Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: CNET is claiming the best free MSO alternative is not LO
On 09/06/2013 at 19:31, Rich Lewis rlew...@gmail.com wrote: When they introduced Internet Explorer 10 they broke X number of websites (including our gradebook website). These websites were broken in the first place. Just stick to web standards and you won't have any problems with IE10. The fix is simple, just click the compatibility icon Just put this: meta http-equiv=x-ua-compatible content=IE=9 in your head. More about it: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc288325(v=vs.85).aspx -- Best regards Mirosław Zalewski -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: CNET is claiming the best free MSO alternative is not LO
On 6/8/13 11:14 AM, Jay Lozier wrote: I like the concept that are core features combined with extensions/plugins to add little used features. Also, extensions/plugins would allow the dev team to focus on the core code and not run done every minor feature that is wanted. And the extenstions/plugins could be developed and maintained by others who are not part of the dev team. There is a downside to the extensions/plugins idea. It's who creates them. I run into this problem all the time with Firefox and Thunderbird. Many of the extensions and plugins are developed by folks outside of Mozilla. You find X number of them that allow you to add specific features that make the program operate the way you like, do what you want, etc. Then, the developers make changes to the core code, breaking X number of your extensions and plugins. One or more of those extensions/plugins were developed by 3rd party individuals who no longer support the extensions, for whatever reason. Now, your workflow/habits start to get screwed. Things you used to do, you can no longer do. Features that used to be easy for you, now become a pain. You have to find another way to get the same job done. Or, you can't do it at all. :-( -- Ken Mac OS X 10.8.4 Firefox 20.0 Thunderbird 17.0.5 LibreOffice 4.0.3.3 -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: CNET is claiming the best free MSO alternative is not LO
This is very true. The only way to ensure compatibility is if you control all the extensions, which would be a nightmare. Sticking with the paradigm of upgrading software breaks a lot of uncontrolled X, Microsoft did this on a larger scale. When they introduced Internet Explorer 10 they broke X number of websites (including our gradebook website). The fix is simple, just click the compatibility icon, but try explaining that to hundreds of parents of students who don't even know the difference between Chrome and Internet Explorer. Anyway, my point is that complaints will pile up. Like it or not, breaking plugins and extensions will make people feel less secure with LibreOffice. People always reach higher up on the chain for something to blame. Sent from my iPad On Jun 9, 2013, at 9:42 AM, Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com wrote: On 6/8/13 11:14 AM, Jay Lozier wrote: I like the concept that are core features combined with extensions/plugins to add little used features. Also, extensions/plugins would allow the dev team to focus on the core code and not run done every minor feature that is wanted. And the extenstions/plugins could be developed and maintained by others who are not part of the dev team. There is a downside to the extensions/plugins idea. It's who creates them. I run into this problem all the time with Firefox and Thunderbird. Many of the extensions and plugins are developed by folks outside of Mozilla. You find X number of them that allow you to add specific features that make the program operate the way you like, do what you want, etc. Then, the developers make changes to the core code, breaking X number of your extensions and plugins. One or more of those extensions/plugins were developed by 3rd party individuals who no longer support the extensions, for whatever reason. Now, your workflow/habits start to get screwed. Things you used to do, you can no longer do. Features that used to be easy for you, now become a pain. You have to find another way to get the same job done. Or, you can't do it at all. :-( -- Ken Mac OS X 10.8.4 Firefox 20.0 Thunderbird 17.0.5 LibreOffice 4.0.3.3 -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: CNET is claiming the best free MSO alternative is not LO
Hi :) There could be a core group of Extensions/Add-ons that are maintained as part of the program. Official add-ons. Then a bunch of 3rd party or experimental ones. Encourage all to be made as OpenSource so that if/when the original maintainer vanishes then others could take over. Regards from Tom :) From: Rich Lewis rlew...@gmail.com To: Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org users@global.libreoffice.org Sent: Sunday, 9 June 2013, 18:31 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: CNET is claiming the best free MSO alternative is not LO This is very true. The only way to ensure compatibility is if you control all the extensions, which would be a nightmare. Sticking with the paradigm of upgrading software breaks a lot of uncontrolled X, Microsoft did this on a larger scale. When they introduced Internet Explorer 10 they broke X number of websites (including our gradebook website). The fix is simple, just click the compatibility icon, but try explaining that to hundreds of parents of students who don't even know the difference between Chrome and Internet Explorer. Anyway, my point is that complaints will pile up. Like it or not, breaking plugins and extensions will make people feel less secure with LibreOffice. People always reach higher up on the chain for something to blame. Sent from my iPad On Jun 9, 2013, at 9:42 AM, Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com wrote: On 6/8/13 11:14 AM, Jay Lozier wrote: I like the concept that are core features combined with extensions/plugins to add little used features. Also, extensions/plugins would allow the dev team to focus on the core code and not run done every minor feature that is wanted. And the extenstions/plugins could be developed and maintained by others who are not part of the dev team. There is a downside to the extensions/plugins idea. It's who creates them. I run into this problem all the time with Firefox and Thunderbird. Many of the extensions and plugins are developed by folks outside of Mozilla. You find X number of them that allow you to add specific features that make the program operate the way you like, do what you want, etc. Then, the developers make changes to the core code, breaking X number of your extensions and plugins. One or more of those extensions/plugins were developed by 3rd party individuals who no longer support the extensions, for whatever reason. Now, your workflow/habits start to get screwed. Things you used to do, you can no longer do. Features that used to be easy for you, now become a pain. You have to find another way to get the same job done. Or, you can't do it at all. :-( -- Ken Mac OS X 10.8.4 Firefox 20.0 Thunderbird 17.0.5 LibreOffice 4.0.3.3 -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: CNET is claiming the best free MSO alternative is not LO
On Sun, Jun 09, 2013 at 11:50:17AM +1200, Steve Edmonds wrote: On 2013-06-08 10:10, Ken Springer wrote: On 6/7/13 3:41 AM, Tom Davies wrote: snip I too wouldn't touch Kingsoft with a barge pole. I want to steer towards using formats that will be around and usable in a few years time. I want to be able to open documents maybe 10-20 years from now without having to struggle against malware and without having to try to find long-dead versions of long dead software produced by a company that may not even exist by then. You just hope the formats will be around 10-20 years from now. There's no guaranteed the current ODT format will even be viable then. Similar to the way desktop design interfaces are basically horrible on cell phones and tablets (IMO), all of it can change almost overnight with hardware changes. And LO are doing it now. LO4 already drops previous file compatibility, if AOO maintains that compatibility I will be looking hard at it. I think you mean if AOO doesn't maintain True? I thought one of the arguments for dropping MSO in favor of LO or OOo is that MSO ceased supporting older formats when there was a new release. What formats has LO stopped supporting? -- Bob Holtzman If you think you're getting free lunch, check the price of the beer. Key ID: 8D549279 -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: CNET is claiming the best free MSO alternative is not LO
On 6/9/13 2:07 PM, Tom Davies wrote: Hi:) There could be a core group of Extensions/Add-ons that are maintained as part of the program. Official add-ons. Then a bunch of 3rd party or experimental ones. Encourage all to be made as OpenSource so that if/when the original maintainer vanishes then others could take over. Regards from Tom:) This assumes there will be someone interested in taking the extensions over. If you were at 3rd party developer, how would you feel about competing with official add-ons, especially if the one you wrote was superior? If it's not official, maybe there's something wrong with it. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.8.4 Firefox 20.0 Thunderbird 17.0.5 LibreOffice 4.0.3.3 -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: CNET is claiming the best free MSO alternative is not LO
Hi :) Hmmm, i was thinking of the official ones covering certain fairly commonly used functionality and the 3rd party ones tending to go for interesting oddities. But if a 3rd party one was directly competing with an official one and doing it better then it would be great to have some mechanism for it to swap places and become the official one. Anyway, all this is idle speculation. Possibly a great idea in theory but unlikely to happen. Regards from Tom :) From: Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com To: users@global.libreoffice.org Sent: Sunday, 9 June 2013, 21:43 Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: CNET is claiming the best free MSO alternative is not LO On 6/9/13 2:07 PM, Tom Davies wrote: Hi:) There could be a core group of Extensions/Add-ons that are maintained as part of the program. Official add-ons. Then a bunch of 3rd party or experimental ones. Encourage all to be made as OpenSource so that if/when the original maintainer vanishes then others could take over. Regards from Tom:) This assumes there will be someone interested in taking the extensions over. If you were at 3rd party developer, how would you feel about competing with official add-ons, especially if the one you wrote was superior? If it's not official, maybe there's something wrong with it. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.8.4 Firefox 20.0 Thunderbird 17.0.5 LibreOffice 4.0.3.3 -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: CNET is claiming the best free MSO alternative is not LO
On 6/9/13 5:36 PM, Tom Davies wrote: Hi :) Hmmm, i was thinking of the official ones covering certain fairly commonly used functionality and the 3rd party ones tending to go for interesting oddities. But if a 3rd party one was directly competing with an official one and doing it better then it would be great to have some mechanism for it to swap places and become the official one. For me, the fairly common features are not what I'm looking for. Why? The fairly common ones tend not to push the envelope presenting new features, ideas, and methods of working with XXX. And the very reason I'm sitting here actually reading the 540 page Scrivener manual!LOL -- Ken Mac OS X 10.8.4 Firefox 20.0 Thunderbird 17.0.5 LibreOffice 4.0.3.3 -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: CNET is claiming the best free MSO alternative is not LO
no longer conflict with document panes. I.e. split panes for a document window. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: CNET is claiming the best free MSO alternative is not LO
Hi :) ODF is implemented the way it's documented as an ISO standard. A lot of programs use the same implementation. According to devs it's fairly easy to write something that can read it. Where programs have variations on their implementation those tend to be written up as bug-reports (and gets fixed) or added to the file about what the Extended means in ODF 1.2 (Extended). So, it's all clearly documented and is true to it's documentation. That is all the reverse of all other formats In future years if you talk about trying to access large amounts of Rtf files, or DocX, then you need to know which version of the format, which version of the Office Suite, even which OS was used to create the files. Documentation about the format wont help much because implementation is so far away from it. Wrt the ribbon argument, i'm glad it's over. If the 'must have a ribbon' they can have Kingsoft [shrugs]. The reason for LO to have one has now vanished because there is an alternative to MSO that has one. People will get tired of Kingsoft and may be more receptive to LO. Regards from Tom :) From: Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com To: users@global.libreoffice.org Sent: Friday, 7 June 2013, 23:10 Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: CNET is claiming the best free MSO alternative is not LO On 6/7/13 3:41 AM, Tom Davies wrote: snip I too wouldn't touch Kingsoft with a barge pole. I want to steer towards using formats that will be around and usable in a few years time. I want to be able to open documents maybe 10-20 years from now without having to struggle against malware and without having to try to find long-dead versions of long dead software produced by a company that may not even exist by then. You just hope the formats will be around 10-20 years from now. There's no guaranteed the current ODT format will even be viable then. Similar to the way desktop design interfaces are basically horrible on cell phones and tablets (IMO), all of it can change almost overnight with hardware changes. I stopped installing LO on the free computers I occasionally rebuild. Why? Because I guessed the odds were the recipients would be more familiar with the Office interface, or their friends that helped them would. And my goal was to make it easy for them. Plus, too many LO bugs that just pissed me off. sad smile What i tend to find is that people use all sorts of rubbishy excuses for why they 'cant' move away from certain software. They moan and grumble about petty issues in an alternative they have been handed but then go and find some other alternative that they feel more in control of because they chose it. Once they have made the break away from that certain software they become more reasonable about looking at other alternatives realistically. You're pretty much right here, Tom. It seems that while users will look at 5, 10, 15 different TV's, they don't do that with software or computer systems. And that probably has a lot to do with the fact you can't find anything in the stores to look at. I used to do this, got far, far away from that, now going back to looking for the computer tools that work for me. At the moment, I'm trying the demo of a program for writing, and if things keep working out the way they seem to be, you won't see me using Writer, Word, or any other standard office suite word processor ever again. One of the commonest grumbles i hear about LO (at the moment) is that it uses the old interface and not the nice new ribbon-bar. So, 'obviously' LO is old! (Easy to see how FUD develops, right?). Kingsoft neatly deal with that and such grumblers can now be pointed towards that as an alternative. Of course when i do that i will still be quite disparaging about the ribbon-bar specifically and about proprietary software (and formats) in general but at least now i can sound like it's not just sour grapes, just because LO hasn't got it. Now i can be seen to be offering genuine choices rather than trying to herd people in a direction they might not want to go. I get tired of hearing this ribbon argument over and over again. Some people like it. Some people don't. If you want to appeal to the most users on this aspect, give people a choice. MS does, you can hide the thing. I've not used Word regularly since 2003, so I can't say whether the menu interface that appears when you hide the ribbon is as functional as its predecessors. snip -- Ken Mac OS X 10.8.4 Firefox 20.0 Thunderbird 17.0.5 LibreOffice 4.0.1.2 -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: CNET is claiming the best free MSO alternative is not LO
On 2013-06-08 10:10, Ken Springer wrote: On 6/7/13 3:41 AM, Tom Davies wrote: snip I too wouldn't touch Kingsoft with a barge pole. I want to steer towards using formats that will be around and usable in a few years time. I want to be able to open documents maybe 10-20 years from now without having to struggle against malware and without having to try to find long-dead versions of long dead software produced by a company that may not even exist by then. You just hope the formats will be around 10-20 years from now. There's no guaranteed the current ODT format will even be viable then. Similar to the way desktop design interfaces are basically horrible on cell phones and tablets (IMO), all of it can change almost overnight with hardware changes. And LO are doing it now. LO4 already drops previous file compatibility, if AOO maintains that compatibility I will be looking hard at it. Steve -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: CNET is claiming the best free MSO alternative is not LO
On 08/06/2013 at 00:10, Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com wrote: I've not used Word regularly since 2003, so I can't say whether the menu interface that appears when you hide the ribbon is as functional as its predecessors. There is no menu interface. You simply hide content of ribbons, leaving tabs at top of window. When you click on tab, it's content in ribbon-form will appear. If you want old menu in MS Office post-2007, you must buy some third party extension. While it might be good idea to give users choice about interface they like, MS is definitely not giving it their users (but MS never promised to be about choice, so it's hardly an accusation). -- Best regards Mirosław Zalewski -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: CNET is claiming the best free MSO alternative is not LO
On 6/7/13 3:41 AM, Tom Davies wrote: snip I too wouldn't touch Kingsoft with a barge pole. I want to steer towards using formats that will be around and usable in a few years time. I want to be able to open documents maybe 10-20 years from now without having to struggle against malware and without having to try to find long-dead versions of long dead software produced by a company that may not even exist by then. You just hope the formats will be around 10-20 years from now. There's no guaranteed the current ODT format will even be viable then. Similar to the way desktop design interfaces are basically horrible on cell phones and tablets (IMO), all of it can change almost overnight with hardware changes. I stopped installing LO on the free computers I occasionally rebuild. Why? Because I guessed the odds were the recipients would be more familiar with the Office interface, or their friends that helped them would. And my goal was to make it easy for them. Plus, too many LO bugs that just pissed me off. sad smile What i tend to find is that people use all sorts of rubbishy excuses for why they 'cant' move away from certain software. They moan and grumble about petty issues in an alternative they have been handed but then go and find some other alternative that they feel more in control of because they chose it. Once they have made the break away from that certain software they become more reasonable about looking at other alternatives realistically. You're pretty much right here, Tom. It seems that while users will look at 5, 10, 15 different TV's, they don't do that with software or computer systems. And that probably has a lot to do with the fact you can't find anything in the stores to look at. I used to do this, got far, far away from that, now going back to looking for the computer tools that work for me. At the moment, I'm trying the demo of a program for writing, and if things keep working out the way they seem to be, you won't see me using Writer, Word, or any other standard office suite word processor ever again. One of the commonest grumbles i hear about LO (at the moment) is that it uses the old interface and not the nice new ribbon-bar. So, 'obviously' LO is old! (Easy to see how FUD develops, right?). Kingsoft neatly deal with that and such grumblers can now be pointed towards that as an alternative. Of course when i do that i will still be quite disparaging about the ribbon-bar specifically and about proprietary software (and formats) in general but at least now i can sound like it's not just sour grapes, just because LO hasn't got it. Now i can be seen to be offering genuine choices rather than trying to herd people in a direction they might not want to go. I get tired of hearing this ribbon argument over and over again. Some people like it. Some people don't. If you want to appeal to the most users on this aspect, give people a choice. MS does, you can hide the thing. I've not used Word regularly since 2003, so I can't say whether the menu interface that appears when you hide the ribbon is as functional as its predecessors. snip -- Ken Mac OS X 10.8.4 Firefox 20.0 Thunderbird 17.0.5 LibreOffice 4.0.1.2 -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: CNET is claiming the best free MSO alternative is not LO
Virgil Arrington: This has been fascinating reading all of the opinions about user interfaces and the dreaded ribbon. I've not found *anyone* who actually likes the ribbon. I agree with several of you who have observed that the ribbon makes using styles much harder. And, since it's harder to use styles, it only makes it that much harder for me to teach styles to my students and effectively persuade them to use styles. Actually, Ribbon is making using styles even better, as the Styles sidebar does no longer conflict with document panes. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
