Re: altkey() down, up halfway down
Advice from Andre Garzia: I have no problem with that and I use it here as well. Just do a visual feedback like this: on rawKeydown, check for the altKey and change all the labels of the buttons for the actions they will perform if that key is down, this way, as soon as someone presses ALT, the labels change and they know what is happening. which makes 100% sense, but I really don't know HOW on a Macintosh: On a Macintosh on rawKeydown, check for the altKey means 'check that the altKey is down as I press another key', so any label changing on buttons is going to happen AFTER THE FACT rather than BEFORE, which misses the point. as soon as someone presses ALT, the labels change would be lovely, and can be lovely on Windows or Linux, but cannot on Macintosh as far as I can see. Richmond. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: altkey() down, up halfway down
If you are using alt as a modifier: on rawKeyDown if altKey() = down then -- do some stuff end if end rawKeyDown If you just want to detect the alt key, one option could be to use the idle message which essentially acts as a loop: [ card or stack script ] on idle if altKey() = down then -- do some stuff end if pass idle end idle Regards, Scott Rossi Creative Director Tactile Media, UX Design On 12/2/12 12:00 AM, Richmond richmondmathew...@gmail.com wrote: Advice from Andre Garzia: I have no problem with that and I use it here as well. Just do a visual feedback like this: on rawKeydown, check for the altKey and change all the labels of the buttons for the actions they will perform if that key is down, this way, as soon as someone presses ALT, the labels change and they know what is happening. which makes 100% sense, but I really don't know HOW on a Macintosh: On a Macintosh on rawKeydown, check for the altKey means 'check that the altKey is down as I press another key', so any label changing on buttons is going to happen AFTER THE FACT rather than BEFORE, which misses the point. as soon as someone presses ALT, the labels change would be lovely, and can be lovely on Windows or Linux, but cannot on Macintosh as far as I can see. Richmond. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: altkey() down, up halfway down
If I have this sort of script in my stack: on rawKeydown if altKey() = down then put ALT down into fld AKD end if end rawKeydown on Macintosh that ONLY WORKS if I am pressing an alphanumeric key while holding the altKey down, it DOES NOT work if all I do is press the altKey. Now, Andre Garzia's advice went like this: on rawKeydown, check for the altKey and change all the labels of the buttons for the actions they will perform if that key is down, this way, as soon as someone presses ALT, the labels change and they know what is happening. and this is NOT possible on Macintosh, while it is on Linux and Windows. Richmond. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: altkey() down, up halfway down
Late to this discussion but.. Polling (or maybe an external?) is the only real solution for this problem right? On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 7:59 AM, Richmond richmondmathew...@gmail.comwrote: If I have this sort of script in my stack: on rawKeydown if altKey() = down then put ALT down into fld AKD end if end rawKeydown on Macintosh that ONLY WORKS if I am pressing an alphanumeric key while holding the altKey down, it DOES NOT work if all I do is press the altKey. Now, Andre Garzia's advice went like this: on rawKeydown, check for the altKey and change all the labels of the buttons for the actions they will perform if that key is down, this way, as soon as someone presses ALT, the labels change and they know what is happening. and this is NOT possible on Macintosh, while it is on Linux and Windows. Richmond. __**_ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/**mailman/listinfo/use-livecodehttp://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: altkey() down, up halfway down
On 12/02/2012 05:30 PM, Mike Bonner wrote: Late to this discussion but.. Polling (or maybe an external?) is the only real solution for this problem right? Polling the key downs is possible, but will slow down a program considerably. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: altkey() down, up halfway down
Use idle as scott said? Or, if you don't need it to be super responsive. IE you're using visual cues as andre suggested, then polling every 100 or 150 milliseconds might suffice. Idle is probably easiest. Was wondering about the external, seems that since this is related to os/arch even an external would just have to sit there polling also. (though it could do it in it's own little area and only speak up when a key changes state) So an external would probably be the best option except for that whole having to write it thing. On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 8:42 AM, Richmond richmondmathew...@gmail.comwrote: On 12/02/2012 05:30 PM, Mike Bonner wrote: Late to this discussion but.. Polling (or maybe an external?) is the only real solution for this problem right? Polling the key downs is possible, but will slow down a program considerably. __**_ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/**mailman/listinfo/use-livecodehttp://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: altkey() down, up halfway down
On 12/02/2012 05:58 PM, Mike Bonner wrote: Use idle as scott said? Or, if you don't need it to be super responsive. My Devawriter does have to be 'super responsive' as it is, ultimately, a glorified typewriter, and as such should, in an ideal situation, work not much more slowly than the speed one might enter text into a text editor. For the sake of argument, even though I type with only 2 fingers and have to keep looking at the keyboard, I still manage to knock out about 50 words a minute! Obviously there isn't all that much 'idle' when someone is bashing away on the keyboard. IE you're using visual cues as andre suggested, then polling every 100 or 150 milliseconds might suffice. Idle is probably easiest. Was wondering about the external, seems that since this is related to os/arch even an external would just have to sit there polling also. (though it could do it in it's own little area and only speak up when a key changes state) So an external would probably be the best option except for that whole having to write it thing. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: altkey() down, up halfway down
Yeah, too true. And if others are like me, having to wait for things to catch up is really annoying! Well, this is only osx (objective c) and I'm clueless about it, but the example on this page might give someone who isn't a clueless c nub like me a chance to build an external to catch key presses. http://stackoverflow.com/questions/12113795/is-there-a-keyup-method-for-flagschanged On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 9:39 AM, Richmond richmondmathew...@gmail.comwrote: On 12/02/2012 05:58 PM, Mike Bonner wrote: Use idle as scott said? Or, if you don't need it to be super responsive. My Devawriter does have to be 'super responsive' as it is, ultimately, a glorified typewriter, and as such should, in an ideal situation, work not much more slowly than the speed one might enter text into a text editor. For the sake of argument, even though I type with only 2 fingers and have to keep looking at the keyboard, I still manage to knock out about 50 words a minute! Obviously there isn't all that much 'idle' when someone is bashing away on the keyboard. IE you're using visual cues as andre suggested, then polling every 100 or 150 milliseconds might suffice. Idle is probably easiest. Was wondering about the external, seems that since this is related to os/arch even an external would just have to sit there polling also. (though it could do it in it's own little area and only speak up when a key changes state) So an external would probably be the best option except for that whole having to write it thing. __**_ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/**mailman/listinfo/use-livecodehttp://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: altkey() down, up halfway down
On 12/02/2012 07:02 PM, Mike Bonner wrote: Yeah, too true. And if others are like me, having to wait for things to catch up is really annoying! Well, this is only osx (objective c) and I'm clueless about it, but the example on this page might give someone who isn't a clueless c nub like me a chance to build an external to catch key presses. http://stackoverflow.com/questions/12113795/is-there-a-keyup-method-for-flagschanged Ha, Ha; there is only one problem here; I haven't looked at any programming language (except for a brief 'perversion' with Toolbook) other than xTalk (or whatever Runtime Revolution call the Livecode langaue at the moment) since I left BBC BASIC in 1990. So that code looks: 1. odd and 2. I wouldn't have a clue how to integrate those few lines into anything else, let alone get it to interact with a Livecode standalone. AND . . . and here's the rub . . . I really want to have one code-base for my product, rather than fork the thing into 2 or 3 branches (Mac, Lin and Win), as subsequent modifications would involve a considerably large amount of (repetitive) work than keeping it as a single code base. It is, of course, quite possible to have the stack to detect the operating system and act accordingly . . . On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 9:39 AM, Richmond richmondmathew...@gmail.comwrote: On 12/02/2012 05:58 PM, Mike Bonner wrote: Use idle as scott said? Or, if you don't need it to be super responsive. My Devawriter does have to be 'super responsive' as it is, ultimately, a glorified typewriter, and as such should, in an ideal situation, work not much more slowly than the speed one might enter text into a text editor. For the sake of argument, even though I type with only 2 fingers and have to keep looking at the keyboard, I still manage to knock out about 50 words a minute! Obviously there isn't all that much 'idle' when someone is bashing away on the keyboard. IE you're using visual cues as andre suggested, then polling every 100 or 150 milliseconds might suffice. Idle is probably easiest. Was wondering about the external, seems that since this is related to os/arch even an external would just have to sit there polling also. (though it could do it in it's own little area and only speak up when a key changes state) So an external would probably be the best option except for that whole having to write it thing. __**_ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/**mailman/listinfo/use-livecodehttp://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: altkey() down, up halfway down
On Macintosh, according to Apple's documentation the key code for the left option key is 98 and 58 for the right option key. There is a school of thought flying around that the key code for both is 35. However . . . keysDown doesn't work for modifier keys on Mac . . . interestingly enough this: set the useUnicode to true set the unicodeText of fld KEEZE to numToChar(58) isn't much help. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: altkey() down, up halfway down
I remembered something about updateScreen on the Game Academy, they used dispatch to poll the stack for a screen refresh and it didn't seem to have too much detrimental effect on the game, I had a quick look, took out the bones and tried this… on preOpenStack if the platform is MacOS then dispatchUpdateKey end preOpenStack on altKeyCheck if altKey() = down then set the label of btn clearButton to Reset else set the label of btn clearButton to Clear end if end altKeyCheck on dispatchUpdateKey dispatch altKeyCheck to me send dispatchUpdateKey to me in 250 milliseconds ## Change the value to suit end dispatchUpdateKey It seems to work OK for my test, this would poll about 4 times a second so that shouldn't carry too much overhead, but is easily adjustable to suit your needs and you could easily add in a ctrlKey, cmdKey and shiftKey check too if necessary. Just a thought. Paul On 2012-12-02, at 9:23 AM, Richmond wrote: On 12/02/2012 07:02 PM, Mike Bonner wrote: Yeah, too true. And if others are like me, having to wait for things to catch up is really annoying! Well, this is only osx (objective c) and I'm clueless about it, but the example on this page might give someone who isn't a clueless c nub like me a chance to build an external to catch key presses. http://stackoverflow.com/questions/12113795/is-there-a-keyup-method-for-flagschanged Ha, Ha; there is only one problem here; I haven't looked at any programming language (except for a brief 'perversion' with Toolbook) other than xTalk (or whatever Runtime Revolution call the Livecode langaue at the moment) since I left BBC BASIC in 1990. So that code looks: 1. odd and 2. I wouldn't have a clue how to integrate those few lines into anything else, let alone get it to interact with a Livecode standalone. AND . . . and here's the rub . . . I really want to have one code-base for my product, rather than fork the thing into 2 or 3 branches (Mac, Lin and Win), as subsequent modifications would involve a considerably large amount of (repetitive) work than keeping it as a single code base. It is, of course, quite possible to have the stack to detect the operating system and act accordingly . . . On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 9:39 AM, Richmond richmondmathew...@gmail.comwrote: On 12/02/2012 05:58 PM, Mike Bonner wrote: Use idle as scott said? Or, if you don't need it to be super responsive. My Devawriter does have to be 'super responsive' as it is, ultimately, a glorified typewriter, and as such should, in an ideal situation, work not much more slowly than the speed one might enter text into a text editor. For the sake of argument, even though I type with only 2 fingers and have to keep looking at the keyboard, I still manage to knock out about 50 words a minute! Obviously there isn't all that much 'idle' when someone is bashing away on the keyboard. IE you're using visual cues as andre suggested, then polling every 100 or 150 milliseconds might suffice. Idle is probably easiest. Was wondering about the external, seems that since this is related to os/arch even an external would just have to sit there polling also. (though it could do it in it's own little area and only speak up when a key changes state) So an external would probably be the best option except for that whole having to write it thing. __**_ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/**mailman/listinfo/use-livecodehttp://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: altkey() down, up halfway down
On 11/30/2012 09:04 AM, Richmond wrote: On 30/11/12 08:56, Richmond wrote: On 30/11/12 08:33, Richmond wrote: Has anybody any bright ideas why this doesn't work: on mouseUp if altkey() is down then put ALT key is down into fld fOUTPUT end if end mouseUp or this: on mouseUp if the altkey is down then put ALT key is down into fld fOUTPUT end if end mouseUp on Linux? 'Tisn't funny, m'dears! Richmond. (blast, answering my own message again) The documentation appears to be a bit dicky; if I put this in a button: on mouseUp put empty into fld fOUTPUT put the keysDown into fld fOUTPUT end mouseUP and I click the button with the SHIFT, CTRL, X, Y, Z or TAB keys pressed I get 'magic numbers'; all very well and super, BUT . . . there ain't nuffin doin' when I press the ALT key. Now that is NOT what the documentation says. Tested with LC 4.5 on Linux (Ubuntu 12.04) and Mac PPC (10.4); as at work (kids taking an exam) I have not had a chance to test this on Windows. Richmond. And, 'tis a roight cough, cough, cough from my point of view as rather important for the start of the next SDLC of Devawriter Pro. Am I on a roll this morning! If I put this into my cardScript: on rawKeyDown RK put RK into fld fOUTPUT end rawKeyDown I DO get a magic number for the ALT key So, where the documentation is, ultimately misleading is this: The keycodes returned by the keysDown function are the same as those passed as parameters with the rawKeyDown and . . . Richmond. And, of course, that's no good at all on a Macintosh. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: altkey() down, up halfway down
Is it just me, or . . . ? So, here I am, during my luch break, at home, AND . . . having had No joy with this on my G3 iMac running Mac OS 10.4 at the school: on mouseUp if the altKey is down then put down into fld fOUTPUT end if end mouseUp it works on MacINTEL 10.6.7 ! but NOT on Xubuntu 12.10. Do INTEL Macs send rawKey messages from modifier keys, while PPC Macs do not? ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: altkey() down, up halfway down
On 11/30/12 5:20 AM, Richmond wrote: Is it just me, or . . . ? So, here I am, during my luch break, at home, AND . . . having had No joy with this on my G3 iMac running Mac OS 10.4 at the school: on mouseUp if the altKey is down then put down into fld fOUTPUT end if end mouseUp it works on MacINTEL 10.6.7 ! but NOT on Xubuntu 12.10. Do INTEL Macs send rawKey messages from modifier keys, while PPC Macs do not? I think every OS is different. Try a handler using on optionKeyDown. Note that no message is sent with the key alone, it is only sent when the user types a key combo, but for your shortcuts that's what you want anyway. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: altkey() down, up halfway down
On 30/11/12 19:47, J. Landman Gay wrote: On 11/30/12 5:20 AM, Richmond wrote: Is it just me, or . . . ? So, here I am, during my luch break, at home, AND . . . having had No joy with this on my G3 iMac running Mac OS 10.4 at the school: on mouseUp if the altKey is down then put down into fld fOUTPUT end if end mouseUp it works on MacINTEL 10.6.7 ! but NOT on Xubuntu 12.10. Do INTEL Macs send rawKey messages from modifier keys, while PPC Macs do not? I think every OS is different. Try a handler using on optionKeyDown. Note that no message is sent with the key alone, it is only sent when the user types a key combo, but for your shortcuts that's what you want anyway. Thanks, Jacque . . . as usual I have solved the problem having already made myself look a complete fool all over the use-list . . . LOL Nothwithstanding the above, I do wonder why Livecode-on-Mac cannot grab onto rawKeyDowns for modifier keys. Richmond. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: altkey() down, up halfway down
On 11/30/12 11:52 AM, Richmond wrote: Nothwithstanding the above, I do wonder why Livecode-on-Mac cannot grab onto rawKeyDownsfor modifier keys. As I understand it, the OS doesn't send any key messages until the combo is typed. I believe it's always been that way on Macs; at least, I recall dealing with it back in OS 9 and HyperCard. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: altkey() down, up halfway down
On 11/30/2012 10:38 PM, J. Landman Gay wrote: On 11/30/12 11:52 AM, Richmond wrote: Nothwithstanding the above, I do wonder why Livecode-on-Mac cannot grab onto rawKeyDownsfor modifier keys. As I understand it, the OS doesn't send any key messages until the combo is typed. I believe it's always been that way on Macs; at least, I recall dealing with it back in OS 9 and HyperCard. Thank you Jacque and Robert. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
altkey() down, up halfway down
Has anybody any bright ideas why this doesn't work: on mouseUp if altkey() is down then put ALT key is down into fld fOUTPUT end if end mouseUp or this: on mouseUp if the altkey is down then put ALT key is down into fld fOUTPUT end if end mouseUp on Linux? 'Tisn't funny, m'dears! Richmond. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: altkey() down, up halfway down
On 30/11/12 08:33, Richmond wrote: Has anybody any bright ideas why this doesn't work: on mouseUp if altkey() is down then put ALT key is down into fld fOUTPUT end if end mouseUp or this: on mouseUp if the altkey is down then put ALT key is down into fld fOUTPUT end if end mouseUp on Linux? 'Tisn't funny, m'dears! Richmond. (blast, answering my own message again) The documentation appears to be a bit dicky; if I put this in a button: on mouseUp put empty into fld fOUTPUT put the keysDown into fld fOUTPUT end mouseUP and I click the button with the SHIFT, CTRL, X, Y, Z or TAB keys pressed I get 'magic numbers'; all very well and super, BUT . . . there ain't nuffin doin' when I press the ALT key. Now that is NOT what the documentation says. Tested with LC 4.5 on Linux (Ubuntu 12.04) and Mac PPC (10.4); as at work (kids taking an exam) I have not had a chance to test this on Windows. Richmond. And, 'tis a roight cough, cough, cough from my point of view as rather important for the start of the next SDLC of Devawriter Pro. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: altkey() down, up halfway down
On 30/11/12 08:56, Richmond wrote: On 30/11/12 08:33, Richmond wrote: Has anybody any bright ideas why this doesn't work: on mouseUp if altkey() is down then put ALT key is down into fld fOUTPUT end if end mouseUp or this: on mouseUp if the altkey is down then put ALT key is down into fld fOUTPUT end if end mouseUp on Linux? 'Tisn't funny, m'dears! Richmond. (blast, answering my own message again) The documentation appears to be a bit dicky; if I put this in a button: on mouseUp put empty into fld fOUTPUT put the keysDown into fld fOUTPUT end mouseUP and I click the button with the SHIFT, CTRL, X, Y, Z or TAB keys pressed I get 'magic numbers'; all very well and super, BUT . . . there ain't nuffin doin' when I press the ALT key. Now that is NOT what the documentation says. Tested with LC 4.5 on Linux (Ubuntu 12.04) and Mac PPC (10.4); as at work (kids taking an exam) I have not had a chance to test this on Windows. Richmond. And, 'tis a roight cough, cough, cough from my point of view as rather important for the start of the next SDLC of Devawriter Pro. Am I on a roll this morning! If I put this into my cardScript: on rawKeyDown RK put RK into fld fOUTPUT end rawKeyDown I DO get a magic number for the ALT key So, where the documentation is, ultimately misleading is this: The keycodes returned by the keysDown function are the same as those passed as parameters with the rawKeyDown and . . . Richmond. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
