Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Defending ODF against OOXML in the UK
, since they can do more than tablets. I have a printer that will allow tablets to print to it, but need a Windows system to run the needed software. I have a 16 GB [or is it 32 GB] Nook. Yet, it cannot handle the 6 TB drive space that I have on this desktop I am typing from, plus the 6 TB worth of USB backup drives. AND NO, cloud storage will not work for everyone. I think it is not a safe place to store your private and secure business documents/files. There are too many articles about how un-safe they can be. oh well, I think I am rambling again in the wee hours of the morning. Tim L. 3:11 am - it is time for bed On 02/25/2014 01:21 PM, Virgil Arrington wrote: I haven't followed the entirety of this thread, but I live in a world which is (sadly perhaps) dominated by M$. Here in the U.S., Asus is running commercials about how good their netbooks are because they run Office (as opposed to Google Apps online with a Chromebook). In other words, they portray *real* computer users as using *real* programs like M$ Office. Now, I don't particularly like the commercials, but they indicate to me how mainstream M$ Office has become, almost to the point of blending brand names with product times (Word is to word processing as Kleenex is to facial tissues.) Again, I don't like it, but it's a reality I live with. I often have to write documents that are sent to colleagues who are using M$. What I write *must* be readable by their chosen program. They are not going to listen to an LO evangelist proclaiming the gospel of ODF. Heck, half of them can't even figure out how to put page numbers on the bottom of their pages, let alone learn an entirely new office suite with totally new concepts (page styles anyone?). For most of my word processing work, I save my documents as .ODT. When I need to share with an M$ colleague, I convert it to .DOC (rather than insisting that they use LO, which they simply won't do). It *generally* works okay, but numbered lists and bulleted lists get messed up a bit, just because of the different ways the two programs deal with those things. Having used PCs since my first Commodore 64 thirty years ago, I have long given up on any hope of seeing a true standard file format. Different programs perform tasks differently, and those differences are reflected in the information that gets stored in the native file formats. So, I don't see any hope of a true standard until all programs work the same way. I had great hope for RTF, but that bombed. Load an RTF file into four different word processors, and you'll see four different documents. Virgil -Original Message- From: Pedro Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 11:26 AM To: users@global.libreoffice.org Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: Defending ODF against OOXML in the UK nabbler wrote Good summary, worth more than 2 ¢! :) ;) nabbler wrote The problem here, as I see it, is that ODF is still in it's infancy. E.g. only recently ODF (under LibreOffice 4.1) started supporting font embedding which is an essential feature for anyone working with vector graphics, custom presentations or simply elegant text documents. MS supports font embedding since Word 6.0 (back in 1993!!!) http://support.microsoft.com/kb/188324 Isn't this issue affected by the fact that different operating systems have different default fonts? If so, it would explain the relative ease that the mono-platform m$ can solve this problem. Not really. PDF which is an ubiquitous file format also has had support for font embedding for years. All modern OSes support TrueType and OpenType fonts. I think this is mostly related to the copyright licenses of the fonts which is more problematic in editable files than in fundamentally non-editable files (like PDF) nabbler wrote and ignoring m$ fans (some paid by m$ perhaps?) would help by reducing that evolution time... It's complicated :) If you want to attract large companies who want to migrate, at least the Import filter needs to be nearly perfect. I think the developers are wise enough to know when to ignore cheap CEOs who just want a replacement for their Office suite for free while still demanding to have perfect MS format Export... In any case LO (or any ODF based suite) can not afford to become an island. Not even Microsoft can :) That is why they pretend to support ODF (while at the same time most ODF files not created/modified in MS Office are either corrupted or will be missing features...) At the end of the day: it's better not to be a fundamentalist ;) Take care! -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Defending-ODF-against-OOXML-in-the-UK-tp4098594p4098967.html Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Defending ODF against OOXML in the UK
As an aside: The following is why things are they way they are in business, any more. On Tue, 25 Feb 2014 17:54:35 -0500 Virgil Arrington cuyfa...@hotmail.com wrote: Since the IT department was under the authority of the finance department, ... [snip] We've avoided IT falling under control of the bean counters, where I work. If that ever changes: I'm outta here. Regards, Jim -- Note: My mail server employs *very* aggressive anti-spam filtering. If you reply to this email and your email is rejected, please accept my apologies and let me know via my web form at http://jimsun.LinxNet.com/contact/scform.php. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Defending ODF against OOXML in the UK
On Tue, 25 Feb 2014 18:27:58 -0500 Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com wrote: Pedro I stand corrected. Thanks, I in the US where I am and the US tech press rarely mentions Europe is moving towards ODF. (Snide comments about faux journalists being MS lap dogs). [snip] More a case of the U.S. being U.S.-centric... to the point where the rest of the world doesn't matter. But that's another topic, for another day, hopefully in another place ;) Regards, Jim -- Note: My mail server employs *very* aggressive anti-spam filtering. If you reply to this email and your email is rejected, please accept my apologies and let me know via my web form at http://jimsun.LinxNet.com/contact/scform.php. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Defending ODF against OOXML in the UK
On Wed, 2014-02-26 at 06:59 -0500, Jim Seymour wrote: We've avoided IT falling under control of the bean counters, where I work. If that ever changes: I'm outta here. On the other side of the coin, I was a Group Management/Systems accountant in a publicly-quoted IT company some years ago. We had J D Edwards ERM system running on AIX. (And I have a few stories about THAT as well!) The Group Finance Department wanted a reporting tool to ensure integrity of reporting. We did some research and eventually purchased Hyperion - an industry-standard reporting tool. The IT dept refused to install it, saying they hadn't been consulted. One example of the organisation existing for the IT dept's benefit, rather than the other way round! ;-) -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Defending ODF against OOXML in the UK
Kracked_P_P---webmaster wrote: Now once we have LO for Android and Mac i devices, There is a version of OpenOffice for Android now available. That will certainly meet your requirements for working with ODF on a tablet, though you'll want one with a large display. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Defending ODF against OOXML in the UK
Gordon wrote: The IT dept refused to install it, saying they hadn't been consulted. One example of the organisation existing for the IT dept's benefit, rather than the other way round! ;-) been there Virgil -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Defending ODF against OOXML in the UK
On Wed, 26 Feb 2014 12:36:51 + Gordon Burgess-Parker gor...@gbpcomputing.co.uk wrote: [snip] The IT dept refused to install it, saying they hadn't been consulted. One example of the organisation existing for the IT dept's benefit, rather than the other way round! ;-) I guess I was being too subtle, by far :). Was trying not to insult of offend anybody. My larger point was that corporate decisions these days are more often made by people who add numbers than those who innovate. I agree, re: The role of I.T. I.T. is not an end, but a means. Regards, Jim -- Note: My mail server employs *very* aggressive anti-spam filtering. If you reply to this email and your email is rejected, please accept my apologies and let me know via my web form at http://jimsun.LinxNet.com/contact/scform.php. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Defending ODF against OOXML in the UK
Kracked wrote: The International Standards people choose ODF. So now we can start asking people to use the International Standard for office suite file formats - ODF. Sure MS really needs to get their act together and read/write ODF properly so they to will offer THE standard - ODF. This reminds me of the '60s bumper sticker that read, What if they held a war and nobody showed up? What if the International Standards people chose a standard format and nobody listened? We can complain as much as we want about MS not using the internationally accepted standard, but as long as the end users are flocking to Word and .DOCX, it is the de factor standard. Again, I don't like it, but standards are determined by the marketplace, not by the dictates of some international board. If I asked a colleague to use ODF file formats because some International board declared it to be the standard, they would laugh me out of my office. Everybody uses Word, they would say, and I'd have to admit, they'd be right. I agree that MS should properly implement the standard. But, what if they don't? People will still by Word and still send documents in DOCX format and the rest of us will still stay up late complaining about it on LO list serves. *sigh* Virgil -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Defending ODF against OOXML in the UK
Jim Seymour wrote: I agree, re: The role of I.T. I.T. is not an end, but a means. ;-) -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Defending ODF against OOXML in the UK
On Wed, 2014-02-26 at 07:58 -0500, James Knott wrote: Kracked_P_P---webmaster wrote: Now once we have LO for Android and Mac i devices, There is a version of OpenOffice for Android now available. That will certainly meet your requirements for working with ODF on a tablet, though you'll want one with a large display. If you're talking about Euro Office, it only supports odt at the moment. Support for ods and odp is promised in future releases. Having said that - it seems to work pretty well on a Kindle Fire HD... -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Defending ODF against OOXML in the UK
Hi :) Please can anyone with anything to say about ODF please post comments to the consultation exercise http://www.consortiuminfo.org/standardsblog/article.php?story=20140220165521599 I think you can post even if you are not English or have trouble writing in English. Go for it! My view is that ODF is the only format that really has true interoperability at the moment. In the future i suspect it will become MUCH more widely prevalent and files stored in almost any other format might struggle to be opened. People might be using DocX quite a bit at the moment but each version of MS Office seems to give fairly different results when trying to display files written with other versions of MS Office. The various different implementations of MS's OOXML have been given different names. 2007 and 2010 were using a transistional OOXML (ie NOT pure as per the ISO standard and not the same as each other). 2013 and 365 supposedly use strict but in the future they might well change again with no documentation describing the changes (unlike the well documented changes between ODF 1.2 and extended. Also it's unlikely that programs can easily switch between strict and whichever is used as default (unlike OO and LO) Regards from Tom :) On 26 February 2014 12:36, Gordon Burgess-Parker gor...@gbpcomputing.co.uk wrote: On Wed, 2014-02-26 at 06:59 -0500, Jim Seymour wrote: We've avoided IT falling under control of the bean counters, where I work. If that ever changes: I'm outta here. On the other side of the coin, I was a Group Management/Systems accountant in a publicly-quoted IT company some years ago. We had J D Edwards ERM system running on AIX. (And I have a few stories about THAT as well!) The Group Finance Department wanted a reporting tool to ensure integrity of reporting. We did some research and eventually purchased Hyperion - an industry-standard reporting tool. The IT dept refused to install it, saying they hadn't been consulted. One example of the organisation existing for the IT dept's benefit, rather than the other way round! ;-) -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Defending ODF against OOXML in the UK
On Wed, 2014-02-26 at 10:08 -0500, James Knott wrote: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.andropenoffice That doesn't work on my Kindle - tried it and kept getting an error message about not being able to download resources... -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Defending ODF against OOXML in the UK
Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote: On Wed, 2014-02-26 at 10:08 -0500, James Knott wrote: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.andropenoffice That doesn't work on my Kindle - tried it and kept getting an error message about not being able to download resources... That would be a Kindle problem then. It installed fine on my Nexus 7 tablet. There is also an OpenOffice document viewer available. A friend of mine has similar issues with her Kobo book reader. It's a customized Android tablet that can't install many apps. I would recommend people buy proper tablets than Android book readers, even if though they may be cheaper. Android tablets are also available with bigger displays than book readers, which make them more useful for some things. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Defending ODF against OOXML in the UK
James E Lang wrote: I wish I could afford to purchase a 10 Android tablet. As it stands I am running this app on my 4.1 Motorola Atrix phone and though it's imperfect I am thrilled to be able to do so. Some day … :-) I have a Nexus 7 tablet and Nexus 5 phone. There are certainly things I can do on my phone, but prefer to do on my tablet, due to the larger display. There are also things I do on my tablet that would be better on a larger one. However, regular Android devices should allow you to run all apps, regardless of whether the display size is really the best. On the other hand, ereader tablets often won't let you even install or run something you need. There are also some low price tablets that limit your options. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Defending ODF against OOXML in the UK
On February 26, 2014 4:58:25 AM PST, James Knott wrote: There is a version of OpenOffice for Android now available. That will certainly meet your requirements for working with ODF on a tablet, AndroOffice is suitable only for editing _small_ documents. The major issues are: * Navigation. Navigator does not work; * Size constraints: If the document is larger than about 2 MB in size, the document will not be opened; * Spell-checking: Custom dictionaries can not be installed on stock tablets. (IOW, you have to root the device, in order to add dictionaries.) * Extensions. Allegedly, they can be installed, but I've been extremely unsuccessful in doing so; * Templates: Allegedly, you can install your own, but I've been unsuccessful in doing so; * Database: Forget it. Install SQLiteManager, and learn SQL; All that said, I constructed a couple of spreadsheets to replace apps that I installed. A side-effect is that the spreadsheets can accept more types of data, and spit out more types of data, than the apps do. Two major issues with tablets as desktop/laptop replacements, is that they are neither multi-tasking, nor multi-user. (Prior to getting my tablet, the last non-multi-user, non-multi-tasking platform was when I had an Apple //e.) (Whilst I can install *Nix on the tablet, that requires rooting the system, and replacing the kernel. Something I'm not comfortable doing.) jonathon -- Your language. Your documents. Your way. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Defending ODF against OOXML in the UK
Jonathon wrote: Two major issues with tablets as desktop/laptop replacements, is that they are neither multi-tasking, nor multi-user. Later versions of Android support multiple users. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Defending ODF against OOXML in the UK
On February 26, 2014 7:37:15 AM PST, James Knott james.kn...@rogers.com wrote: Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote: On Wed, 2014-02-26 at 10:08 -0500, James Knott wrote: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.andropenoffice That doesn't work on my Kindle - tried it and kept getting an error message about not being able to download resources... That would be a Kindle problem then. It installed fine on my Nexus 7 tablet. There is also an OpenOffice document viewer available. A friend of mine has similar issues with her Kobo book reader. It's a customized Android tablet that can't install many apps. I would recommend people buy proper tablets than Android book readers, even if though they may be cheaper. Android tablets are also available with bigger displays than book readers, which make them more useful for some things. I wish I could afford to purchase a 10 Android tablet. As it stands I am running this app on my 4.1 Motorola Atrix phone and though it's imperfect I am thrilled to be able to do so. Some day … :-) -- Jim -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Defending ODF against OOXML in the UK
On 24/02/2014, Pedro pedl...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Jim Jim Seymour wrote This is all rather unbecoming, don't you guys think? Not really. This is just the two extremist sides of the ODF vs MS-formats. There are indeed some users (not Tanstaafl) who just want a free office suite that perfectly supports MS-formats (and don't care about free file formats as long as they can get the software for free as in beer). And there are the ODF fundamentalists (like e-letter) that say that LO should only support MS-formats for Import and even so that developers shouldn't waste too much time on that :) Good summary, worth more than 2 ¢! :) The problem here, as I see it, is that ODF is still in it's infancy. E.g. only recently ODF (under LibreOffice 4.1) started supporting font embedding which is an essential feature for anyone working with vector graphics, custom presentations or simply elegant text documents. MS supports font embedding since Word 6.0 (back in 1993!!!) http://support.microsoft.com/kb/188324 Isn't this issue affected by the fact that different operating systems have different default fonts? If so, it would explain the relative ease that the mono-platform m$ can solve this problem. LO and ODF are evolving quite fast but there is still a long way to go. and ignoring m$ fans (some paid by m$ perhaps?) would help by reducing that evolution time... -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: Defending ODF against OOXML in the UK
nabbler wrote Good summary, worth more than 2 ¢! :) ;) nabbler wrote The problem here, as I see it, is that ODF is still in it's infancy. E.g. only recently ODF (under LibreOffice 4.1) started supporting font embedding which is an essential feature for anyone working with vector graphics, custom presentations or simply elegant text documents. MS supports font embedding since Word 6.0 (back in 1993!!!) http://support.microsoft.com/kb/188324 Isn't this issue affected by the fact that different operating systems have different default fonts? If so, it would explain the relative ease that the mono-platform m$ can solve this problem. Not really. PDF which is an ubiquitous file format also has had support for font embedding for years. All modern OSes support TrueType and OpenType fonts. I think this is mostly related to the copyright licenses of the fonts which is more problematic in editable files than in fundamentally non-editable files (like PDF) nabbler wrote and ignoring m$ fans (some paid by m$ perhaps?) would help by reducing that evolution time... It's complicated :) If you want to attract large companies who want to migrate, at least the Import filter needs to be nearly perfect. I think the developers are wise enough to know when to ignore cheap CEOs who just want a replacement for their Office suite for free while still demanding to have perfect MS format Export... In any case LO (or any ODF based suite) can not afford to become an island. Not even Microsoft can :) That is why they pretend to support ODF (while at the same time most ODF files not created/modified in MS Office are either corrupted or will be missing features...) At the end of the day: it's better not to be a fundamentalist ;) Take care! -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Defending-ODF-against-OOXML-in-the-UK-tp4098594p4098967.html Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Defending ODF against OOXML in the UK
I haven't followed the entirety of this thread, but I live in a world which is (sadly perhaps) dominated by M$. Here in the U.S., Asus is running commercials about how good their netbooks are because they run Office (as opposed to Google Apps online with a Chromebook). In other words, they portray *real* computer users as using *real* programs like M$ Office. Now, I don't particularly like the commercials, but they indicate to me how mainstream M$ Office has become, almost to the point of blending brand names with product times (Word is to word processing as Kleenex is to facial tissues.) Again, I don't like it, but it's a reality I live with. I often have to write documents that are sent to colleagues who are using M$. What I write *must* be readable by their chosen program. They are not going to listen to an LO evangelist proclaiming the gospel of ODF. Heck, half of them can't even figure out how to put page numbers on the bottom of their pages, let alone learn an entirely new office suite with totally new concepts (page styles anyone?). For most of my word processing work, I save my documents as .ODT. When I need to share with an M$ colleague, I convert it to .DOC (rather than insisting that they use LO, which they simply won't do). It *generally* works okay, but numbered lists and bulleted lists get messed up a bit, just because of the different ways the two programs deal with those things. Having used PCs since my first Commodore 64 thirty years ago, I have long given up on any hope of seeing a true standard file format. Different programs perform tasks differently, and those differences are reflected in the information that gets stored in the native file formats. So, I don't see any hope of a true standard until all programs work the same way. I had great hope for RTF, but that bombed. Load an RTF file into four different word processors, and you'll see four different documents. Virgil -Original Message- From: Pedro Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 11:26 AM To: users@global.libreoffice.org Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: Defending ODF against OOXML in the UK nabbler wrote Good summary, worth more than 2 ¢! :) ;) nabbler wrote The problem here, as I see it, is that ODF is still in it's infancy. E.g. only recently ODF (under LibreOffice 4.1) started supporting font embedding which is an essential feature for anyone working with vector graphics, custom presentations or simply elegant text documents. MS supports font embedding since Word 6.0 (back in 1993!!!) http://support.microsoft.com/kb/188324 Isn't this issue affected by the fact that different operating systems have different default fonts? If so, it would explain the relative ease that the mono-platform m$ can solve this problem. Not really. PDF which is an ubiquitous file format also has had support for font embedding for years. All modern OSes support TrueType and OpenType fonts. I think this is mostly related to the copyright licenses of the fonts which is more problematic in editable files than in fundamentally non-editable files (like PDF) nabbler wrote and ignoring m$ fans (some paid by m$ perhaps?) would help by reducing that evolution time... It's complicated :) If you want to attract large companies who want to migrate, at least the Import filter needs to be nearly perfect. I think the developers are wise enough to know when to ignore cheap CEOs who just want a replacement for their Office suite for free while still demanding to have perfect MS format Export... In any case LO (or any ODF based suite) can not afford to become an island. Not even Microsoft can :) That is why they pretend to support ODF (while at the same time most ODF files not created/modified in MS Office are either corrupted or will be missing features...) At the end of the day: it's better not to be a fundamentalist ;) Take care! -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Defending-ODF-against-OOXML-in-the-UK-tp4098594p4098967.html Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Defending ODF against OOXML in the UK
On Tue, 25 Feb 2014 13:21:29 -0500 Virgil Arrington cuyfa...@hotmail.com wrote: [snip] I often have to write documents that are sent to colleagues who are using M$. What I write *must* be readable by their chosen program. They are not going to listen to an LO evangelist proclaiming the gospel of ODF. [snip] Humourous aside: A few months ago one of my internal customers complained they weren't able to open a document emailed to them by somebody at A Very Large International Automobile Manufacturer. Looked at the attachment, and darned if it wasn't ODF :) Regards, Jim -- Note: My mail server employs *very* aggressive anti-spam filtering. If you reply to this email and your email is rejected, please accept my apologies and let me know via my web form at http://jimsun.LinxNet.com/contact/scform.php. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Defending ODF against OOXML in the UK
Hi :) Sadly it's not possible to avoid being a fundamentalist with regards to this issue. Avoiding being a fundamentalist for one means tacitly encouraging the blocking of it by the dominant one. People are so unaware of their even being a choice that by not spreading knowledge of ODF people are forcing others to use the other. Regards from Tom :) On 25 February 2014 16:26, Pedro pedl...@gmail.com wrote: nabbler wrote Good summary, worth more than 2 ¢! :) ;) nabbler wrote The problem here, as I see it, is that ODF is still in it's infancy. E.g. only recently ODF (under LibreOffice 4.1) started supporting font embedding which is an essential feature for anyone working with vector graphics, custom presentations or simply elegant text documents. MS supports font embedding since Word 6.0 (back in 1993!!!) http://support.microsoft.com/kb/188324 Isn't this issue affected by the fact that different operating systems have different default fonts? If so, it would explain the relative ease that the mono-platform m$ can solve this problem. Not really. PDF which is an ubiquitous file format also has had support for font embedding for years. All modern OSes support TrueType and OpenType fonts. I think this is mostly related to the copyright licenses of the fonts which is more problematic in editable files than in fundamentally non-editable files (like PDF) nabbler wrote and ignoring m$ fans (some paid by m$ perhaps?) would help by reducing that evolution time... It's complicated :) If you want to attract large companies who want to migrate, at least the Import filter needs to be nearly perfect. I think the developers are wise enough to know when to ignore cheap CEOs who just want a replacement for their Office suite for free while still demanding to have perfect MS format Export... In any case LO (or any ODF based suite) can not afford to become an island. Not even Microsoft can :) That is why they pretend to support ODF (while at the same time most ODF files not created/modified in MS Office are either corrupted or will be missing features...) At the end of the day: it's better not to be a fundamentalist ;) Take care! -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Defending-ODF-against-OOXML-in-the-UK-tp4098594p4098967.html Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Defending ODF against OOXML in the UK
On 02/25/2014 01:21 PM, Virgil Arrington wrote: I haven't followed the entirety of this thread, but I live in a world which is (sadly perhaps) dominated by M$. Here in the U.S., Asus is running commercials about how good their netbooks are because they run Office (as opposed to Google Apps online with a Chromebook). In other words, they portray *real* computer users as using *real* programs like M$ Office. Now, I don't particularly like the commercials, but they indicate to me how mainstream M$ Office has become, almost to the point of blending brand names with product times (Word is to word processing as Kleenex is to facial tissues.) Again, I don't like it, but it's a reality I live with. I often have to write documents that are sent to colleagues who are using M$. What I write *must* be readable by their chosen program. They are not going to listen to an LO evangelist proclaiming the gospel of ODF. Heck, half of them can't even figure out how to put page numbers on the bottom of their pages, let alone learn an entirely new office suite with totally new concepts (page styles anyone?). For most of my word processing work, I save my documents as .ODT. When I need to share with an M$ colleague, I convert it to .DOC (rather than insisting that they use LO, which they simply won't do). It *generally* works okay, but numbered lists and bulleted lists get messed up a bit, just because of the different ways the two programs deal with those things. Having used PCs since my first Commodore 64 thirty years ago, I have long given up on any hope of seeing a true standard file format. Different programs perform tasks differently, and those differences are reflected in the information that gets stored in the native file formats. So, I don't see any hope of a true standard until all programs work the same way. I had great hope for RTF, but that bombed. Load an RTF file into four different word processors, and you'll see four different documents. Virgil I think the issue is MS claiming that using ODF formats as defaults will somehow break MSO. As I understand the issue, the UK government is specifying the file formats not the applications. Since they are proposing using ODF formats this levels the playing field and allows any application to compete on value not just LO or AOO. This includes other commercial products also. If MS loses the ODF fight in the UK and Europe, they are afraid that MSO market share will drop with time as people look for alternatives to paying MS a fee. The only cudgel MS has now file format lock-in but if many national governments refuse to play they can change the default formats nationally. If the UK goes through with ODF formats, first the UK government switches, then businesses and people who routinely directly interact with the government will change, then those on the periphery will change. They will change for the reason you alluded to; they want to keep up with only one version not two or three versions in different formats. Eventually the UK will use ODF formats almost everywhere. Note, I never said that users must change from MSO unless MS refuses to support ODF formats and refuses to backport parsers for MSO 2007 and 2010. However, Since several suites properly handle ODF already then it is easier for a user to switch to another suite (hopefully a FOSS solution). Assuming MS loses the ODF fight, then having MSO becomes less important to all users. Many are currently staying with Windows because of MSO. So a major impediment to using LO and Linux is removed for many, some will migrate to LO (or something else) and Linux and become permanently lost sales to MS. I am a Linux user and would love to only use ODF format for office files. I am a lost sale to MS; no Windows, no MSO, no other MS products because they do not release software for Linux. The longer I use Linux without any MS applications the more likely in the future I will ignore Linux releases from MS. I am becoming MS' worst nightmare; a user who does not use their products or services for anything. Multiply this in the UK, instead of a few percent of Linux desktop users you could have 15-20% very easily and very rapidly. especially with ChromeOS and SteamOS available. This is a noticeable effect in one country. Another effect of ODF in the UK is that UK companies will be using ODF formats in the future. Their overseas subsidiaries will be forced to adopt ODF formats to communicate internally so beachheads will be made unintentionally in other countries. This effect will be magnified if Europe follows the UK lead. The problem with RTF was it was another MS controlled format. snip -- Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Defending ODF against OOXML in the UK
Jay, Makes perfect sense to me. I do think that software changes are often made as a result of the file formats rather than the programs themselves. A few years ago, most lawyers in the U.S. used WordPerfect, and they really liked it. It had some features that were very suitable for the law office. However, most of their corporate clients were using Word. (Nobody ever got fired for buying Microsoft). Over time, law offices began migrating to Word, not because they liked the program better, but because they needed file compatibility with their clients. Now, WordPerfect is all but an afterthought. I formerly worked in a local government law department. For years, each department was permitted to select its own programs. So, we used WordPerfect's office suite, while the finance department (which preferred Excel) used MS Office. The IT department got tired of supporting multiple office suites and decided the government offices all needed to standardize on one program. Since the IT department was under the authority of the finance department, you can guess which office suite was chosen. Despite our protestations, we were overruled and converted to Office. Even then, I would use OpenOffice when I didn't need to share files with others, just to assert my freedom. Virgil -Original Message- From: Jay Lozier Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 2:46 PM To: users@global.libreoffice.org Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Defending ODF against OOXML in the UK On 02/25/2014 01:21 PM, Virgil Arrington wrote: I haven't followed the entirety of this thread, but I live in a world which is (sadly perhaps) dominated by M$. Here in the U.S., Asus is running commercials about how good their netbooks are because they run Office (as opposed to Google Apps online with a Chromebook). In other words, they portray *real* computer users as using *real* programs like M$ Office. Now, I don't particularly like the commercials, but they indicate to me how mainstream M$ Office has become, almost to the point of blending brand names with product times (Word is to word processing as Kleenex is to facial tissues.) Again, I don't like it, but it's a reality I live with. I often have to write documents that are sent to colleagues who are using M$. What I write *must* be readable by their chosen program. They are not going to listen to an LO evangelist proclaiming the gospel of ODF. Heck, half of them can't even figure out how to put page numbers on the bottom of their pages, let alone learn an entirely new office suite with totally new concepts (page styles anyone?). For most of my word processing work, I save my documents as .ODT. When I need to share with an M$ colleague, I convert it to .DOC (rather than insisting that they use LO, which they simply won't do). It *generally* works okay, but numbered lists and bulleted lists get messed up a bit, just because of the different ways the two programs deal with those things. Having used PCs since my first Commodore 64 thirty years ago, I have long given up on any hope of seeing a true standard file format. Different programs perform tasks differently, and those differences are reflected in the information that gets stored in the native file formats. So, I don't see any hope of a true standard until all programs work the same way. I had great hope for RTF, but that bombed. Load an RTF file into four different word processors, and you'll see four different documents. Virgil I think the issue is MS claiming that using ODF formats as defaults will somehow break MSO. As I understand the issue, the UK government is specifying the file formats not the applications. Since they are proposing using ODF formats this levels the playing field and allows any application to compete on value not just LO or AOO. This includes other commercial products also. If MS loses the ODF fight in the UK and Europe, they are afraid that MSO market share will drop with time as people look for alternatives to paying MS a fee. The only cudgel MS has now file format lock-in but if many national governments refuse to play they can change the default formats nationally. If the UK goes through with ODF formats, first the UK government switches, then businesses and people who routinely directly interact with the government will change, then those on the periphery will change. They will change for the reason you alluded to; they want to keep up with only one version not two or three versions in different formats. Eventually the UK will use ODF formats almost everywhere. Note, I never said that users must change from MSO unless MS refuses to support ODF formats and refuses to backport parsers for MSO 2007 and 2010. However, Since several suites properly handle ODF already then it is easier for a user to switch to another suite (hopefully a FOSS solution). Assuming MS loses the ODF fight, then having MSO becomes less important to all users. Many are currently
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Defending ODF against OOXML in the UK
On 02/25/2014 05:54 PM, Virgil Arrington wrote: Jay, Makes perfect sense to me. I do think that software changes are often made as a result of the file formats rather than the programs themselves. A few years ago, most lawyers in the U.S. used WordPerfect, and they really liked it. It had some features that were very suitable for the law office. However, most of their corporate clients were using Word. (Nobody ever got fired for buying Microsoft). Over time, law offices began migrating to Word, not because they liked the program better, but because they needed file compatibility with their clients. Now, WordPerfect is all but an afterthought. I formerly worked in a local government law department. For years, each department was permitted to select its own programs. So, we used WordPerfect's office suite, while the finance department (which preferred Excel) used MS Office. The IT department got tired of supporting multiple office suites and decided the government offices all needed to standardize on one program. Since the IT department was under the authority of the finance department, you can guess which office suite was chosen. Despite our protestations, we were overruled and converted to Office. Even then, I would use OpenOffice when I didn't need to share files with others, just to assert my freedom. Virgil If ODF formats were used like the UK wants then different groups can use whatever program works best for them. As you noted US lawyers preferred WordPerfect while accountants preferred Excel. This competition is what MS fears because without vendor lock-in one can spend money one wants. snip -Original Message- From: Jay Lozier Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 2:46 PM To: users@global.libreoffice.org Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Defending ODF against OOXML in the UK On 02/25/2014 01:21 PM, Virgil Arrington wrote: I haven't followed the entirety of this thread, but I live in a world which is (sadly perhaps) dominated by M$. Here in the U.S., Asus is running commercials about how good their netbooks are because they run Office (as opposed to Google Apps online with a Chromebook). In other words, they portray *real* computer users as using *real* programs like M$ Office. Now, I don't particularly like the commercials, but they indicate to me how mainstream M$ Office has become, almost to the point of blending brand names with product times (Word is to word processing as Kleenex is to facial tissues.) Again, I don't like it, but it's a reality I live with. I often have to write documents that are sent to colleagues who are using M$. What I write *must* be readable by their chosen program. They are not going to listen to an LO evangelist proclaiming the gospel of ODF. Heck, half of them can't even figure out how to put page numbers on the bottom of their pages, let alone learn an entirely new office suite with totally new concepts (page styles anyone?). For most of my word processing work, I save my documents as .ODT. When I need to share with an M$ colleague, I convert it to .DOC (rather than insisting that they use LO, which they simply won't do). It *generally* works okay, but numbered lists and bulleted lists get messed up a bit, just because of the different ways the two programs deal with those things. Having used PCs since my first Commodore 64 thirty years ago, I have long given up on any hope of seeing a true standard file format. Different programs perform tasks differently, and those differences are reflected in the information that gets stored in the native file formats. So, I don't see any hope of a true standard until all programs work the same way. I had great hope for RTF, but that bombed. Load an RTF file into four different word processors, and you'll see four different documents. Virgil I think the issue is MS claiming that using ODF formats as defaults will somehow break MSO. As I understand the issue, the UK government is specifying the file formats not the applications. Since they are proposing using ODF formats this levels the playing field and allows any application to compete on value not just LO or AOO. This includes other commercial products also. If MS loses the ODF fight in the UK and Europe, they are afraid that MSO market share will drop with time as people look for alternatives to paying MS a fee. The only cudgel MS has now file format lock-in but if many national governments refuse to play they can change the default formats nationally. If the UK goes through with ODF formats, first the UK government switches, then businesses and people who routinely directly interact with the government will change, then those on the periphery will change. They will change for the reason you alluded to; they want to keep up with only one version not two or three versions in different formats. Eventually the UK will use ODF formats almost everywhere. Note, I never said that users must change from
[libreoffice-users] Re: Defending ODF against OOXML in the UK
Hi Jay Jay Lozier wrote This effect will be magnified if Europe follows the UK lead. Sorry to burst your UK centric bubble :) Most European countries have already decided for ODF... UK is not leading, it's following. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenDocument_adoption Cheers, Pedro (from Portugal, who already adopted ODF 1.1 back in 2012 :) ) -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Defending-ODF-against-OOXML-in-the-UK-tp4098594p4099013.html Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Defending ODF against OOXML in the UK
Pedro I stand corrected. Thanks, I in the US where I am and the US tech press rarely mentions Europe is moving towards ODF. (Snide comments about faux journalists being MS lap dogs). Jay On 02/25/2014 06:13 PM, Pedro wrote: Hi Jay Jay Lozier wrote This effect will be magnified if Europe follows the UK lead. Sorry to burst your UK centric bubble :) Most European countries have already decided for ODF... UK is not leading, it's following. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenDocument_adoption Cheers, Pedro (from Portugal, who already adopted ODF 1.1 back in 2012 :) ) -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Defending-ODF-against-OOXML-in-the-UK-tp4098594p4099013.html Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Defending ODF against OOXML in the UK
Virgil Arrington wrote: A few years ago, most lawyers in the U.S. used WordPerfect, and they really liked it. It had some features that were very suitable for the law office. However, most of their corporate clients were using Word. (Nobody ever got fired for buying Microsoft). Over time, law offices began migrating to Word, not because they liked the program better, but because they needed file compatibility with their clients. Now, WordPerfect is all but an afterthought. After one of one of the anti-trust cases, Microsoft received a large document in WP format. They had to go out and buy a copy of Word Perfect, to read that document. ;-) -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Defending ODF against OOXML in the UK
I believe I read somewhere that it was the law firm that MS had hired that was using WordPerfect. -Original Message- From: James Knott Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 6:42 PM To: users@global.libreoffice.org Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Defending ODF against OOXML in the UK Virgil Arrington wrote: A few years ago, most lawyers in the U.S. used WordPerfect, and they really liked it. It had some features that were very suitable for the law office. However, most of their corporate clients were using Word. (Nobody ever got fired for buying Microsoft). Over time, law offices began migrating to Word, not because they liked the program better, but because they needed file compatibility with their clients. Now, WordPerfect is all but an afterthought. After one of one of the anti-trust cases, Microsoft received a large document in WP format. They had to go out and buy a copy of Word Perfect, to read that document. ;-) -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Defending ODF against OOXML in the UK
On 02/25/2014 07:21 PM, Virgil Arrington wrote: I believe I read somewhere that it was the law firm that MS had hired that was using WordPerfect. -Original Message- From: James Knott Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 6:42 PM To: users@global.libreoffice.org Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Defending ODF against OOXML in the UK Virgil Arrington wrote: A few years ago, most lawyers in the U.S. used WordPerfect, and they really liked it. It had some features that were very suitable for the law office. However, most of their corporate clients were using Word. (Nobody ever got fired for buying Microsoft). Over time, law offices began migrating to Word, not because they liked the program better, but because they needed file compatibility with their clients. Now, WordPerfect is all but an afterthought. After one of one of the anti-trust cases, Microsoft received a large document in WP format. They had to go out and buy a copy of Word Perfect, to read that document. ;-) I love it! I still use WordPerfect on occasion. It has some features that are not duplicated anywhere else, as far as I know, and it is somewhat more user-friendly than OO and LO. (Sorry, LInux guys!) I actually use OO and LO, but when I really need to get down and dirty, WP is the place to be. --doug -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Defending ODF against OOXML in the UK
Doug wrote: but when I really need to get down and dirty, WP is the place to be. Many years ago, I occasionally had to use WP at work. I much preferred Wordstar 2000. Back then I was using PC-Write at home. ;-) -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Defending ODF against OOXML in the UK
On 23/02/2014, alexanderW f.alexander.wi...@gmail.com wrote: The proposal is only about using ODF, HTML, CSV and TXT as file formats. It doesn't mention which software would be used, so I don't see how your comment is relevant. You are unaware of the numbers of m$ fans that pollute this list demanding that the priority of LO is not to produce high quality native odf output, but instead to produce perfect m$ documents. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Defending ODF against OOXML in the UK
On 2014-02-24 1:10 PM, e-letter inp...@gmail.com wrote: You are unaware of the numbers of m$ fans that pollute this list demanding that the priority of LO is not to produce high quality native odf output, Never ever seen anyone say anything like that... but instead to produce perfect m$ documents. Definitely seen people say this should be a priority, but not a higher priority than for ODF documents. On the other hand, I have seen *you* say crap like LO shouldn't even support MS office file formats at all, which is pure rabid anti-MS rubbish. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Defending ODF against OOXML in the UK
On Mon, 24 Feb 2014 13:16:50 -0500 Tanstaafl tansta...@libertytrek.org wrote: On 2014-02-24 1:10 PM, e-letter inp...@gmail.com wrote: You are unaware of the numbers of m$ fans that pollute this list demanding that the priority of LO is not to produce high quality native odf output, Never ever seen anyone say anything like that... but instead to produce perfect m$ documents. Definitely seen people say this should be a priority, but not a higher priority than for ODF documents. On the other hand, I have seen *you* say crap like LO shouldn't even support MS office file formats at all, which is pure rabid anti-MS rubbish. This is all rather unbecoming, don't you guys think? Regards, Jim -- Note: My mail server employs *very* aggressive anti-spam filtering. If you reply to this email and your email is rejected, please accept my apologies and let me know via my web form at http://jimsun.LinxNet.com/contact/scform.php. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: Defending ODF against OOXML in the UK
The proposal is only about using ODF, HTML, CSV and TXT as file formats. It doesn't mention which software would be used, so I don't see how your comment is relevant. Am 23.02.2014 13:49, schrieb nabbler [via Document Foundation Mail Archive]: On 23/02/2014, Alexander Wilms [hidden email] /user/SendEmail.jtp?type=nodenode=4098644i=0 wrote: Hi everyone, I already posted this on the LibreOffice Google+ and Facebook pages, but there are probably quite a few people subscibed to this list who are not following either one. Despite the self-generated hype, not every Tom, Dick and Harriet are interested in these social data-collation (sorry media) tools. The UK government plans to move to open standards like ODF and HTML and apparently Microsoft didn't know that people can voice their opinions on the proposal since January and started to spread some FUD once again a few days ago. If you think that truly open standards are a better solution than OOXML, then it'd be beneficial if you registered on the standards.data.gov.uk page and commented. In 3 days, comments will be closed. Thanks for informing us, but in addition users have to be educated about the benefits of _not_ using LO and an m$ clone and actually promote the odf standard themselves. Continual bug reports about m$ suggest otherwise. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email] /user/SendEmail.jtp?type=nodenode=4098644i=1 Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion below: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Defending-ODF-against-OOXML-in-the-UK-tp4098594p4098644.html To unsubscribe from Defending ODF against OOXML in the UK, click here http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=unsubscribe_by_codenode=4098594code=Zi5hbGV4YW5kZXIud2lsbXNAZ21haWwuY29tfDQwOTg1OTR8MTQyNDc3ODE5. NAML http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=macro_viewerid=instant_html%21nabble%3Aemail.namlbase=nabble.naml.namespaces.BasicNamespace-nabble.view.web.template.NabbleNamespace-nabble.view.web.template.NodeNamespacebreadcrumbs=notify_subscribers%21nabble%3Aemail.naml-instant_emails%21nabble%3Aemail.naml-send_instant_email%21nabble%3Aemail.naml -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Defending-ODF-against-OOXML-in-the-UK-tp4098594p4098646.html Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Defending ODF against OOXML in the UK
On 02/23/2014 08:10 AM, alexanderW wrote: The proposal is only about using ODF, HTML, CSV and TXT as file formats. It doesn't mention which software would be used, so I don't see how your comment is relevant. My understanding is that each ministry could use whatever application they wish as long as they can set the default file formats to the standards. MS's FUD is self-serving because using standard formats avoids vendor lock-in but does not mean they are not an approved vendor. Am 23.02.2014 13:49, schrieb nabbler [via Document Foundation Mail Archive]: On 23/02/2014, Alexander Wilms [hidden email] /user/SendEmail.jtp?type=nodenode=4098644i=0 wrote: Hi everyone, I already posted this on the LibreOffice Google+ and Facebook pages, but there are probably quite a few people subscibed to this list who are not following either one. Despite the self-generated hype, not every Tom, Dick and Harriet are interested in these social data-collation (sorry media) tools. The UK government plans to move to open standards like ODF and HTML and apparently Microsoft didn't know that people can voice their opinions on the proposal since January and started to spread some FUD once again a few days ago. If you think that truly open standards are a better solution than OOXML, then it'd be beneficial if you registered on the standards.data.gov.uk page and commented. In 3 days, comments will be closed. Thanks for informing us, but in addition users have to be educated about the benefits of _not_ using LO and an m$ clone and actually promote the odf standard themselves. Continual bug reports about m$ suggest otherwise. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email] /user/SendEmail.jtp?type=nodenode=4098644i=1 Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion below: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Defending-ODF-against-OOXML-in-the-UK-tp4098594p4098644.html To unsubscribe from Defending ODF against OOXML in the UK, click here http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=unsubscribe_by_codenode=4098594code=Zi5hbGV4YW5kZXIud2lsbXNAZ21haWwuY29tfDQwOTg1OTR8MTQyNDc3ODE5. NAML http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=macro_viewerid=instant_html%21nabble%3Aemail.namlbase=nabble.naml.namespaces.BasicNamespace-nabble.view.web.template.NabbleNamespace-nabble.view.web.template.NodeNamespacebreadcrumbs=notify_subscribers%21nabble%3Aemail.naml-instant_emails%21nabble%3Aemail.naml-send_instant_email%21nabble%3Aemail.naml -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Defending-ODF-against-OOXML-in-the-UK-tp4098594p4098646.html Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Defending ODF against OOXML in the UK
Hi :) Don't worry about e-letter's comments! If the proposals are about the formats then it might be worth mentioning that all different programs seem to have no trouble implementing ODF as written-up in the ISO spec but almost everyone, even MS seem to have trouble implementing OOXML consistently. Hence why people have trouble sharing files, because most people are using MS stuff that seems to have different 'accidents' implementing their own format each time (hence 'accidentally' forcing people to buy the newer and newer versions) It's good that we are focussing on the formats for once! I don't think e-letter was expecting that! :) Regards from Tom :) On 23 February 2014 13:10, alexanderW f.alexander.wi...@gmail.com wrote: The proposal is only about using ODF, HTML, CSV and TXT as file formats. It doesn't mention which software would be used, so I don't see how your comment is relevant. Am 23.02.2014 13:49, schrieb nabbler [via Document Foundation Mail Archive]: On 23/02/2014, Alexander Wilms [hidden email] /user/SendEmail.jtp?type=nodenode=4098644i=0 wrote: Hi everyone, I already posted this on the LibreOffice Google+ and Facebook pages, but there are probably quite a few people subscibed to this list who are not following either one. Despite the self-generated hype, not every Tom, Dick and Harriet are interested in these social data-collation (sorry media) tools. The UK government plans to move to open standards like ODF and HTML and apparently Microsoft didn't know that people can voice their opinions on the proposal since January and started to spread some FUD once again a few days ago. If you think that truly open standards are a better solution than OOXML, then it'd be beneficial if you registered on the standards.data.gov.uk page and commented. In 3 days, comments will be closed. Thanks for informing us, but in addition users have to be educated about the benefits of _not_ using LO and an m$ clone and actually promote the odf standard themselves. Continual bug reports about m$ suggest otherwise. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email] /user/SendEmail.jtp?type=nodenode=4098644i=1 Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion below: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Defending-ODF-against-OOXML-in-the-UK-tp4098594p4098644.html To unsubscribe from Defending ODF against OOXML in the UK, click here http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=unsubscribe_by_codenode=4098594code=Zi5hbGV4YW5kZXIud2lsbXNAZ21haWwuY29tfDQwOTg1OTR8MTQyNDc3ODE5. NAML http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=macro_viewerid=instant_html%21nabble%3Aemail.namlbase=nabble.naml.namespaces.BasicNamespace-nabble.view.web.template.NabbleNamespace-nabble.view.web.template.NodeNamespacebreadcrumbs=notify_subscribers%21nabble%3Aemail.naml-instant_emails%21nabble%3Aemail.naml-send_instant_email%21nabble%3Aemail.naml -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Defending-ODF-against-OOXML-in-the-UK-tp4098594p4098646.html Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
