Re: Simulating 'drawer' behaviour on Windows
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hmm... I think M$ could stand to hire more capable web designers, as their web site is a disaster (particularly the developer sections). Where can I find the Windows HIG? I was starting to wonder if they even existed. Thank you! On Apr 26, 2005, at 1:07 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote: Ben Rubinstein wrote: As far as I can tell, it is not possible to make a really effective simulation on Windows of the MacOS X 'drawer' behaviour using transcript. I think I missed the original post, so please forgive me if this has been addressed: The Win HIG recommends using a disclosure triangle for the sorts of things the Aqua HIG recommends using drawers for. Even better, the Aqua HIG maintains support for disclosure triangles, so one solution can cover you on all major platforms. Would a disclosure triangle not work in the app you're designing? -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation __ Rev tools and more: http://www.fourthworld.com/rev ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution - --- Frank D. Engel, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] $ ln -s /usr/share/kjvbible /usr/manual $ true | cat /usr/manual | grep John 3:16 John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. $ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (Darwin) iD8DBQFCbjgL7aqtWrR9cZoRAsbkAJ9ygFBulF4biMs3bEn2kTnqHs82jwCffkkd DgiQtfYFFIbpP91N6Q8NZsU= =Zh7Y -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Simulating 'drawer' behaviour on Windows
Frank, 5 seconds search... http://search.microsoft.com/search/results.aspx?view=en-usst=bna=82qu=human+interface+guideliness=4 Knowing how to use a website reduces the amount of non-sense ranting that is required to prove that Apple's web designers are better ;) Besides, Win GUIs are the worst and we all know it - after lotus notes... Oh, you didn't mention how bad IBM's website designers were! ;)) cheerios Xav On 26.04.2005 14:46:03 use-revolution-bounces wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hmm... I think M$ could stand to hire more capable web designers, as their web site is a disaster (particularly the developer sections). Where can I find the Windows HIG? I was starting to wonder if they even existed. Thank you! On Apr 26, 2005, at 1:07 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote: Ben Rubinstein wrote: As far as I can tell, it is not possible to make a really effective simulation on Windows of the MacOS X 'drawer' behaviour using transcript. I think I missed the original post, so please forgive me if this has been addressed: The Win HIG recommends using a disclosure triangle for the sorts of things the Aqua HIG recommends using drawers for. Even better, the Aqua HIG maintains support for disclosure triangles, so one solution can cover you on all major platforms. Would a disclosure triangle not work in the app you're designing? -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation __ Rev tools and more: http://www.fourthworld.com/rev ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution - --- Frank D. Engel, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] $ ln -s /usr/share/kjvbible /usr/manual $ true | cat /usr/manual | grep John 3:16 John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. $ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (Darwin) iD8DBQFCbjgL7aqtWrR9cZoRAsbkAJ9ygFBulF4biMs3bEn2kTnqHs82jwCffkkd DgiQtfYFFIbpP91N6Q8NZsU= =Zh7Y -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution - Visit us at http://www.clearstream.com IMPORTANT MESSAGEInternet communications are not secure and therefore Clearstream International does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message.The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful. Any views expressed in this e-mail are those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically states them to be the views of Clearstream International or of any of its affiliates or subsidiaries.END OF DISCLAIMER ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Simulating 'drawer' behaviour on Windows
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Apr 26, 2005, at 9:06 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://search.microsoft.com/search/results.aspx?view=en- usst=bna=82qu=human+interface+guideliness=4 Knowing how to use a website reduces the amount of non-sense ranting that is required to prove that Apple's web designers are better ;) Besides, Win GUIs are the worst and we all know it - after lotus notes... Oh, you didn't mention how bad IBM's website designers were! ;)) Only because it didn't seem relevant, not because I hadn't noticed. - --- Frank D. Engel, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] $ ln -s /usr/share/kjvbible /usr/manual $ true | cat /usr/manual | grep John 3:16 John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. $ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (Darwin) iD8DBQFCbkLK7aqtWrR9cZoRAuyGAJ9xwPkdk3gTdBbY4ysyOy2EE7UtIgCfco+s 4szXZOc3Dvzay527jA/Ac5k= =6ZJV -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Simulating 'drawer' behaviour on Windows
Frank D. Engel, Jr. wrote: Hmm... I think M$ could stand to hire more capable web designers, as their web site is a disaster (particularly the developer sections). Agreed. MSDN's search facility would benefit from being thrown away in favor of Google's. Where can I find the Windows HIG? I was starting to wonder if they even existed. The HIGs for most popular OSes (along with a lot of other usability links) are available on the right of this page: http://www.fourthworld.com/resources/ -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation __ Rev tools and more: http://www.fourthworld.com/rev ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Simulating 'drawer' behaviour on Windows
As far as I can tell, it is not possible to make a really effective simulation on Windows of the MacOS X 'drawer' behaviour using transcript. The essential aspect is that the 'drawer' window is always at the same level in the window stack as its parent, and always moves attached to it. It is possible to code event handlers so that when one window is moved, another is snapped to it, but there's a powerful difference in effect. It does not seem to be possible to keep two windows in the same or consecutive layers of the window stack - in fact it is quite hard to manipulate this altogether. The two leading options seem to be: use a second pane on the main window, with a disclosure triangle or similar; use a palette, at least on non OSX systems. Using the main window gives the right effect in terms of window layer. It's more hassle from a coding point of view, as the the substack becomes a group (and in effect everything on the 'parent' stack probably has to become a group as well, especially if you want to support having the 'drawer' on either side of the 'main' window). The user experience in terms of sizing etc is also different and in my view suboptimal. Using a palette works well for more sophisticated users, but in my experience is less helpful for more naïve users (obviously this depends considerably on the app in question). Since the 'drawer' UI is now supported at a core level in the engine (for Mac OS X only), and cannot effectively be implemented on other platforms using Transcript (AFAICT - I'd welcome suggestions on other ways to attack this) I've added an enhancement request to bugzilla to support this mode on other platforms: http://support.runrev.com/bugdatabase/show_bug.cgi?id=2797 If you would find this useful, please vote for it. Ben Rubinstein | Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cognitive Applications Ltd | Phone: +44 (0)1273-821600 http://www.cogapp.com| Fax : +44 (0)1273-728866 ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Simulating 'drawer' behaviour on Windows
I would honestly say for aesthetic reasons, don't make the drawer a palette. Make it a normal stack with no window decorations and create your own simulated border. That way if someone drags your main stack, the drawer will not raise above other windows while your main stack does not. Thus far from my testing I've been able to successfully create a drawer that slides open and close on either side of the window. The only thing it can't do is keep the focus on the main window. But if that's the only side effect, I can live with that. Derek Bump Dreamscape Software http://www.dreamscapesoftware.com/ ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Simulating 'drawer' behaviour on Windows
Recently, Ben Rubinstein wrote: As far as I can tell, it is not possible to make a really effective simulation on Windows of the MacOS X 'drawer' behaviour using transcript. Maybe something like this could help (enter in msg box): go url http://www.tactilemedia.com/download/slider.rev; Regards, Scott Rossi Creative Director Tactile Media, Multimedia Design - E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] W: http://www.tactilemedia.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Simulating 'drawer' behaviour on Windows
you get a much smoother fx from HotKeyN2O or the breakpointsN2O stacks with a few more effects when you click the diskette icon! ;) But that's the general idea... I dont dare the open url link but here's the links to the stacks... http://www.monsieurx.com/modules.php?name=Downloadsd_op=getitlid=74 http://www.monsieurx.com/modules.php?name=Downloadsd_op=getitlid=77 Now part of the Nitrous library called TAOO... Those interested in sharing and pitching in the ultimate scripting environment wanted! Takes one call to do the message: ShowMessage mymessage Why make it more complicated and have less features? Obviously this is not my first attempt! It sure beats the unseen message box. If you want to enjoy cool modules like that, just join the TAOO team... cheers X http://monsieurx.com - doing RAD^N2O with TAOO -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Scott Rossi Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 18:37 To: How to use Revolution Subject: Re: Simulating 'drawer' behaviour on Windows Recently, Ben Rubinstein wrote: As far as I can tell, it is not possible to make a really effective simulation on Windows of the MacOS X 'drawer' behaviour using transcript. Maybe something like this could help (enter in msg box): go url http://www.tactilemedia.com/download/slider.rev; Regards, Scott Rossi Creative Director Tactile Media, Multimedia Design - E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] W: http://www.tactilemedia.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Simulating 'drawer' behaviour on Windows
Ben- My knee-jerk reaction is don't do that - Windows users expect their applications to look and act like Windows applications, and OSX users expect their applications to look and act like OSX applications. I do the snapping technique on Windows apps myself sometimes, but nothing I hope that can be mistaken for an ersatz drawer. -- -Mark Wieder [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Simulating 'drawer' behaviour on Windows
Scott Rossi [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Maybe something like this could help (enter in msg box): go url http://www.tactilemedia.com/download/slider.rev; Hi Scott, I found this in archives, and checked it out (indeed I namechecked you in my Bugzilla entry). This solution looks great; however it requires the main window to be a palette (not workable for me) and in what I guess is a related issue, as soon as you have additional 'normal' windows, you get crazy layering issues, where the third window comes between the (palette) main window and its drawer. I played around with something based on ideas stolen from your sample - but couldn't get anything satisfactory. Hence my conclusion that there were limits to what we could achieve in Transcript, so we need support at the engine level. (Xavier - I hadn't seen your palettes before - they look great! - but I think they suffer in a similar way.) I would like to add these drawers to main document windows; they need to operate in the normal layer, not disappear when the app is in the background - and definitely not interleave. Ben Rubinstein | Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cognitive Applications Ltd | Phone: +44 (0)1273-821600 http://www.cogapp.com| Fax : +44 (0)1273-728866 ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Simulating 'drawer' behaviour on Windows
have you tried opening one stack #1 (layer x) before stack 2 (layer X+1) so as to layer them? when you go to a stack it becomes #1, to make it layer 2, open a stack after it (even offscreen)... works like charm using the defaultstack... cheers Xavier -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ben Rubinstein Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 20:46 To: use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Simulating 'drawer' behaviour on Windows Scott Rossi [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Maybe something like this could help (enter in msg box): go url http://www.tactilemedia.com/download/slider.rev; Hi Scott, I found this in archives, and checked it out (indeed I namechecked you in my Bugzilla entry). This solution looks great; however it requires the main window to be a palette (not workable for me) and in what I guess is a related issue, as soon as you have additional 'normal' windows, you get crazy layering issues, where the third window comes between the (palette) main window and its drawer. I played around with something based on ideas stolen from your sample - but couldn't get anything satisfactory. Hence my conclusion that there were limits to what we could achieve in Transcript, so we need support at the engine level. (Xavier - I hadn't seen your palettes before - they look great! - but I think they suffer in a similar way.) I would like to add these drawers to main document windows; they need to operate in the normal layer, not disappear when the app is in the background - and definitely not interleave. Ben Rubinstein | Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cognitive Applications Ltd | Phone: +44 (0)1273-821600 http://www.cogapp.com| Fax : +44 (0)1273-728866 ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Simulating 'drawer' behaviour on Windows
Mark Wieder [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: My knee-jerk reaction is don't do that - Windows users expect their applications to look and act like Windows applications, and OSX users expect their applications to look and act like OSX applications. I do the snapping technique on Windows apps myself sometimes, but nothing I hope that can be mistaken for an ersatz drawer. I'm not hoping to make it look like an 'os x' drawer; but I do find the UI technique of a panel that's clearly linked to, but clearly subsidiary to, a main window to be a useful one. I don't believe that it has never been seen on Windows (including before OS X 'blessed' it); the fact that OS X has provided core support for this technique doesn't mean that using the same technique on Windows is now a sign of platform-treachery! Many other conventions have started on one platform or another (Mac die hards could make some pithy comments here!) and spread to the other; palettes probably being a good example, not originally native to either platform, now very well accepted on both. If Rev incorporated this into the engine for Windows (etc), I would certainly not want it to look exactly like the OS X version, for that reason (in my Bugzilla entry I specifically mentioned not having rounded corners, for a trivial example). Derek Bump [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I would honestly say for aesthetic reasons, don't make the drawer a palette. Make it a normal stack with no window decorations and create your own simulated border. That way if someone drags your main stack, the drawer will not raise above other windows while your main stack does not. I agree - if I can get it working well enough, I'll be using a normal stack with no decorations. However, if I can't get it working well enough, then I'll use a standard palette on Windows, without any special display or moving behaviour. Derek also wrote: Thus far from my testing I've been able to successfully create a drawer that slides open and close on either side of the window. The only thing it can't do is keep the focus on the main window. But if that's the only side effect, I can live with that. The problem I have with focus is more than that; my problem is that other normal stack/windows can interleave between the 'main' window and its drawer, and I seem to be powerless to stop it. If you or anyone else has a solution to this I'd be very grateful to hear it. Ben Rubinstein | Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cognitive Applications Ltd | Phone: +44 (0)1273-821600 http://www.cogapp.com| Fax : +44 (0)1273-728866 ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Simulating 'drawer' behaviour on Windows
My knee-jerk reaction is don't do that - Windows users expect their applications to look and act like Windows applications, and OSX users expect their applications to look and act like OSX applications. I do the snapping technique on Windows apps myself sometimes, but nothing I hope that can be mistaken for an ersatz drawer. Is there room for the fruity WinAmp windowing GUI? ;) I grew up on MacOS 1 - 9 and a few first Raphsody betas Then switched to clunky NT4... N2K, (i hate XP), N2K3 (love it or hate it) Meanwhile discovered NeXTStep, W98 (licensed from NeXT?), WinAmp, FruityLoops, KPT, Talisman, DragThing, and the ultimate Wrap Init that makes screen life so much shorter way back in MacOS3... Although i admit not to have seen it work on osx, it seems Like WinAmp, it's a layer above in the GUI reality layer ;) This is how KPT stood out of the crowd for one... and made osx come bit by bit following kaleidoscope and the aqua revoltion (still the nicest, i agree...) But all still so flat... The army is checking out the Minority Report movie 3D interfaces and screens and that's cool! But we can still do more (without the effects ;) and unless we experiment with our own GUIs which is so easy in RunRev, then there's no point in trying... But since it's better info, faster the way I like it on my desktop or your drawer, it's RunRev's way or no way - i forgot MS's way long ago - it's so senile... ;) RunRev's the only place where I can marry the best GUIs for my personalized paperless desktop - since Hypercard times! I just do my GUI... maybe not to everyone's taste, but for efficiency of the moment... Nothing's forever... But thanks to RUnRev, mission critical is almost like real-time GUI delivery! ;) cheers and nitee rev-nite from Europe! Xavier http://monsieurx.com - TAOO - n-tuplate or nothing keep the good, throw the useless, adapt to the moment - Bruce Lee ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Simulating 'drawer' behaviour on Windows
Recently, Ben Rubinstein wrote: Thus far from my testing I've been able to successfully create a drawer that slides open and close on either side of the window. The only thing it can't do is keep the focus on the main window. But if that's the only side effect, I can live with that. The problem I have with focus is more than that; my problem is that other normal stack/windows can interleave between the 'main' window and its drawer, and I seem to be powerless to stop it. If you or anyone else has a solution to this I'd be very grateful to hear it. Maybe an option is two palettes, and making sure the drawer-ed palette lines up at the exact edge of the main palette. You could add a little fake shadow on the interior edge of the drawer palette to make it look like it's layered below the main palette. The biggest issue is that when dragged, a gap may be visible between the drawer and main palettes, but once dragging is complete they should line up. Also, to start the effect, you may need to open the drawer offscreen, make the main palette the default, the reposition the drawer at the same loc as the main to prevent any unwanted window visibility. Regards, Scott Rossi Creative Director Tactile Media, Multimedia Design - E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] W: http://www.tactilemedia.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Simulating 'drawer' behaviour on Windows
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005, Ben Rubinstein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As far as I can tell, it is not possible to make a really effective simulation on Windows of the MacOS X 'drawer' behaviour using transcript. The essential aspect is that the 'drawer' window is always at the same level in the window stack as its parent, and always moves attached to it. (snip) Ben Rubinstein Have a look at my sample stack Drawers of August 2003 at http://www.sanke.org/MetaMedia page Samples and Tools. The stack was uploaded again (originally to my FTP-site and later transferred) following discussions on the Metacard list in February 2004. The stack does *not* use the new drawer command, therefore the examples could be implemented on any platform and also with older versions of Metacard or Revolution. Two approaches are illustrated - changing the stack size - and even here achieving a real sliding-drawer effect - using substacks or other stacks Modifying the examples - that use substacks - you can create any reasonable number of drawers at any point of the four sides of the base stack that slide out in any direction, i.e. also diagonally. If you wish, you could also go to another card of the drawer stack before it is displayed ( There was a request or a question about this on the list). No resize-problems occur as they were reported for the new drawer command on MacOS X Regards, Wilhelm Sanke www.sanke.org ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Simulating 'drawer' behaviour on Windows
Ben Rubinstein wrote: As far as I can tell, it is not possible to make a really effective simulation on Windows of the MacOS X 'drawer' behaviour using transcript. I think I missed the original post, so please forgive me if this has been addressed: The Win HIG recommends using a disclosure triangle for the sorts of things the Aqua HIG recommends using drawers for. Even better, the Aqua HIG maintains support for disclosure triangles, so one solution can cover you on all major platforms. Would a disclosure triangle not work in the app you're designing? -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation __ Rev tools and more: http://www.fourthworld.com/rev ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
