Re: Etiquette and changing of threads
Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net writes: Am 16.07.2013 03:49, schrieb lee: Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net writes: the real problem is thread-view Perhaps you'd be happier with a different MUA. You seem to be using something similar to the MUA built into seamonkey. I have always found it totally unsuited for managing more than a very few mails. i manage around 500 messages per day with thunderbird Oh I wouldn't even think of trying that. with no problem, it's not thunderbirds fault making large threads which should be splitted in own ones Obviously, there is a problem with the tree view in thunderbird. Otherwise you'd be able to read threads just fine. I have seen much larger threads on nntp servers than in this mailing list, and there were no problems to display them with gnus. Have you tried gnus or mutt? and migrate a mail-arhcive with around 2,000,000 messages? thanks - no! Thunderbird uses mbox or something? IIRC, gnus and mutt can both use mbox, and you wouldn't really have to migrate. In case you would migrate, it would take quite a while to migrate the mails to nnmaildir with gnus. It would be incredibly fast with mutt. You could just leave them as they are and use nnmaildir (or maildir if you use mutt) only for the new ones. You got nothing to lose, so why not give gnus or mutt a try. You can always duplicate the incoming mails so you still have them in thunderbird as well. If you were storing them in maildirs, you could even run several MUAs on the same mail folders at the same time --- both mutt and gnus can do that. I think once you get used to either gnus or mutt, you'll love them. They are like made for you. -- Object-oriented programming languages aren't completely convinced that you should be allowed to do anything with functions. http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2006/08/01.html -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Etiquette and changing of threads
Am 16.07.2013 03:49, schrieb lee: Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net writes: the real problem is thread-view Perhaps you'd be happier with a different MUA. You seem to be using something similar to the MUA built into seamonkey. I have always found it totally unsuited for managing more than a very few mails. i manage around 500 messages per day with thunderbird with no problem, it's not thunderbirds fault making large threads which should be splitted in own ones Have you tried gnus or mutt? and migrate a mail-arhcive with around 2,000,000 messages? thanks - no! signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: cultural differences affecting communication (Re: Etiquette and changing of threads)
How do you let go of your cultural and other frames of reference and yet figure out what a subject at hand is? I don't think that's possible and that it's only possible to be more or less aware of these factors and to try to somehow deal with them. Still, being a German, you can say A to someone English or American, and they understand something totally different like X or Z, and none of them is aware of the misunderstanding before it leads to problems. It's the same the other way round and probably a problem that can always come up when ppl from different countries and cultures try to talk to each other. Haven't you had something like this when you lived in Korea? Actually I was living in the US, but I was married to a Korean lady. Yes, that happens a lot. But communications is a two way street, not a dictatorship. One has to make some effort to be sure of the topic, requirements and so forth. When you go to another site to work on a problem someone has reported, don't you do some basic background check to ensure that the problem as described is what you perceived? For example reconfiguring a mail client, even though the customer has told you he configured it correctly, when there is a problem sending or receiving email? Standard communications takes just as much effort even when two people share the same background, have the same goals and speak the same language. It just requires a bit more effort to make sure one understands when there are cultural and language differences. Regards, Les H -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Etiquette and changing of threads
Reindl Harald wrote: Am 15.07.2013 20:10, schrieb Robert Holtzman: On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 10:55:15PM -0300, Fernando Lozano wrote: Hi Reindl, first: my intention is *not* to start another epic thread since i am always the unholy prick here after i lose patience maybe others should also reconsider *not* hijacking threads by Thanks for clarification. Changing the subject (and keeping the original one with a [Re:]) is standard procedures in many mailing lists, I didn't know it was not accepted here. My apologies. Re: means the message is a reply to a previous post. If the subject line on the same thread is changed then [was..] is appended. What lists are you referring to? the real problem is thread-view you have to open a growing tree-structure and look if there is something related to the topic you are interested in if it is a new thread you can have it in the archive but closed and only open the ones you are currently interested in and the next problem that over time it becomes unclear to what people responded - the original thread or subthreads, that feels like if you have a tech meeting with 10 people and then one marketing guy steps in the room and fire his statements Well my reader has delete subthread so I can at least take a whack at it. -- Bill Davidsen david...@tmr.com We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the machinations of the wicked. - from Slashdot -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Etiquette and changing of threads
lee wrote: Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net writes: the real problem is thread-view Perhaps you'd be happier with a different MUA. You seem to be using something similar to the MUA built into seamonkey. I have always found it totally unsuited for managing more than a very few mails. Yes, Seamonkey has watched threads, ignore either thread or subthreads,and has message filters of many capabilities. Mind you, the filters do benefit from a bit of talent in programming or they will eat your cpu on a busy machine, but it's a great MUA. I'm writing on it now. -- Bill Davidsen david...@tmr.com We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the machinations of the wicked. - from Slashdot -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Etiquette and changing of threads
Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Mon, 2013-07-15 at 21:40 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote: Just think about what you'd tell me, if I tell you: You must do it this way ... You'd likely take it as a rudity. However, this is the 1:1 translation of what Germans would use to express what US Americans are likely to express as You may want to consider doing it this way ... A phrase I would take as pretended politeness, when being used in German, My ignorance of German is almost perfect, but I'm fluent in Spanish. There one has the alternative of saying hay que hacerlo así (roughly one should do it this way) which is more neutral than a direct reference to the other speaker and wouldn't normally be offensive. This also works similarly in English. You may consider, ... is to my mind a specifically American idiom which I've mostly seen in mailing lists, though I have caught myself using it. I have no problem with I would try or have you considered. I have had several people tell me I was doing things the wrong way because I didn't give a long explanation of why what I was doing is the only acceptable solution. I realize I don't always have all the context, so being a bit polite rather than assuming that (a) I have the only solution, and (b) I have the right to ignore their question and provide an alternate solution instead of providing the solution they requested. -- Bill Davidsen david...@tmr.com We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the machinations of the wicked. - from Slashdot -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Etiquette and changing of threads
lee wrote: Bill Davidsen david...@tmr.com writes: lee wrote: Queue your posts before sending them. I tried that, and wound up not remembering to post afterword. It sounds better than it works, at least for me. It can happen --- since I got used to it, I don't forget it anymore. Even if I do, nothing terrible happens. Some threads happen to diverge into, sometimes multiple, different directions, with many posters becoming inspired to come forward with what they are interested in. When this happens, it doesn't mean that the thread has been hijacked. That's your opinion, I can agree if the diversion is a subtopic of the original post, otherwise I disagree. Let's take the 'Schrödingers' Cat' thread as an example. Does it constitute hijacking the thread when someone asks why it's Schrödingers' rather than Schrödingers? Implementation details of a relevant answer are fine, too often a How do I question results in a you want to do something less answer, which is (a) often not helpful, and (b) comes with the assumption that the original poster asked the wrong question, or is using a wrong approach, usually without understanding the reason why an approach has been chosen. That isn't hijacking, or is it? I have had some success with starting a post with a statement that I'm not seeking alternate solution, just information on how to make the chosen approach work. I don't do it unless I'm really closed to alternatives, I have had a fair number of good alternatives brought to my attention. And you don't like it when alternatives are brought to your attention because of (a) and (b)? More to save someone the effort of writing a long response intended to help, but not actually useful. If there's a reason to use the solution I chose, everyone benefits from useful answers, or requests for context, why I chose to do it the way I did. I'm often happy to have any solution, but there are times when it must go the hard way. -- Bill Davidsen david...@tmr.com We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the machinations of the wicked. - from Slashdot -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Etiquette and changing of threads
On Mon, 2013-07-15 at 06:27 +0200, lee wrote: You need to realise that native speakers of English have a tendency to be overly polite and to expect others to be just as overly polite as they are, in ways non-native speakers of English mostly cannot fathom (at least Germans cannot). At the same time, non-native speakers of English (at least Germans) can come across to native speakers of English as utterly rude, without any intention to come across like that and without knowing that they do. --- For example, what I just wrote is probably somewhat rude, without me intending to be. It's because I'm German, and the totally different mindsets of English and German collide, which would make it extremely complicated and requiring a great deal of elaboration to put it in such a way that it doesn't seem rude. I think you're over-generalizing here. In my experience German speakers are just as polite as English speakers, especially if their English is as good as yours. Possibly some may come across as rude when their English is less good, as when one is learning a language one tends to say things more bluntly due to feeling more restricted, but it can also work the other way, when the beginner appears to be overly formal. Idiomatic expression and fleeting cultural references account for a huge proportion of everyday speech and a lot of that bleeds into written communication. In my experience, national stereotypes are an unreliable guide in everyday life, though one thing that does seem to be different from one culture to another is the kind of thing they find funny. But that's another story. poc -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Etiquette and changing of threads
On Mon, 2013-07-15 at 10:47 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Mon, 2013-07-15 at 06:27 +0200, lee wrote: You need to realise that native speakers of English have a tendency to be overly polite and to expect others to be just as overly polite as they are, in ways non-native speakers of English mostly cannot fathom (at least Germans cannot). At the same time, non-native speakers of English (at least Germans) can come across to native speakers of English as utterly rude, without any intention to come across like that and without knowing that they do. --- For example, what I just wrote is probably somewhat rude, without me intending to be. It's because I'm German, and the totally different mindsets of English and German collide, which would make it extremely complicated and requiring a great deal of elaboration to put it in such a way that it doesn't seem rude. I think you're over-generalizing here. In my experience German speakers are just as polite as English speakers, especially if their English is as good as yours. Possibly some may come across as rude when their English is less good, as when one is learning a language one tends to say things more bluntly due to feeling more restricted, but it can also work the other way, when the beginner appears to be overly formal. Idiomatic expression and fleeting cultural references account for a huge proportion of everyday speech and a lot of that bleeds into written communication. In my experience, national stereotypes are an unreliable guide in everyday life, though one thing that does seem to be different from one culture to another is the kind of thing they find funny. But that's another story. poc Culture is absorbed. I spent many years in Asia. When I returned to the United States, I would go to parties, and whoever I spoke with and I would move slowly across the room and eventually no one was talking to me. An Asian friend and I were talking later and I mentioned this to him. He told me that in Asia people stand close, within a few inches. The culture's personal bubble is very small. American's personal bubble is a couple of feet. So I would get close, the person would move away, I would get close and we would slowly move across the room. People felt uncomfortable with me without knowing exactly why. Once I knew this I could adapt, or use it as needed. In the same way, Americans have basically only three pronouns and every other method of addressing someone comes as public, personal, or formal. But in many languages, there are different ways to talk about distinct family members, for example Korea in formal language has specific names for first born son, or grandmother on the mothers side, or grandfather on each side. At least that is what I was told. Along with that goes a real value of deference depending on the level of social status within the family. In business there were three levels, bosses where formal language and deference are shown, peers where one talks slightly less formally, and subordinates where a deference was shown in public. What happens privately I don't know. These frames of reference and culture impact how one perceives what is said. Much or most of face to face speaking is the unspoken language of eye contact, facial expression, posture, tone and word choice, written communication uses punctuation, verb, subject, object, adjective and adverb placement as well as word choice are to written communication. Each of these is impacted by culture. Whether we know it or not, these things affect our perception of the speaker or writer, often to the point of obscuring the intended message. It is difficult, but necessary to let go of some of these and concentrate on the subject in intercultural communication. Regards, Les H -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Etiquette and changing of threads
On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 10:55:15PM -0300, Fernando Lozano wrote: Hi Reindl, first: my intention is *not* to start another epic thread since i am always the unholy prick here after i lose patience maybe others should also reconsider *not* hijacking threads by Thanks for clarification. Changing the subject (and keeping the original one with a [Re:]) is standard procedures in many mailing lists, I didn't know it was not accepted here. My apologies. Re: means the message is a reply to a previous post. If the subject line on the same thread is changed then [was..] is appended. What lists are you referring to? -- Bob Holtzman If you think you're getting free lunch, check the price of the beer. Key ID: 8D549279 signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Etiquette and changing of threads
lee wrote: Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net writes: Queue your posts before sending them. After reading and/or writing some more posts while going through the list, you may have changed your mind and may be glad you queued what you've been writing. I tried that, and wound up not remembering to post afterword. It sounds better than it works, at least for me. Some threads happen to diverge into, sometimes multiple, different directions, with many posters becoming inspired to come forward with what they are interested in. When this happens, it doesn't mean that the thread has been hijacked. That's your opinion, I can agree if the diversion is a subtopic of the original post, otherwise I disagree. Implementation details of a relevant answer are fine, too often a How do I question results in a you want to do something less answer, which is (a) often not helpful, and (b) comes with the assumption that the original poster asked the wrong question, or is using a wrong approach, usually without understanding the reason why an approach has been chosen. if people call me rude, short-temperedly, an asshole and whatelse the thread below explains perfectly how that comes if a simple one-line question ends in an epic off-topic discussion You occasionally drop pearls information which are highly useful, so you are not an asshole. All the other things, totally agree, I would add egotistical, arrogant, and a few other things under the whatever blanket category. The most simple questions tend to be the most difficult ones to answer. Perhaps that's because they are the most difficult ones to ask. However, I think I know what you mean. I don't know of anything you could do about it that simple questions can lead to discussions which can make it difficult not to lose your patience. I have had some success with starting a post with a statement that I'm not seeking alternate solution, just information on how to make the chosen approach work. I don't do it unless I'm really closed to alternatives, I have had a fair number of good alternatives brought to my attention. -- Bill Davidsen david...@tmr.com We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the machinations of the wicked. - from Slashdot -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Etiquette and changing of threads
Les Howell wrote: On Mon, 2013-07-15 at 10:47 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Mon, 2013-07-15 at 06:27 +0200, lee wrote: You need to realise that native speakers of English have a tendency to be overly polite and to expect others to be just as overly polite as they are, in ways non-native speakers of English mostly cannot fathom (at least Germans cannot). At the same time, non-native speakers of English (at least Germans) can come across to native speakers of English as utterly rude, without any intention to come across like that and without knowing that they do. --- For example, what I just wrote is probably somewhat rude, without me intending to be. It's because I'm German, and the totally different mindsets of English and German collide, which would make it extremely complicated and requiring a great deal of elaboration to put it in such a way that it doesn't seem rude. I think you're over-generalizing here. In my experience German speakers are just as polite as English speakers, especially if their English is as good as yours. Possibly some may come across as rude when their English is less good, as when one is learning a language one tends to say things more bluntly due to feeling more restricted, but it can also work the other way, when the beginner appears to be overly formal. Idiomatic expression and fleeting cultural references account for a huge proportion of everyday speech and a lot of that bleeds into written communication. In my experience, national stereotypes are an unreliable guide in everyday life, though one thing that does seem to be different from one culture to another is the kind of thing they find funny. But that's another story. poc Culture is absorbed. I spent many years in Asia. When I returned to the United States, I would go to parties, and whoever I spoke with and I would move slowly across the room and eventually no one was talking to me. An Asian friend and I were talking later and I mentioned this to him. He told me that in Asia people stand close, within a few inches. The culture's personal bubble is very small. American's personal bubble is a couple of feet. So I would get close, the person would move away, I would get close and we would slowly move across the room. People felt uncomfortable with me without knowing exactly why. Once I knew this I could adapt, or use it as needed. In the same way, Americans have basically only three pronouns and every other method of addressing someone comes as public, personal, or formal. But in many languages, there are different ways to talk about distinct family members, for example Korea in formal language has specific names for first born son, or grandmother on the mothers side, or grandfather on each side. At least that is what I was told. Interesting that it happens in the nouns, Latin had a lot more verb tenses, I vaguely remember a set of pluperfect tenses of verbs, although neither the words nor the rules for using the tenses. -- Bill Davidsen david...@tmr.com We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the machinations of the wicked. - from Slashdot -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Etiquette and changing of threads
On 07/15/2013 11:47 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Mon, 2013-07-15 at 06:27 +0200, lee wrote: You need to realise that native speakers of English have a tendency to be overly polite and to expect others to be just as overly polite as they are, in ways non-native speakers of English mostly cannot fathom (at least Germans cannot). At the same time, non-native speakers of English (at least Germans) can come across to native speakers of English as utterly rude, without any intention to come across like that and without knowing that they do. --- For example, what I just wrote is probably somewhat rude, without me intending to be. It's because I'm German, and the totally different mindsets of English and German collide, which would make it extremely complicated and requiring a great deal of elaboration to put it in such a way that it doesn't seem rude. I think you're over-generalizing here. No, I (German) disagree. There are many substantial differences between German and other cultures, as well as in languages. In my experience German speakers are just as polite as English speakers, especially if their English is as good as yours. Well, normally, nobody is intentionally rude in face-to-face communications. Possibly some may come across as rude when their English is less good, as when one is learning a language one tends to say things more bluntly due to feeling more restricted, but it can also work the other way, when the beginner appears to be overly formal. Idiomatic expression and fleeting cultural references account for a huge proportion of everyday speech and a lot of that bleeds into written communication. This is only partially true. The German language tends to be a much more direct language than (esp. American) English. This reflects in many everyday situations and fixed expressions/terms/idioms. Sometimes, these sneak through into foreign languages, which native speakers of this language interpret as rudities rsp. (the converse view) as pretended politeness. Just think about what you'd tell me, if I tell you: You must do it this way ... You'd likely take it as a rudity. However, this is the 1:1 translation of what Germans would use to express what US Americans are likely to express as You may want to consider doing it this way ... A phrase I would take as pretended politeness, when being used in German, Ralf -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Etiquette and changing of threads
On 07/15/2013 12:40 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: Just think about what you'd tell me, if I tell you: You must do it this way ... You'd likely take it as a rudity. No, at least I wouldn't. Now, I'd probably consider it as rude if you said, Listen, stupid, this is the way you have to do it. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Etiquette and changing of threads
Am 15.07.2013 20:10, schrieb Robert Holtzman: On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 10:55:15PM -0300, Fernando Lozano wrote: Hi Reindl, first: my intention is *not* to start another epic thread since i am always the unholy prick here after i lose patience maybe others should also reconsider *not* hijacking threads by Thanks for clarification. Changing the subject (and keeping the original one with a [Re:]) is standard procedures in many mailing lists, I didn't know it was not accepted here. My apologies. Re: means the message is a reply to a previous post. If the subject line on the same thread is changed then [was..] is appended. What lists are you referring to? the real problem is thread-view you have to open a growing tree-structure and look if there is something related to the topic you are interested in if it is a new thread you can have it in the archive but closed and only open the ones you are currently interested in and the next problem that over time it becomes unclear to what people responded - the original thread or subthreads, that feels like if you have a tech meeting with 10 people and then one marketing guy steps in the room and fire his statements signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
cultural differences affecting communication (Re: Etiquette and changing of threads)
Les Howell hlhow...@pacbell.net writes: Culture is absorbed. [...] These frames of reference and culture impact how one perceives what is said. Much or most of face to face speaking is the unspoken language of eye contact, facial expression, posture, tone and word choice, written communication uses punctuation, verb, subject, object, adjective and adverb placement as well as word choice are to written communication. Each of these is impacted by culture. Whether we know it or not, these things affect our perception of the speaker or writer, often to the point of obscuring the intended message. It is difficult, but necessary to let go of some of these and concentrate on the subject in intercultural communication. How do you let go of your cultural and other frames of reference and yet figure out what a subject at hand is? I don't think that's possible and that it's only possible to be more or less aware of these factors and to try to somehow deal with them. Still, being a German, you can say A to someone English or American, and they understand something totally different like X or Z, and none of them is aware of the misunderstanding before it leads to problems. It's the same the other way round and probably a problem that can always come up when ppl from different countries and cultures try to talk to each other. Haven't you had something like this when you lived in Korea? -- Fedora release 19 (Schrödinger’s Cat) -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Etiquette and changing of threads
On Mon, 15 Jul 2013, Reindl Harald wrote: and the next problem that over time it becomes unclear to what people responded - the original thread or subthreads, that feels like if you have a tech meeting with 10 people and then one marketing guy steps in the room and fire his statements Not if the subject line was changed appropriately. -- Michael henne...@web.cs.ndsu.nodak.edu Nothing says it like words if you know how to use them. -- the Professional Organization of English Majors -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Etiquette and changing of threads
Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net writes: the real problem is thread-view Perhaps you'd be happier with a different MUA. You seem to be using something similar to the MUA built into seamonkey. I have always found it totally unsuited for managing more than a very few mails. Have you tried gnus or mutt? -- Fedora release 19 (Schrödinger’s Cat) -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Etiquette and changing of threads
Bill Davidsen david...@tmr.com writes: lee wrote: Queue your posts before sending them. I tried that, and wound up not remembering to post afterword. It sounds better than it works, at least for me. It can happen --- since I got used to it, I don't forget it anymore. Even if I do, nothing terrible happens. Some threads happen to diverge into, sometimes multiple, different directions, with many posters becoming inspired to come forward with what they are interested in. When this happens, it doesn't mean that the thread has been hijacked. That's your opinion, I can agree if the diversion is a subtopic of the original post, otherwise I disagree. Let's take the 'Schrödingers' Cat' thread as an example. Does it constitute hijacking the thread when someone asks why it's Schrödingers' rather than Schrödingers? Implementation details of a relevant answer are fine, too often a How do I question results in a you want to do something less answer, which is (a) often not helpful, and (b) comes with the assumption that the original poster asked the wrong question, or is using a wrong approach, usually without understanding the reason why an approach has been chosen. That isn't hijacking, or is it? I have had some success with starting a post with a statement that I'm not seeking alternate solution, just information on how to make the chosen approach work. I don't do it unless I'm really closed to alternatives, I have had a fair number of good alternatives brought to my attention. And you don't like it when alternatives are brought to your attention because of (a) and (b)? -- Fedora release 19 (Schrödinger’s Cat) -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Etiquette and changing of threads
Hi Reindl, first: my intention is *not* to start another epic thread since i am always the unholy prick here after i lose patience maybe others should also reconsider *not* hijacking threads by Thanks for clarification. Changing the subject (and keeping the original one with a [Re:]) is standard procedures in many mailing lists, I didn't know it was not accepted here. My apologies. []s, Fernando Lozano -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Etiquette and changing of threads
Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net writes: first: my intention is *not* to start another epic thread What is your intention? since i am always the unholy prick here after i lose patience Don't lose patience. If you don't like someones posts, put the author into your score file and have their posts scored down (or use whatever equivalent means your MUA provides you with), or just ignore them. Queue your posts before sending them. After reading and/or writing some more posts while going through the list, you may have changed your mind and may be glad you queued what you've been writing. maybe others should also reconsider *not* hijacking threads by * change the subject in a reply which is *uneccaptable* especially if the subjet contained the initial question because all following replies inherit the change It is *unacceptable* when someone doesn't use capital letters where they should be used. It makes the authors' posts harder to read, and it can be taken as a sign that their author doesn't care whether anyone reads them or not --- which then raises the question why the author writes them in the first place. Excessive use of emphazitions doesn't make posts easier to read. Despite removing the question a post was written to ask isn't nice, it may be a good idea to write posts in such a way that changing the posts subjects is possible without losing the contents (the question asked) of the post. * and later even change a thread with a *clear* question in a complete different direction and starting their own proposals Some threads happen to diverge into, sometimes multiple, different directions, with many posters becoming inspired to come forward with what they are interested in. When this happens, it doesn't mean that the thread has been hijacked. It can as well indicate that a vital discussion is going on many people are interested in and which involves many aspects. It is good etiquette to change the subject of follow-ups to indicate that the discussion has taken a new direction for instances when that is so. The original poster is not required to follow every branch of the discussion they have started. * explain the world that it needs something in a evangelic style which is my decision as admin and not my question You prefer it when people are overly blunt? ;) You need to realise that native speakers of English have a tendency to be overly polite and to expect others to be just as overly polite as they are, in ways non-native speakers of English mostly cannot fathom (at least Germans cannot). At the same time, non-native speakers of English (at least Germans) can come across to native speakers of English as utterly rude, without any intention to come across like that and without knowing that they do. --- For example, what I just wrote is probably somewhat rude, without me intending to be. It's because I'm German, and the totally different mindsets of English and German collide, which would make it extremely complicated and requiring a great deal of elaboration to put it in such a way that it doesn't seem rude. * in general: *do not* change subjects on mailing-lists if you intentionally change the direction start your own thread Doing that has an unfortunate tendency of extinguishing even the most interesting discussions. if people call me rude, short-temperedly, an asshole and whatelse the thread below explains perfectly how that comes if a simple one-line question ends in an epic off-topic discussion The most simple questions tend to be the most difficult ones to answer. Perhaps that's because they are the most difficult ones to ask. However, I think I know what you mean. I don't know of anything you could do about it that simple questions can lead to discussions which can make it difficult not to lose your patience. Yet mailing lists aren't so fast paced that they don't give you time to calm down. -- Fedora release 19 (Schrödinger’s Cat) -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
