Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibréOffice and PDFs (Again)
On Tue, 10 Feb 2015 09:43:20 -0700 (MST) V Stuart Foote vstuart.fo...@utsa.edu wrote: Jim Seymour wrote [snip] Question: Do recent (i.e. 4.3.x.x and later) versions of LO *capably* allow the opening/editing/saving of PDF files that are writable and not encrypted or otherwise protected? Simple answer... YES, but LibreOffice is not a PDF editor and will never be. It will always import to ODF native formats, and then must export/print back to PDF as a round trip process. [snip] Surely a distinction without a difference? On Tue, 10 Feb 2015 18:19:03 + Tom Davies tomc...@gmail.com wrote: It might be possible to ask your distro's package maintainers if they would be kind enough to make a more recent version of LibreOffice available in their repos. [snip] Even my Linux Mint 17 MATE install at home has only 4.2.7 (near as I can tell, from here). I doubt I'll see an LO upgrade for Mint 13. In any event: Not particularly germane: 99-44/100% of the end-users at work are using MS-Win7 Pro, and it for them I ask this question. If LO can do the job: Great. If not: I guess we'll have to go out and but a few copies of some-or-another PDF-editing-capable thing. On Tue, 10 Feb 2015 18:47:34 + jonathon toki.kant...@gmail.com wrote: On 10/02/15 16:43, V Stuart Foote wrote: Your unsupported version of LibreOffice 3.5.7 was release 5 Oct 2012 and is well past its end-of-life from the projects perspective. - From the perspective of a commercial enterprise, the EOL dates guarantee that LibO is not suitable. This is a concept that the open source community does not seem to grasp. This is but one reason, out of many, that Linux will *never*, *ever* replace MS-Win on the desktop. It is one of the reasons I no longer suggest the idea. With thirteen months from feature freeze, to EOL, an organization doesn't have time to test, much less deploy new versions, before they are passed the EOL date. Which makes purchasing Tier 3 support mandatory. [snip] And, if we had to purchase the stuff, anyway, why not just go with the flow and continue purchasing MS Office? Not trying to be an urmas. Just trying to point out the realities of a business environment. I have all the time in the world (that I care to invest, anyway) at home. At work...? No, not so much. Even at home: I install LTS versions of stuff where I can, and let it run until it EOLs. None of the above is by way of complaint. It is what it is, and I'm more than happy with it as it is. It's worth way, *way* more than what I paid for it, so who'm I to complain? :) Thanks for the responses, everybody. I'll see if I can install 4.3.x.x or later on my laptop, under its Win7 Pro boot, and see if it'll do what we need. Regards, Jim -- Note: My mail server employs *very* aggressive anti-spam filtering. If you reply to this email and your email is rejected, please accept my apologies and let me know via my web form at http://jimsun.LinxNet.com/contact/scform.php. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibréOffice and PDFs (Again)
Hi :) PDF Editor or PDF Editing can mean many different things. It rarely means editing in the way you would edit a .doc or .odt. In a word-processor format when you delete words or add words to a sentence the whole line reflows to avoid leaving a gap or having words over-writing each other. Add or remove enough words and the rest of the paragraph adjusts and may well affect the length of the whole document. If you have images Anchored to paragraph, character or as character then those images will also move. If images (or other objects) have almost any of the wrap settings then text will usually reflow around the image rather than over-writing it or vanishing under it. With almost all PDF Editors each element on the page might be able to move around but does so without affecting other elements. An element might be a line of text, but it's very unlikely to be a whole sentence. Another element might be an image but if you move it around no text reflows around it. Sometimes words seem to be sort of sub-elements and/or individual letters can be sub-sub-elements and removing them sometimes doesn't even affect the other words in the same line, let alone the flow of the sentence. So if you are going to buy a Pdf Editor you need to make sure of what they mean by edit. Some Pdf Readers offer to convert or export Pdfs to certain formats but so far i have only seen docX being offered and then it's a bit hit-or-miss as to whether it's a transistional format that works on whichever version of MS Office you happen to have - or maybe it uses MS Office on the machine you export/convert the Pdf from and then you just have to hope you have the same version on whichever machine you are going to edit on - or hope the document works on non-MS programs. If the Pdf Readers converted/exported to Doc or Odf, rather than one of the many versions of DocX, then most of those worries would vanish. So, LibreOffice CAN edit Pdfs but only in the way most Pdf Editors mean. NOT in the way most users expect such editors to work. Regards from Tom :) On 12 February 2015 at 12:14, Jim Seymour jseym...@linxnet.com wrote: On Tue, 10 Feb 2015 09:43:20 -0700 (MST) V Stuart Foote vstuart.fo...@utsa.edu wrote: Jim Seymour wrote [snip] Question: Do recent (i.e. 4.3.x.x and later) versions of LO *capably* allow the opening/editing/saving of PDF files that are writable and not encrypted or otherwise protected? Simple answer... YES, but LibreOffice is not a PDF editor and will never be. It will always import to ODF native formats, and then must export/print back to PDF as a round trip process. [snip] Surely a distinction without a difference? On Tue, 10 Feb 2015 18:19:03 + Tom Davies tomc...@gmail.com wrote: It might be possible to ask your distro's package maintainers if they would be kind enough to make a more recent version of LibreOffice available in their repos. [snip] Even my Linux Mint 17 MATE install at home has only 4.2.7 (near as I can tell, from here). I doubt I'll see an LO upgrade for Mint 13. In any event: Not particularly germane: 99-44/100% of the end-users at work are using MS-Win7 Pro, and it for them I ask this question. If LO can do the job: Great. If not: I guess we'll have to go out and but a few copies of some-or-another PDF-editing-capable thing. On Tue, 10 Feb 2015 18:47:34 + jonathon toki.kant...@gmail.com wrote: On 10/02/15 16:43, V Stuart Foote wrote: Your unsupported version of LibreOffice 3.5.7 was release 5 Oct 2012 and is well past its end-of-life from the projects perspective. - From the perspective of a commercial enterprise, the EOL dates guarantee that LibO is not suitable. This is a concept that the open source community does not seem to grasp. This is but one reason, out of many, that Linux will *never*, *ever* replace MS-Win on the desktop. It is one of the reasons I no longer suggest the idea. With thirteen months from feature freeze, to EOL, an organization doesn't have time to test, much less deploy new versions, before they are passed the EOL date. Which makes purchasing Tier 3 support mandatory. [snip] And, if we had to purchase the stuff, anyway, why not just go with the flow and continue purchasing MS Office? Not trying to be an urmas. Just trying to point out the realities of a business environment. I have all the time in the world (that I care to invest, anyway) at home. At work...? No, not so much. Even at home: I install LTS versions of stuff where I can, and let it run until it EOLs. None of the above is by way of complaint. It is what it is, and I'm more than happy with it as it is. It's worth way, *way* more than what I paid for it, so who'm I to complain? :) Thanks for the responses, everybody. I'll see if I can install 4.3.x.x or later on my laptop, under its Win7 Pro boot, and see if it'll do what we need. Regards, Jim -- Note: My mail server employs *very* aggressive
[libreoffice-users] Re: LibréOffice and PDFs (Again)
Jim Seymour wrote Hi All, End-users are asking for the ability to edit PDFs. Spotted this: ... snip I know this does *not* work with the LO 3.5.7.2 install on my Linux Mint 13 Maya install. Before I go to the trouble of manually installing later versions of LO right-and-left, under Linux and Windows, to test this.. Question: Do recent (i.e. 4.3.x.x and later) versions of LO *capably* allow the opening/editing/saving of PDF files that are writable and not encrypted or otherwise protected? Simple answer... YES, but LibreOffice is not a PDF editor and will never be. It will always import to ODF native formats, and then must export/print back to PDF as a round trip process. LibreOffice produces high quality PDF (~v1.4) documents as export/print of any of the components. It will filter import PDF with reasonable fidelity into the Draw component--and uses a less functional PDF import for the other components--YMMV for any specific task. It will never be able to edit a PDF. If one needs that functionality--the Export to Hybrid PDF embeds a copy of the ODF document into the PDF, which current versions of LibreOffice can extract and edit natively as ODF. Saving back to PDF is via export (hybrid embedding of ODF or not) as a new PDF document. Related: Another co-worker was asking about the ability to create PDF forms. Again: Can that be done with later/current versions of LO? ODF documents support fielded data, and those documents will export to PDF (~v1.4) as passable forms. Again YMMV on achieving all functions that a proper PDF editor provides with current Adobe PDF specifications. Your unsupported version of LibreOffice 3.5.7 was release 5 Oct 2012 and is well past its end-of-life from the projects perspective. ref: LibreOffice release plan https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Release_Plan . You are of course welcome to continue to use that build if it is serviceable for your needs. But then it is likely not worth our trouble to try to assist you further... Good luck. -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/LibreOffice-and-PDFs-Again-tp4139633p4139641.html Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibréOffice and PDFs (Again)
Hi :) I think i still have a few machines on 3.5.7 but most have now upgraded to something like 4.2.7. That might have happened when i upgraded Ubuntu from 12.04 to 14.04 LTS. It might be possible to ask your distro's package maintainers if they would be kind enough to make a more recent version of LibreOffice available in their repos. They are usually a fairly friendly bunch (except in Slackware where it's allegedly just one very busy person (where bunch no longer applies but friendly does)) Regards from Tom :) On 10 February 2015 at 16:43, V Stuart Foote vstuart.fo...@utsa.edu wrote: Jim Seymour wrote Hi All, End-users are asking for the ability to edit PDFs. Spotted this: ... snip I know this does *not* work with the LO 3.5.7.2 install on my Linux Mint 13 Maya install. Before I go to the trouble of manually installing later versions of LO right-and-left, under Linux and Windows, to test this.. Question: Do recent (i.e. 4.3.x.x and later) versions of LO *capably* allow the opening/editing/saving of PDF files that are writable and not encrypted or otherwise protected? Simple answer... YES, but LibreOffice is not a PDF editor and will never be. It will always import to ODF native formats, and then must export/print back to PDF as a round trip process. LibreOffice produces high quality PDF (~v1.4) documents as export/print of any of the components. It will filter import PDF with reasonable fidelity into the Draw component--and uses a less functional PDF import for the other components--YMMV for any specific task. It will never be able to edit a PDF. If one needs that functionality--the Export to Hybrid PDF embeds a copy of the ODF document into the PDF, which current versions of LibreOffice can extract and edit natively as ODF. Saving back to PDF is via export (hybrid embedding of ODF or not) as a new PDF document. Related: Another co-worker was asking about the ability to create PDF forms. Again: Can that be done with later/current versions of LO? ODF documents support fielded data, and those documents will export to PDF (~v1.4) as passable forms. Again YMMV on achieving all functions that a proper PDF editor provides with current Adobe PDF specifications. Your unsupported version of LibreOffice 3.5.7 was release 5 Oct 2012 and is well past its end-of-life from the projects perspective. ref: LibreOffice release plan https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Release_Plan . You are of course welcome to continue to use that build if it is serviceable for your needs. But then it is likely not worth our trouble to try to assist you further... Good luck. -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/LibreOffice-and-PDFs-Again-tp4139633p4139641.html Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibréOffice and PDFs (Again)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 10/02/15 16:43, V Stuart Foote wrote: Your unsupported version of LibreOffice 3.5.7 was release 5 Oct 2012 and is well past its end-of-life from the projects perspective. - From the perspective of a commercial enterprise, the EOL dates guarantee that LibO is not suitable. With thirteen months from feature freeze, to EOL, an organization doesn't have time to test, much less deploy new versions, before they are passed the EOL date. Which makes purchasing Tier 3 support mandatory. Good for the developers that offer that. Not so good when those costs are not included in either the transitional or ongoing support budget. US$40K/year is cheaper than a new hire, but that can be hard pill to swallow, if the software was proffered on the basis of being gratis. ### Somehow, I doubt that the City of Munich offers Tier 3 support to either private individuals, or corporations. jonathon -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJU2lJAAAoJEKG7hs8nSMR7oxQQAJh5jIBzgg0hAzzkQLbqbALT 9PPYDtANLW/CHhsI6Wt0SwrirZL0VdmeUilHIP9nrBLp8tUjNBHUaBuv/UwKKdV6 nYB2Fl3ra6xfx61aU3Ku8avH5UYdXKGsM51mAwAw/SedZxENo4DEsVsZsIhA9/3I 5UVezvM9k/es2743hKSKv6qrKwxLGNYqKR9S6LePwEuk8IKN0ruHizoEFi6m8xm/ EJyl19JgIXGXSo0OBV94VLrgPMFKkMmp6c3Z5jQNUKmi4PPHcLcWMUbhIsbVEv6h UFsVAUSqs4KFIe1+Bs1wyg6TYZpg1p5geG6zZIZJ8r4vKN7as73pQGd+jpkcumkC InQTgeTm8r/kPo5wbdNRisPeCF5PfNUZF7CXylIOKJ7/lf2XspDYvXk+Ajc6eEpg zLR5g0wGiu6DuvEIXkIL91bC6ERwNNlIRWFiMlRbwPGrKT+dgFIB7GMlTCn4UeJu FUAdPbdZq9raH5FldwCbDD1wGkqROiGbI3QHZpKJYBhouJe0XYiCQQEcdDvHB+zE rXTrjfGutKP6HtrA8aKRBPsN7sFCTKn4nWCmQPsgUVn8akJnq4CMq5vHKnaQiOcb FEypQGX19+hbL6meNTK64pFUIPD20ckSWfnuJS7jrfl784HOCveJa3A6TcV7BwdM 8ri0xKnjB/GM6WFrXT/R =JM0F -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
