Re: leap to future

[Mark Waddingham]

On 2016-02-25 02:40, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami wrote:

We were told in no uncertain terms, "not gonna happen."


It is important to understand that LiveCode Community and LiveCode Indy 
are distinct things. Whilst Community offers a proper subset of 
functionality to Indy at the moment that is by no means guaranteed in 
the future (it is entirely possible that Community might at some point 
come with GPL-licensed extensions which are incompatible with the Indy 
Commercial license). Both editions share a common source base but the 
license under which you receive either is hugely different.



It's still baffling, as it would seem to be a no-brainer to turn on
the HTML5 Standalone builder option in the Indy version and turn off
the option to encrypt it if you had not paid for HTML5... 


The difference between Community and Indy is not really anything to do 
with the 'option to encrypt' it is related to licensing.


If you want to do commercial work where you are able to choose the 
license under which you distribute your code, then you must buy a 
commercial license.


If you don't care about choosing the license under which you distribute 
your code and are happy with abiding by the terms of the GPL then, by 
all means, use community.



Again response was "not gonna happen."

So there comes a time when, if Daddy says, "That's the way it's going
to be," you have to just be quiet.


I think the mistake being made in these threads is assuming that 
Community is just Indy without code protection. It is not. Community is 
licensed entirely differently - therefore, being able to build HTML5 
standalones in Indy 'without protection' is *not* the same as being able 
to build HTML5 standalones in Community from a licensing perspective.



There must be some underlying tech reason why it's not possible.
Either or the internal tracking of paid/unpaid licenses for HTML5
option for Indy users could turn into a nightmare...  


Given the complexity of software licensing these days, it seems to me 
that the best and easiest approach is to keep the Community and Indy 
products entirely separate. I can absolutely guarantee you that we will 
be making absolutely no attempt to create some sort of strange 
undefinable hybrid licensing mess which nobody quite understands (some 
might say there's quite enough of that sort of thing in the world 
already!).


If you want to use HTML5, but don't have a Indy license for deployment 
with - you are free to use the Community edition, but remember that you 
must abide by the terms of the GPL.


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: leap to future

[Mark Waddingham]

On 2016-02-24 22:58, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami wrote:

But it is my understanding that  we can deploy HTML5 from community
"for free" assuming that we do not need to lock up the code.


You can download the Community version of LiveCode from our servers at 
no cost. However, usage of the Community version of LiveCode binds you 
to the terms of the GPL. Any *stackfiles* you create with LiveCode 
Community must be distributed under the GPL (basically meaning that 
anyone you give a stackfile to has the right to modify it and 
redistribute the modified version as they see fit, as long as they also 
abide by the GPL).


So whilst the Community edition is 'free' (as in beer), it also enforces 
freedom on any code you write with it :)


Mark.

--
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LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: leap to future

[Peter TB Brett]

On 25/02/2016 01:48, Richard Gaskin wrote:

Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami wrote:

 > It's still baffling, as it would seem to be a no-brainer to turn on
 > the HTML5 Standalone builder option in the Indy version and turn off
 > the option to encrypt it if you had not paid for HTML5...
 >
 > Again response was "not gonna happen."
 >
 > So there comes a time when, if Daddy says, "That's the way it's going
 > to be," you have to just be quiet.

If you want to deliver GPL-governed work, all other deployment options
require using the Community Edition. With HTML output it may be simply
that the JS-translated engine is different in the proprietary editions
from the Community one.


It is indeed different.

  Peter

--
Dr Peter Brett 
LiveCode Open Source Team

LiveCode 2016 Conference https://livecode.com/edinburgh-2016/

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Re: leap to future

[Richard Gaskin]

Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami wrote:

> It's still baffling, as it would seem to be a no-brainer to turn on
> the HTML5 Standalone builder option in the Indy version and turn off
> the option to encrypt it if you had not paid for HTML5...
>
> Again response was "not gonna happen."
>
> So there comes a time when, if Daddy says, "That's the way it's going
> to be," you have to just be quiet.

If you want to deliver GPL-governed work, all other deployment options 
require using the Community Edition. With HTML output it may be simply 
that the JS-translated engine is different in the proprietary editions 
from the Community one.


Either way, if you want to deploy GPL-governed works you probably 
already have the Community Edition, so while I was initially also not 
clear on the "why" here, the other "why", as in "why I would want this" 
was something I couldn't answer either, so I'm okay with the arrangement.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com


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Re: leap to future

[Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami]

 
@ stephen:

"I don't think the OSS folks get HTML5. If they did, then I would have it in my 
'Indy' license... ( I really don't like that term ) " 

Right, that would be the obvious conclusion but

You can look back in the list.. I had a "tough round" of discussion (me 
complaining; HQ explaining) saying how it made no sense to force Indy users to 
have to pay for the OSS version of HTML5 if they had no closed source 
requirements.. e.g I have no closed source requirements other than being forced 
by Apple. 

We were told in no uncertain terms, "not gonna happen."

It's still baffling, as it would seem to be a no-brainer to turn on the HTML5 
Standalone builder option in the Indy version and turn off the option to 
encrypt it if you had not paid for HTML5... 

Again response was "not gonna happen."

So there comes a time when, if Daddy says, "That's the way it's going to be," 
you have to just be quiet.

There must be some underlying tech reason why it's not possible. Either or the 
internal tracking of paid/unpaid licenses for HTML5 option for Indy users could 
turn into a nightmare...  

BR





On February 24, 2016 at 12:30:35 PM, Peter TB Brett 
(peter.br...@livecode.com(mailto:peter.br...@livecode.com)) wrote:

> The "OSS folks" do indeed "get HTML5".  
>  
> You can currently use the GPL-licensed engine to deploy GPL-licensed  
> HTML5 apps at no cost, and it's all available in the open source edition  
> build of LiveCode.  
>  
> If you want to deploy apps under any other open- or closed-source  
> copyright license, then you need to have a current HTML5 deployment license.  
>  
> Peter
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Re: leap to future

[Peter TB Brett]

On 24/02/2016 22:15, stephen barncard wrote:

On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 1:58 PM, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami <
bra...@hindu.org> wrote:


But it is my understanding that  we can deploy HTML5 from community "for
free" assuming that we do not need to lock up the code.



I don't think the OSS folks get HTML5. If they did, then I would have it in
my 'Indy' license... ( I really don't like that term )


The "OSS folks" do indeed "get HTML5".

You can currently use the GPL-licensed engine to deploy GPL-licensed 
HTML5 apps at no cost, and it's all available in the open source edition 
build of LiveCode.


If you want to deploy apps under any other open- or closed-source 
copyright license, then you need to have a current HTML5 deployment license.


   Peter

--
Dr Peter Brett 
LiveCode Open Source Team

LiveCode 2016 Conference https://livecode.com/edinburgh-2016/

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Re: leap to future

[Peter TB Brett]

On 24/02/2016 21:58, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami wrote:

But it is my understanding that  we can deploy HTML5 from community "for free" 
assuming that we do not need to lock up the code.

Correct?

and if so, will this policy stick in the "leap forward"


As far as I know, this will be true for the foreseeable future.

 Peter

--
Dr Peter Brett 
LiveCode Open Source Team

LiveCode 2016 Conference https://livecode.com/edinburgh-2016/

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Re: leap to future

[stephen barncard]

On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 1:58 PM, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami <
bra...@hindu.org> wrote:

> But it is my understanding that  we can deploy HTML5 from community "for
> free" assuming that we do not need to lock up the code.
>

I don't think the OSS folks get HTML5. If they did, then I would have it in
my 'Indy' license... ( I really don't like that term )

Stephen Barncard - Sebastopol Ca. USA -
mixstream.org
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Re: leap to future

[Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami]

But it is my understanding that  we can deploy HTML5 from community "for free" 
assuming that we do not need to lock up the code.

Correct?

and if so, will this policy stick in the "leap forward"

??



On February 24, 2016 at 2:34:45 AM, Stephen MacLean 
(smacl...@madmansoft.com) wrote:

Hi Peter,

Just an FYI, I have two different licenses listed under my account. One for all 
the current platforms and one just for HTML5, which I bought separately. I 
contacted support to ask to have them merged, so I could use the one license to 
do all of them in one shot instead of having to re-license my copy of LC every 
time I want to use HTML5, etc. I was told that it wasn’t possible to do that at 
this time, but maybe in the future. If it helps, the ticket was 
[Ticket#2016021510001946].

Thanks,

Steve MacLean
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Re: leap to future

[Stephen MacLean]

> On Feb 24, 2016, at 3:14 AM, Peter TB Brett  wrote:
> 
> On 24/02/2016 03:11, James Hale wrote:
>> Soon after HTML5 was released I too remembered Kevin's announcement and 
>> wondered why I was not seeing HTML5 in my license.
>> I wrote to support and soon after HTML5 appeared in my license for all LC8's.
>> So I am not sure what to make of the response from support stating they are 
>> separate as for me, and I guess quite a few others, they are not.
> 
> They're not "separate licenses".  Handy HTML5 licensing flowchart:
> 
> 1. You can check if you have HTML5 deployment entitlement on your account 
> information page on the LiveCode website.
> 
> 2. If it doesn't show up there, and you think it should, contact support.
> 
> 3. If it does show up there, but the IDE won't let you deploy, you may need 
> to use "Help -> Re-license LiveCode" to download an updated license file.
> 
> 4. If *that* doesn't work, then contact support.
> 
>  Peter
> 

Hi Peter,

Just an FYI, I have two different licenses listed under my account. One for all 
the current platforms and one just for HTML5, which I bought separately. I 
contacted support to ask to have them merged, so I could use the one license to 
do all of them in one shot instead of having to re-license my copy of LC every 
time I want to use HTML5, etc. I was told that it wasn’t possible to do that at 
this time, but maybe in the future. If it helps, the ticket was 
[Ticket#2016021510001946]. 

Thanks,

Steve MacLean


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Re: leap to future

[Peter TB Brett]

On 24/02/2016 03:11, James Hale wrote:

Soon after HTML5 was released I too remembered Kevin's announcement and 
wondered why I was not seeing HTML5 in my license.
I wrote to support and soon after HTML5 appeared in my license for all LC8's.
So I am not sure what to make of the response from support stating they are 
separate as for me, and I guess quite a few others, they are not.


They're not "separate licenses".  Handy HTML5 licensing flowchart:

1. You can check if you have HTML5 deployment entitlement on your 
account information page on the LiveCode website.


2. If it doesn't show up there, and you think it should, contact support.

3. If it does show up there, but the IDE won't let you deploy, you may 
need to use "Help -> Re-license LiveCode" to download an updated license 
file.


4. If *that* doesn't work, then contact support.

  Peter

--
Dr Peter Brett 
LiveCode Open Source Team

LiveCode 2016 Conference https://livecode.com/edinburgh-2016/

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Re: leap to future

[James Hale]

Soon after HTML5 was released I too remembered Kevin's announcement and 
wondered why I was not seeing HTML5 in my license.
I wrote to support and soon after HTML5 appeared in my license for all LC8's.
So I am not sure what to make of the response from support stating they are 
separate as for me, and I guess quite a few others, they are not.

James
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Re: leap to future

[Shawn Blc]

Thanks everyone. That's what I did.  Have a great day.

On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 8:11 AM, Matthias Rebbe | M-R-D <
matthias_livecode_150...@m-r-d.de> wrote:

> Hi Shawn,
>
> the lifetime license from the 1st Kickstarter campaign is for all
> platforms Livecode supported at the time when the Kickstarter campaign ran
> and for all new platforms Livecode will support in future.
> That is a fact and already confirmed by Kevin in several posts and emails.
>
> If your license does not list Html5 as supported platform, then just drop
> the support team an email and ask them to add Html5 to your license.
>
> I´ve done so in the past.
>
> Regards,
>
> Matthias
>
>
> > Am 23.02.2016 um 14:39 schrieb Shawn Blc :
> >
> > Well, when I launched LC and try to build HTML 5, I have a button that
> says
> > Buy Now.  I then saw Kevin's comments here.  Perhaps I'm mistaken.  I
> hope
> > so.  If so, I apologize in advance :)
> >
> > On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 7:33 AM, Kay C Lan 
> wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 9:16 PM, Shawn Blc 
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I purchased a lifetime license on the kickstarter campaign... Cheated!
> >>>
> >>> How have you come to that conclusion. Didn't you receive an email on or
> >> about 23Jul14 from Kevin stating:
> >>
> >> As you know, you will receive a HTML5 license as per the agreement of
> your
> >>> Lifetime license
> >>
> >> What correspondence have you personally received to indicate your
> Lifetime
> >> license no longer allows you access to HTML5? Isn't Kevin's comments
> here
> >> about the average every day vast majority user who isn't a Lifetime
> license
> >> holder?
> >> ___
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Re: leap to future

[Stephen MacLean]

Hi Shawn,

You may need to re-license your copy of LC specifically for HTML5 deployment.

Login to your account at livecode.com and see what licenses you have. You’ll 
see the HTML5 license separately. 

I have both HTML5 and Indy, but need to re-license my copy specifically for 
HTML5 when I want to work with HTML5. According to the reply I got from 
livecode support when I asked to have them merged, she said that’s not how the 
HTML5 license works and that hopefully at some point in the future, you can 
have them grouped together:

"Thank you for your request. Unfortunately, I cannot do this. This is how the 
HTML5 license works currently, you have to relicense to use it.

Hopefully at some point in the future the development team will alter how 
LiveCode handles the licensing so that this becomes possible.”

hth,

Steve MacLean

> On Feb 23, 2016, at 8:39 AM, Shawn Blc  wrote:
> 
> Well, when I launched LC and try to build HTML 5, I have a button that says
> Buy Now.  I then saw Kevin's comments here.  Perhaps I'm mistaken.  I hope
> so.  If so, I apologize in advance :)
> 
> On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 7:33 AM, Kay C Lan  wrote:
> 
>> On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 9:16 PM, Shawn Blc 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> I purchased a lifetime license on the kickstarter campaign... Cheated!
>>> 
>>> How have you come to that conclusion. Didn't you receive an email on or
>> about 23Jul14 from Kevin stating:
>> 
>> As you know, you will receive a HTML5 license as per the agreement of your
>>> Lifetime license
>> 
>> What correspondence have you personally received to indicate your Lifetime
>> license no longer allows you access to HTML5? Isn't Kevin's comments here
>> about the average every day vast majority user who isn't a Lifetime license
>> holder?
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Re: leap to future

[Matthias Rebbe | M-R-D]

Hi Shawn,

the lifetime license from the 1st Kickstarter campaign is for all platforms 
Livecode supported at the time when the Kickstarter campaign ran and for all 
new platforms Livecode will support in future.
That is a fact and already confirmed by Kevin in several posts and emails.

If your license does not list Html5 as supported platform, then just drop the 
support team an email and ask them to add Html5 to your license. 

I´ve done so in the past.

Regards,

Matthias


> Am 23.02.2016 um 14:39 schrieb Shawn Blc :
> 
> Well, when I launched LC and try to build HTML 5, I have a button that says
> Buy Now.  I then saw Kevin's comments here.  Perhaps I'm mistaken.  I hope
> so.  If so, I apologize in advance :)
> 
> On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 7:33 AM, Kay C Lan  wrote:
> 
>> On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 9:16 PM, Shawn Blc 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> I purchased a lifetime license on the kickstarter campaign... Cheated!
>>> 
>>> How have you come to that conclusion. Didn't you receive an email on or
>> about 23Jul14 from Kevin stating:
>> 
>> As you know, you will receive a HTML5 license as per the agreement of your
>>> Lifetime license
>> 
>> What correspondence have you personally received to indicate your Lifetime
>> license no longer allows you access to HTML5? Isn't Kevin's comments here
>> about the average every day vast majority user who isn't a Lifetime license
>> holder?
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Re: leap to future

[Shawn Blc]

Well, when I launched LC and try to build HTML 5, I have a button that says
Buy Now.  I then saw Kevin's comments here.  Perhaps I'm mistaken.  I hope
so.  If so, I apologize in advance :)

On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 7:33 AM, Kay C Lan  wrote:

> On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 9:16 PM, Shawn Blc 
> wrote:
>
> > I purchased a lifetime license on the kickstarter campaign... Cheated!
> >
> > How have you come to that conclusion. Didn't you receive an email on or
> about 23Jul14 from Kevin stating:
>
> As you know, you will receive a HTML5 license as per the agreement of your
> > Lifetime license
>
> What correspondence have you personally received to indicate your Lifetime
> license no longer allows you access to HTML5? Isn't Kevin's comments here
> about the average every day vast majority user who isn't a Lifetime license
> holder?
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Re: leap to future

[Kay C Lan]

On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 9:16 PM, Shawn Blc  wrote:

> I purchased a lifetime license on the kickstarter campaign... Cheated!
>
> How have you come to that conclusion. Didn't you receive an email on or
about 23Jul14 from Kevin stating:

As you know, you will receive a HTML5 license as per the agreement of your
> Lifetime license

What correspondence have you personally received to indicate your Lifetime
license no longer allows you access to HTML5? Isn't Kevin's comments here
about the average every day vast majority user who isn't a Lifetime license
holder?
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Re: leap to future

[Shawn Blc]

I purchased a lifetime license on the kickstarter campaign and donated to
the HTML 5 campaign.  The main reason for donating to both was for HTML 5
and now you're saying that it's a separate license?  What the heck is that
all about?  Cheated!

On Fri, Feb 19, 2016 at 3:04 AM, Kevin Miller <ke...@livecode.com> wrote:

> Sorry if it wasn¹t clear in the article. HTML5 remains a separate license.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Kevin
>
> Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
> LiveCode: Everyone can create apps
>
>
>
>
> On 18/02/2016 21:47, "use-livecode on behalf of -hh"
> <use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com on behalf of h...@livecode.org>
> wrote:
>
> >Kevin M. wrote:
> >> see in detail https://livecode.com/leap-to-future/
> >
> >Yes, LC is great, worth its pricing, even if one is not using
> >any of Monte's iOS externals: The other core-developers will
> >have more time for their valuable work by that personal expanding.
> >
> >But sadly your explanations to the Indy license are quite unclear
> >relating to HTML5.
> >
> >1. You argue with HTML5 development for the raise of Indy pricing.
> >2. Recently we had to buy *separate* licenses for HTML5 deploying.
> >
> >Please explain the issue "HTML5" in detail for the example of a
> >locked $499 Indy license.
> >
> >===
> >Hermann
> >
> >
> >
> >--
> >View this message in context:
> >
> http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/leap-to-future-tp4701170.ht
> >ml
> >Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> >
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Re: leap to future

[Richard Gaskin]

William Prothero wrote:

Richard:
By the way, I didn’t find totally transparent, how to use your link to upload a 
file, very transparent when it came to standalones. I did figure it out after a 
lot of head-scratching and posted a link on this list, to the way i did it.
http://es.earthednet.org/SoftwareForEducation 


It’s oriented to sending an email, but the same principles probably apply to 
straight uploads. I do use php on the server side, though.


You have some nice stuff on that site, Bill - thanks. Bookmarked

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: leap to future

[William Prothero]

Richard:
By the way, I didn’t find totally transparent, how to use your link to upload a 
file, very transparent when it came to standalones. I did figure it out after a 
lot of head-scratching and posted a link on this list, to the way i did it. 
http://es.earthednet.org/SoftwareForEducation 


It’s oriented to sending an email, but the same principles probably apply to 
straight uploads. I do use php on the server side, though.
Best,
Bill

> On Feb 19, 2016, at 12:23 PM, Richard Gaskin  
> wrote:
> 
> Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami wrote:
> 
> > SFTP was not on the list! That's continues to be such an irritation
> > that this is not prioritized.
> >
> > see bug: bug 6405
> > Please, everyone go and vote.
> 
> The voting system was retired years ago.  For the sake of keeping reports 
> actionable please add only technical details to reports that can further the 
> work of implementing them.
> 
> I agree that this would be a very valuable addition, and IIRC Kevin's said 
> previously that it would be included along with an even higher priority for 
> modern work, OAuth2, as part of the network library overhaul that was 
> included among the Kickstarter goals.
> 
> I believe that library will be written in LC Builder, which is coming 
> together as part of v8.0, in development now.
> 
> Exactly how soon after that the team will be in a position to work on the new 
> networking library is something only the team can comment on, but the 
> foundation needed for it is being worked on right now.
> 
> 
> > Please, Please PLEEZE! Prioritize this request. it is much more
> > important that your realize.  95% of all apps today must communicate
> > with the web. This means the teacher, the enterprise, the business,
> > the developer etc. must be transferring files to the web server.
> 
> As useful as SFTP is for many things, it may not be the best choice for all 
> of the use cases outlined there.
> 
> FTP/SFTP gives unbridled access to the entire server, at least as far as the 
> account can get to.  If uploading content to a web server, this means all 
> publicly accessible files on that server as well as private configuration 
> files. Unless used with great care, it's very easy to move, modify, or even 
> delete files on a server, perhaps unintentionally and with unpredictable 
> results.
> 
> For this reason most web sites that need content contributions from 
> distributed stakeholders create HTTP-based APIs for that.  This allows much 
> more control over what can be sent and how it's handled, and as such is much 
> more secure.  Extra bonus points that HTTP/HTTPS is often more more efficient 
> than FTP/SFTP.
> 
> Using LiveCode Server right now we can craft an upload receiver script in 
> minutes - the sample code has already been delivered with a tutorial:
> 
> 
> Some stakeholders may indeed need complete access to the server, but for the 
> most part those are developers, or at a minimum trusted team members with 
> reasonable technical skills.  Developers will probably already have shared 
> SSH keys in place so they can enjoy the greater efficiency of rsync for file 
> transfers, and once there's a shared SSH key in place rsync, scp, and other 
> file transfer tools can be used in automated solutions built with LiveCode 
> today using the shell function.
> 
> Once we get past the larger use case of folks with limited skills for which 
> the control of an HTTP-based API is a good fit, and developers who probably 
> already have a shared SSH key on the server, the remainder does indeed 
> represent a good case for which SFTP would be very useful.  But it is, in all 
> fairness, a subset getting ever smaller as more orgs develop APIs to automate 
> content transfer.
> 
> -- 
> Richard Gaskin
> Fourth World Systems
> Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
> 
> ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
> 
> 
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Re: leap to future

[Richard Gaskin]

Michael Doub wrote:

> SFTP might not be the best thing in the world but I have yet to see
> a hosting site that does not support it.

They support SMTP too but, like SFTP, there are so many great tools out 
there that few of us need to make our own mail clients.


What are you building?


> From my perspective this is low hanging fruit that many people would
> use.

It's definitely useful, and as noted earlier also in progress.

I'm not sure how low-hanging it is, though.  I've never read the RFCs 
for SFTP or FTPS myself, but I have noted that a few community bounties 
over the years have been insufficient to get this done.


If someone out there can write this in a day or two let's make it happen.

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com


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Re: leap to future

[Michael Doub]

SFTP might not be the best thing in the world but I have yet to see a 
hosting site that does not support it.   I have been waiting patiently 
for it for too long now.   I am not at all interested in doing server 
side scripting but I would like to have the ability to manage files on 
my server.  SFTP is supported out of the box, FTP is not.


From my perspective this is low hanging fruit that many people would use.

-= Mike



On 2/19/16 3:23 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:

Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami wrote:

> SFTP was not on the list! That's continues to be such an irritation
> that this is not prioritized.
>
> see bug: bug 6405
> Please, everyone go and vote.

The voting system was retired years ago.  For the sake of keeping 
reports actionable please add only technical details to reports that 
can further the work of implementing them.


I agree that this would be a very valuable addition, and IIRC Kevin's 
said previously that it would be included along with an even higher 
priority for modern work, OAuth2, as part of the network library 
overhaul that was included among the Kickstarter goals.


I believe that library will be written in LC Builder, which is coming 
together as part of v8.0, in development now.


Exactly how soon after that the team will be in a position to work on 
the new networking library is something only the team can comment on, 
but the foundation needed for it is being worked on right now.



> Please, Please PLEEZE! Prioritize this request. it is much more
> important that your realize.  95% of all apps today must communicate
> with the web. This means the teacher, the enterprise, the business,
> the developer etc. must be transferring files to the web server.

As useful as SFTP is for many things, it may not be the best choice 
for all of the use cases outlined there.


FTP/SFTP gives unbridled access to the entire server, at least as far 
as the account can get to.  If uploading content to a web server, this 
means all publicly accessible files on that server as well as private 
configuration files. Unless used with great care, it's very easy to 
move, modify, or even delete files on a server, perhaps 
unintentionally and with unpredictable results.


For this reason most web sites that need content contributions from 
distributed stakeholders create HTTP-based APIs for that. This allows 
much more control over what can be sent and how it's handled, and as 
such is much more secure.  Extra bonus points that HTTP/HTTPS is often 
more more efficient than FTP/SFTP.


Using LiveCode Server right now we can craft an upload receiver script 
in minutes - the sample code has already been delivered with a tutorial:
 



Some stakeholders may indeed need complete access to the server, but 
for the most part those are developers, or at a minimum trusted team 
members with reasonable technical skills.  Developers will probably 
already have shared SSH keys in place so they can enjoy the greater 
efficiency of rsync for file transfers, and once there's a shared SSH 
key in place rsync, scp, and other file transfer tools can be used in 
automated solutions built with LiveCode today using the shell function.


Once we get past the larger use case of folks with limited skills for 
which the control of an HTTP-based API is a good fit, and developers 
who probably already have a shared SSH key on the server, the 
remainder does indeed represent a good case for which SFTP would be 
very useful.  But it is, in all fairness, a subset getting ever 
smaller as more orgs develop APIs to automate content transfer.





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Re: leap to future

[Richard Gaskin]

Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami wrote:

> SFTP was not on the list! That's continues to be such an irritation
> that this is not prioritized.
>
> see bug: bug 6405
> Please, everyone go and vote.

The voting system was retired years ago.  For the sake of keeping 
reports actionable please add only technical details to reports that can 
further the work of implementing them.


I agree that this would be a very valuable addition, and IIRC Kevin's 
said previously that it would be included along with an even higher 
priority for modern work, OAuth2, as part of the network library 
overhaul that was included among the Kickstarter goals.


I believe that library will be written in LC Builder, which is coming 
together as part of v8.0, in development now.


Exactly how soon after that the team will be in a position to work on 
the new networking library is something only the team can comment on, 
but the foundation needed for it is being worked on right now.



> Please, Please PLEEZE! Prioritize this request. it is much more
> important that your realize.  95% of all apps today must communicate
> with the web. This means the teacher, the enterprise, the business,
> the developer etc. must be transferring files to the web server.

As useful as SFTP is for many things, it may not be the best choice for 
all of the use cases outlined there.


FTP/SFTP gives unbridled access to the entire server, at least as far as 
the account can get to.  If uploading content to a web server, this 
means all publicly accessible files on that server as well as private 
configuration files. Unless used with great care, it's very easy to 
move, modify, or even delete files on a server, perhaps unintentionally 
and with unpredictable results.


For this reason most web sites that need content contributions from 
distributed stakeholders create HTTP-based APIs for that.  This allows 
much more control over what can be sent and how it's handled, and as 
such is much more secure.  Extra bonus points that HTTP/HTTPS is often 
more more efficient than FTP/SFTP.


Using LiveCode Server right now we can craft an upload receiver script 
in minutes - the sample code has already been delivered with a tutorial:



Some stakeholders may indeed need complete access to the server, but for 
the most part those are developers, or at a minimum trusted team members 
with reasonable technical skills.  Developers will probably already have 
shared SSH keys in place so they can enjoy the greater efficiency of 
rsync for file transfers, and once there's a shared SSH key in place 
rsync, scp, and other file transfer tools can be used in automated 
solutions built with LiveCode today using the shell function.


Once we get past the larger use case of folks with limited skills for 
which the control of an HTTP-based API is a good fit, and developers who 
probably already have a shared SSH key on the server, the remainder does 
indeed represent a good case for which SFTP would be very useful.  But 
it is, in all fairness, a subset getting ever smaller as more orgs 
develop APIs to automate content transfer.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com


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Re: leap to future

[Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami]

Your leap the future was a bit challenging for me to read. Because of one 
outstanding issue.

SFTP was not on the list! That's continues to be such an irritation that this 
is not prioritized.

see bug: bug 6405<http://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=6405>  Please, 
everyone go and vote.

Please, Please PLEEZE! Prioritize this request. it is much more important that 
your realize.  95% of all apps today must communicate with the web. This means 
the teacher, the enterprise, the business, the developer etc. must be 
transferring files to the web server. The tight integration between data on 
servers and apps that remotely access that data is a universal given these days.

Today any small desktop widget like Skitch (take sscreen shots) or desktop code 
editors. etc.. they *all* come with SFTP as a standard protocol.. you just 
enter your host, user name and password in pref and away we go... with the user 
name and password encrypted.  on mobile as well.

For LiveCode not to have this doesn't make sense in today's world. It is 
fundamental to development frameworks across the board. It  should not be 
considered something from a kickstarter or some feature exchange fund raiser... 
it's too close to core operations to even be called enhancement...passing user 
names and passwords in the clear ? in 2016?   It's as if the product were 
missing one foot! Adding a foot to the horse is not an enhancment. It's fixing 
something crippled.

Here we are working out all kinds of tools and apps and we *still* have to 
switch over to anFTP client to  dig for an upload/downlown files that are 
integral to the whole framework being built in LiveCode.  Regular FTP is today 
blocked on most web server firewalls.






On February 18, 2016 at 11:04:39 PM, Kevin Miller 
(ke...@livecode.com<mailto:ke...@livecode.com>) wrote:

Sorry if it wasn¹t clear in the article. HTML5 remains a separate license.

Kind regards,

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com<mailto:ke...@livecode.com> ~ 
http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps
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Re: leap to future

[Kevin Miller]

Sorry if it wasn¹t clear in the article. HTML5 remains a separate license.

Kind regards,

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps




On 18/02/2016 21:47, "use-livecode on behalf of -hh"
<use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com on behalf of h...@livecode.org> wrote:

>Kevin M. wrote:
>> see in detail https://livecode.com/leap-to-future/
>
>Yes, LC is great, worth its pricing, even if one is not using
>any of Monte's iOS externals: The other core-developers will
>have more time for their valuable work by that personal expanding.
>
>But sadly your explanations to the Indy license are quite unclear
>relating to HTML5.
>
>1. You argue with HTML5 development for the raise of Indy pricing.
>2. Recently we had to buy *separate* licenses for HTML5 deploying.
>
>Please explain the issue "HTML5" in detail for the example of a
>locked $499 Indy license.
>
>===
>Hermann 
>
>
>
>--
>View this message in context:
>http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/leap-to-future-tp4701170.ht
>ml
>Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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leap to future

[-hh]

Kevin M. wrote:
> see in detail https://livecode.com/leap-to-future/

Yes, LC is great, worth its pricing, even if one is not using
any of Monte's iOS externals: The other core-developers will
have more time for their valuable work by that personal expanding.

But sadly your explanations to the Indy license are quite unclear
relating to HTML5.

1. You argue with HTML5 development for the raise of Indy pricing.
2. Recently we had to buy *separate* licenses for HTML5 deploying.

Please explain the issue "HTML5" in detail for the example of a
locked $499 Indy license.

===
Hermann 



--
View this message in context: 
http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/leap-to-future-tp4701170.html
Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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