Re: Most system update requires system reboot or session restart

[Sudhir Khanger]

On Wednesday 21 December 2016 2:37:41 AM IST Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> You aren't in a rock and hard place though.   Restarting is not strictly
> necessary.  It is a good idea however.  You can also choose to use a more
> conservative distribution and apply just security updates.  C.f 
> RHEL/CentOS.

I am aware of other options. I just wanted to make sure that I am not missing 
anything.

I <3 Fedora Plasma desktop. I have been using it since F19. I have been in 
fact upgrading from one version to next for 2 years now. AKA it's already 
rolling for me. Fedora Plasma desktop strikes a nice balance for me that is 
fresh packages with no setup time requirements.

I will think about it. I may remove the tracer plugin and just like everyone 
else ignore the warnings. Probably everyone on Fedora, Arch, Slackware, 
Gentoo, and other distros are already doing that.

-- 
Regards,
Sudhir Khanger,
sudhirkhanger.com.
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Re: Most system update requires system reboot or session restart

[Joe Zeff]

On 12/20/2016 10:50 PM, Tim wrote:

Programmers like the easiest solution of doing what they want, and let
the user put up with the consequences.  Users prefer things to be less
intrusive.


Correction: bad programmers do that and arrogant programmers assume that 
everybody is going to want to do things their way so there's no reason 
to make it possible to configure things.  Good programmers try to find 
out what people really want and do what they can to provide it.

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Re: Most system update requires system reboot or session restart

[Tim]

Sudhir Khanger:
>> On my weekly update I notice that I am almost always required to either
>> restart the session or reboot the system. Both of these options are
>> unacceptable because they require closing 10-15 apps and restarting
>> them. That's unnecessary hassle and loss in productivity.

Bryon Adams:
> You don't HAVE to reboot, but some of the updated applications require 
> unloading an loading again. Wouldn't the easy solution be to reboot once 
> you're done with work for the week? I personally don't know why people 
> leave their computers on forever if it's not a server but that's just 
> me. I turn my computer off when I'm done with it.

The "easy solution" always depends on who's point of view it is.
Programmers like the easiest solution of doing what they want, and let
the user put up with the consequences.  Users prefer things to be less
intrusive.

I'm used to having to reboot for things like kernels and base things for
your computer (graphics, etc.), but not for anything else.  Having to
reboot is a time waster, shut down isn't that quick, start-up is longer,
and the interruptions to what I'm doing are annoying.

I'm used to not having to reboot for ordinary software.  I'm used to it
carrying on working during an update, though firefox was one exception
(it usually grinds to a halt and requires quitting and restarting).  I'm
used to the idea that if a program has been updated that I'm in the
middle of using, that it's going to need quitting and restarting to use
the new updated version, but not actually having to do that until I
want.  e.g. I've carried on word processing while the software is
getting updated.

It's one of the major advantages I've had with Linux against other
operating systems, that updates will happen in the background, and
rarely with any annoying consequences.  Windows, on the other hand, and
even Mac, I'm annoyingly used to any update cycle wasting an hour or
more of my time, as the computer is either too thrashed by the update
process to use it for my own purposes at the same time, or highly likely
to need rebooting while I'm in the middle of doing things.  Sometimes,
it'll unceremoniously reboot, while I'm doing things.  And there'll be
another prolonged pause while it boots up that you can't do anything
with it while it fiddles with itself.  Once I watched the entire film,
and extras, of Dr Zhivago (a damn long film), while Windows did its
business.  The computer was unusable during almost the entirety of that
process, and you wouldn't want to try and use it for the few minutes
that it let you.

Leaving that to some time I don't want to use the computer, presumes
that I have the spare time to babysit the computer, while I have other
things to do.

Linux is *not* Windows, don't go down that route.

-- 
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -rsvp
Linux 3.9.10-100.fc17.x86_64 #1 SMP Sun Jul 14 01:31:27 UTC 2013 x86_64

Boilerplate:  All mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted, there is
no point trying to privately email me, I only get to see the messages
posted to the mailing list.

The internet, your opportunity to learn from other peoples' mistakes.


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Re: Most system update requires system reboot or session restart

[Ralf Corsepius]

On 12/21/2016 02:00 AM, Kevin Fenzi wrote:

On Tue, 20 Dec 2016 15:39:08 -0800
Joe Zeff  wrote:


On 12/20/2016 03:27 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:

Depends on which part.

You can use dnf repoquery to list duplicates, leaf packages (now
"unneeded", which I don't think is an improvement in clarity, but
whatever), orphans ("extras", and ditto), unsatisfied deps (formerly
"problems", now "unsatisfied" — that one is an improvement).

The cleandupes functionality is now "dnf remove --duplicates".


That's good to know.  Somehow, upgrades seem to hang on this system
(but not my laptop) leaving me unable to start a GUI, and with so
many dupes that I'd have to get a list of them (package-cleanup
--dupes | grep
fcXX> dupes.txt with XX representing the older disty because it
fcXX> listed
both sets) and then clean them up a few at a time by hand.  Not the
most pleasant task, but doable as long as I've got a simple way to
get that list.


FYI, If you are looking for a particular dnf command that does something
yum used to do the first place to look is 'man yum2dnf'
(or https://dnf.readthedocs.io/en/latest/cli_vs_yum.html )


While we're at it:

No idea, what "dnf repoquery --unneeded" does, but it by no means is an 
equivalent to "package-cleanup --leaves":


# package-cleanup --leaves | wc -l
...
40

# dnf repoquery --unneeded
[nothing]

It's one of the reasons I still have package-cleanup installed.

Ralf

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Re: Most system update requires system reboot or session restart

[Rahul Sundaram]

Hi

On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 7:09 PM Sudhir Khanger

>
>
> I think the bottom line is that you are caught between a rock and a hard
> place. Either take the productivity hit by updating and restarting or take
> the
> security hit by not updating.
>

You aren't in a rock and hard place though.   Restarting is not strictly
necessary.  It is a good idea however.  You can also choose to use a more
conservative distribution and apply just security updates.  C.f
 RHEL/CentOS.

Rahul
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Re: Auto suspend stopped working on my workstation

[Rick Stevens]

On 12/20/2016 05:11 PM, Matthew Saltzman wrote:
> On Mon, 2016-12-19 at 19:35 +, Matthew Saltzman wrote:
>> On Mon, 2016-12-19 at 11:10 +, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
>>> On Mon, 2016-12-19 at 00:28 +, Matthew Saltzman wrote:
 It happened a few weeks ago, so I don't recall what updates might
 be
 involved, but my workstation used to suspend itself after some
 minutes
 of inactivity. Then after some update (a kernel was involved, I
 believe, in case that might matter), it seems to have stopped.
 Even
 auto screen blanking doesn't work now. The settings haven't
 changed.

 How to troubleshoot?
>>>
>>> Well you could start by mentioning your version of Fedora and what
>>> kernel you have. Otherwise it's hard to see how anyone can help
>>> you.
>>
>> That's true. Sorry, I'm usually better about that.
>>
>> This is Fedora 25 with kernel-4.8.14-300.fc25.x86_64 (all the latest
>> updates), but it started a few kernels back and I don't recall what
>> the
>> last working kernel or first failing kernel was.
> 
> So adding the requested specifics hasn't helped yet... (Everyone seems
> distracted by that other topic. Just thought I'd try to break back
> through.)

I had suggested you look at the system logs as well as the Xorg logs (if
you're using X and not Wayland) to see if there were any indications as
to why this was happening, such as ACPI problems and whatnot.

Screen blanking works fine on my Dell Inspiron N7110:

64-bit F25, updated as of 10 a.m. Los Angeles time
kernel 4.8.14-300.fc25.x86_64
X.Org X Server 1.19.0
Xfce4 (xfwm4 v4.12.3, xfce4-session v4.12.1, xfce4-power-manger
v1.6.0, et al)

--
- Rick Stevens, Systems Engineer, AllDigitalri...@alldigital.com -
- AIM/Skype: therps2ICQ: 226437340   Yahoo: origrps2 -
--
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-- The Wizard of OS  -
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Re: Auto suspend stopped working on my workstation

[Matthew Saltzman]

On Mon, 2016-12-19 at 19:35 +, Matthew Saltzman wrote:
> On Mon, 2016-12-19 at 11:10 +, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > On Mon, 2016-12-19 at 00:28 +, Matthew Saltzman wrote:
> > > It happened a few weeks ago, so I don't recall what updates might
> > > be
> > > involved, but my workstation used to suspend itself after some
> > > minutes
> > > of inactivity. Then after some update (a kernel was involved, I
> > > believe, in case that might matter), it seems to have stopped.
> > > Even
> > > auto screen blanking doesn't work now. The settings haven't
> > > changed.
> > > 
> > > How to troubleshoot?
> > 
> > Well you could start by mentioning your version of Fedora and what
> > kernel you have. Otherwise it's hard to see how anyone can help
> > you.
> 
> That's true. Sorry, I'm usually better about that.
> 
> This is Fedora 25 with kernel-4.8.14-300.fc25.x86_64 (all the latest
> updates), but it started a few kernels back and I don't recall what
> the
> last working kernel or first failing kernel was.

So adding the requested specifics hasn't helped yet... (Everyone seems
distracted by that other topic. Just thought I'd try to break back
through.)

> 
> 
> > 
> > poc
> 
> -- 
> Matthew Saltzman
> Clemson University Math Sciences
> mjs AT clemson DOT edu
-- 
Matthew Saltzman
Clemson University Math Sciences
mjs AT clemson DOT edu
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Re: Most system update requires system reboot or session restart

[Tom Horsley]

On Tue, 20 Dec 2016 18:23:25 -0500
Matthew Miller wrote:

> Neither systemd nor dnf are to blame -- but wayland is a lot more
> fragile in this regard under the current design.

I'm not using wayland, so that isn't it.
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Re: Most system update requires system reboot or session restart

[Kevin Fenzi]

On Tue, 20 Dec 2016 15:39:08 -0800
Joe Zeff  wrote:

> On 12/20/2016 03:27 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:
> > Depends on which part.
> >
> > You can use dnf repoquery to list duplicates, leaf packages (now
> > "unneeded", which I don't think is an improvement in clarity, but
> > whatever), orphans ("extras", and ditto), unsatisfied deps (formerly
> > "problems", now "unsatisfied" — that one is an improvement).
> >
> > The cleandupes functionality is now "dnf remove --duplicates".  
> 
> That's good to know.  Somehow, upgrades seem to hang on this system
> (but not my laptop) leaving me unable to start a GUI, and with so
> many dupes that I'd have to get a list of them (package-cleanup
> --dupes | grep 
> fcXX> dupes.txt with XX representing the older disty because it
> fcXX> listed   
> both sets) and then clean them up a few at a time by hand.  Not the
> most pleasant task, but doable as long as I've got a simple way to
> get that list.

FYI, If you are looking for a particular dnf command that does something
yum used to do the first place to look is 'man yum2dnf' 
(or https://dnf.readthedocs.io/en/latest/cli_vs_yum.html )

kevin


pgpDcZvYppqZ1.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
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Re: Most system update requires system reboot or session restart

[Sudhir Khanger]

On Wednesday 21 December 2016 7:02:43 AM IST Ed Greshko wrote:
> The bottom line is if someone feels compelled to follow the suggestion that
> you *should* reboot or that "should" is equivalent to *must* then just
> don't apply updates until ready to take the necessary action to *fully*
> apply them.

I think the bottom line is that you are caught between a rock and a hard 
place. Either take the productivity hit by updating and restarting or take the 
security hit by not updating.

-- 
Regards,
Sudhir Khanger,
sudhirkhanger.com.
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Re: OT: Flash on (Linux-Based) Samsung SmartTV

[Doug]

On 12/20/2016 03:30 PM, fred roller wrote:


Or a hdmi/vga cord and use the TV as a monitor. Usually a plug and 
play experience for the tech challenged. Since it already works on his 
pc/laptop should be easy.


Not necessarily. It does not follow that sound will go with the video. 
In Windows it did not--don't know if in Win10 it does, and in Linux, 
depends on the version of Pulse Audio and how lucky you are to find the 
combination of many possibilities. (Works well in Mint 17.3 LTS. Could 
not get it to work in latest version of PCLOS.)


--doug


Fred Roller


On Dec 20, 2016 4:04 PM, "Tim Evans" > wrote:


I'm trying to long-distance-coach a tech-challenged friend on
using his Samsung SmartTV's web browser to view content his Cable
TV service doesn't carry. (This is not trying to get around stuff
without paying--the content, out of area sports, FWIW, is freely
available to watch on his PC.)

When he tries to access the content with the Samsung-embedded
browser, he gets an immediate prompt to upgrade Flash.  Following
the offered links allows access to what is labeled as "Linux" rpm
and/or tgz versions, neither of which will install on the TV. So,
the content won't load.

While I've suggest he do a general upgrade of the TV firmware, in
hopes there's a usable Flash upgrade included, I'm thinking of
pointing him in a different direction--say, a ChromeCast.

Any other suggestions? Thanks.
-- 
Tim Evans   |5 Chestnut Court

443-394-3864|Owings Mills,
MD 21117
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--
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sides.--A.M,Greeley

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Re: Most system update requires system reboot or session restart

[Joe Zeff]

On 12/20/2016 03:27 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:

Depends on which part.

You can use dnf repoquery to list duplicates, leaf packages (now
"unneeded", which I don't think is an improvement in clarity, but
whatever), orphans ("extras", and ditto), unsatisfied deps (formerly
"problems", now "unsatisfied" — that one is an improvement).

The cleandupes functionality is now "dnf remove --duplicates".


That's good to know.  Somehow, upgrades seem to hang on this system (but 
not my laptop) leaving me unable to start a GUI, and with so many dupes 
that I'd have to get a list of them (package-cleanup --dupes | grep 
fcXX> dupes.txt with XX representing the older disty because it listed 
both sets) and then clean them up a few at a time by hand.  Not the most 
pleasant task, but doable as long as I've got a simple way to get that list.

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Re: OT: Flash on (Linux-Based) Samsung SmartTV

[Doug]

On 12/20/2016 03:01 PM, Tim Evans wrote:
I'm trying to long-distance-coach a tech-challenged friend on using 
his Samsung SmartTV's web browser to view content his Cable TV service 
doesn't carry. (This is not trying to get around stuff without 
paying--the content, out of area sports, FWIW, is freely available to 
watch on his PC.)


When he tries to access the content with the Samsung-embedded browser, 
he gets an immediate prompt to upgrade Flash.  Following the offered 
links allows access to what is labeled as "Linux" rpm and/or tgz 
versions, neither of which will install on the TV. So, the content 
won't load.


While I've suggest he do a general upgrade of the TV firmware, in 
hopes there's a usable Flash upgrade included, I'm thinking of 
pointing him in a different direction--say, a ChromeCast.


Any other suggestions? Thanks.
Surely there is a help desk at Samsung TV. His user manual should 
provide a phone number.


--doug

--
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sides.--A.M,Greeley
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Re: Most system update requires system reboot or session restart

[Ed Greshko]

On 12/21/16 06:54, Matthew Miller wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 02:27:48PM -0800, Joe Zeff wrote:
>> The package yum-utils included the program needs-restarting, which
>> would tell you what running programs needed to be restarted because
>> of an update, although it didn't seem to go so far as to tell you
>> that you needed to reboot.  Alas, there doesn't seem to be a dnf
>> version yet, along with several other handy yum utilities that we've
>> lost.
> This thead actually *started* as comments about dnf-plugin-tracer,
> which does exactly that.

Note there is also a "dnf needs-restarting" plugin.

https://dnf-plugins-core.readthedocs.io/en/latest/needs_restarting.html


-- 
You're Welcome Zachary Quinto
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Re: Most system update requires system reboot or session restart

[Matthew Miller]

On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 03:20:43PM -0800, Joe Zeff wrote:
> None, actually.  Due to hardware issues and other distractions my
> desktop is still using F 21, so I still have yum and its utilities
> if needed.  BTW, is there a dnf equivalent to package-cleanup?  I've
> had to use it several times after upgrade issues and would hate to
> lose the functionality.

Depends on which part.

You can use dnf repoquery to list duplicates, leaf packages (now
"unneeded", which I don't think is an improvement in clarity, but
whatever), orphans ("extras", and ditto), unsatisfied deps (formerly
"problems", now "unsatisfied" — that one is an improvement).

The cleandupes functionality is now "dnf remove --duplicates".


-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
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Re: Most system update requires system reboot or session restart

[Matthew Miller]

On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 06:20:37PM -0500, Tom Horsley wrote:
> A far bigger problem that needing to reboot is that
> dnf seems to sometimes wack libraries that are in
> use and make my X session and/or system crash in the middle of
> an update. I never had that happen with yum, but
> I've seen it a couple of times with dnf (though I
> suspect it may have more to do with systemd linking
> in every library on the system rather than being a
> tiny "init" program with no dependencies :-).

Neither systemd nor dnf are to blame -- but wayland is a lot more
fragile in this regard under the current design.

In any case, I've gotten in the habit of running dnf update in a tmux
session as protection against this.

-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
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Re: Most system update requires system reboot or session restart

[Joe Zeff]

On 12/20/2016 02:54 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:

This thead actually*started*  as comments about dnf-plugin-tracer,
which does exactly that.

What other yum utilities are you, at this point, missing?


None, actually.  Due to hardware issues and other distractions my 
desktop is still using F 21, so I still have yum and its utilities if 
needed.  BTW, is there a dnf equivalent to package-cleanup?  I've had to 
use it several times after upgrade issues and would hate to lose the 
functionality.

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Re: Most system update requires system reboot or session restart

[Tom Horsley]

A far bigger problem that needing to reboot is that
dnf seems to sometimes wack libraries that are in
use and make my X session and/or system crash in the middle of
an update. I never had that happen with yum, but
I've seen it a couple of times with dnf (though I
suspect it may have more to do with systemd linking
in every library on the system rather than being a
tiny "init" program with no dependencies :-).
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Re: Most system update requires system reboot or session restart

[Ed Greshko]

On 12/21/16 06:27, Joe Zeff wrote:
> On 12/20/2016 02:14 PM, Rick Stevens wrote:
>> After a significant number of updates, it's probably be a good idea to
>> reboot just to ensure you are using the latest kernel and that any
>> services that were updated have been restarted. How and when that
>> reboot cycle happens is completely up to you. You can ignore it all
>> together if you wish.
>
> The package yum-utils included the program needs-restarting, which would tell 
> you what
> running programs needed to be restarted because of an update, although it 
> didn't seem to
> go so far as to tell you that you needed to reboot.  Alas, there doesn't seem 
> to be a
> dnf version yet, along with several other handy yum utilities that we've lost.
>



The OP already pointed out the existence of the dnf equivalent.  It is the DNF 
tracer
Plugin.  It tells you what processes you *should* restart as well as when you 
*should*
reboot.  It does as good a job at it as "needs-restarting".

The bottom line is if someone feels compelled to follow the suggestion that you 
*should*
reboot or that "should" is equivalent to *must* then just don't apply updates 
until ready
to take the necessary action to *fully* apply them.

An additional suggestion would be for some folks to disable notifications that 
updates are
available.  I know several people that upon seeing the icon appear in their 
tray will drop
what they are doing to update their systems as they are under the impression 
that failure
to do so will result in dire consequences.


-- 
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Re: Most system update requires system reboot or session restart

[Matthew Miller]

On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 02:27:48PM -0800, Joe Zeff wrote:
> The package yum-utils included the program needs-restarting, which
> would tell you what running programs needed to be restarted because
> of an update, although it didn't seem to go so far as to tell you
> that you needed to reboot.  Alas, there doesn't seem to be a dnf
> version yet, along with several other handy yum utilities that we've
> lost.

This thead actually *started* as comments about dnf-plugin-tracer,
which does exactly that.

What other yum utilities are you, at this point, missing?


-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
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Re: Most system update requires system reboot or session restart

[Joe Zeff]

On 12/20/2016 02:14 PM, Rick Stevens wrote:

After a significant number of updates, it's probably be a good idea to
reboot just to ensure you are using the latest kernel and that any
services that were updated have been restarted. How and when that
reboot cycle happens is completely up to you. You can ignore it all
together if you wish.


The package yum-utils included the program needs-restarting, which would 
tell you what running programs needed to be restarted because of an 
update, although it didn't seem to go so far as to tell you that you 
needed to reboot.  Alas, there doesn't seem to be a dnf version yet, 
along with several other handy yum utilities that we've lost.

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Re: Most system update requires system reboot or session restart

[Rick Stevens]

On 12/20/2016 01:07 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
> On 12/20/2016 12:26 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:
>> On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 11:15:19AM -0800, Joe Zeff wrote:
>>> And some of us are using distributed computing, such as BOINC and
>>> don't like interrupting the work.
>>
>> Aren't these things set up to be resiliant to nodes going in and out?
>>
> 
> Yes, of course they are.  However, every time you reboot they have to
> shut themselves down, wait until the system comes up and then restart.
> (Systemd treats them as services, so they're running before you get your
> logon screen.)  Many of us consider that a waste of time.  My system
> only gets rebooted for kernel upgrades and only shuts down for hardware
> issues or power outages.  Linux is designed to run 24/7 and I see no
> reason not to keep my desktop ready to use at a moment's notice.  YMMV,
> of course, and presumably does.

I think the point here is that you don't _have_ to _reboot_ except to
use a newer kernel. The actual programs (or services) can be restarted
as needed (or not). Now, some updates will force a service restart (if
the service is running) because of some dire security issue or
incompatibility between versions (e.g. some selinux updates, some
journald and systemd updates, etc.), but it's not that common and only
done if there are significant reasons to do a restart and the service
restart will be logged.

After a significant number of updates, it's probably be a good idea to
reboot just to ensure you are using the latest kernel and that any
services that were updated have been restarted. How and when that
reboot cycle happens is completely up to you. You can ignore it all
together if you wish.

Fedora is a very dynamic environment and updates happen a LOT. It is,
essentially, the development environment for RHEL. RHEL (and thus
CentOS) are more stable and have relatively fewer updates over any
given period of time--and then they're generally security related. For
stable, production platforms, use RHEL or CentOS, take the updates and
schedule reboots. With Fedora, you're on the "bleeding edge" and you
WILL, on occasion, get hurt (I guarantee it). It's sorta like Santa told
Ralphie in "A Christmas Story"...

You'll shoot your eye out, kid!

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- AIM/Skype: therps2ICQ: 226437340   Yahoo: origrps2 -
--
-   When in doubt, mumble.   -
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Re: OT: Flash on (Linux-Based) Samsung SmartTV

[fred roller]

Or a hdmi/vga cord and use the TV as a monitor. Usually a plug and play
experience for the tech challenged.  Since it already works on his
pc/laptop should be easy.

Fred Roller

On Dec 20, 2016 4:04 PM, "Tim Evans"  wrote:

> I'm trying to long-distance-coach a tech-challenged friend on using his
> Samsung SmartTV's web browser to view content his Cable TV service doesn't
> carry. (This is not trying to get around stuff without paying--the content,
> out of area sports, FWIW, is freely available to watch on his PC.)
>
> When he tries to access the content with the Samsung-embedded browser, he
> gets an immediate prompt to upgrade Flash.  Following the offered links
> allows access to what is labeled as "Linux" rpm and/or tgz versions,
> neither of which will install on the TV. So, the content won't load.
>
> While I've suggest he do a general upgrade of the TV firmware, in hopes
> there's a usable Flash upgrade included, I'm thinking of pointing him in a
> different direction--say, a ChromeCast.
>
> Any other suggestions? Thanks.
> --
> Tim Evans   |5 Chestnut Court
> 443-394-3864|Owings Mills, MD 21117
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Re: Most system update requires system reboot or session restart

[Joe Zeff]

On 12/20/2016 12:26 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:

On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 11:15:19AM -0800, Joe Zeff wrote:

And some of us are using distributed computing, such as BOINC and
don't like interrupting the work.


Aren't these things set up to be resiliant to nodes going in and out?



Yes, of course they are.  However, every time you reboot they have to 
shut themselves down, wait until the system comes up and then restart. 
(Systemd treats them as services, so they're running before you get your 
logon screen.)  Many of us consider that a waste of time.  My system 
only gets rebooted for kernel upgrades and only shuts down for hardware 
issues or power outages.  Linux is designed to run 24/7 and I see no 
reason not to keep my desktop ready to use at a moment's notice.  YMMV, 
of course, and presumably does.

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OT: Flash on (Linux-Based) Samsung SmartTV

[Tim Evans]

I'm trying to long-distance-coach a tech-challenged friend on using his 
Samsung SmartTV's web browser to view content his Cable TV service 
doesn't carry. (This is not trying to get around stuff without 
paying--the content, out of area sports, FWIW, is freely available to 
watch on his PC.)


When he tries to access the content with the Samsung-embedded browser, 
he gets an immediate prompt to upgrade Flash.  Following the offered 
links allows access to what is labeled as "Linux" rpm and/or tgz 
versions, neither of which will install on the TV. So, the content won't 
load.


While I've suggest he do a general upgrade of the TV firmware, in hopes 
there's a usable Flash upgrade included, I'm thinking of pointing him in 
a different direction--say, a ChromeCast.


Any other suggestions? Thanks.
--
Tim Evans   |5 Chestnut Court
443-394-3864|Owings Mills, MD 21117
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Re: Most system update requires system reboot or session restart

[Matthew Miller]

On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 11:15:19AM -0800, Joe Zeff wrote:
> And some of us are using distributed computing, such as BOINC and
> don't like interrupting the work.

Aren't these things set up to be resiliant to nodes going in and out?

-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
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Re: Most system update requires system reboot or session restart

[Matthew Miller]

On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 04:13:45PM +0530, Sudhir Khanger wrote:
> On my weekly update I notice that I am almost always required to
> either restart the session or reboot the system. Both of these
> options are unacceptable because they require closing 10-15 apps and
> restarting them. That's unnecessary hassle and loss in productivity.

It's an inevitable artifact of the distribution model where we to the
greatest extent possible have only one version of each application and
library.

As a practical matter, you can do online, live updates with dnf and
_not_ restart the various things that need it until its convenient, and
most of the time the application will mostly just work (possibly still
vulnerable to nominally-patched bugs).

Long term, the only practical solution to this is to decouple
application and desktop environment from the system; we're exploring
doing that using OCI (Docker-style) containers and Flatpak. (There are
other *possible* solutions, but I don't see anyone working on them.)

> Fedora's all or none update system also doesn't make it easy. If I
> don't update system then I leave it vulnerable.

Note that with Fedora 26, you will be able to do "dnf upgrade
--security" to get only security-related updates (and any necessary
updated dependencies). This isn't foolproof (sometimes updates turn out
only in retrospect to be security fixes), but should reduce churn. If
you want to live on the bleeding edge, you can enable the new version
of DNF with this feature now on Fedora 24 or Fedora 25 with `sudo dnf
copr enable rpmsoftwaremanagement/dnf-nightly`.





-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
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Re: Most system update requires system reboot or session restart

[Joe Zeff]

On 12/20/2016 11:02 AM, George N. White III wrote:

Yes, some applications have a lengthy setup process and run for days, so
are not appropriate for a system that is rebooted frequently.   At my work,
a window on one day a week is "reserved" for updates and possible reboots,
so users can schedule work to avoid this period.


And some of us are using distributed computing, such as BOINC and don't 
like interrupting the work.

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Re: Most system update requires system reboot or session restart

[George N. White III]

On 20 December 2016 at 14:40, Samuel Sieb  wrote:

> On 12/20/2016 02:43 AM, Sudhir Khanger wrote:
>
>> On my weekly update I notice that I am almost always required to either
>> restart the session or reboot the system. Both of these options are
>> unacceptable because they require closing 10-15 apps and restarting
>> them. That's unnecessary hassle and loss in productivity.
>>
>
Yes, some applications have a lengthy setup process and run for days, so
are not appropriate for a system that is rebooted frequently.   At my work,
a window on one day a week is "reserved" for updates and possible reboots,
so users can schedule work to avoid this period.


> Fedora's all or none update system also doesn't make it easy. If I don't
>> update system then I leave it vulnerable.
>>
>> How would that be different on any other distribution?  It's not all or
> none.  You can choose which updates you want to get and you don't have to
> reboot if you don't want to.  Look at the list of updates and decide if you
> want to reboot or just restart a couple of applications.


Someone with appropriate knowledge of the updates and the associated risks
needs to decide which ones need to be applied ASAP and which can wait.
Few users are in a position to do this, so in practice updates are often
all or none.

The leading edge nature of fedora implies a higher rate of changes.
Distros like Linux MINT put priority on stability, and try to keep reboots
down to important security fixes.  SL7 does an extra layer of "smoke"
testing before updates are released.

Vulnerability is also a function of your internet exposure.


> I am setting up a work machine and I have to decide if Fedora is
>> appropriate for me or not.
>>
>> Is the tracer plugin faulty or Fedora updates do require restarting
>> session or system very frequently?
>>
>> If the update includes a new kernel version, then you will have to reboot
> to use it.  You can run "dnf updateinfo list security" to see what packages
> are marked as security updates.  For now you will have to manually "dnf
> upgrade " to update those specific packages, but there is a
> feature committed but not released yet that will allow "dnf upgrade
> --security".




-- 
George N. White III 
Head of St. Margarets Bay, Nova Scotia
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Re: Silly mistake. Now I have two 'default routes'.

[Matthew Miller]

On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 08:40:27PM +0200, Rami Rosen wrote:
> It seems to me that the following should do the job:
> ip route del default via 192.168.0.60 dev enp0s9
> I assume that your ssh client has access to 192.168.0.70, which is your new
> gateway.

Yes, this should do it. But, Ron, please note that these are on-the-fly
transient changes. They won't persist across a reboot.

-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
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Re: Most system update requires system reboot or session restart

[Samuel Sieb]

On 12/20/2016 02:43 AM, Sudhir Khanger wrote:

On my weekly update I notice that I am almost always required to either
restart the session or reboot the system. Both of these options are
unacceptable because they require closing 10-15 apps and restarting
them. That's unnecessary hassle and loss in productivity.

Fedora's all or none update system also doesn't make it easy. If I don't
update system then I leave it vulnerable.

How would that be different on any other distribution?  It's not all or 
none.  You can choose which updates you want to get and you don't have 
to reboot if you don't want to.  Look at the list of updates and decide 
if you want to reboot or just restart a couple of applications.



I am setting up a work machine and I have to decide if Fedora is
appropriate for me or not.

Is the tracer plugin faulty or Fedora updates do require restarting
session or system very frequently?

If the update includes a new kernel version, then you will have to 
reboot to use it.  You can run "dnf updateinfo list security" to see 
what packages are marked as security updates.  For now you will have to 
manually "dnf upgrade " to update those specific packages, but 
there is a feature committed but not released yet that will allow "dnf 
upgrade --security".

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Re: Silly mistake. Now I have two 'default routes'.

[Rami Rosen]

Hi,
It seems to me that the following should do the job:
ip route del default via 192.168.0.60 dev enp0s9

I assume that your ssh client has access to 192.168.0.70, which is your new
gateway.

Regards,
Rami Rosen
בתאריך 20 בדצמ 2016 20:21, "Ron Leach"  כתב:

> List, good evening,
>
> I wanted to change a Fedora 24 server's default outgoing route, using CLI
> over a local SSH connection.  I found the ip command, read the man page for
> ip route, and gave the command:
>
> ron # ip route add default via 192.168.0.70 dev enp0s9
>
> The server uses a static IP and its original gateway address was
> 192.168.0.60.  Now I have
>
> ron # ip route show
> default via 192.168.0.70 dev enp0s9
> default via 192.168.0.60 dev enp0s9  proto static  metric 100
> [...]
>
> So I have created two 'default' routes.  I've misunderstood the man page,
> and I thought I'd better ask for some advice before I did any more damage.
>
> I want to reach the situation where the server has only one default route,
> for all traffic, which is to a gateway machine with IP address 192.168.0.70
> .
>
> Should I remove both these entries, and then try 'add'ing a new default
> route?  If so, how ought I remove these entries?
>
> Or is there a better way to correct this mistake?
>
> Grateful for any help,
>
> regards, Ron
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Re: Most system update requires system reboot or session restart

[Bryon Adams]

On 12/20/2016 05:43 AM, Sudhir Khanger wrote:

Hi,

I update my Fedora Plasma desktop on a weekly basis. I have dnf tracer
plugin installed.

On my weekly update I notice that I am almost always required to either
restart the session or reboot the system. Both of these options are
unacceptable because they require closing 10-15 apps and restarting
them. That's unnecessary hassle and loss in productivity.

Fedora's all or none update system also doesn't make it easy. If I don't
update system then I leave it vulnerable.

I am setting up a work machine and I have to decide if Fedora is
appropriate for me or not.

Is the tracer plugin faulty or Fedora updates do require restarting
session or system very frequently?

https://dnf-plugins-extras.readthedocs.io/en/latest/tracer.html

Regards,
Sudhir Khanger,
sudhirkhanger.com.



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You don't HAVE to reboot, but some of the updated applications require 
unloading an loading again. Wouldn't the easy solution be to reboot once 
you're done with work for the week? I personally don't know why people 
leave their computers on forever if it's not a server but that's just 
me. I turn my computer off when I'm done with it.


If you want a slower moving distribution you may want to look at 
something else or just not update as often.

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Silly mistake. Now I have two 'default routes'.

[Ron Leach]

List, good evening,

I wanted to change a Fedora 24 server's default outgoing route, using 
CLI over a local SSH connection.  I found the ip command, read the man 
page for ip route, and gave the command:


ron # ip route add default via 192.168.0.70 dev enp0s9

The server uses a static IP and its original gateway address was 
192.168.0.60.  Now I have


ron # ip route show
default via 192.168.0.70 dev enp0s9
default via 192.168.0.60 dev enp0s9  proto static  metric 100
[...]

So I have created two 'default' routes.  I've misunderstood the man 
page, and I thought I'd better ask for some advice before I did any 
more damage.


I want to reach the situation where the server has only one default 
route, for all traffic, which is to a gateway machine with IP address 
192.168.0.70 .


Should I remove both these entries, and then try 'add'ing a new 
default route?  If so, how ought I remove these entries?


Or is there a better way to correct this mistake?

Grateful for any help,

regards, Ron
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Re: panel locks after upgrade to F25

[Ian Pilcher]

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1399396

--

Ian Pilcher arequip...@gmail.com
 "I grew up before Mark Zuckerberg invented friendship" 

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Most system update requires system reboot or session restart

[Sudhir Khanger]

Hi,



I update my Fedora Plasma desktop on a weekly basis. I have dnf tracer plugin 
installed.



On my weekly update I notice that I am almost always required to either restart 
the session or reboot the system. Both of these options are unacceptable 
because they require closing 10-15 apps and restarting them. That's unnecessary 
hassle and loss in productivity.



Fedora's all or none update system also doesn't make it easy. If I don't update 
system then I leave it vulnerable.



I am setting up a work machine and I have to decide if Fedora is appropriate 
for me or not. 



Is the tracer plugin faulty or Fedora updates do require restarting session or 
system very frequently?



https://dnf-plugins-extras.readthedocs.io/en/latest/tracer.html





Regards,
Sudhir Khanger,
sudhirkhanger.com.




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Re: panel locks after upgrade to F25

[Temlakos]

On 12/20/2016 03:32 AM, Maurizio Marini wrote:

Hello
after upgrade to F25, panel locks randomly.
I have KDE and plasma5.
When it happens CTRL+ALT+F2 and back CTRL+ALT+F1 works for me.
I wonder if I can clear something inside .config, something that is recreated
fresh after logoff and login, to fix the issue
or should I ask on ked mlists?
Many thanx in advance
-m


I have to use the same workaround: switch back and forth between a 
command-line login and X.


Already someone (I forget who) reported this as a bug against Plasma.

Maybe you /should/ take your concern to the KDE mailing list. It helps 
to get advice from all quarters.


In the meantime, rest assured someone is working on the problem, and we 
have a workaround that should keep us up and running.


Temlakos
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Re: Advice needed for "opening a bug by usage of of the bugzilla page"

[Ed Greshko]

On 12/20/16 18:03, Joachim Backes wrote:
> On 12/20/2016 06:39 AM, Ed Greshko wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 12/20/16 13:22, Joachim Backes wrote:
>>> How to write a bug report for bugzilla (installed package not listed as 
>>> fedora component
>>> [This happens if trying to write a BZ for gnome-terminal-nautilus])?
>>
>> If it were me I'd file it under "nautilus-extensions" since the info 
>> states...
>>
>> Description : This package provides a Nautilus extension that adds the 'Open 
>> in
>> : Terminal' option to the right-click context menu in Nautilus.
>>
>
> On my site:
>
> rpm -qi nautilus-extensions
> Name: nautilus-extensions
> Version : 3.22.2
> Release : 1.fc25
> Architecture: x86_64
> Install Date: Wed Dec 14 08:42:03 2016
> Group   : Unspecified
> Size: 77890
> License : LGPLv2+
> Signature   : RSA/SHA256, Mon Dec 12 14:08:25 2016, Key ID 4089d8f2fdb19c98
> Source RPM  : nautilus-3.22.2-1.fc25.src.rpm
> Build Date  : Mon Dec 12 13:42:55 2016
> Build Host  : buildhw-09.phx2.fedoraproject.org
> Relocations : (not relocatable)
> Packager: Fedora Project
> Vendor  : Fedora Project
> URL : https://wiki.gnome.org/Apps/Nautilus
> Summary : Nautilus extensions library
> Description :
> This package provides the libraries used by nautilus extensions.
>
> *** But no <> ***
>
> AND
>
> rpm -qi gnome-terminal-nautilus
> Name: gnome-terminal-nautilus
> Version : 3.22.1
> Release : 2.fc25
> Architecture: x86_64
> Install Date: Fri Dec 16 18:32:57 2016
> Group   : Unspecified
> Size: 76057
> License : GPLv3+ and GFDL
> Signature   : RSA/SHA256, Thu Dec 15 16:56:55 2016, Key ID 4089d8f2fdb19c98
> Source RPM  : gnome-terminal-3.22.1-2.fc25.src.rpm
> Build Date  : Thu Dec 15 16:20:49 2016
> Build Host  : buildvm-29.phx2.fedoraproject.org
> Relocations : (not relocatable)
> Packager: Fedora Project
> Vendor  : Fedora Project
> URL : http://www.gnome.org/
> Summary : GNOME Terminal extension for Nautilus
> Description :
> This package provides a Nautilus extension that adds the 'Open in Terminal' 
> option to
> the right-click context menu in Nautilus.
>
>

My "suggestion" was more of a guess.

I'd go with what Samuel had to say.  He actually did the research.  :-)

FWIW, even if you file it under the wrong product the person reviewing it will 
"re-gift"
it to the proper package.  Heaven knows I've done that before.  :-)


-- 
You're Welcome Zachary Quinto
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Re: Advice needed for "opening a bug by usage of of the bugzilla page"

[Joachim Backes]

On 12/20/2016 06:39 AM, Ed Greshko wrote:



On 12/20/16 13:22, Joachim Backes wrote:

How to write a bug report for bugzilla (installed package not listed as fedora 
component
[This happens if trying to write a BZ for gnome-terminal-nautilus])?


If it were me I'd file it under "nautilus-extensions" since the info states...

Description : This package provides a Nautilus extension that adds the 'Open in
: Terminal' option to the right-click context menu in Nautilus.



On my site:

rpm -qi nautilus-extensions
Name: nautilus-extensions
Version : 3.22.2
Release : 1.fc25
Architecture: x86_64
Install Date: Wed Dec 14 08:42:03 2016
Group   : Unspecified
Size: 77890
License : LGPLv2+
Signature   : RSA/SHA256, Mon Dec 12 14:08:25 2016, Key ID 4089d8f2fdb19c98
Source RPM  : nautilus-3.22.2-1.fc25.src.rpm
Build Date  : Mon Dec 12 13:42:55 2016
Build Host  : buildhw-09.phx2.fedoraproject.org
Relocations : (not relocatable)
Packager: Fedora Project
Vendor  : Fedora Project
URL : https://wiki.gnome.org/Apps/Nautilus
Summary : Nautilus extensions library
Description :
This package provides the libraries used by nautilus extensions.

*** But no <> ***

AND

rpm -qi gnome-terminal-nautilus
Name: gnome-terminal-nautilus
Version : 3.22.1
Release : 2.fc25
Architecture: x86_64
Install Date: Fri Dec 16 18:32:57 2016
Group   : Unspecified
Size: 76057
License : GPLv3+ and GFDL
Signature   : RSA/SHA256, Thu Dec 15 16:56:55 2016, Key ID 4089d8f2fdb19c98
Source RPM  : gnome-terminal-3.22.1-2.fc25.src.rpm
Build Date  : Thu Dec 15 16:20:49 2016
Build Host  : buildvm-29.phx2.fedoraproject.org
Relocations : (not relocatable)
Packager: Fedora Project
Vendor  : Fedora Project
URL : http://www.gnome.org/
Summary : GNOME Terminal extension for Nautilus
Description :
This package provides a Nautilus extension that adds the 'Open in 
Terminal' option to the right-click context menu in Nautilus.





Kind regards

Joachim Backes

--

Fedora release 25 (Twenty Five)
Kernel-4.8.15-300.fc25.x86_64


Joachim Backes 
https://www-user.rhrk.uni-kl.de/~backes/
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panel locks after upgrade to F25

[Maurizio Marini]

Hello
after upgrade to F25, panel locks randomly.
I have KDE and plasma5.
When it happens CTRL+ALT+F2 and back CTRL+ALT+F1 works for me.
I wonder if I can clear something inside .config, something that is recreated
fresh after logoff and login, to fix the issue
or should I ask on ked mlists?
Many thanx in advance
-m


smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
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