subject:"Re\: \[libreoffice\-users\] Re\: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg \?"

Hi :)
I think MS have been really clever.  Their .DocX and such have been pushed 
through as  ostensibly being an accepted ISO  standard even though each of 
their programs seems to mis-implement it in strange and different way.  

So, they can say the DocX is a standardised format and then that it's the 
user's fault for not using the right version of MS Office in order to read this 
so-called standarised format in the right way.  

Third party programs such as LibreOffice have to decide which of the DocX 
formats they follow.  Should they implement the spec as agreed with the ISO 
people, in which case none of the MS programs display it properly or should 
they pick 2007, 2010 or 365?  Whichever of the 4 choices are settled on people 
will then grumble that their documents produced in any of the others doesn't 
display properly AND because DocX is an ISO format then therefore it is the 
fault of LO for not following the 'standard' properly.  

So, people have to stick with MS Office in order to read and produce the 
standardised MS format.  More than that, they have to upgrade to whichever one 
all the people they deal with uses otherwise it wont look right.  All that is 
the user's fault because the standard is DocX and the format used in each 
program is called DocX and therefore it must be the same, right?!!?  (The big 
NO from all those that know gets ignored).  So who is claiming that it is the 
users fault when it clearly isn't?!  The users themselves blame themselves and 
make excuses as to why they haven't bought the 'right' version yet!  They 
honestly don't think it's a bit strange that a so-called 'standard' is not 
acting the way a standard should and that they need to keep upgrading.  

So, while file-compatibility is often cited as a reason to stick with MS Office 
that compatibility only happens if the people sharing the document are using 
the same version of MS Office.  Also a disclaimer during installing 2010 states 
that it needs to be on the same OS.  It says that 2010 on Xp will look 
different if viewed by 2010 on Win7 [on the same machine with the same printer]

The whole thing is crazy.  

Add in that MS made a big fuss about trying to work with other people by 
including OpenDocument Format but used the older format rather than the 1.2 
that everyone else uses and now says it shows that the ODF format is 
fundamentally broken so people should stick with DocX.  It's only MS Office 
that fails to display ODF properly.  Sometimes one product makes an honest 
mistake but that is seen as a bug and gets reported and hopefully fixed. It's 
not blamed on the user for not using the right product.  

Amazing that people keep falling for MS.  
Regards from
Tom :)  






 From: Carl Paulsen carlpaul...@comcast.net
To: users@global.libreoffice.org 
Sent: Tuesday, 20 November 2012, 1:51
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?
 

 Without trying to defend MS, it can only dominate markets that customers 
 allow it to dominate. Nobody is forced to purchase MS products. They do so 
 because, for whatever reason, they perceive that MS serves their needs. One 
 of those needs is file compatibility with others, which by its nature, 
 allows MS sales to feed on themselves. The more people buy MS products, the 
 more people need to buy MS products to communicate with all the others who 
 went before.

But, of course, the only reason file compatibility is an issue - the only 
reason MS can behave as it does - is that it is an effective monopoly.  Last 
time I checked monopolies are anti-competitive, and there are LAWS in the US 
to curb them.  So I agree, there is a role for gov't to step in.  Good luck 
waiting for that though.  Break the monopoly for a few years by being 
hyper-vigilant about code development and marketing and you might actually 
break the monopoly for good.

Furthermore, if enough people forced gov't to accept standardized document 
types (e.g. ODT or even PDFs!), the monopoly would weaken.

Carl

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

Hi :)
I tend to use Office either 
1.  as a generic term covering MS Office, LO, Gnome Office and all the rest 
(incl ones i don't know) or
2.  meaning LO (unless chatting with colleagues)

If i am chatting with colleagues and they use the term it's usually to say that 
something is broken or weird or doesn't work properly in MSO so i make them 
clarify which Office they are talking about and if they say the MS one then i 
grimace and shrug and maybe even vocalise the Well what do you expect?  That 
is one of the many typical problems with MSO.  You have to either put up with 
it (as everyone else does) or use LO.  Don't worry though because no-one else 
will notice that mangling of your document because they are so familiar with 
that sort of thing from MSO

Regards from
Tom :)







 From: James Knott james.kn...@rogers.com
To: LibreOffice users@global.libreoffice.org 
Sent: Tuesday, 20 November 2012, 11:15
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?
 
Don Myers wrote:
 I have never purchased a copy of Windows either. I only get it when it comes 
 on a computer. Microsoft charges computer companies less than what the 
 public pays, but the last time I heard anything it was something like $50 
 per computer that the computer companies pay Microsoft for Windows. So we 
 both do pay for it with  new computer.

And lets not forget the time bombed versions of Office that's included with 
many new computers.  People start using it, and then, after a while, find they 
can't work with their own documents unless they pay for Office.


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

Hi :)
Again that is something MS has been pretty clever about.  Their new format (the 
one that only works on the same machine, the same OS and the same version of 
MSO) has the same name as something they pushed through as an ISO standard and 
it has all the right words in it, such as Office and Open.  So even though 
their implementations are not open they can claim the standard is and when that 
standard is implemented and doesn't work they can claim it's the fault of the 
3rd party.  
Regards from
Tom :)  






 From: Carl Paulsen carlpaul...@comcast.net
To: users@global.libreoffice.org 
Sent: Tuesday, 20 November 2012, 1:50
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?
 
Here, here.  But what about gov'ts mandating simply that the format 
structure be open (without mandating a specific one be used)? That's not 
political IMHO.
Carl


On 11/19/12 3:15 PM, M Henri Day wrote:
 2012/11/19 VA cuyfa...@hotmail.com

 At the risk of getting political, the last thing I want is my government
 dictating to me what kind of file format to use on my documents.

 Virgil

 At the risk of getting political, the last thing I want is a multi-national
 corporation, responsible to no one save a few major shareholders and/or top
 executives, which, due to its domination of the market, can effectively
 render it manditory for me to use its proprietary file format

 Regulation of markets, so that they remain as free and accessible as
 possible, is one of the principle tasks of government

 Henri


-- 

Carl Paulsen

8 Hamilton Street

Dover, NH 03820

(603) 749-2310


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

Hi :)
Hmmm, i thought that machines without Windows cost more because of some weird 
marketing deal with OEMs
Regards from
Tom :) 






 From: Steve Edmonds steve.edmo...@ptglobal.com
To: VA cuyfa...@hotmail.com 
Cc: LibreOffice users@global.libreoffice.org 
Sent: Tuesday, 20 November 2012, 1:40
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?
 
I get a discount for purchasing without windows.
I say I want that machine, no windows, take it off the price, and save myself 
some dollars.
Steve

On 2012-11-20 13:57, VA wrote:
 I'm not defending Microsoft; I don't particularly like them. I'm just saying 
 that if I don't want to buy MS, I don't have to, and neither does anyone 
 else.
 
 Of course, you can buy a Mac and not have Windows. However, I never count 
 Windows as a purchase because it comes installed on the computer. I don't 
 pay any extra for it, and I have NEVER purchased any Windows upgrade. After 
 buying a Windows computer, if I wanted, I could completely blow off the 
 Windows, reformat the hard drive and install Linux. I'm sure many people 
 have done just that. I have a dual-boot Windows/Linux system on my laptop.
 
 While my employer has purchased MS Office, I have never done so for my home 
 computers.
 
 In other words, no matter what tactics MS uses, legal or not, as the 
 customer, I always control where I spend my money. MS cannot dominate my 
 computer without my permission or the software market without our collective 
 permission.
 
 Virgil
 
 -Original Message- From: James Knott
 Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 7:04 PM
 To: LibreOffice
 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?
 
 VA wrote:
 Nobody is forced to purchase MS products.
 
 Try and buy a computer without Windows.  While there are some available,
 they're rare.  Also, read up on the MS anti trust cases to see how they
 forced market share with illegal and near illegal methods, including
 extortion.
 
 


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-20 Thread Mirosław Zalewski

On 19/11/2012 at 14:34, Carl Paulsen carlpaul...@comcast.net wrote:

 So is there a simple list of SPECIFIC ways users can contribute 
 (templates is a good example) that is easily found?

Not sure if this is specific enough, but take a look here:
http://standardsandfreedom.net/index.php/2012/11/16/sgauti-digest/

There are also some articles on Sophie's blog that are not listed there. You 
can find them here:
http://sophiegautier.com/blog/index.php/
-- 
Best regards
Mirosław Zalewski

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

Hi :)
I think it's better if they make suggests rather than being dictatorial 
otherwise people make a determined stand to go another way.  Prohibition didn't 
work in the US and other countries have tried to suppress this or that which 
has continued anyway despite a government outlawing it or even grown in 
popularity once it becomes naughty.  

Regards from
Tom :)  






 From: Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com
To: users@global.libreoffice.org 
Sent: Monday, 19 November 2012, 21:09
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?
 
On 11/19/2012 02:24 PM, VA wrote:
 At the risk of getting political, the last thing I want is my government 
 dictating to me what kind of file format to use on my documents.
 
 Virgil
 
The issue is not truly political if the agreed standards are used by all - it 
levels the playing field and tends to lower costs for consumers.
 -Original Message- From: Jay Lozier
 Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 2:16 PM
 To: users@global.libreoffice.org
 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?
 
 On 11/19/2012 01:13 PM, Steven Bradley wrote:
 I remember this discussion a few years back, when MSO was the defacto
 standard, and a moving target. One of the most important things for any
 agency, company government, or individual is backward compatibility. I have
 many documents that are difficult for me to retrieve, and I wrote them less
 than 20 years ago, using DOS programs.  I can only imagine what things will
 be like in 30 years for those old files. I believe it's of paramount
 importance, even in this age of rapid development and change, to realize
 that electronic storage of documents is the wave of the future. They must
 all be stored in a simple-to-access format that any program can read, not
 just the latest flavor of the big boy.  I am actually fairly concerned
 about this, since the concept of proprietary file types has never been
 addressed by any government agency (it would be easy, for example, for the
 USGovt to mandate that all files be maintained with the formatting in a
 separate file.  If a large govt (China, the US, EU) mandated that simple
 change, then all files would cease to be proprietary, except for formatting
 changes.  One might lose the formats, but the file itself would have a
 permanence that most files do not now have.  I might also suggest that the
 file formatting be subject to some sort of regulation (yes, they CAN do
 that!), which makes all formatting retrievable, no matter how long it's
 been since the file was created.
 Otherwise, we'll all lose a huge amount of information.
 That's my opinion.  YMMV
 Steve Bradley
 Add to file formats, ability to read the old media (floppies, zip-disks,
 etc). Back to your point, it will probably take government action to
 force the use of ODF or similar standard formats over any proprietary
 formats. I am waiting for the MSO version that drops support for doc and
 related formats.
 
 snip
 
 


-- Jay Lozier
jsloz...@gmail.com


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

Hi :)
If it's for myself i do very little to the Windows side except perhaps install 
Firefox and LibreOffice.  I just don't use Windows if i can possibly avoid it.  
However if it's for a colleague or friend that's when i do loads to make it 
more usable.  
Regards from
Tom :)  






 From: Don C. Myers donmy...@myersfarm.com
To: users@global.libreoffice.org 
Sent: Tuesday, 20 November 2012, 17:02
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?
 

On 11/20/2012 06:15 AM, James Knott wrote:
 Don Myers wrote:
 I have never purchased a copy of Windows either. I only get it when it 
 comes on a computer. Microsoft charges computer companies less than what 
 the public pays, but the last time I heard anything it was something like 
 $50 per computer that the computer companies pay Microsoft for Windows. So 
 we both do pay for it with  new computer.
 
 And lets not forget the time bombed versions of Office that's included with 
 many new computers.  People start using it, and then, after a while, find 
 they can't work with their own documents unless they pay for Office.
 
 
The first thing I do when I get a computer is to install Ubuntu as a dual boot 
system. The next thing I do in Windows is to delete the trial version of MS 
Office.


-- 

**


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

Hi :)
Errr, but i always avoid removing a Windows even if i think i'll never use it 
or need it.  Apparently with Win8 it's going to be even more important to keep 
the OS that is installed by the shop if you want to be able to return the 
machine for them to fix hardware issues.  At least if it's on the machine you 
can set Grub to hide itself and boot straight into Windows.  

Regards from
Tom :)  






 From: Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Don C. Myers donmy...@myersfarm.com; users@global.libreoffice.org 
users@global.libreoffice.org 
Sent: Tuesday, 20 November 2012, 18:19
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?
 

Hi :)
If it's for myself i do very little to the Windows side except perhaps install 
Firefox and LibreOffice.  I just don't use Windows if i can possibly avoid 
it.  However if it's for a colleague or friend that's when i do loads to make 
it more usable.  
Regards from
Tom :)  







 From: Don C. Myers donmy...@myersfarm.com
To: users@global.libreoffice.org 
Sent: Tuesday, 20 November 2012, 17:02
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?
 

On 11/20/2012 06:15 AM, James Knott wrote:
 Don Myers wrote:
 I have never purchased a copy of Windows either. I only get it when it 
 comes on a computer. Microsoft charges computer companies less than what 
 the public pays, but the last time I heard anything it was something like 
 $50 per computer that the computer companies pay Microsoft for Windows. So 
 we both do pay for it with  new computer.
 
 And lets not forget the time bombed versions of Office that's included with 
 many new computers.  People start using it, and then, after a while, find 
 they can't work with their own documents unless they pay for Office.
 
 
The first
 thing I do when I get a computer is to install Ubuntu as a dual boot system. 
The next thing I do in Windows is to delete the trial version of MS Office.


-- 

**


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-20 Thread Jay Lozier


On 11/20/2012 12:53 PM, Tom Davies wrote:

Hi :)
I think it's better if they make suggests rather than being 
dictatorial otherwise people make a determined stand to go another 
way.  Prohibition didn't work in the US and other countries have tried 
to suppress this or that which has continued anyway despite a 
government outlawing it or even grown in popularity once it becomes 
naughty.

Regards from
Tom :)

I think the best method is use of open, standard formats for all 
documents issued by the governments and the requirement that vendors can 
only submit documents using the same open, standard formats. The 
proprietary formats are a legacy of the 80's.


The real problem with proprietary formats is that the owners' eventually 
stop supporting them, leave the market, or go out of business. Then 
users have orphaned documents that are very difficult or impossible to 
read. Compare books from say 1850 to computer formats from 1990. The 
book is still functional today and accessible to anyone while many 
computer formats from 1990 are inaccessible. Anyone who used computers 
since the mid 80's has run into the data format problem - old unreadable 
files compounded with storage on obsolete media (5.25 inch floppies, 
etc.).  I picked 1850 to highlight that data formats need long term 
storage and retrieval into the future not just tomorrow or next week.



*From:* Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com
*To:* users@global.libreoffice.org
*Sent:* Monday, 19 November 2012, 21:09
*Subject:* Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in
Freiburg ?

On 11/19/2012 02:24 PM, VA wrote:
 At the risk of getting political, the last thing I want is my
government dictating to me what kind of file format to use on my
documents.

 Virgil

The issue is not truly political if the agreed standards are used
by all - it levels the playing field and tends to lower costs for
consumers.
 -Original Message- From: Jay Lozier
 Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 2:16 PM
 To: users@global.libreoffice.org
mailto:users@global.libreoffice.org
 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in
Freiburg ?

 On 11/19/2012 01:13 PM, Steven Bradley wrote:
 I remember this discussion a few years back, when MSO was the
defacto
 standard, and a moving target. One of the most important things
for any
 agency, company government, or individual is backward
compatibility. I have
 many documents that are difficult for me to retrieve, and I
wrote them less
 than 20 years ago, using DOS programs.  I can only imagine what
things will
 be like in 30 years for those old files. I believe it's of
paramount
 importance, even in this age of rapid development and change,
to realize
 that electronic storage of documents is the wave of the future.
They must
 all be stored in a simple-to-access format that any program can
read, not
 just the latest flavor of the big boy.  I am actually fairly
concerned
 about this, since the concept of proprietary file types has
never been
 addressed by any government agency (it would be easy, for
example, for the
 USGovt to mandate that all files be maintained with the
formatting in a
 separate file.  If a large govt (China, the US, EU) mandated
that simple
 change, then all files would cease to be proprietary, except
for formatting
 changes.  One might lose the formats, but the file itself would
have a
 permanence that most files do not now have.  I might also
suggest that the
 file formatting be subject to some sort of regulation (yes,
they CAN do
 that!), which makes all formatting retrievable, no matter how
long it's
 been since the file was created.
 Otherwise, we'll all lose a huge amount of information.
 That's my opinion.  YMMV
 Steve Bradley
 Add to file formats, ability to read the old media (floppies,
zip-disks,
 etc). Back to your point, it will probably take government action to
 force the use of ODF or similar standard formats over any
proprietary
 formats. I am waiting for the MSO version that drops support for
doc and
 related formats.

 snip




-- Jay Lozier
jsloz...@gmail.com mailto:jsloz...@gmail.com


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jsloz...@gmail.com


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-20 Thread Walther Koehler

Hi,

in my office as a medical pracitioner, I probably had the same situation but 
sized down as Freiburg is having while switching to OO/LO.

Yes, I had a lot of work invested into forms, autotexts, dictionary and many 
makros (Fachanwendungen) to be used with Word2000 and Access2.0+Works.

Yes, it took some time to transcribe the macros into LO Basic slang. But when 
I exchanged Word  for OO/LO on my assistants desk, I doubt they even noticed 
it (beside some bugs in the makros in the first few weeks). However, I am 
admin and CEO and hotline in a single person. Today, I just quickly added a 
basic sub callable by a keystroke to ease their life.

And no, we have no problems with formats. Old .doc files are easily readable 
(except embedded makros), medical reports are sent by Fax. I dont know what 
will happen, when we will be forced to put digital reports into the cloud.

And no, I never want to switch back to MSO

W.K.

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-20 Thread Steve Edmonds

In reality, probably all I am getting is an added discount for 
requesting a PC without windows and no license. The PC in all 
probability is made no different. Gennerally I can get close to the 
retail value of win off the price.

Steve
On 2012-11-21 07:22, Tom Davies wrote:

Hi :)
Errr, but i always avoid removing a Windows even if i think i'll never use it 
or need it.  Apparently with Win8 it's going to be even more important to keep 
the OS that is installed by the shop if you want to be able to return the 
machine for them to fix hardware issues.  At least if it's on the machine you 
can set Grub to hide itself and boot straight into Windows.

Regards from
Tom :)







From: Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Don C. Myers donmy...@myersfarm.com; users@global.libreoffice.org 
users@global.libreoffice.org
Sent: Tuesday, 20 November 2012, 18:19
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?


Hi :)
If it's for myself i do very little to the Windows side except perhaps install 
Firefox and LibreOffice.  I just don't use Windows if i can possibly avoid it.  
However if it's for a colleague or friend that's when i do loads to make it 
more usable.
Regards from
Tom :)








From: Don C. Myers donmy...@myersfarm.com
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Sent: Tuesday, 20 November 2012, 17:02
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?


On 11/20/2012 06:15 AM, James Knott wrote:

Don Myers wrote:

I have never purchased a copy of Windows either. I only get it when it comes on 
a computer. Microsoft charges computer companies less than what the public 
pays, but the last time I heard anything it was something like $50 per computer 
that the computer companies pay Microsoft for Windows. So we both do pay for it 
with  new computer.

And lets not forget the time bombed versions of Office that's included with 
many new computers.  People start using it, and then, after a while, find they 
can't work with their own documents unless they pay for Office.



The first

  thing I do when I get a computer is to install Ubuntu as a dual boot system. 
The next thing I do in Windows is to delete the trial version of MS Office.


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-20 Thread Jay Lozier


On 11/20/2012 01:33 PM, Walther Koehler wrote:

Hi,

in my office as a medical pracitioner, I probably had the same situation but
sized down as Freiburg is having while switching to OO/LO.

Yes, I had a lot of work invested into forms, autotexts, dictionary and many
makros (Fachanwendungen) to be used with Word2000 and Access2.0+Works.

Yes, it took some time to transcribe the macros into LO Basic slang. But when
I exchanged Word  for OO/LO on my assistants desk, I doubt they even noticed
it (beside some bugs in the makros in the first few weeks). However, I am
admin and CEO and hotline in a single person. Today, I just quickly added a
basic sub callable by a keystroke to ease their life.

And no, we have no problems with formats. Old .doc files are easily readable
(except embedded makros), medical reports are sent by Fax. I dont know what
will happen, when we will be forced to put digital reports into the cloud.

And no, I never want to switch back to MSO

W.K.

I think you mentioned the real problems with transitioning either 
direction - macros, forms, templates, etc that need to be converted for 
the end users.


--
Jay Lozier
jsloz...@gmail.com


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-20 Thread rost52



On 2012-11-21 01:04, Jay Lozier wrote:
Truthfully the market has matured enough for office suites that improvements are incremental not 
fundamentalThe market growth for MS is much slower because for many there is 
no major reason to upgrade for many unless forced to by lack of support of either the file format 
or the software itself.


--
Jay Lozier
I think Jay expressed it very well. New features do hardly increase productivity. Quite in contrary, 
the new ribbon cause a tremendous slow down in productivity for several months and requires 
corporations to spend a lot of time and money to train people. Additionally MS will change to 
subscription of SW.
Both aspects together is a chance for LibO and AOO. I am looking forward to the announcement that 
both teams tie up, slow down the development of new features and substantially reduce the bugs.



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012/11/19 rost52 bugquestcon...@online.de

 Like Carl. I unfortunately cannot contribute to development work.

 I would just like to come back to productivity and my own experience:
 LibO has features which are as good or better than MSO in respect to
 productivity. What reduces my productivity are bugs (first it takes time to
 find out is a bug or did I make a mistake; second bug reporting) and
 corrections of MSO files I receive because they open only open with errors.

 How can LibO make market shares against MSO?

 For my feeling shares can be taken with a high productivity of LibO.

 This can be achieved with many bugs less and full compatibility. MSO
 doesn' come up with a new format every week, thus our devs have a very good
 chance to adjust LibO to full compatibility.

 I am convinced that
 - a big part of the reasons why the City of Freiburg considers to dump OO
 are the above mentioned productivity issues (bugs and non-compatibility)
 - above sketched productivity increase would enable LibO to gain
 substantial market shares from MSO,
 - and that the required productivity increase can be released within not
 too much time.





 On 2012-11-19 12:04, Carl Paulsen wrote:

 In practical use, I would NOT say LO (or OOo) has a high file
 compatibility with MS Office.  Virtually every file I receive from MS
 Office users has some kind of problem (bullet lists almost NEVER convert
 correctly, at least from MSO to LO).  I'm only an occasional Office suite
 user so I put up with it (plus I'm on a Mac), but I've never been able to
 convince others to use LO for this reason alone. And I mostly work with
 non-profits who, for several reasons, should be avid LO users.

 I also realize MSO, with it's market share, stands only to gain from
 keeping it's formatting a moving target.  With that in mind, I just can't
 imagine how a project like LO could hope to keep up and make inroads.

 Wish I could help with making it work better, but I know nothing about
 contributing to development.

 Carl




 On 11/18/12 7:48 PM, rost52 wrote:

 I only can use Virgil's word I hate to say it but Virgil is right.
 File compatibility is very important in our daily business world where we
 need to exchange editable files within our company and also with external
 partners.

 Whenever I need to exchange files with MSO formats, I additionally
 attach a pdf-file or ask for pdf-file as reference. This is a reduction of
 productivity - I am willing to take I, but how many others?

 Although I am aware that it is not an easy task and requires dev work,
  LibO must achieve more than a high compatibility with MSO formats. I keep
 fingers crossed.


 On 2012-11-19 07:37, VA wrote:

 I hate to say it, but I think in business MS compatibility is THE
 paramount concern. When I was working for a large business, I used LibO
 only for documents I knew I didn't have to share with others. For anything
 that had to be used by others, I used MS Office.

 I realize that LibO is highly compatible with MS Office, but highly
 often isn't enough. In my experience there were enough incompatibilities
 that it just wasn't worth the hassle of trying to clean up documents sent
 back and forth between the two office suites.

 File format compatibility is far more important than similar user
 interfaces or command structures. I would say file compatibility is the
 primary reason companies keep buying MS Office.

 Virgil


I was greatly pleased to see the Document Foundation's open letter to the
City of Freiburg (thanks, Pedro, for the link !) and also that it was
written in German - Freiburg is, after all, a German town and the
foundation is a organisation incorporated in Germany ! Readers whose German
isn't up to the task of reading it can make use of tools like Google
Translate to get the gist

I was even more pleased to see that a discussion has started in this forum
which deals with concrete problems in using LibreOffice in an environment
dominated by MS Office. I can say that in my (limited) experience,
conversion of documents between various versions of MS Word and Writer
usually goes without problems, but that spreadsheets and presentations
often present difficulties.

Hochachtungsvoll

Henri

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-19 Thread Tanstaafl


On 2012-11-19 1:40 AM, rost52 bugquestcon...@online.de wrote:

This can be achieved with many bugs less and full compatibility. MSO
doesn' come up with a new format every week, thus our devs have a very
good chance to adjust LibO to full compatibility.


Sounds easy, doesn't it? Until you realize that the documentation of the 
file formats is secret.


Do you have any idea how hard it is to reverse engineer a binary file
format spec (even the new XML formats contain binary code).

On 2012-11-19 12:04, Carl Paulsen wrote:

In practical use, I would NOT say LO (or OOo) has a high file
compatibility with MS Office. Virtually every file I receive from MS
Office users has some kind of problem (bullet lists almost NEVER
convert correctly, at least from MSO to LO).


In our experience (smallish company with base of 50+ users), file format
compatability was actually very good *until* Microsoft came out with
their new 'improved' XML formats in office 2007. It got *much* worse
with the newer version in Office 2010 - so much worse that many files
were totally crashing Libreoffice.

It was this that caused the boss to mandate that new PC purchases come
with an Office License, and we buy 5 additional ones until everyone gets
Microsoft Office.

We will continue to install LibreOffice side by side, but the days of
only our Accountants having Office are over, I'm sad to say.


On 11/18/12 7:48 PM, rost52 wrote:

Whenever I need to exchange files with MSO formats, I additionally
attach a pdf-file or ask for pdf-file as reference. This is a
reduction of productivity - I am willing to take I, but how many
others?

Although I am aware that it is not an easy task and requires dev
work, 　LibO　must achieve more than a high compatibility with MSO
formats. I keep fingers crossed.


I don't see this happening any more. Microsoft is on a roll now, coming
out with new versions *far* more often than they used to (which means 
they can 'improve' the file formats much more often). My understanding 
is they are actually pushing ultimately to a subscriptions based model - 
but this could end up being good news, because imnsho, dong this could 
actually back fire on them though (fingers crossed)... when I discussed 
this with my boss, he commented that the day Microsoft *forces* us to 
have to 'renew' our licenses annually is the day he will never upgrade 
again (just stay on whatever version we currently have until the world 
ends).


Charles

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012/11/19 Tanstaafl tansta...@libertytrek.org

 On 2012-11-19 1:40 AM, rost52 bugquestcon...@online.de wrote:

 This can be achieved with many bugs less and full compatibility. MSO
 doesn' come up with a new format every week, thus our devs have a very
 good chance to adjust LibO to full compatibility.


 Sounds easy, doesn't it? Until you realize that the documentation of the
 file formats is secret.

 Do you have any idea how hard it is to reverse engineer a binary file
 format spec (even the new XML formats contain binary code).


 On 2012-11-19 12:04, Carl Paulsen wrote:

 In practical use, I would NOT say LO (or OOo) has a high file
 compatibility with MS Office. Virtually every file I receive from MS
 Office users has some kind of problem (bullet lists almost NEVER
 convert correctly, at least from MSO to LO).


 In our experience (smallish company with base of 50+ users), file format
 compatability was actually very good *until* Microsoft came out with
 their new 'improved' XML formats in office 2007. It got *much* worse
 with the newer version in Office 2010 - so much worse that many files
 were totally crashing Libreoffice.

 It was this that caused the boss to mandate that new PC purchases come
 with an Office License, and we buy 5 additional ones until everyone gets
 Microsoft Office.

 We will continue to install LibreOffice side by side, but the days of
 only our Accountants having Office are over, I'm sad to say.



 On 11/18/12 7:48 PM, rost52 wrote:

 Whenever I need to exchange files with MSO formats, I additionally
 attach a pdf-file or ask for pdf-file as reference. This is a
 reduction of productivity - I am willing to take I, but how many
 others?

 Although I am aware that it is not an easy task and requires dev
 work,  LibO must achieve more than a high compatibility with MSO
 formats. I keep fingers crossed.


 I don't see this happening any more. Microsoft is on a roll now, coming
 out with new versions *far* more often than they used to (which means they
 can 'improve' the file formats much more often). My understanding is they
 are actually pushing ultimately to a subscriptions based model - but this
 could end up being good news, because imnsho, dong this could actually back
 fire on them though (fingers crossed)... when I discussed this with my
 boss, he commented that the day Microsoft *forces* us to have to 'renew'
 our licenses annually is the day he will never upgrade again (just stay on
 whatever version we currently have until the world ends).

 Charles


An excellent exposition of the methods used by Microsoft to «protect» its
«intellectual property» - more accurately described as using its
quasi-monopoly to exclude others from the market

Henri

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-19 Thread Tanstaafl


On 2012-11-19 6:54 AM, M Henri Day mhenri...@gmail.com wrote:

2012/11/19 Tanstaafltansta...@libertytrek.org

snip

I don't see this happening any more. Microsoft is on a roll now, coming
out with new versions *far* more often than they used to (which means they
can 'improve' the file formats much more often). My understanding is they
are actually pushing ultimately to a subscriptions based model - but this
could end up being good news, because imnsho, dong this could actually back
fire on them though (fingers crossed)... when I discussed this with my
boss, he commented that the day Microsoft *forces* us to have to 'renew'
our licenses annually is the day he will never upgrade again (just stay on
whatever version we currently have until the world ends).



An excellent exposition of the methods used by Microsoft to «protect» its
«intellectual property» - more accurately described as using its
quasi-monopoly to exclude others from the market


There is one more hing that could turn this around - if the EU (or some 
other major governmental entity) were to engage in and win an antitrust 
lawsuit against Microsoft and force them to *fully* document their file 
formats, as happened with their Windows Server SMB protocols (which I 
understand has benefited the Samba project immensely).


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012/11/19 Tanstaafl tansta...@libertytrek.org

 On 2012-11-19 6:54 AM, M Henri Day mhenri...@gmail.com wrote:

 2012/11/19 Tanstaafltansta...@libertytrek.org


snip


  An excellent exposition of the methods used by Microsoft to «protect» its
 «intellectual property» - more accurately described as using its
 quasi-monopoly to exclude others from the market


 There is one more hing that could turn this around - if the EU (or some
 other major governmental entity) were to engage in and win an antitrust
 lawsuit against Microsoft and force them to *fully* document their file
 formats, as happened with their Windows Server SMB protocols (which I
 understand has benefited the Samba project immensely).


A consumation devoutly to be wished

Henri

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

The truly maddening part is that, if more people used LibO, then the .ODT 
format would become standard and MS would be relegated to irrelevance.


So, Office wins because corporations buy it, making its file format 
standard, which forces the rest of us to conform.


It's absolutely crazy.

Virgil

-Original Message- 
From: Tanstaafl

Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 7:32 AM
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

On 2012-11-19 6:54 AM, M Henri Day mhenri...@gmail.com wrote:

2012/11/19 Tanstaafltansta...@libertytrek.org

snip

I don't see this happening any more. Microsoft is on a roll now, coming
out with new versions *far* more often than they used to (which means 
they

can 'improve' the file formats much more often). My understanding is they
are actually pushing ultimately to a subscriptions based model - but this
could end up being good news, because imnsho, dong this could actually 
back

fire on them though (fingers crossed)... when I discussed this with my
boss, he commented that the day Microsoft *forces* us to have to 'renew'
our licenses annually is the day he will never upgrade again (just stay 
on

whatever version we currently have until the world ends).



An excellent exposition of the methods used by Microsoft to «protect» its
«intellectual property» - more accurately described as using its
quasi-monopoly to exclude others from the market


There is one more hing that could turn this around - if the EU (or some
other major governmental entity) were to engage in and win an antitrust
lawsuit against Microsoft and force them to *fully* document their file
formats, as happened with their Windows Server SMB protocols (which I
understand has benefited the Samba project immensely).

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deleted 



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-19 Thread Regina Henschel


Hi,
Carl Paulsen schrieb:

In practical use, I would NOT say LO (or OOo) has a high file
compatibility with MS Office.  Virtually every file I receive from MS
Office users has some kind of problem (bullet lists almost NEVER convert
correctly, at least from MSO to LO).  I'm only an occasional Office
suite user so I put up with it (plus I'm on a Mac), but I've never been
able to convince others to use LO for this reason alone. And I mostly
work with non-profits who, for several reasons, should be avid LO users.

I also realize MSO, with it's market share, stands only to gain from
keeping it's formatting a moving target.  With that in mind, I just
can't imagine how a project like LO could hope to keep up and make inroads.

Wish I could help with making it work better, but I know nothing about
contributing to development.


You do not need to be a developer to help. One idea for interoperability 
I heard on LibOCon, is to make templates, that can be converted nicely. 
So if you have access to MSO, then examine, what kind of things are 
dangerous for converting and what kind of things convert without 
problems. Make a Wiki site with your observations and create good 
templates based on this rationale.


Kind regards
Regina


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

Thanks, Regina.  I know there are other ways to contribute, but I don't 
necessarily know what they are.  Templates is one way, but the real 
issue I see is going from MSO to LO/OO.  We can't control the other end.


So is there a simple list of SPECIFIC ways users can contribute 
(templates is a good example) that is easily found?  I've seen some 
general lists of how to contribute, but I haven't searched much for more 
specifics.  In any case it should probably be front and center on the 
website (again, not the develop, donate $$, etc. generic list, but more 
specifics).


Carl


On 11/19/12 8:09 AM, Regina Henschel wrote:

Hi,
Carl Paulsen schrieb:

In practical use, I would NOT say LO (or OOo) has a high file
compatibility with MS Office.  Virtually every file I receive from MS
Office users has some kind of problem (bullet lists almost NEVER convert
correctly, at least from MSO to LO).  I'm only an occasional Office
suite user so I put up with it (plus I'm on a Mac), but I've never been
able to convince others to use LO for this reason alone. And I mostly
work with non-profits who, for several reasons, should be avid LO users.

I also realize MSO, with it's market share, stands only to gain from
keeping it's formatting a moving target.  With that in mind, I just
can't imagine how a project like LO could hope to keep up and make 
inroads.


Wish I could help with making it work better, but I know nothing about
contributing to development.


You do not need to be a developer to help. One idea for 
interoperability I heard on LibOCon, is to make templates, that can be 
converted nicely. So if you have access to MSO, then examine, what 
kind of things are dangerous for converting and what kind of things 
convert without problems. Make a Wiki site with your observations and 
create good templates based on this rationale.


Kind regards
Regina




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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-19 Thread webmaster-Kracked_P_P



I contribute to LibreOffice by working on the North American Community 
DVD Project in creating English distribution DVDs.  Also I have created 
the largest [so I have been told] spell checking dictionaries for 
American English, British English, and Canadian English.  Also, I try to 
help people out on some of the lists.


There is a project that is getting started, by some of the users, to 
create a 4 page cheat sheet to help new users learn and use 
LibreOffice.  That is in the initial idea stage and needs help to get 
it going.


So there are options out there than could use some people who do not 
have any programming skills, or marketing skills.  If you have the 
ability to explain how things are done in LibreOffice and get that down 
on paper, you are needed.  I know that the documentation people are 
looking for people to do various things.  Heck, if you can go to the 
NA-DVD project and help make it better, I would be most grateful.


Tim L.
webmas...@libreoffice-na.us
http://libreoffice-na.us/English-3.6-installs/install.html


On 11/19/2012 08:34 AM, Carl Paulsen wrote:
Thanks, Regina.  I know there are other ways to contribute, but I 
don't necessarily know what they are.  Templates is one way, but the 
real issue I see is going from MSO to LO/OO.  We can't control the 
other end.


So is there a simple list of SPECIFIC ways users can contribute 
(templates is a good example) that is easily found?  I've seen some 
general lists of how to contribute, but I haven't searched much for 
more specifics.  In any case it should probably be front and center on 
the website (again, not the develop, donate $$, etc. generic list, but 
more specifics).


Carl


On 11/19/12 8:09 AM, Regina Henschel wrote:

Hi,
Carl Paulsen schrieb:

In practical use, I would NOT say LO (or OOo) has a high file
compatibility with MS Office.  Virtually every file I receive from MS
Office users has some kind of problem (bullet lists almost NEVER 
convert

correctly, at least from MSO to LO).  I'm only an occasional Office
suite user so I put up with it (plus I'm on a Mac), but I've never been
able to convince others to use LO for this reason alone. And I mostly
work with non-profits who, for several reasons, should be avid LO 
users.


I also realize MSO, with it's market share, stands only to gain from
keeping it's formatting a moving target.  With that in mind, I just
can't imagine how a project like LO could hope to keep up and make 
inroads.


Wish I could help with making it work better, but I know nothing about
contributing to development.


You do not need to be a developer to help. One idea for 
interoperability I heard on LibOCon, is to make templates, that can 
be converted nicely. So if you have access to MSO, then examine, what 
kind of things are dangerous for converting and what kind of things 
convert without problems. Make a Wiki site with your observations and 
create good templates based on this rationale.


Kind regards
Regina







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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?


On 11/19/2012 07:49 AM, VA wrote:
The truly maddening part is that, if more people used LibO, then the 
.ODT format would become standard and MS would be relegated to 
irrelevance.


So, Office wins because corporations buy it, making its file format 
standard, which forces the rest of us to conform.


It's absolutely crazy.

Virgil
ODF formats are the international standard so technically MS is not 
being standards compliant. This may be very useful if someone where to 
sue MS for monopolistic practices.


-Original Message- From: Tanstaafl
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 7:32 AM
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in 
Freiburg ?


On 2012-11-19 6:54 AM, M Henri Day mhenri...@gmail.com wrote:

2012/11/19 Tanstaafltansta...@libertytrek.org

snip

I don't see this happening any more. Microsoft is on a roll now, coming
out with new versions *far* more often than they used to (which 
means they
can 'improve' the file formats much more often). My understanding is 
they
are actually pushing ultimately to a subscriptions based model - but 
this
could end up being good news, because imnsho, dong this could 
actually back

fire on them though (fingers crossed)... when I discussed this with my
boss, he commented that the day Microsoft *forces* us to have to 
'renew'
our licenses annually is the day he will never upgrade again (just 
stay on

whatever version we currently have until the world ends).


Subscription based models are probably better for the vendor not the 
user over the life of the product. I suspect the fees will be charged 
monthly instead of annually to lower the sticker shock and even out cash 
flow.


Implicit in this model is that users will being using the Cloud to 
access the programs rather than having it installed on their machines. 
This raises another set of issues about the Cloud versus local 
installation.
An excellent exposition of the methods used by Microsoft to «protect» 
its

«intellectual property» - more accurately described as using its
quasi-monopoly to exclude others from the market


There is one more hing that could turn this around - if the EU (or some
other major governmental entity) were to engage in and win an antitrust
lawsuit against Microsoft and force them to *fully* document their file
formats, as happened with their Windows Server SMB protocols (which I
understand has benefited the Samba project immensely).




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jsloz...@gmail.com


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?


Jay wrote:

ODF formats are the international standard so technically MS is not
being standards compliant. This may be very useful if someone where to
sue MS for monopolistic practices.

I think there's a difference between standards as declared by computer 
developers and societies and standards determined by the marketplace. In 
the business marketplace, DOC and DOCX are the standard as they are what the 
vast number of business users use.


And, in the market place, standards can change. Twenty years ago, the 
standard for word processors was WordPerfect (WPD). Over time that changed 
to Word, but even then, in the legal profession, WordPerfect held on a 
little longer. Now, WordPerfect is a footnote.


MS may not be standards compliant but as long as they are the biggest game 
in town, what they do IS the standard.


Virgil 



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-19 Thread Dr. R. O Stapf

What a discussion has been started. Great!

As for doing revers engineering on binary files, I know how difficult it is. However, it is not
impossible. Should the great devs of AOO and LibO be enabled to join forces, there is a tremendous
know-how and manpower available. I just hope that people in both organizations start thinking about
joining forces and act ASAP.

EU and the law suit is definitely something which can help us.

This reminds me to discussions on highest management level in a multinational company of some 8000 -
1 employees world wide. Management was not very happy with the way MS used their power.

This means that also larger corporations could switch to a highly bug free LibO. As for new
features of MSO and an productivity increase in large corporation it is actually close to zero. The
introduction of ribbons caused a huge productivity loss in large corporations and cost a lot of
money for ribbon training. Such a switch could also be accelerated by MS new policy to offer their
products on subscription base. Huge regular bills will be eye-catchers...

I keep fingers crossed and will contribute when I can do so.

On 2012-11-19 22:46, webmaster-Kracked_P_P wrote:

I contribute to LibreOffice by working on the North American Community DVD Project in creating
English distribution DVDs. Also I have created the largest [so I have been told] spell checking
dictionaries for American English, British English, and Canadian English. Also, I try to help
people out on some of the lists.

There is a project that is getting started, by some of the users, to create a 4 page cheat sheet
to help new users learn and use LibreOffice. That is in the initial idea stage and needs help
to get it going.

So there are options out there than could use some people who do not have any programming skills,
or marketing skills. If you have the ability to explain how things are done in LibreOffice and
get that down on paper, you are needed. I know that the documentation people are looking for
people to do various things. Heck, if you can go to the NA-DVD project and help make it better, I
would be most grateful.

Tim L.
webmas...@libreoffice-na.us
http://libreoffice-na.us/English-3.6-installs/install.html

On 11/19/2012 08:34 AM, Carl Paulsen wrote:
Thanks, Regina. I know there are other ways to contribute, but I don't necessarily know what
they are. Templates is one way, but the real issue I see is going from MSO to LO/OO. We can't
control the other end.

So is there a simple list of SPECIFIC ways users can contribute (templates is a good example)
that is easily found? I've seen some general lists of how to contribute, but I haven't searched
much for more specifics. In any case it should probably be front and center on the website
(again, not the develop, donate $$, etc. generic list, but more specifics).

Carl

On 11/19/12 8:09 AM, Regina Henschel wrote:

Hi,
Carl Paulsen schrieb:

In practical use, I would NOT say LO (or OOo) has a high file
compatibility with MS Office. Virtually every file I receive from MS
Office users has some kind of problem (bullet lists almost NEVER convert
correctly, at least from MSO to LO). I'm only an occasional Office
suite user so I put up with it (plus I'm on a Mac), but I've never been
able to convince others to use LO for this reason alone. And I mostly
work with non-profits who, for several reasons, should be avid LO users.

I also realize MSO, with it's market share, stands only to gain from
keeping it's formatting a moving target. With that in mind, I just
can't imagine how a project like LO could hope to keep up and make inroads.

Wish I could help with making it work better, but I know nothing about
contributing to development.

You do not need to be a developer to help. One idea for interoperability I heard on LibOCon, is
to make templates, that can be converted nicely. So if you have access to MSO, then examine,
what kind of things are dangerous for converting and what kind of things convert without
problems. Make a Wiki site with your observations and create good templates based on this
rationale.

Kind regards
Regina

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-19 Thread Joel Madero

I was one of the one who sent a direct email to you (should have kept it on
list, my apologies) about contributing. QA is actively trying to grow and
requires very little (if any) programming skills. If you'd like to help out
with QA (triaging mostly right now), let us know and we'll help you get
started. Devs can't start fixing problems until they are appropriately
prioritized so there may be hundreds of bugs about interoperability with
MSO but Devs can't look at it until our small team of QA'ers get to them
and verify the bugs and then prioritize.

Regards,
Joel

On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 8:28 AM, Marc Paré m...@marcpare.com wrote:

Hi Carl,

Le 2012-11-19 08:34, Carl Paulsen a écrit :

Thanks, Regina. I know there are other ways to contribute, but I don't
necessarily know what they are. Templates is one way, but the real
issue I see is going from MSO to LO/OO. We can't control the other end.

So is there a simple list of SPECIFIC ways users can contribute
(templates is a good example) that is easily found? I've seen some
general lists of how to contribute, but I haven't searched much for more
specifics. In any case it should probably be front and center on the
website (again, not the develop, donate $$, etc. generic list, but more
specifics).

Carl

Our contributions are team driven. Usually, if an individual is seriously
interested in contributing:

* she/he will go to the Get Involved section of our website[1]
* read through the different categories for contribution
* choose/join an area of interest
* announce her/himself to the list
* state their particular interest in that section
* members will then direct them to their project needs

If unsure of where you would best fit:

* the user or the discuss mailing lists are where you could leave
questions with regards to contributing
* someone from the project will ask you about your interests, after which,
guide you to the right contributor-section that suits you best
* once you have joined the team and announced yourself, the team members
will help guide you to their project needs.

Feel free to let us know in what way you could help out the project, and,
we will help you find the right section. You will find that we will gladly
accept your help in whatever section you decide to join.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Marc
Marketing Team Member

http://www.libreoffice.org/**get-involved/http://www.libreoffice.org/get-involved/

--
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m...@marcpare.com
http://www.parEntreprise.com
parEntreprise.com Supports OpenDocument Formats (ODF)
parEntreprise.com Supports http://www.LibreOffice.org

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?


On 11/19/2012 09:52 AM, VA wrote:

Jay wrote:

ODF formats are the international standard so technically MS is not
being standards compliant. This may be very useful if someone where to
sue MS for monopolistic practices.

I think there's a difference between standards as declared by 
computer developers and societies and standards determined by the 
marketplace. In the business marketplace, DOC and DOCX are the 
standard as they are what the vast number of business users use.


And, in the market place, standards can change. Twenty years ago, the 
standard for word processors was WordPerfect (WPD). Over time that 
changed to Word, but even then, in the legal profession, WordPerfect 
held on a little longer. Now, WordPerfect is a footnote.


MS may not be standards compliant but as long as they are the 
biggest game in town, what they do IS the standard.


Virgil

I think the issue becomes there is a recognized international standard. 
In a lawsuit the issue becomes why does one not fully support the 
international standard or if you refuse why do not fully publish your 
standard. In the 80's I do not remember an international standard for 
anything other that text documents so everyone made their own.


--
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jsloz...@gmail.com


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-19 Thread Don C. Myers


Hi Everyone,

When the Microsoft formats were approved as an ISO standard, wasn't that 
supposed to make the information on their formats available to everyone 
else? From what I've read through the years, they have failed to 
implement their own ISO standards. Shouldn't there be some way to 
enforce the ISO standards approval on Microsoft so they can become 
inter-operable with LibreOffice?


Don


On 11/19/2012 08:03 AM, VA wrote:

Tanstaafl wrote:

There is one more hing that could turn this around - if the EU (or some
other major governmental entity) were to engage in and win an antitrust
lawsuit against Microsoft and force them to *fully* document their file
formats, as happened with their Windows Server SMB protocols (which I
understand has benefited the Samba project immensely).


It would help immensely if the Open Source folks would combine their 
efforts on one excellent MS alternative. The twin development of AOO 
and LibO (with each having its own advantages over the other), only 
helps MS.


Virgil



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-19 Thread Regina Henschel


Hi Everyone,

Don C. Myers schrieb:

Hi Everyone,

When the Microsoft formats were approved as an ISO standard, wasn't that
supposed to make the information on their formats available to everyone
else?


You can get the OOXML standard from 
http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-376.htm


You can get the binary file format description from
http://www.microsoft.com/openspecifications/en/us/programs/osp/office-file-formats/default.aspx

 From what I've read through the years, they have failed to

implement their own ISO standards.


The ECMA standard is available in MSO 2013 as OOXML strict, but LO 
fails to read it.


 Shouldn't there be some way to

enforce the ISO standards approval on Microsoft so they can become
inter-operable with LibreOffice?


MSO 2013 supports ODF 1.2.

If an authority demands standards or even demands ODF, this can all be 
fulfilled with MSO, no need to use LO.


Kind regards
Regina




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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-19 Thread Tanstaafl


On 2012-11-19 12:43 PM, Regina Henschel rb.hensc...@t-online.de wrote:

You can get the OOXML standard from
http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-376.htm


Are you actually suggesting that this is either complete or accurate?


You can get the binary file format description from
http://www.microsoft.com/openspecifications/en/us/programs/osp/office-file-formats/default.aspx


Ditto... a 'description of a file format' doesn't equate to somethinhg 
that can be used/relied upon to build something that accurately renders 
and/or recreates said format.



The ECMA standard is available in MSO 2013 as OOXML strict, but LO
fails to read it.


So, I've heard, does MSO...


MSO 2013 supports ODF 1.2.


Really? Have you tested this? How accurately does it render ODF 1.2 
files created with LibO?



If an authority demands standards or even demands ODF, this can all be
fulfilled with MSO, no need to use LO.


Rotflmao!

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RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-19 Thread Dennis E. Hamilton

The docx, xslx, pptx formats and others are OOXML. There are deviations as well 
as features (such as encryption) that are not part of OOXML.  But most of the 
non-support claims about Microsoft honoring OOXML are based on the fact that 
early implementations supported the transitional flavor of OOXML.  The move to 
the strict flavor, a separation created in the ISO process, has been made over 
time along with continuing support of transitional OOXML.

My experience is that deviations with respect to the OOXML standard are 
documented better in Microsoft on-line implementation notes than is done by any 
implementations of ODF-based software.  

Microsoft Office also supports ODF 1.1 since Office 2007 SP2 and ODF 1.2 is 
supported in the new Office 2013.  There are public, on-line implementation 
notes and documentation of deviations for those too.  I've also heard that 
European versions of Microsoft Office can be set to have ODF as the default 
format.  I have no way to confirm that and I am not certain that is new with 
Office 2013 or is also the case for Office 2010.

The main binary formats, and RTF (a text-carried format) are now all documented 
and that has been true for a few years. All of the specifications are freely 
downloadable. 

 - Dennis

-Original Message-
From: Don C. Myers [mailto:donmy...@myersfarm.com] 
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 08:57
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

Hi Everyone,

When the Microsoft formats were approved as an ISO standard, wasn't that 
supposed to make the information on their formats available to everyone 
else? From what I've read through the years, they have failed to 
implement their own ISO standards. Shouldn't there be some way to 
enforce the ISO standards approval on Microsoft so they can become 
inter-operable with LibreOffice?

Don


On 11/19/2012 08:03 AM, VA wrote:
 Tanstaafl wrote:

 There is one more hing that could turn this around - if the EU (or some
 other major governmental entity) were to engage in and win an antitrust
 lawsuit against Microsoft and force them to *fully* document their file
 formats, as happened with their Windows Server SMB protocols (which I
 understand has benefited the Samba project immensely).


 It would help immensely if the Open Source folks would combine their 
 efforts on one excellent MS alternative. The twin development of AOO 
 and LibO (with each having its own advantages over the other), only 
 helps MS.

 Virgil


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-19 Thread Gordon Burgess-Parker


On 19/11/12 17:59, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:

I've also heard that European versions of Microsoft Office can be set to have 
ODF as the default format.


That's correct - on a fresh install of Office 2010 it asks whether you 
want ODF or OOXML as the default document type.


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Say No to OOXMLhttp://www.linuxjournal.com/article/9594#mpart8

I only accept odf or pdf documents by email


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RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-19 Thread Dennis E. Hamilton

The OOXML specifications are at least as complete and rigorous as the ODF ones.

Every indication is that the ODF 1.2 support in Office 2013 is quite good.  Of 
particular importance to many users is that OpenFormula is now supported, and 
this will provide a tremendous improvement in interop between LibreOffice Calc 
and MSO 2013.  Whether this becomes a preferable path between Office and 
LibreOffice instead of relying on OOXML conversion in LO is an open question.

You can test the support yourself using the in-browser support of documents via 
Web applications in Microsoft SkyDrive.  Not all features are supported on 
SkyDrive (for either Microsoft OOXML or ODF), but this should provide an 
initial smell test.

Yes, more detailed testing and comparison is a good idea.

 - Dennis

-Original Message-
From: Tanstaafl [mailto:tansta...@libertytrek.org] 
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 09:59
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

On 2012-11-19 12:43 PM, Regina Henschel rb.hensc...@t-online.de wrote:
 You can get the OOXML standard from
 http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-376.htm

Are you actually suggesting that this is either complete or accurate?

 You can get the binary file format description from
 http://www.microsoft.com/openspecifications/en/us/programs/osp/office-file-formats/default.aspx

Ditto... a 'description of a file format' doesn't equate to somethinhg 
that can be used/relied upon to build something that accurately renders 
and/or recreates said format.

 The ECMA standard is available in MSO 2013 as OOXML strict, but LO
 fails to read it.

So, I've heard, does MSO...

 MSO 2013 supports ODF 1.2.

Really? Have you tested this? How accurately does it render ODF 1.2 
files created with LibO?

 If an authority demands standards or even demands ODF, this can all be
 fulfilled with MSO, no need to use LO.

Rotflmao!

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-19 Thread Steven Bradley

I remember this discussion a few years back, when MSO was the defacto
standard, and a moving target. One of the most important things for any
agency, company government, or individual is backward compatibility. I have
many documents that are difficult for me to retrieve, and I wrote them less
than 20 years ago, using DOS programs.  I can only imagine what things will
be like in 30 years for those old files. I believe it's of paramount
importance, even in this age of rapid development and change, to realize
that electronic storage of documents is the wave of the future. They must
all be stored in a simple-to-access format that any program can read, not
just the latest flavor of the big boy.  I am actually fairly concerned
about this, since the concept of proprietary file types has never been
addressed by any government agency (it would be easy, for example, for the
USGovt to mandate that all files be maintained with the formatting in a
separate file.  If a large govt (China, the US, EU) mandated that simple
change, then all files would cease to be proprietary, except for formatting
changes.  One might lose the formats, but the file itself would have a
permanence that most files do not now have.  I might also suggest that the
file formatting be subject to some sort of regulation (yes, they CAN do
that!), which makes all formatting retrievable, no matter how long it's
been since the file was created.
Otherwise, we'll all lose a huge amount of information.
That's my opinion.  YMMV
Steve Bradley


On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 9:59 AM, Dennis E. Hamilton dennis.hamil...@acm.org
 wrote:

 The docx, xslx, pptx formats and others are OOXML. There are deviations as
 well as features (such as encryption) that are not part of OOXML.  But most
 of the non-support claims about Microsoft honoring OOXML are based on the
 fact that early implementations supported the transitional flavor of OOXML.
  The move to the strict flavor, a separation created in the ISO process,
 has been made over time along with continuing support of transitional OOXML.

 My experience is that deviations with respect to the OOXML standard are
 documented better in Microsoft on-line implementation notes than is done by
 any implementations of ODF-based software.

 Microsoft Office also supports ODF 1.1 since Office 2007 SP2 and ODF 1.2
 is supported in the new Office 2013.  There are public, on-line
 implementation notes and documentation of deviations for those too.  I've
 also heard that European versions of Microsoft Office can be set to have
 ODF as the default format.  I have no way to confirm that and I am not
 certain that is new with Office 2013 or is also the case for Office 2010.

 The main binary formats, and RTF (a text-carried format) are now all
 documented and that has been true for a few years. All of the
 specifications are freely downloadable.

  - Dennis

 -Original Message-
 From: Don C. Myers [mailto:donmy...@myersfarm.com]
 Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 08:57
 To: users@global.libreoffice.org
 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

 Hi Everyone,

 When the Microsoft formats were approved as an ISO standard, wasn't that
 supposed to make the information on their formats available to everyone
 else? From what I've read through the years, they have failed to
 implement their own ISO standards. Shouldn't there be some way to
 enforce the ISO standards approval on Microsoft so they can become
 inter-operable with LibreOffice?

 Don


 On 11/19/2012 08:03 AM, VA wrote:
  Tanstaafl wrote:
 
  There is one more hing that could turn this around - if the EU (or some
  other major governmental entity) were to engage in and win an antitrust
  lawsuit against Microsoft and force them to *fully* document their file
  formats, as happened with their Windows Server SMB protocols (which I
  understand has benefited the Samba project immensely).
 
 
  It would help immensely if the Open Source folks would combine their
  efforts on one excellent MS alternative. The twin development of AOO
  and LibO (with each having its own advantages over the other), only
  helps MS.
 
  Virgil
 

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-- 
 Steven C. (Steve) Bradley
CA Dept of Real

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

Thanks, all. My resources are such that it'd be hard for me to
contribute much, but it's helpful to know there are small ways I could
pitch in. I will see if I can make room to contribute in some way. And
the specific suggestions are indeed helpful.

Carl

On 11/19/12 11:31 AM, Joel Madero wrote:

Regards,
Joel

On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 8:28 AM, Marc Paré m...@marcpare.com wrote:

Hi Carl,

Le 2012-11-19 08:34, Carl Paulsen a écrit :

So is there a simple list of SPECIFIC ways users can contribute
(templates is a good example) that is easily found? I've seen some
general lists of how to contribute, but I haven't searched much for more
specifics. In any case it should probably be front and center on the
website (again, not the develop, donate $$, etc. generic list, but more
specifics).

Carl

Our contributions are team driven. Usually, if an individual is seriously
interested in contributing:

If unsure of where you would best fit:

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Marc
Marketing Team Member

http://www.libreoffice.org/**get-involved/http://www.libreoffice.org/get-involved/

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parEntreprise.com Supports http://www.LibreOffice.org

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?


On 11/19/2012 01:13 PM, Steven Bradley wrote:

I remember this discussion a few years back, when MSO was the defacto
standard, and a moving target. One of the most important things for any
agency, company government, or individual is backward compatibility. I have
many documents that are difficult for me to retrieve, and I wrote them less
than 20 years ago, using DOS programs.  I can only imagine what things will
be like in 30 years for those old files. I believe it's of paramount
importance, even in this age of rapid development and change, to realize
that electronic storage of documents is the wave of the future. They must
all be stored in a simple-to-access format that any program can read, not
just the latest flavor of the big boy.  I am actually fairly concerned
about this, since the concept of proprietary file types has never been
addressed by any government agency (it would be easy, for example, for the
USGovt to mandate that all files be maintained with the formatting in a
separate file.  If a large govt (China, the US, EU) mandated that simple
change, then all files would cease to be proprietary, except for formatting
changes.  One might lose the formats, but the file itself would have a
permanence that most files do not now have.  I might also suggest that the
file formatting be subject to some sort of regulation (yes, they CAN do
that!), which makes all formatting retrievable, no matter how long it's
been since the file was created.
Otherwise, we'll all lose a huge amount of information.
That's my opinion.  YMMV
Steve Bradley
Add to file formats, ability to read the old media (floppies, zip-disks, 
etc). Back to your point, it will probably take government action to 
force the use of ODF or similar standard formats over any proprietary 
formats. I am waiting for the MSO version that drops support for doc and 
related formats.


snip


--
Jay Lozier
jsloz...@gmail.com


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

At the risk of getting political, the last thing I want is my government 
dictating to me what kind of file format to use on my documents.


Virgil

-Original Message- 
From: Jay Lozier

Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 2:16 PM
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

On 11/19/2012 01:13 PM, Steven Bradley wrote:

I remember this discussion a few years back, when MSO was the defacto
standard, and a moving target. One of the most important things for any
agency, company government, or individual is backward compatibility. I 
have
many documents that are difficult for me to retrieve, and I wrote them 
less
than 20 years ago, using DOS programs.  I can only imagine what things 
will

be like in 30 years for those old files. I believe it's of paramount
importance, even in this age of rapid development and change, to realize
that electronic storage of documents is the wave of the future. They must
all be stored in a simple-to-access format that any program can read, not
just the latest flavor of the big boy.  I am actually fairly concerned
about this, since the concept of proprietary file types has never been
addressed by any government agency (it would be easy, for example, for the
USGovt to mandate that all files be maintained with the formatting in a
separate file.  If a large govt (China, the US, EU) mandated that simple
change, then all files would cease to be proprietary, except for 
formatting

changes.  One might lose the formats, but the file itself would have a
permanence that most files do not now have.  I might also suggest that the
file formatting be subject to some sort of regulation (yes, they CAN do
that!), which makes all formatting retrievable, no matter how long it's
been since the file was created.
Otherwise, we'll all lose a huge amount of information.
That's my opinion.  YMMV
Steve Bradley

Add to file formats, ability to read the old media (floppies, zip-disks,
etc). Back to your point, it will probably take government action to
force the use of ODF or similar standard formats over any proprietary
formats. I am waiting for the MSO version that drops support for doc and
related formats.

snip


--
Jay Lozier
jsloz...@gmail.com


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012/11/19 VA cuyfa...@hotmail.com

 At the risk of getting political, the last thing I want is my government
 dictating to me what kind of file format to use on my documents.

 Virgil


At the risk of getting political, the last thing I want is a multi-national
corporation, responsible to no one save a few major shareholders and/or top
executives, which, due to its domination of the market, can effectively
render it manditory for me to use its proprietary file format

Regulation of markets, so that they remain as free and accessible as
possible, is one of the principle tasks of government

Henri

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-19 Thread Girvin R. Herr




Steven Bradley wrote:

I remember this discussion a few years back, when MSO was the defacto
standard, and a moving target. One of the most important things for any
agency, company government, or individual is backward compatibility. I have
many documents that are difficult for me to retrieve, and I wrote them less
than 20 years ago, using DOS programs.  I can only imagine what things will
be like in 30 years for those old files. I believe it's of paramount
importance, even in this age of rapid development and change, to realize
that electronic storage of documents is the wave of the future. They must
all be stored in a simple-to-access format that any program can read, not
just the latest flavor of the big boy.  I am actually fairly concerned
about this, since the concept of proprietary file types has never been
addressed by any government agency (it would be easy, for example, for the
USGovt to mandate that all files be maintained with the formatting in a
separate file.  If a large govt (China, the US, EU) mandated that simple
change, then all files would cease to be proprietary, except for formatting
changes.  One might lose the formats, but the file itself would have a
permanence that most files do not now have.  I might also suggest that the
file formatting be subject to some sort of regulation (yes, they CAN do
that!), which makes all formatting retrievable, no matter how long it's
been since the file was created.
Otherwise, we'll all lose a huge amount of information.
That's my opinion.  YMMV
Steve Bradley

  

+10
Girvin Herr

snip


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-19 Thread Don C. Myers


Well said Henri!

On 11/19/2012 03:15 PM, M Henri Day wrote:

2012/11/19 VA cuyfa...@hotmail.com


At the risk of getting political, the last thing I want is my government
dictating to me what kind of file format to use on my documents.

Virgil


At the risk of getting political, the last thing I want is a multi-national
corporation, responsible to no one save a few major shareholders and/or top
executives, which, due to its domination of the market, can effectively
render it manditory for me to use its proprietary file format

Regulation of markets, so that they remain as free and accessible as
possible, is one of the principle tasks of government

Henri



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-19 Thread Girvin R. Herr




M Henri Day wrote:

2012/11/19 VA cuyfa...@hotmail.com

  

At the risk of getting political, the last thing I want is my government
dictating to me what kind of file format to use on my documents.

Virgil




At the risk of getting political, the last thing I want is a multi-national
corporation, responsible to no one save a few major shareholders and/or top
executives, which, due to its domination of the market, can effectively
render it manditory for me to use its proprietary file format

Regulation of markets, so that they remain as free and accessible as
possible, is one of the principle tasks of government

Henri

  

+2
Girvin Herr


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-19 Thread webmaster-Kracked_P_P

On 11/19/2012 12:58 PM, Tanstaafl wrote:

On 2012-11-19 12:43 PM, Regina Henschel rb.hensc...@t-online.de wrote:

You can get the OOXML standard from
http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-376.htm

Are you actually suggesting that this is either complete or accurate?

You can get the binary file format description from
http://www.microsoft.com/openspecifications/en/us/programs/osp/office-file-formats/default.aspx

Ditto... a 'description of a file format' doesn't equate to somethinhg
that can be used/relied upon to build something that accurately
renders and/or recreates said format.

The ECMA standard is available in MSO 2013 as OOXML strict, but LO
fails to read it.

So, I've heard, does MSO...

The new OOXML works only with MSO 2013. So this is another time they
make their new version's OOXML not compatible with their previous
versions of MSO. 2010 cannot read the new 2013 version, 2007 cannot
read the one that came out with 2010. That is why I stick with .doc for
Word 97/2000/XP/2003. Then everyone I know that uses Word will be able
to use my files.

SO, it only makes sense that it will be a bit till LO gets the needed
import/export filters to work with this newest version of MSO. I wonder
if the format is actually finalized yet. Last I heard it was not, as
well as MSO 2013 was in beta testing.

MSO 2013 supports ODF 1.2.

Really? Have you tested this? How accurately does it render ODF 1.2
files created with LibO?

If an authority demands standards or even demands ODF, this can all be
fulfilled with MSO, no need to use LO.

Rotflmao!

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

While its interesting to get different perspectives from around the globe, 
I'm not sure we'll agree on the principal tasks of government, so I'll leave 
that subject and return to the computer side of things.


Without trying to defend MS, it can only dominate markets that customers 
allow it to dominate. Nobody is forced to purchase MS products. They do so 
because, for whatever reason, they perceive that MS serves their needs. One 
of those needs is file compatibility with others, which by its nature, 
allows MS sales to feed on themselves. The more people buy MS products, the 
more people need to buy MS products to communicate with all the others who 
went before.


Perhaps it's also a function of job security for IT managers. Back in the 
'80s, the saying was that, nobody ever got fired for buying IBM products. 
My guess is that, today, you can replace IBM in that phrase with 
Microsoft.


Virgil

-Original Message- 
From: M Henri Day

Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 3:15 PM
To: VA
Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012/11/19 VA cuyfa...@hotmail.com


At the risk of getting political, the last thing I want is my government
dictating to me what kind of file format to use on my documents.

Virgil



At the risk of getting political, the last thing I want is a multi-national
corporation, responsible to no one save a few major shareholders and/or top
executives, which, due to its domination of the market, can effectively
render it manditory for me to use its proprietary file format

Regulation of markets, so that they remain as free and accessible as
possible, is one of the principle tasks of government

Henri

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?


On 11/19/2012 02:24 PM, VA wrote:
At the risk of getting political, the last thing I want is my 
government dictating to me what kind of file format to use on my 
documents.


Virgil

The issue is not truly political if the agreed standards are used by all 
- it levels the playing field and tends to lower costs for consumers.

-Original Message- From: Jay Lozier
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 2:16 PM
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in 
Freiburg ?


On 11/19/2012 01:13 PM, Steven Bradley wrote:

I remember this discussion a few years back, when MSO was the defacto
standard, and a moving target. One of the most important things for any
agency, company government, or individual is backward compatibility. 
I have
many documents that are difficult for me to retrieve, and I wrote 
them less
than 20 years ago, using DOS programs.  I can only imagine what 
things will

be like in 30 years for those old files. I believe it's of paramount
importance, even in this age of rapid development and change, to realize
that electronic storage of documents is the wave of the future. They 
must
all be stored in a simple-to-access format that any program can read, 
not

just the latest flavor of the big boy.  I am actually fairly concerned
about this, since the concept of proprietary file types has never been
addressed by any government agency (it would be easy, for example, 
for the

USGovt to mandate that all files be maintained with the formatting in a
separate file.  If a large govt (China, the US, EU) mandated that simple
change, then all files would cease to be proprietary, except for 
formatting

changes.  One might lose the formats, but the file itself would have a
permanence that most files do not now have.  I might also suggest 
that the

file formatting be subject to some sort of regulation (yes, they CAN do
that!), which makes all formatting retrievable, no matter how long it's
been since the file was created.
Otherwise, we'll all lose a huge amount of information.
That's my opinion.  YMMV
Steve Bradley

Add to file formats, ability to read the old media (floppies, zip-disks,
etc). Back to your point, it will probably take government action to
force the use of ODF or similar standard formats over any proprietary
formats. I am waiting for the MSO version that drops support for doc and
related formats.

snip





--
Jay Lozier
jsloz...@gmail.com


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-19 Thread Mirosław Zalewski

On 19/11/2012 at 15:52, VA cuyfa...@hotmail.com wrote:

 I think there's a difference between standards as declared by computer 
 developers and societies and standards determined by the marketplace.

I believe that lawyers call them de facto standard and... we would really 
like this to be standard, so do us a favor, please - standard. It's hard to 
call ODF de jure standard, really.
-- 
Best regards
Mirosław Zalewski

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-19 Thread Steven Bradley

I think my point, apparently not clear, was that governments themselves
would say, We will only *use* software that meets these criteria. I don't
support governments mandating file types, or intervening in my private
business. However, they are by far the biggest elephant in the room, and
if, for example, the USGovt would say, Folks, we love your software, but
we will only buy it if it produces file types that are compatible with the
following then MSO and others would do that, because they need sales
as much as the next company.  And about the govt being involved in the
computer world, and the internet...anybody remember DARPA??  And DARPAnet??
Steve


On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 1:44 PM, Mirosław Zalewski
mini...@poczta.onet.plwrote:

 On 19/11/2012 at 15:52, VA cuyfa...@hotmail.com wrote:

  I think there's a difference between standards as declared by computer
  developers and societies and standards determined by the marketplace.

 I believe that lawyers call them de facto standard and... we would
 really
 like this to be standard, so do us a favor, please - standard. It's hard
 to
 call ODF de jure standard, really.
 --
 Best regards
 Mirosław Zalewski

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-- 
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CA Dept of Real Estate, Lic. #00869762
619-316-8781 Direct
619-442-8833 XT 119 Office
See my websites:
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http://realestateandfinancialwisdom.blogspot.com

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absolutely no good. - Samuel
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

I fully agree with your clarification. Microsoft needs customers more than 
customers need Microsoft, and the larger customers could very well influence 
how Microsoft designs its software.


Virgil

-Original Message- 
From: Steven Bradley

Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 5:20 PM
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

I think my point, apparently not clear, was that governments themselves
would say, We will only *use* software that meets these criteria. I don't
support governments mandating file types, or intervening in my private
business. However, they are by far the biggest elephant in the room, and
if, for example, the USGovt would say, Folks, we love your software, but
we will only buy it if it produces file types that are compatible with the
following then MSO and others would do that, because they need sales
as much as the next company.  And about the govt being involved in the
computer world, and the internet...anybody remember DARPA??  And DARPAnet??
Steve


On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 1:44 PM, Mirosław Zalewski
mini...@poczta.onet.plwrote:


On 19/11/2012 at 15:52, VA cuyfa...@hotmail.com wrote:

 I think there's a difference between standards as declared by computer
 developers and societies and standards determined by the marketplace.

I believe that lawyers call them de facto standard and... we would
really
like this to be standard, so do us a favor, please - standard. It's hard
to
call ODF de jure standard, really.
--
Best regards
Mirosław Zalewski

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CA Dept of Real Estate, Lic. #00869762
619-316-8781 Direct
619-442-8833 XT 119 Office
See my websites:
Real Estate and Finance
http://realestateandfinancialwisdom.blogspot.com

Relationship with God:
http://truevoiceofthefather.blogspot.com/
http://realestateandfinancialwisdom.blogspot.com/


The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other
people's money.
--Margaret Thatcher
The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him
absolutely no good. - Samuel
Johnson

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-19 Thread James Knott


VA wrote:

Nobody is forced to purchase MS products.


Try and buy a computer without Windows.  While there are some available, 
they're rare.  Also, read up on the MS anti trust cases to see how they 
forced market share with illegal and near illegal methods, including 
extortion.



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

I'm not defending Microsoft; I don't particularly like them. I'm just saying 
that if I don't want to buy MS, I don't have to, and neither does anyone 
else.


Of course, you can buy a Mac and not have Windows. However, I never count 
Windows as a purchase because it comes installed on the computer. I don't 
pay any extra for it, and I have NEVER purchased any Windows upgrade. After 
buying a Windows computer, if I wanted, I could completely blow off the 
Windows, reformat the hard drive and install Linux. I'm sure many people 
have done just that. I have a dual-boot Windows/Linux system on my laptop.


While my employer has purchased MS Office, I have never done so for my home 
computers.


In other words, no matter what tactics MS uses, legal or not, as the 
customer, I always control where I spend my money. MS cannot dominate my 
computer without my permission or the software market without our collective 
permission.


Virgil

-Original Message- 
From: James Knott

Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 7:04 PM
To: LibreOffice
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

VA wrote:

Nobody is forced to purchase MS products.


Try and buy a computer without Windows.  While there are some available,
they're rare.  Also, read up on the MS anti trust cases to see how they
forced market share with illegal and near illegal methods, including
extortion.


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-19 Thread Steve Edmonds


I get a discount for purchasing without windows.
I say I want that machine, no windows, take it off the price, and save 
myself some dollars.

Steve

On 2012-11-20 13:57, VA wrote:
I'm not defending Microsoft; I don't particularly like them. I'm just 
saying that if I don't want to buy MS, I don't have to, and neither 
does anyone else.


Of course, you can buy a Mac and not have Windows. However, I never 
count Windows as a purchase because it comes installed on the 
computer. I don't pay any extra for it, and I have NEVER purchased any 
Windows upgrade. After buying a Windows computer, if I wanted, I could 
completely blow off the Windows, reformat the hard drive and install 
Linux. I'm sure many people have done just that. I have a dual-boot 
Windows/Linux system on my laptop.


While my employer has purchased MS Office, I have never done so for my 
home computers.


In other words, no matter what tactics MS uses, legal or not, as the 
customer, I always control where I spend my money. MS cannot dominate 
my computer without my permission or the software market without our 
collective permission.


Virgil

-Original Message- From: James Knott
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 7:04 PM
To: LibreOffice
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in 
Freiburg ?


VA wrote:

Nobody is forced to purchase MS products.


Try and buy a computer without Windows.  While there are some available,
they're rare.  Also, read up on the MS anti trust cases to see how they
forced market share with illegal and near illegal methods, including
extortion.





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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

Here, here.  But what about gov'ts mandating simply that the format 
structure be open (without mandating a specific one be used)? That's not 
political IMHO.

Carl


On 11/19/12 3:15 PM, M Henri Day wrote:

2012/11/19 VA cuyfa...@hotmail.com


At the risk of getting political, the last thing I want is my government
dictating to me what kind of file format to use on my documents.

Virgil


At the risk of getting political, the last thing I want is a multi-national
corporation, responsible to no one save a few major shareholders and/or top
executives, which, due to its domination of the market, can effectively
render it manditory for me to use its proprietary file format

Regulation of markets, so that they remain as free and accessible as
possible, is one of the principle tasks of government

Henri



--

Carl Paulsen

8 Hamilton Street

Dover, NH 03820

(603) 749-2310


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?