Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice VS MS Office
On 04/24/2011 02:21 PM, Twayne wrote: The OP here sounds like no more than sour grapes to me based on his mostly wanting a free copy of MSO. LiberOffice is new and is NOT meant to simply replace MS Office. I call LibreOffice an alternative to MSO, not a direct replacement. Just like laptops are used at times instead of desktops, but there are very few laptops that have the power and graphics [and heat displacement] to replace most modern desktops. So we need to use alternative to instead of replacement for when we describe LibreOffice and MSO. There also seems to be a lot of pressure albeit indirect, to dispense with OO and LO meaning a myopic view of the world of office ??? dispense with both OO and LO ??? I think that OO will die on its own with Oracle dropping out of developing and supporting it. The key will be if they sell the OOo name and trademark to some greedy company or turn it over to the community that supports OOo. This Oracle dropping out is one of the big reasons for LibreOffice being created in the first place. suites, or a very staunch of MS. All those are fine but his stated views are pretty mixed up meaning he should take a step back and get a look at the forests instead of a few individual trees. MSOffice # OOo or LO. MSO is simply a large target area for LO/OO. In news:BANLkTi=o7YGpy03DyY8b+7K1sh_ao3A=3...@mail.gmail.com, e-letterinp...@gmail.com typed: A business that receives profits from customers that demand to use M$ software should simply pay the licences to meet their customers' demands and consider it a cost of doing business. Software does not pay the license in any way you could look at it. Licenses are for users to know what can/cannot be done with the software. Those are choices the OP must live with as they won't be written to accomodate only him. I can't tell which of the following statements you mean: ... position, and use Microsoft products; None, the example scenario is a customer (in any business, not necessarily IT) sends a document in m$ word and the recipient decides to use LO but finds that there is (minor?) loss of formatting (e.g. a table width greater than the body text margin), then writes to LO mailing list to complain that LO writer is not good enough for their needs. In this scenario, the business using LO should pay for an m$ licence to use m$ software in their business and not use LO at all. Yes. It's a matter of using what fits one's own specific needs and wants. If the OP is in a position where he must make such decisions, he needs to be asking for a transfer from the sound of it. LO should concentrate on the scenario that both a business customer and supplier are _both_ using LO software and when documents are exchanged, the documents produced and received using LO software are found to be of good quality (i.e. no bugs). LO should concentrate on whatever path appears to be the most lucrative based on what is viewed as the desired future for the product. As in, read their Mission Statement for such information; it'll clarify better than can be done here. It is not fair for LO to be expected to be an exact clone of m$ products. Exactly! Nor is it expected to be an exact clone of any other product such as the WordPerfect capabilities, PDF, and a host of others. The expectation is to meet or exceed the needs of the largest set of users as is possible. Being a clone of MSO would not accomplish that. Any business using open source software to generate a private profit should put their money where their mouth is; That's a senseless and meaningless paragraph that only the OP is likely aware of what it means. a) Do you know how many employees the average business in the united states has? That's irrelevant. Don't understand the significance. b) Do you have any idea how difficult it was for non-Sun clients to get features and functions added to OOo? Well, if you were contributing to the development and marketing of OOo or LO in any meaningful way, you would understand that better. YOUR wants needs are not necessarily even close to what the majority needs/wants. You seem to have taken a completely personal, egotistical approach to things here and it's not helping whatever point it is you wish to make. No, but presumably this justifies the creation of LO. c) Do you have any idea what the learning curve involved in knowing how to code for OOo was/is? I have a smattering of a feeling for it. Some parts are trivial, some are complex, and some are buggy. I would assume that anyone taking on a coder would mean that coder already has the needed background on his own or he's not going to be taken very seriously. LO is not a learn-to-code project, it's something entirely different. This is one of the advantages of open source; the many can contrubute and the best chosen as the way to go. No, not qualified to comment. Those three factors mitigated against organizations that were not in the IT industry from even
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice VS MS Office
On Sun, 2011-04-24 at 17:57 -0400, webmaster for Kracked Press Productions wrote: On 04/24/2011 02:21 PM, Twayne wrote: The OP here sounds like no more than sour grapes to me based on his mostly wanting a free copy of MSO. LiberOffice is new and is NOT meant to simply replace MS Office. I call LibreOffice an alternative to MSO, not a direct replacement. Just like laptops are used at times instead of desktops, but there are very few laptops that have the power and graphics [and heat displacement] to replace most modern desktops. So we need to use alternative to instead of replacement for when we describe LibreOffice and MSO. There also seems to be a lot of pressure albeit indirect, to dispense with OO and LO meaning a myopic view of the world of office ??? dispense with both OO and LO ??? I think that OO will die on its own with Oracle dropping out of developing and supporting it. The key will be if they sell the OOo name and trademark to some greedy company or turn it over to the community that supports OOo. This Oracle dropping out is one of the big reasons for LibreOffice being created in the first place. suites, or a very staunch of MS. All those are fine but his stated views are pretty mixed up meaning he should take a step back and get a look at the forests instead of a few individual trees. MSOffice # OOo or LO. MSO is simply a large target area for LO/OO. In news:BANLkTi=o7YGpy03DyY8b+7K1sh_ao3A=3...@mail.gmail.com, e-letterinp...@gmail.com typed: A business that receives profits from customers that demand to use M$ software should simply pay the licences to meet their customers' demands and consider it a cost of doing business. Software does not pay the license in any way you could look at it. Licenses are for users to know what can/cannot be done with the software. Those are choices the OP must live with as they won't be written to accomodate only him. I can't tell which of the following statements you mean: ... position, and use Microsoft products; None, the example scenario is a customer (in any business, not necessarily IT) sends a document in m$ word and the recipient decides to use LO but finds that there is (minor?) loss of formatting (e.g. a table width greater than the body text margin), then writes to LO mailing list to complain that LO writer is not good enough for their needs. In this scenario, the business using LO should pay for an m$ licence to use m$ software in their business and not use LO at all. Yes. It's a matter of using what fits one's own specific needs and wants. If the OP is in a position where he must make such decisions, he needs to be asking for a transfer from the sound of it. LO should concentrate on the scenario that both a business customer and supplier are _both_ using LO software and when documents are exchanged, the documents produced and received using LO software are found to be of good quality (i.e. no bugs). LO should concentrate on whatever path appears to be the most lucrative based on what is viewed as the desired future for the product. As in, read their Mission Statement for such information; it'll clarify better than can be done here. It is not fair for LO to be expected to be an exact clone of m$ products. Exactly! Nor is it expected to be an exact clone of any other product such as the WordPerfect capabilities, PDF, and a host of others. The expectation is to meet or exceed the needs of the largest set of users as is possible. Being a clone of MSO would not accomplish that. Any business using open source software to generate a private profit should put their money where their mouth is; That's a senseless and meaningless paragraph that only the OP is likely aware of what it means. a) Do you know how many employees the average business in the united states has? That's irrelevant. Don't understand the significance. b) Do you have any idea how difficult it was for non-Sun clients to get features and functions added to OOo? Well, if you were contributing to the development and marketing of OOo or LO in any meaningful way, you would understand that better. YOUR wants needs are not necessarily even close to what the majority needs/wants. You seem to have taken a completely personal, egotistical approach to things here and it's not helping whatever point it is you wish to make. No, but presumably this justifies the creation of LO. c) Do you have any idea what the learning curve involved in knowing how to code for OOo was/is? I have a smattering of a feeling for it. Some parts are trivial, some are complex, and some are buggy. I would assume that anyone taking on a coder would mean that coder already has the needed background on his own or he's not going to be taken very seriously. LO is not a learn-to-code project, it's something entirely different.
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice VS MS Office
Hi :) I don't quite understand the points here. There seems to be an assumption that all businesses sell MS Office. I must have missed the point. Regards from Tom :) From: e-letter inp...@gmail.com To: users@libreoffice.org Sent: Thu, 21 April, 2011 12:51:05 Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice VS MS Office The continual request to make LO more compatible with M$ office is a strategic mistake. A business that cannot afford M$ software licences for the benefit of that business' customers does not deserve to be in existence. A business that receives profits from customers that demand to use M$ software should simply pay the licences to meet their customers' demands and consider it a cost of doing business. There is no justification for complaining to the open source community for choosing to use a product that is incompatible with their customers. Any business using open source software to generate a private profit should put their money where their mouth is; pay for software to meet business needs or don't use it and pay for proprietary software instead! LO programmers should concentrate on making a good software product; that should be the priority. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice VS MS Office
Ahah, i knew i missed something! Unfortunately LibreOffice documents don't ever seem to get corrupted and there are no incompatibility issues between different releases of LO, unlike with MS Office and their formats. There only seems to be this issue about mp3 and video in ppt/pps. Writer and Calc just seem to translate formats fairly easily almost all the time. So it's really a very specific issue that could probably be fixed by Gsoc or the Vietnamese one, or perhaps by regular devs. Good luck and regards from Tom :) From: e-letter inp...@gmail.com To: users users@libreoffice.org Sent: Thu, 21 April, 2011 13:35:41 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice VS MS Office The point is, the business user receives a document in m$ word, is not prepared to pay for m$ office and so _chooses_ to use LO, then complains that LO is incompatible (never that m$o is incompatible with LO! Or ODF!). When a business user (who hopefully has made a donation to the FOSS community since higher profits may have been obtained by using OSS) receives an LO Writer document from a customer that has been corrupted during transmission between LO programs installed on customer and supplier computers, _that_ is of higher priority to resolve. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice VS MS Office
On 04/21/2011 08:35 AM, e-letter wrote: The point is, the business user receives a document in m$ word, is not prepared to pay for m$ office and so _chooses_ to use LO, then complains that LO is incompatible (never that m$o is incompatible with LO! Or ODF!). The only issue I see is with MSO's .docx Open Document type of documents that came out with MSO 2007. The original file formats work just fine. How about the compatibility issues with MSO 2010 documents being read with 2007? Have been told be some that there are issues there. The problem is not that LibreOffice is not compatible with MSO, but MSO users are using a bad file format to begin with. MSO could not provide any working documentation to the ISO committee when they wanted their x formats to be the standard. IF MSO cannot provide the documentation on how their own formats work when they wanted it to be the standard for the world to use, then how are others to get them to work. That is the real issue. If all users dump the formats MSO created for 2007, and beyond, saving their documents in .doc, .xlt, etc., then their would be no issue with compatibility. Switching from .doc to .odt could be an issue for them in the short term, since MSO mangled their ability to read/write files in ODF's ISO standard file formats [maybe on purpose]. As for blaming the user for choosing LibreOffice and then complaining about compatibility, that is never a good idea. OOo never upgraded their Migration Guide from the 2.x version. Maybe LibreOffice should make a separate guide to migrating to LibreOffice that points out step by step how to make sure all their files will be compatible with LibreOffice and 90%+ of all other non-MS office suite packages. Give them a simple, easy to read document that gives the user the guidelines on how to switch from MSO to LibreOffice. Do not make it a part of a larger document. Make it small and easy so that the average user can read it in his/her spare time before they dump MSO and not get their files in order. I tell people to use LibreOffice [OOo before] and keep MSO on their systems till they get to the point where they do not need MSO to re-save internal/external generated documents to be compatible with LibreOffice [OOo, and most other office suite that people may use]. I still get documents that cannot be read properly by LibreOffice [OOo] or MSO. When a business user (who hopefully has made a donation to the FOSS community since higher profits may have been obtained by using OSS) receives an LO Writer document from a customer that has been corrupted during transmission between LO programs installed on customer and supplier computers, _that_ is of higher priority to resolve. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice VS MS Office
Hello On Thu, 2011-04-21 at 13:35 +0100, e-letter wrote: The point is, the business user receives a document in m$ word, is not prepared to pay for m$ office and so _chooses_ to use LO, then complains that LO is incompatible (never that m$o is incompatible with LO! Or ODF!). When a business user (who hopefully has made a donation to the FOSS community since higher profits may have been obtained by using OSS) receives an LO Writer document from a customer that has been corrupted during transmission between LO programs installed on customer and supplier computers, _that_ is of higher priority to resolve. The Office XP and earlier convert properly, it is Office 2007+ formats (.docx, .xlsx, etc.) convert erratically. Conversion of the newer formats depends on the features embedded in the document. Simple documents see to convert properly. -- Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice VS MS Office
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On 21/04/11 11:06 PM, webmaster for Kracked Press Productions wrote: That is the real issue. If all users dump the formats MSO created for 2007, and beyond, saving their documents in .doc, .xlt, etc., then their would be no issue with compatibility. Which is why most of the old OOo (and now LO) documentation recommends saving to MS Word 97/2000/XP versions when you want to play nice with MS users. Switching from .doc to .odt could be an issue for them in the short term, since MSO mangled their ability to read/write files in ODF's ISO standard file formats [maybe on purpose]. There was some discussion of that at the time. MS were also trying to obtain some fairly broad software patents to try and force ODF out of the market, but since ODF already existed it counted as prior art and the patents weren't granted (except, rather notoriously, in New Zealand). As for blaming the user for choosing LibreOffice and then complaining about compatibility, that is never a good idea. Definitely not. I've come very close to kill-filing someone on this list behaving this way (along with certain daft statements about the origin of internetworking) and I've only been subscribed for less than a week. OOo never upgraded their Migration Guide from the 2.x version. Maybe LibreOffice should make a separate guide to migrating to LibreOffice that points out step by step how to make sure all their files will be compatible with LibreOffice and 90%+ of all other non-MS office suite packages. Give them a simple, easy to read document that gives the user the guidelines on how to switch from MSO to LibreOffice. Do not make it a part of a larger document. Make it small and easy so that the average user can read it in his/her spare time before they dump MSO and not get their files in order. This is an *excellent* idea. Perhaps you should forward it to the documentation mailing list? Regards, Ben -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEAREKAAYFAk2wMWEACgkQNxrFv6BK4xMbawCg3+7o7dESofTg6n9MhzYgbNmz EEkAnjld/magv4+pj8l/HKAK4Bi+9hqc =eEj3 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice VS MS Office
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 20/04/2011 18:10, t...@iafrica.com wrote: Someone please show me LibO can communicate with all basic MS packages i.e Word, Excel and PP. LibO is as compatible with MSO file formats are as MSO is compatible with MSO. Furthermore,depending upon which version of MSO you are using, LibO can be more compatible with MSO file format that you were sent. jonathon - -- If Bing copied Google, there wouldn't be anything new worth requesting. If Bing did not copy Google, there wouldn't be anything relevant worth requesting. DaveJakeman 20110207 Groklaw. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJNsKYVAAoJEERA7YuLpVrVsgAIAMElcGiRC/T7KZv22PGdDwtp Zm/GJUxySOppL/PofFgbeiKaeZux8fkvh78OdUyEj1NiDk9FmYnDOSY8ZBxm2TSL 3QjODKQukyXmg+JFnWzxRMk0P3CfEvulHc2fD08wnkg6yT34A87E71pHa7V92PBv CxYg5GPuO9hVCuBouXg653IM+jL/Yw3akMJNuZXKdg6iLbgwlwHv+il5J2Dlvlsn JPYryr+H4MPEImJ3+5/GSR6mNwCxFFsH90wEAja0P4w/iMaCqxuH6y2S/AQ3OzuW p3zBhQLNyB5go9cE62B7PnaOoorm6tx+CN5VX3e4Tly4zBVyW9Z6FoZOfYU4wMw= =Q6sL -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice VS MS Office
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 21/04/2011 11:51, e-letter wrote: A business that receives profits from customers that demand to use M$ software should simply pay the licences to meet their customers' demands and consider it a cost of doing business. I can't tell which of the following statements you mean: * If a company is Microsoft only, it should pay all of the Microsoft licenses for their vendors; * If a company is Microsoft only, it should pay all of the Microsoft licenses for their customers; * If a company is Microsoft only, it should pay all of the Microsoft licenses for their suppliers; * If a company is FLOSS only, it should abolish that position, and use Microsoft products; Any business using open source software to generate a private profit should put their money where their mouth is; a) Do you know how many employees the average business in the united states has? b) Do you have any idea how difficult it was for non-Sun clients to get features and functions added to OOo? c) Do you have any idea what the learning curve involved in knowing how to code for OOo was/is? Those three factors mitigated against organizations that were not in the IT industry from even considering customizations of OOo, much less paying for them. Once two or three organizations offer Level 4 Support for LibO, you'll see organizations that are willing to pay for the features that they want/need/desire. That is also when you'll start seeing non-IT organizations sending their customizations back upstream. LO programmers should concentrate on making a good software product; that should be the priority. One of the major criteria that businesses use in selecting software, is compatibility with their existing work-product. In terms of office suites, that usually means the ability to read, write, and edit documents in a Microsoft file format as well as, if not better than MSO can read, write, and edit those documents. Different organizations define the compatibility line differently. Personally, I consider microsoft file formats to be never twice same output formats, and hence best discarded. jonathon - -- If Bing copied Google, there wouldn't be anything new worth requesting. If Bing did not copy Google, there wouldn't be anything relevant worth requesting. DaveJakeman 20110207 Groklaw -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJNsK6rAAoJEERA7YuLpVrVkxwIAKIGnYYnnsxDY0cHOVJQVQ8i Eiv75PNSjmzwdtdlO3z/kCxWmnXlmg4L6NmkrfjxD850w6tVYe5DhUPbz0agDqon ZfARH/sGnMEylMwoMRiNDOPJkqcUifcV282rLYcXgPVFj7CtaguWY7a4DxYLpqXA PG7/txWEfIEbLSmVC1UtO8TsO8j1oT1XchQnqJchXTq5vFS/fKzooVO0cH5mH0DR 9SDKb1ljyC/9//dWlQU8M5++2ttj3giEplYaLU5Y548IomgYs1ul1yMOYzyBg1tv RMQSt9vkfN/SCSs5rM3cekvlYHP//9+9nVeL2o3zpYwfUuz/AEBXKzllK9H1E3s= =hf4n -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice VS MS Office
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 21/04/2011 12:35, e-letter wrote: The point is, the business user receives a document in m$ word, is not prepared to pay for m$ office You are assuming that microsoft offers a product for the platform used by the business. That is no longer a safe assumption. community since higher profits may have been obtained by using OSS) Just what makes you think that either net profit, or gross profit is necessarily higher using FLOSS, than using non-FLOSS? jonathon - -- If Bing copied Google, there wouldn't be anything new worth requesting. If Bing did not copy Google, there wouldn't be anything relevant worth requesting. DaveJakeman 20110207 Groklaw. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJNsK/7AAoJEERA7YuLpVrVVokH/RgaApKpHU11MpPnxP5qJjQO Zv2dx45bsYI0a4+a7zklKCEUFUfPrW7NesoaTk0ZWuH/e+tSKK2Wr8FS24zxva7r h1iPyQTufhOlK8Ly4vT4vdQZqkIoUEhBBX2Ajnh6rRevPi58BpXKYrvAHxvIgyvo OY4XCWyFqi4UVNwDzubG7tRIDFOZOqI7TIwAmCvBdcoCDCnYX6unHpjI+MAP+4qi tizbGYtdPh22lBH9GCNJoRJPGFwvDeuf5C9jy/RsbL9JoPk1aWxgXeyGRdEXgBNj 52ST2kWC8baOk2uE9OFShmSeVFzlVR1Z/aLDSUjKWietRPA1YSKZUJBwnL1vP0A= =o5BT -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
