systems
> Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
> 
> ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
> 
> 
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Re: Stability of LC 8 DP2?

[Richard Gaskin]

Dar Scott wrote:

>> On Jul 4, 2016, at 10:15 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote:
>>
>> On the contrary, while I recommend using the most recent "Stable"
>> build for deploying, for development I strongly recommend using
>> the most recent build with any designation specifically so we can
>> identify and resolve these issues ASAP.
>
> Can you clarify this daring and exhilarating approach to programming?
>
> If, in a major run, I hop to 8.1, riding the edge, I am crossing-
> my-fingers hoping to jump to a stable 8.1 before the due date, but
> if there is no stable 8.1 as the due date approaches, and I use your
> deploy-on-stable approach, I need to flip back to 8.0, redoing that
> which depended on 8.1, making quick corrections, so that by the time
> I go through the delivery tunnel, all works and all is stable.

As a general rule I never make business plans involving anything 
dependent on unreleased software features.


I've tested software for Adobe, Apple, Oracle, and many others, but I 
don't make any deployment schedules that involve features unique to any 
version of any software until two conditions have been met:


1. The final shipping version of the software exists.

2. I've been able to reasonably verify that it'll do
   what I need it to do.

Everything prior to those two conditions being met is effectively just 
testing (though I tend to get a lot of work done along the way).


I was a customer of Allegiant SuperCard for Windows, and worked with a 
company that invested in plans based around QuickTime's HyperCard 3 
engine. Stuff happens. Sometimes that stuff is beyond anything anyone 
could have imagined when the project started.


So until a feature is in my hands and verified as working, for any 
business planning purposes it doesn't exist.


For learning and testing purposes, however, it's invaluable for helping 
to ensure the final version will do what I need it to do once it's ready.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com


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Re: Stability of LC 8 DP2?

[Dar Scott]

> On Jul 4, 2016, at 10:15 AM, Richard Gaskin  
> wrote:
> 
> On the contrary, while I recommend using the most recent "Stable" build for 
> deploying, for development I strongly recommend using the most recent build 
> with any designation specifically so we can identify and resolve these issues 
> ASAP.

Can you clarify this daring and exhilarating approach to programming?

If, in a major run, I hop to 8.1, riding the edge, I am crossing-my-fingers 
hoping to jump to a stable 8.1 before the due date, but if there is no stable 
8.1 as the due date approaches, and I use your deploy-on-stable approach, I 
need to flip back to 8.0, redoing that which depended on 8.1, making quick 
corrections, so that by the time I go through the delivery tunnel, all works 
and all is stable.  

Are you by any chance a snowboarder?  
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Re: Stability of LC 8 DP2?

[Richard Gaskin]

Paul Hibbert wrote:

> One other thing that may be worth trying is to remove any non-native
> plug-ins and try again. I and several others have had issues with
> plug-ins designed and built with previous versions of LC.
>
> For my home rolled plug-ins I checked them carefully and updated the
> ones I needed in LC8 and they are working fine now.
>
> For any third-party plug-ins, check to see if the developer has
> released an updated version for LC8.
>
> Since doing this I’m finding LC8 to be much more stable and I’m
> mainly using the DP to take advantage of and learn new features.

Excellent tip, though if you do see a problem with a third-party add-on 
please let the developer know.  Ideally LC 8 should be completely 
backward-compatible with 7, so any issues may well be engine regressions 
the author of a plugin may want to report.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com


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Re: Stability of LC 8 DP2?

[Paul Hibbert]

One other thing that may be worth trying is to remove any non-native plug-ins 
and try again. I and several others have had issues with plug-ins designed and 
built with previous versions of LC.

For my home rolled plug-ins I checked them carefully and updated the ones I 
needed in LC8 and they are working fine now.

For any third-party plug-ins, check to see if the developer has released an 
updated version for LC8.

Since doing this I’m finding LC8 to be much more stable and I’m mainly using 
the DP to take advantage of and learn new features.

Paul

> On Jul 4, 2016, at 9:24 AM, Richmond  wrote:
> 
> R. Gaskin is right (as usual):
> 
> Develop on the Stable release.
> 
> Try things out on the Developer Previews, get frustrated, and then file Bug 
> reports;
> this is very important.
> 
> R.
> 
> On 4.07.2016 19:15, Richard Gaskin wrote:
>> On the contrary, while I recommend using the most recent "Stable" build for 
>> deploying, for development I strongly recommend using the most recent build 
>> with any designation specifically so we can identify and resolve these 
>> issues ASAP.
>> 
>> Waiting until after final release only guarantees a previously-unknown issue 
>> will remain in the final release.
>> 
>> @Lagi:  Please submit two bug reports, one for the crasher since of course 
>> crashers need to be resolved ASAP, and another for the text baseline since 
>> no one wants newcomers getting turned off from LiveCode the moment they drop 
>> a control onto a card because it looks wonky.
>> 
> 
> 
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Re: Stability of LC 8 DP2?

[Richmond]

R. Gaskin is right (as usual):

Develop on the Stable release.

Try things out on the Developer Previews, get frustrated, and then file 
Bug reports;

this is very important.

R.

On 4.07.2016 19:15, Richard Gaskin wrote:
On the contrary, while I recommend using the most recent "Stable" 
build for deploying, for development I strongly recommend using the 
most recent build with any designation specifically so we can identify 
and resolve these issues ASAP.


Waiting until after final release only guarantees a previously-unknown 
issue will remain in the final release.


@Lagi:  Please submit two bug reports, one for the crasher since of 
course crashers need to be resolved ASAP, and another for the text 
baseline since no one wants newcomers getting turned off from LiveCode 
the moment they drop a control onto a card because it looks wonky.





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Re: Stability of LC 8 DP2?

[Richard Gaskin]

On the contrary, while I recommend using the most recent "Stable" build 
for deploying, for development I strongly recommend using the most 
recent build with any designation specifically so we can identify and 
resolve these issues ASAP.


Waiting until after final release only guarantees a previously-unknown 
issue will remain in the final release.


@Lagi:  Please submit two bug reports, one for the crasher since of 
course crashers need to be resolved ASAP, and another for the text 
baseline since no one wants newcomers getting turned off from LiveCode 
the moment they drop a control onto a card because it looks wonky.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems

Richmond wrote:


Well; I assume you mean 8.1 which IS a developer preview, so a bit daft to
use for development: 8.0.1 is the Stable release.

Richmond.

On 4.07.2016 15:30, Lagi Pittas wrote:

I started using Livecode 8 (DP1) for a less critical project last week - so
far so good.

I decided to upgrade to DP2 today on my windows 7 system running parallels
on a MAC.

In the space of an hour I have had a blue screen of death in Win 7 (never
happened in 2 years on this p[arallels setup).

And 3 times the whole stack and livecode 8 just vanished without even a
windows message to say it crashed or whatever (the usual when this happens).

All I was doing at the time was increasing the font size on a tab Panel.

Now I don't know if the universe is trying to tell me something - I've been
meaning to ask for over a year now - and it's not fixed on version 8
either. -  the tab panel text labels are STILL too big for the tab
containers - it still looks like an afterthought as the descenders of the
letter "g" "bleed" into the panel and the rest of the letters are sitting
underneath by a pixel or 2 unless I make the text size about 17+ which cuts
down - there is no way to adjust margins - you could say that's to show
that they are not the "focused tab" but in the halcyon days we could change
the colour and text styles of each tab and it's text - so we decided what
looked good or not. Now if the tab panel is a widget I could go in and make
it work the way I want without trying to fight with Visual Studio but I'm
assuming it's not.

Anyway I just left this for 10 minutes to work on my program added a
graphic line to the tab panel - for some reason it get moving to the same
place whatever i did - even locking it's position so I did the equivalent
of switching it on and off again - press delete with the line selected -
VOOM the whole stack and livecode 8 vanished again without a warning of no
responding or a windows error message.

Looks like I'm back to version 6 again for another 6 months.

I really do Hope it's my setup so I will play around on my windows laptop
with the same stack and see what happens.




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Re: Stability of LC 8 DP2?

[Richmond]

Well; I assume you mean 8.1 which IS a developer preview, so a bit daft to
use for development: 8.0.1 is the Stable release.

Richmond.

On 4.07.2016 15:30, Lagi Pittas wrote:

I started using Livecode 8 (DP1) for a less critical project last week - so
far so good.

I decided to upgrade to DP2 today on my windows 7 system running parallels
on a MAC.

In the space of an hour I have had a blue screen of death in Win 7 (never
happened in 2 years on this p[arallels setup).

And 3 times the whole stack and livecode 8 just vanished without even a
windows message to say it crashed or whatever (the usual when this happens).

All I was doing at the time was increasing the font size on a tab Panel.

Now I don't know if the universe is trying to tell me something - I've been
meaning to ask for over a year now - and it's not fixed on version 8
either. -  the tab panel text labels are STILL too big for the tab
containers - it still looks like an afterthought as the descenders of the
letter "g" "bleed" into the panel and the rest of the letters are sitting
underneath by a pixel or 2 unless I make the text size about 17+ which cuts
down - there is no way to adjust margins - you could say that's to show
that they are not the "focused tab" but in the halcyon days we could change
the colour and text styles of each tab and it's text - so we decided what
looked good or not. Now if the tab panel is a widget I could go in and make
it work the way I want without trying to fight with Visual Studio but I'm
assuming it's not.

Anyway I just left this for 10 minutes to work on my program added a
graphic line to the tab panel - for some reason it get moving to the same
place whatever i did - even locking it's position so I did the equivalent
of switching it on and off again - press delete with the line selected -
VOOM the whole stack and livecode 8 vanished again without a warning of no
responding or a windows error message.

Looks like I'm back to version 6 again for another 6 months.

I really do Hope it's my setup so I will play around on my windows laptop
with the same stack and see what happens.


Regards Lagi

p.s.

Went back to do a bit more and got to a stage where I wanted to delete a
two grouped lines and again  pressed the delete key  and voom again I lost
the whole lot no windows error or no responibg dialog

I'm using a Logitech K480 bluetooth keyboard which might have a few foibles
but I can't belive pressing delete on a line would do that without some
problem.. Ill plugin a wired keyboard and see what happens.

Regards Lagi
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Stability of LC 8 DP2?

[Lagi Pittas]

I started using Livecode 8 (DP1) for a less critical project last week - so
far so good.

I decided to upgrade to DP2 today on my windows 7 system running parallels
on a MAC.

In the space of an hour I have had a blue screen of death in Win 7 (never
happened in 2 years on this p[arallels setup).

And 3 times the whole stack and livecode 8 just vanished without even a
windows message to say it crashed or whatever (the usual when this happens).

All I was doing at the time was increasing the font size on a tab Panel.

Now I don't know if the universe is trying to tell me something - I've been
meaning to ask for over a year now - and it's not fixed on version 8
either. -  the tab panel text labels are STILL too big for the tab
containers - it still looks like an afterthought as the descenders of the
letter "g" "bleed" into the panel and the rest of the letters are sitting
underneath by a pixel or 2 unless I make the text size about 17+ which cuts
down - there is no way to adjust margins - you could say that's to show
that they are not the "focused tab" but in the halcyon days we could change
the colour and text styles of each tab and it's text - so we decided what
looked good or not. Now if the tab panel is a widget I could go in and make
it work the way I want without trying to fight with Visual Studio but I'm
assuming it's not.

Anyway I just left this for 10 minutes to work on my program added a
graphic line to the tab panel - for some reason it get moving to the same
place whatever i did - even locking it's position so I did the equivalent
of switching it on and off again - press delete with the line selected -
VOOM the whole stack and livecode 8 vanished again without a warning of no
responding or a windows error message.

Looks like I'm back to version 6 again for another 6 months.

I really do Hope it's my setup so I will play around on my windows laptop
with the same stack and see what happens.


Regards Lagi

p.s.

Went back to do a bit more and got to a stage where I wanted to delete a
two grouped lines and again  pressed the delete key  and voom again I lost
the whole lot no windows error or no responibg dialog

I'm using a Logitech K480 bluetooth keyboard which might have a few foibles
but I can't belive pressing delete on a line would do that without some
problem.. Ill plugin a wired keyboard and see what happens.

Regards Lagi
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