Re: [libreoffice-users] Overly aggressive autofomatting issues in LibreOffice

[James Knott]

On 08/26/2016 04:15 PM, Steve Edmonds wrote:
>> Maybe write a user guide: _Abusing Calc: How to do things without
>> totally destroying your data, when using Calc for that for which it is
>> neither designed to do, nor is suitable for_:
>> * Two chapters on using Calc as a text editor;
>> * Three chapters on using Calc as a database;
>> * Two chapters on using Calc as a drawing program;
>>
>> jonathon
> And don't forget calc as a photo album.
>

Someone I knew used Excel to create a road map!


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Overly aggressive autofomatting issues in LibreOffice

[Steve Edmonds]

On 2016-08-27 06:23, toki wrote:

On 26/08/2016 14:13, M Henri Day wrote:


- while dealing more specifically with Microsoft's Excel, should, as noted
in the next-to-last paragraph, give even LibreOffice developers pause. If
the claim that LibreOffice behaves like Microsoft Office in this particular

a)The actual research paper is:
  Gene name errors are widespread in the scientific literature
 Mark Ziemann,
 Yotam Eren and
 Assam El-OstaEmail author
Genome Biology201617:177
DOI: 10.1186/s13059-016-1044-7
© The Author(s). 2016
Published: 23 August 2016

Downloadable from
http://genomebiology.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13059-016-1044-7

b) Issues with gene researchers using Excel were noted as long as 1999,
with the Human Gene Project. (Researchers are still correcting errors
made by that project, because of their over-reliance on Excel, instead
of using a real database.)

c) Ignoring the issue of using the wrong tool for the job, the majority
of errors are a direct result of the researchers not knowing how to
correctly use the tool that they were using. What doesn't help matters,
is that the researchers don't realise they are having problems, until
after the fact.


some attention should be devoted to making turning off autoformatting

in Calc easier for users

Should people be encouraged to use Calc for a task for which it is
neither designed, nor suitable for, rather than using Base, which is
designed to be a database?

Maybe write a user guide: _Abusing Calc: How to do things without
totally destroying your data, when using Calc for that for which it is
neither designed to do, nor is suitable for_:
* Two chapters on using Calc as a text editor;
* Three chapters on using Calc as a database;
* Two chapters on using Calc as a drawing program;

jonathon

And don't forget calc as a photo album.

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Overly aggressive autofomatting issues in LibreOffice

[Joe Conner]

+1 ;-)

On 08/26/2016 11:23 AM, toki wrote:

<>


in Calc easier for users Should people be encouraged to use Calc for a 
task for which it is neither designed, nor suitable for, rather than 
using Base, which is designed to be a database? 


Maybe write a user guide: _Abusing Calc: How to do things without 
totally destroying your data, when using Calc for that for which it is 
neither designed to do, nor is suitable for_: * Two chapters on using 
Calc as a text editor; * Three chapters on using Calc as a database; * 
Two chapters on using Calc as a drawing program; jonathon 


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Joshua 24:15 "...as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Overly aggressive autofomatting issues in LibreOffice

[toki]

On 26/08/2016 14:13, M Henri Day wrote:

> - while dealing more specifically with Microsoft's Excel, should, as noted
> in the next-to-last paragraph, give even LibreOffice developers pause. If
> the claim that LibreOffice behaves like Microsoft Office in this particular

a)The actual research paper is:
 Gene name errors are widespread in the scientific literature
Mark Ziemann,
Yotam Eren and
Assam El-OstaEmail author
Genome Biology201617:177
DOI: 10.1186/s13059-016-1044-7
© The Author(s). 2016
Published: 23 August 2016

Downloadable from
http://genomebiology.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13059-016-1044-7

b) Issues with gene researchers using Excel were noted as long as 1999,
with the Human Gene Project. (Researchers are still correcting errors
made by that project, because of their over-reliance on Excel, instead
of using a real database.)

c) Ignoring the issue of using the wrong tool for the job, the majority
of errors are a direct result of the researchers not knowing how to
correctly use the tool that they were using. What doesn't help matters,
is that the researchers don't realise they are having problems, until
after the fact.

>some attention should be devoted to making turning off autoformatting
in Calc easier for users

Should people be encouraged to use Calc for a task for which it is
neither designed, nor suitable for, rather than using Base, which is
designed to be a database?

Maybe write a user guide: _Abusing Calc: How to do things without
totally destroying your data, when using Calc for that for which it is
neither designed to do, nor is suitable for_:
* Two chapters on using Calc as a text editor;
* Three chapters on using Calc as a database;
* Two chapters on using Calc as a drawing program;

jonathon




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Re: [libreoffice-users] Overly aggressive autofomatting issues in LibreOffice

[Wade Smart]

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Linux since June 2005


On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 10:58 AM, M Henri Day  wrote:
> 2016-08-26 17:31 GMT+02:00 Wade Smart :
>>
>> > I tried - and a popup appers to write down my mailadress and register.
>> > Couldn't read the text in background.
>> >
>> > Regards
>> >
>> > Robert
>>
>> This is what I saw as well.
>
>
> We seem to be discussing an entirely different issue from that which I
> originally proposed. I hope Cristopher Ingraham will regard it as fair use
> if I reproduce the content of the article below
> :
>
> «A surprisingly high number of scientific papers in the field of genetics
> contain errors introduced by Microsoft Excel, according to an analysis
> recently published in the journal Genome Biology.
>
> A team of Australian researchers analyzed nearly 3,600 genetics papers
> published in a number of leading scientific journals — like Nature, Science
> and PLoS One. As is common practice in the field, these papers all came with
> supplementary files containing lists of genes used in the research.
>
> The Australian researchers found that roughly 1 in 5 of these papers
> included errors in their gene lists that were due to Excel automatically
> converting gene names to things like calendar dates or random numbers.
>
> You see, genes are often referred to in scientific literature by symbols —
> essentially shortened versions of full gene names. The gene "Septin 2" is
> typically shortened as SEPT2. "Membrane-Associated Ring Finger (C3HC4) 1, E3
> Ubiquitin Protein Ligase" gets mercifully shortened to MARCH1
>
> Even worse, there's no easy way to undo this automatic formatting once it
> has happened. Edit -> Undo simply deletes everything in the cell. You can
> try to convert the formatting from "General," the default, to "Text," which
> you might expect to change it back to the original characters you enter. But
> instead, changing the formatting to "Text" makes the cell contents appear as
> 42615 — Excel's internal numeric code referring to the date 9/2/2016.
>
> Even more troubling, the researchers note that there's no way to permanently
> disable automatic date formatting within Excel. Researchers still have to
> remember to manually format columns to "Text" before you type anything in
> new Excel sheets — every. single. time.
> But even the genetics researchers among us are only human, and they
> sometimes forget to do this. Hence, you end up with 20 percent of these
> genetics papers containing preventable errors introduced by Excel.
>
> The Australian researchers note that this problem was first identified in a
> paper published more than a decade ago. "Nevertheless, we find that these
> errors continue to pervade supplementary files in the scientific
> literature," they write.
>
> Genetics isn't the only field where a life's work can potentially be
> undermined by a spreadsheet error. Harvard economists Carmen Reinhart and
> Kenneth Rogoff famously made an Excel goof — omitting a few rows of data
> from a calculation — that caused them to drastically overstate the negative
> GDP impact of high debt burdens. Researchers in other fields occasionally
> have to issue retractions after finding Excel errors as well.
>
> The Australian researchers note that Excel isn't the only spreadsheet
> program with overly aggressive autoformatting issues — the same errors crop
> up in open-source programs like LibreOffice Calc and Apache OpenOffice Calc
> too.
>
> They do note, however, that one perfectly free spreadsheet program did not
> have any issues storing the gene names as typed — Google Sheets.»
>
>
> Perhaps now we can get back to discussing the issue of overly aggressive
> autoformatting in LibreOffice ?...
>
> Henri

Looks like a user problem to me.
Is no one proof reading this papers before submission?

Wade

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Overly aggressive autofomatting issues in LibreOffice

[Jean-Baptiste Faure]

Le 26/08/2016 à 16:13, M Henri Day a écrit :
> ​This *Wapo* article (
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/08/26/an-alarming-number-of-scientific-papers-contain-excel-errors/)​
> - while dealing more specifically with Microsoft's Excel, should, as noted
> in the next-to-last paragraph, give even LibreOffice developers pause. If
> the claim that LibreOffice behaves like Microsoft Office in this particular
> respect is indeed true, then I submit that some attention should be devoted
> to making turning off autoformatting in Calc easier for users

Please, have a look here :
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101696

Best regards.
JBF


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Overly aggressive autofomatting issues in LibreOffice

[Peter]

On 27/08/16 00:13, M Henri Day wrote:

​This *Wapo* article (
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/08/26/an-alarming-number-of-scientific-papers-contain-excel-errors/)​
- while dealing more specifically with Microsoft's Excel, should, as noted
in the next-to-last paragraph, give even LibreOffice developers pause. If
the claim that LibreOffice behaves like Microsoft Office in this particular
respect is indeed true, then I submit that some attention should be devoted
to making turning off autoformatting in Calc easier for users

Henri

As a research  scientist of over 28 years, I do NOT believe the problem 
is with the spread sheet software but merely due to poor proof reading 
of the author and (presumably papers are sent for independent review 
before publication) by the independent reviewer. If this problem has 
been known for 10 years then even more shame on the authors and 
reviewers. Spreadsheets are meant for mathematical use (hence Open 
Office Calc). If you use a program for something other than it primary 
purpose the you need to take steps to ensure the appropriate steps to 
protect your data integrity.



Regards

Peter

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Overly aggressive autofomatting issues in LibreOffice

[M Henri Day]

2016-08-26 17:31 GMT+02:00 Wade Smart :

> > I tried - and a popup appers to write down my mailadress and register.
> > Couldn't read the text in background.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Robert
>
> This is what I saw as well.
>

​We seem to be discussing an entirely different issue from that which I
originally proposed. I hope Cristopher Ingraham will regard it as fair use
if I reproduce the content of the article below​
​ :

«A surprisingly high number of scientific papers in the field of genetics
contain errors introduced by Microsoft Excel, according to an analysis
recently published in the journal Genome Biology.

A team of Australian researchers analyzed nearly 3,600 genetics papers
published in a number of leading scientific journals — like Nature, Science
and PLoS One. As is common practice in the field, these papers all came
with supplementary files containing lists of genes used in the research.

The Australian researchers found that roughly 1 in 5 of these papers
included errors in their gene lists that were due to Excel automatically
converting gene names to things like calendar dates or random numbers.

You see, genes are often referred to in scientific literature by symbols —
essentially shortened versions of full gene names. The gene "Septin 2" is
typically shortened as SEPT2. "Membrane-Associated Ring Finger (C3HC4) 1,
E3 Ubiquitin Protein Ligase" gets mercifully shortened to MARCH1

Even worse, there's no easy way to undo this automatic formatting once it
has happened. Edit -> Undo simply deletes everything in the cell. You can
try to convert the formatting from "General," the default, to "Text," which
you might expect to change it back to the original characters you enter.
But instead, changing the formatting to "Text" makes the cell contents
appear as 42615 — Excel's internal numeric code referring to the date
9/2/2016.

Even more troubling, the researchers note that there's no way to
permanently disable automatic date formatting within Excel. Researchers
still have to remember to manually format columns to "Text" before you type
anything in new Excel sheets — every. single. time.
But even the genetics researchers among us are only human, and they
sometimes forget to do this. Hence, you end up with 20 percent of these
genetics papers containing preventable errors introduced by Excel.

The Australian researchers note that this problem was first identified in a
paper published more than a decade ago. "Nevertheless, we find that these
errors continue to pervade supplementary files in the scientific
literature," they write.

Genetics isn't the only field where a life's work can potentially be
undermined by a spreadsheet error. Harvard economists Carmen Reinhart and
Kenneth Rogoff famously made an Excel goof — omitting a few rows of data
from a calculation — that caused them to drastically overstate the negative
GDP impact of high debt burdens. Researchers in other fields occasionally
have to issue retractions after finding Excel errors as well.

The Australian researchers note that Excel isn't the only spreadsheet
program with overly aggressive autoformatting issues — the same errors crop
up in open-source programs like LibreOffice Calc and Apache OpenOffice Calc
too.

They do note, however, that one perfectly free spreadsheet program did not
have any issues storing the gene names as typed — Google Sheets.»​


​Perhaps now we can get back to discussing the issue of overly aggressive
autoformatting in LibreOffice ?...

Henri

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Overly aggressive autofomatting issues in LibreOffice

[Wade Smart]

> I tried - and a popup appers to write down my mailadress and register.
> Couldn't read the text in background.
>
> Regards
>
> Robert

This is what I saw as well.

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Overly aggressive autofomatting issues in LibreOffice

[mxk]

On 8/26/2016 10:21 AM, James Knott wrote:

On 08/26/2016 10:17 AM, Wade Smart wrote:

>You have to register to read the article.

I didn't have to.

Nor did I.

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Overly aggressive autofomatting issues in LibreOffice

[James Knott]

On 08/26/2016 10:17 AM, Wade Smart wrote:
> You have to register to read the article.

I didn't have to.


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Overly aggressive autofomatting issues in LibreOffice

[Wade Smart]

You have to register to read the article.
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On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 9:13 AM, M Henri Day  wrote:
> This *Wapo* article (
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/08/26/an-alarming-number-of-scientific-papers-contain-excel-errors/)
> - while dealing more specifically with Microsoft's Excel, should, as noted
> in the next-to-last paragraph, give even LibreOffice developers pause. If
> the claim that LibreOffice behaves like Microsoft Office in this particular
> respect is indeed true, then I submit that some attention should be devoted
> to making turning off autoformatting in Calc easier for users
>
> Henri
>
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> To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
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