Re: The Roadmap

[Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode]

Thanks Bernard.

Exactly what I think. Only I could not express it that way in English.

Matthias

Matthias Rebbe

free tools for Livecoders:
InstaMaker 
WinSignMaker Mac 

> Am 30.10.2019 um 17:17 schrieb Bernard Devlin via use-livecode 
> mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>>:
> 
> On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 7:00 PM Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > wrote:
> 
>> 
>> If it were up to me I'd ditch it altogether.
>> 
> 
> Whatever frustrations I have with Livecode they are vastly outweighed by
> the things that it can do and the things it can do now that it couldn't do
> a decade ago.
> 
> I don't think people appreciate what an incredible achievement it is.  As I
> used to be a Lotus Notes developer, I can see the contrast.  IBM recently
> sold their Lotus technologies to an Indian company for $1.8bn. Over the
> last ten years a company the size of IBM could not successfully manage the
> development of a cross-platform application development environment.   For
> an entire decade IBM only added the v.9 release and fixpacks (and Notes 9.0
> was actually Notes 8.5.4 but re-branded).
> 
> Notes used to exist in native clients for OS/2, Windows, MacOS.  IBM
> jettisoned the native clients and moved to running the entire thing inside
> the JVM.  It took IBM about 15 years to move from Notes 7 to Notes 10.
> When I recently downloaded Notes 10 to do some programming on thousands of
> emails (the very thing where Notes should shine) the client crashed
> repeatedly on trying to import the emails.  Bear in mind that Notes even
> has a menu action to import emails from a folder, so importing emails to
> process the text is not even something that requires any programming, it's
> that basic to the product.  Having moved from programming in C with all the
> possible problems with pointers and memory allocation, Notes was moved to a
> language with garbage collection and memory management and still the client
> crashes doing basic things it could do 15 years ago.
> 
> By comparison in the last 10 to 15 years Livecode has added app delivery
> for iOS, Android, Linux, Windows64 and HTML5 to Windows32 and OSX.  That's
> more than IBM ever managed to do and a movement in the opposite direction
> to that taken by IBM.  And as well as doing this Livecode re-architected
> the engine.   IBM's major new feature over the last decade (XPages) looks
> like it is now almost certainly going to be thrown away.  By moving to the
> JVM for the development environment IBM was banking on delivering most
> Notes apps as web apps.
> 
> Obviously the Notes servers do a whole range of things that Livecode
> doesn't do.  But these server-side technologies were mostly in the Notes
> product 15 years ago. Going back 15 years ago and Livecode was at v2.5.
> Remember back then?  The clipboarddata was a new thing.  We didn't have a
> built-in web browser, nor multi-dimensional arrays, nor unicode, nor the
> datagrid, nor behaviors, nor widgets, nor xslt,  nor the enhanced liburl.
> That's just off the top of my head.
> 
> IBM with all their resources and access to capital markets couldn't hold
> themselves to their own limited roadmap.  Livecode has successfully moved
> forward with a cross-platform solution when IBM couldn't do so.  And
> without having $billions to play with.  They shouldn't attempt to hold to a
> roadmap when the elephant in the room can't do it.  And IBM never allowed
> businesses to use Notes for free nor did they open the source code.
> Livecode did that and has a free edition which contains probably 99% of the
> functionality of the most expensive license.
> 
> I think many of us lose sight of this small company's achievements.
> 
> Regards, Bernard
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Re: The Roadmap

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

+1

> On Oct 30, 2019, at 09:17 , Bernard Devlin via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 7:00 PM Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> If it were up to me I'd ditch it altogether.
>> 
> 
> Whatever frustrations I have with Livecode they are vastly outweighed by
> the things that it can do and the things it can do now that it couldn't do
> a decade ago.
> 
> I don't think people appreciate what an incredible achievement it is.  As I
> used to be a Lotus Notes developer, I can see the contrast.  IBM recently
> sold their Lotus technologies to an Indian company for $1.8bn. Over the
> last ten years a company the size of IBM could not successfully manage the
> development of a cross-platform application development environment.   For
> an entire decade IBM only added the v.9 release and fixpacks (and Notes 9.0
> was actually Notes 8.5.4 but re-branded).

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Re: The Roadmap

[Mark Wieder via use-livecode]

On 10/30/19 9:17 AM, Bernard Devlin via use-livecode wrote:


IBM with all their resources and access to capital markets couldn't hold
themselves to their own limited roadmap.


...and now IBM has  bought RedHat.

--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: The Roadmap

[Bernard Devlin via use-livecode]

On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 7:00 PM Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

>
> If it were up to me I'd ditch it altogether.
>

 Whatever frustrations I have with Livecode they are vastly outweighed by
the things that it can do and the things it can do now that it couldn't do
a decade ago.

I don't think people appreciate what an incredible achievement it is.  As I
used to be a Lotus Notes developer, I can see the contrast.  IBM recently
sold their Lotus technologies to an Indian company for $1.8bn. Over the
last ten years a company the size of IBM could not successfully manage the
development of a cross-platform application development environment.   For
an entire decade IBM only added the v.9 release and fixpacks (and Notes 9.0
was actually Notes 8.5.4 but re-branded).

Notes used to exist in native clients for OS/2, Windows, MacOS.  IBM
jettisoned the native clients and moved to running the entire thing inside
the JVM.  It took IBM about 15 years to move from Notes 7 to Notes 10.
When I recently downloaded Notes 10 to do some programming on thousands of
emails (the very thing where Notes should shine) the client crashed
repeatedly on trying to import the emails.  Bear in mind that Notes even
has a menu action to import emails from a folder, so importing emails to
process the text is not even something that requires any programming, it's
that basic to the product.  Having moved from programming in C with all the
possible problems with pointers and memory allocation, Notes was moved to a
language with garbage collection and memory management and still the client
crashes doing basic things it could do 15 years ago.

By comparison in the last 10 to 15 years Livecode has added app delivery
for iOS, Android, Linux, Windows64 and HTML5 to Windows32 and OSX.  That's
more than IBM ever managed to do and a movement in the opposite direction
to that taken by IBM.  And as well as doing this Livecode re-architected
the engine.   IBM's major new feature over the last decade (XPages) looks
like it is now almost certainly going to be thrown away.  By moving to the
JVM for the development environment IBM was banking on delivering most
Notes apps as web apps.

Obviously the Notes servers do a whole range of things that Livecode
doesn't do.  But these server-side technologies were mostly in the Notes
product 15 years ago. Going back 15 years ago and Livecode was at v2.5.
Remember back then?  The clipboarddata was a new thing.  We didn't have a
built-in web browser, nor multi-dimensional arrays, nor unicode, nor the
datagrid, nor behaviors, nor widgets, nor xslt,  nor the enhanced liburl.
That's just off the top of my head.

IBM with all their resources and access to capital markets couldn't hold
themselves to their own limited roadmap.  Livecode has successfully moved
forward with a cross-platform solution when IBM couldn't do so.  And
without having $billions to play with.  They shouldn't attempt to hold to a
roadmap when the elephant in the room can't do it.  And IBM never allowed
businesses to use Notes for free nor did they open the source code.
Livecode did that and has a free edition which contains probably 99% of the
functionality of the most expensive license.

I think many of us lose sight of this small company's achievements.

Regards, Bernard
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The Roadmap

[Richmond via use-livecode]

Sorry about starting this as a new thread: email client misbehaving.

Richard Gaskin wrote:

"Richmond wrote:
> Of course if certain long-term stuff from the Kickstarters don't
> appear on the Roadmap it is easier to hold LC to account than if
> the Roadmap were to disappear completely.

Which returns us to the question I posted an hour ago about the Roadmap: 
What purpose does it serve? I can imagine all sorts of reasons one might 
find a roadmap useful. Some may find it useful for planning features 
down the road for one's own products (provided, of course, a solid 
understanding of what a roadmap is, and isn't, is in place); others may 
find it useful for anticipating areas of future contributions to the 
project (new widget opportunities, etc.); others may just find it 
interesting to see how the company envisions growth opportunities as 
reflected in feature sets. There are all sorts of really good reasons 
people might want a roadmap. And then there's yours: "...to hold LC to 
account..." If that's your interest, I see no benefit in keeping the 
Roadmap."




Why should not people who run Kickstarter things not be held to account 
for their promises?


I had a Kickstarter a while ago to raise money for my Devawriter and I 
honoured all my promises.


One of the reasons I was able to honour all my promises was because I 
was very, very careful about what I promised.


Now folk who invest money usually do it expecting some sort of return 
(even if it is only a 'Thank you' from
the homeless person who asks you for a few coins), and ducking one's 
commitments and responsibilities . . .


Are you advocating what it looks like?
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Re: The Roadmap

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Richmond wrote:

> Of course if certain long-term stuff from the Kickstarters don't
> appear on the Roadmap it is easier to hold LC to account than if
> the Roadmap were to disappear completely.

Which returns us to the question I posted an hour ago about the Roadmap:

   What purpose does it serve?

I can imagine all sorts of reasons one might find a roadmap useful. 
Some may find it useful for planning features down the road for one's 
own products (provided, of course, a solid understanding of what a 
roadmap is, and isn't, is in place); others may find it useful for 
anticipating areas of future contributions to the project (new widget 
opportunities, etc.); others may just find it interesting to see how the 
company envisions growth opportunities as reflected in feature sets.


There are all sorts of really good reasons people might want a roadmap.

And then there's yours:

  "...to hold LC to account..."

If that's your interest, I see no benefit in keeping the Roadmap.

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: The Roadmap

[Richmond via use-livecode]

Of course if certain long-term stuff from the Kickstarters don't appear 
on the
Roadmap it is easier to hold LC to account than if the Roadmap were to 
disappear completely.


On 29.10.19 21:19, hh via use-livecode wrote:

I also think all of them are still valuable targets.

Of course one could say "I know features/repairs that
should be made before that" and advertise for them.

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Re: The Roadmap

[Richmond via use-livecode]

Well, even if nothing else, it gives an impression that the folk at 
LiveCode central have some sort
of GANTT chart with deliverables and dependencies, and what can be 
reasonably expected in the near future.


On 29.10.19 21:14, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:

What purpose does it serve?




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Re: The Roadmap

[hh via use-livecode]

I also think all of them are still valuable targets.

Of course one could say "I know features/repairs that
should be made before that" and advertise for them.

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Re: The Roadmap

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

What purpose does it serve?

--
 Richard Gaskin


Richmond wrote:
>
> Why would you ditch it?
>
> On 29.10.19 20:59, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
>> Richmond wrote:
>>
>> > The Roadmap is more than a year out of date.
>> >
>> > https://livecode.com/resources/roadmap/
>> >
>> > Is there any chance of it being updated?
>>
>> I hope not.
>>
>> If it were up to me I'd ditch it altogether.
>>
>>
>> Lagi wrote:
>> > The silence is deafening. :-(
>>
>> ^ and that's why.
>


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Re: The Roadmap

[Richmond via use-livecode]

Why would you ditch it?

On 29.10.19 20:59, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:

Richmond wrote:

> The Roadmap is more than a year out of date.
>
> https://livecode.com/resources/roadmap/
>
> Is there any chance of it being updated?

I hope not.

If it were up to me I'd ditch it altogether.


Lagi wrote:
> The silence is deafening. :-(

^ and that's why.




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Re: The Roadmap

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Richmond wrote:

> The Roadmap is more than a year out of date.
>
> https://livecode.com/resources/roadmap/
>
> Is there any chance of it being updated?

I hope not.

If it were up to me I'd ditch it altogether.


Lagi wrote:
> The silence is deafening. :-(

^ and that's why.

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems

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Re: The Roadmap

[Lagi Pittas via use-livecode]

The silence is deafening. :-(

On Mon, 28 Oct 2019 at 21:04, Richmond via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> The Roadmap is more than a year out of date.
>
> https://livecode.com/resources/roadmap/
>
> Is there any chance of it being updated?
>
> Richmond.
>
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The Roadmap

[Richmond via use-livecode]

The Roadmap is more than a year out of date.

https://livecode.com/resources/roadmap/

Is there any chance of it being updated?

Richmond.

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