Re: Five Things in Fedora This Week (2014-04-01)
On Wed, 02 Apr 2014 11:04:00 -0400, Rahul Sundaram wrote: Reiterating doesn't help much when people jump to conclusions rather than read through the details which are widely available online but in any case, the compatibility layer is primary designed for running X apps that haven't migrated over [] Don't give up! It does help a lot for those of us who make serious efforts to understand what's going on, despite a lack of CS training. It helps to see the same thing explained in different ways, and especially to see explanations that specify things explicitly which others may be taking for granted. Many thanks for your efforts! -- Beartooth Staffwright, Neo-Redneck Not Quite Clueless Power User Remember I have precious (very precious!) little idea where up is. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Five Things in Fedora This Week (2014-04-01)
On Wed, 02 Apr 2014 21:46:58 +0200, Suvayu Ali wrote: On Tue, Apr 01, 2014 at 04:12:16PM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: [] This is the third installment of this series, and I'm still calibrating a few things. I'm aiming at a wide audience, but I'm not quite sure how much explaining I should do of general Fedora knowledge. Is it helpful for me to (as above), give a quick explanation when I talk about Rawhide, Flock, or FESCo? Or, does that just increase the word count for no reason? Let me know. I think the few words you add, are very welcome. I have been a long time Fedora user, but I still find the universe of Fedora is quite diverse and often needs some introduction. Second! I've been using Fedora since it was RH7, if not RH6, but of Rawhide, Flock, and FESCo I knew only of Rawhide, and not much of that. -- Beartooth Staffwright, Neo-Redneck Not Quite Clueless Power User Remember I have precious (very precious!) little idea where up is. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Five Things in Fedora This Week (2014-04-01)
On Wed, 02 Apr 2014 14:08:12 +0200, lee wrote: Joe Zeff j...@zeff.us writes: It has been established that it is irrelevant what users think. [] Where? How? (if that's not sarcasm) There were long discussions in the Nineties on various lists (particularly ones hosted at RedHat, predecessors to this list) between those who held that Linux was a pretty toy for the Alpha Plus Technoids, a kind of art for art's sake -- and others who held that it had much broader appeal and would bring in many people (especially as the Baby Boomers began to retire) who would want a clean and reliable tool but not care much about technicalia or other fine points. The Boomers must've been retiring in droves by now; but if those discussions ever reached an articulated resolution, I must have missed it somehow. How many of the developers of Gnome 3 are also here? How many of the developers of xfce, mate, and other alternatives to Gnome 3? And, perhaps least, how many are there of us to whom even source code might as well be in cuneiform or hieroglyphics, but who use and have long used our computers heavily? -- Beartooth Staffwright, Neo-Redneck Not Quite Clueless Power User Remember I have precious (very precious!) little idea where up is. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Five Things in Fedora This Week (2014-04-01)
On 04/12/2014 10:34 AM, Beartooth wrote: On Wed, 02 Apr 2014 14:08:12 +0200, lee wrote: Joe Zeffj...@zeff.us writes: It has been established that it is irrelevant what users think. [] Where? How? (if that's not sarcasm) I'm not sure at this point, but I presume that I was referring to Gnome. Back when I was using Gnome 2, I tried using a forum that claimed to be intended for Gnome support. (Sorry, but I don't even have the URL any more.) I say claimed, because for the most part it was a Write Only forum; that is, it was very rare that anybody ever bothered to reply to a request for help, even with a pointer to a better place to ask. However, if your post contained anything that implied that the Gnome devs hadn't gotten everything exactly right, or were unwilling to change something that users didn't like, you'd be flamed. There'd be a storm of replies telling you, in almost hysterical terms, that the Gnome devs never visited this site, that the only way to get their attention was by joining their mailing lists and that even then, they wouldn't care what you thought unless you were actively providing code for at least one Gnome project. And, they'd almost always be phrased in such a way that it was clear that the posters thought you were a horrible person for daring to criticize Gnome or the Wonderful People who were developing it. It was quite clear, to me at least, that the people who posted to that board were afraid that the devs would just walk away if they didn't like what mere users were writing about them. And, their attitude toward third-party extensions to Gnome 3 back when it first came out, did nothing to change my mind: it took quite a while, as I recall, before they were willing to make the slightest effort to avoid breaking them as they updated and upgraded the Gnome Shell. It's possible that this attitude has changed, but I don't use Gnome, I don't try to interact with their devs and all I really know is what I observed back when I did. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Five Things in Fedora This Week (2014-04-01)
HI On Sat, Apr 12, 2014 at 2:00 PM, Joe Zeff wrote: . And, their attitude toward third-party extensions to Gnome 3 back when it first came out, did nothing to change my mind: it took quite a while, as I recall, before they were willing to make the slightest effort to avoid breaking them as they updated and upgraded the Gnome Shell. It's possible that this attitude has changed, but I don't use Gnome, I don't try to interact with their devs and all I really know is what I observed back when I did. The extension breakage had nothing to do with attitude. It was just early days and the interfaces were more fluid. It breaks less because the developers have figured out more details about how to extend it better. There are certainly problems with the approach taken in some cases but neither examples you cite are good instances of that. 1) is a random forum 2) is just immature interfaces Rahul -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Five Things in Fedora This Week (2014-04-01)
I too think this is definitely somethi.g that is NECESSARY! I look forward to anything regarding Fedora ... - Reply message - From: Beartooth bearto...@comcast.net To: users@lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Five Things in Fedora This Week (2014-04-01) Date: Sat, Apr 12, 2014 1:13 pm On Wed, 02 Apr 2014 21:46:58 +0200, Suvayu Ali wrote: On Tue, Apr 01, 2014 at 04:12:16PM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: [] This is the third installment of this series, and I'm still calibrating a few things. I'm aiming at a wide audience, but I'm not quite sure how much explaining I should do of general Fedora knowledge. Is it helpful for me to (as above), give a quick explanation when I talk about Rawhide, Flock, or FESCo? Or, does that just increase the word count for no reason? Let me know. I think the few words you add, are very welcome. I have been a long time Fedora user, but I still find the universe of Fedora is quite diverse and often needs some introduction. Second! I've been using Fedora since it was RH7, if not RH6, but of Rawhide, Flock, and FESCo I knew only of Rawhide, and not much of that. -- Beartooth Staffwright, Neo-Redneck Not Quite Clueless Power User Remember I have precious (very precious!) little idea where up is. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Five Things in Fedora This Week (2014-04-01)
On 2 April 2014 22:25, Rahul Sundaram methe...@gmail.com wrote: Hi On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 4:44 PM, Ian Malone wrote: I would love to spend all my free time reading up about every new project, but it's not going to happen. Sorry typo, I would loathe to... If you care about new projects, you will have to read up on them. If you don't, wait till it gets deployed widely and you will experience it directly. Also the note on performance is based on experience with Mir running over XMir. So no-one is allowed to ask questions on hear and have them answered by anybody who knows what they're talking about? -- imalone http://ibmalone.blogspot.co.uk -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Five Things in Fedora This Week (2014-04-01)
HI On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 3:44 AM, Ian Malone wrote: So no-one is allowed to ask questions on hear and have them answered by anybody who knows what they're talking about? You seemed to have missed the point. I will state it more directly. You are unwilling to spend your free time on learning about new projects which is fine yet you are curious about them and others who would equally value their free time are spending some of it answering your questions. I am pointing out that, it doesn't hurt to acknowledge the other side of it and appreciate that. Rahul -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Five Things in Fedora This Week (2014-04-01)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 04/02/2014 04:44 PM, Ian Malone wrote: On 2 April 2014 16:04, Rahul Sundaram methe...@gmail.com wrote: Hi On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 10:47 AM, Ian Malone wrote: I originally missed this line in Rahul's email: Other apps can use the compatibility layer called XWayland. But did read his reply to Lee: Hm, not really useful when it doesn`t work with existing WMs ... That would be the responsibility of the WM's themselves. Which might have been better reiterating the point about the compatibility layer. Reiterating doesn't help much when people jump to conclusions rather than read through the details which are widely available online but in any case, the compatibility layer is primary designed for running X apps that haven't migrated over but window managers are rather special and tend to use very specific functionality from X rather than rely mostly on abstraction layer via GTK or Qt which themselves can work with Wayland. So they really should be ported over and that is the responsibility of the WM developers. You could in theory be running a full desktop environment over the compatibility layer but it isn't a good idea since performance will likely suffer and it isn't designed for that. I would love to spend all my free time reading up about every new project, but it's not going to happen. Sorry typo, I would loathe to... Since you and Stephen Gallagher have now said somewhat contradictory things I'm left no wiser than when we started. I also don't know whether to take the statement about performance at face value or whether to imagine it's conjecture, since compatibility layers can be quite transparent. (And also since more modern WMs incorporate scripting engines we seem to be at the point where we say performance limits for WM aren't a worry any more.) I don't think we said anything contradictory at all. I pointed out that the Wayland developers are including a compatibility layer called XWayland that provides a backwards-compatible interface for applications and window managers that are designed for X-Windows. Rahul accurately pointed out that the nature of a compatibility wrapper is such that it would never have the same real-world performance as a pure implementation (such as x.org) and as such if window managers (which tend to use far more of the low-level API than applications do) want ideal performance, it is in their best interest to port to the new Wayland code instead of relying on the X-Windows compatibility. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlM9ZycACgkQeiVVYja6o6PT1ACeIA2rS4JxyMLBr93K7wZSuLs/ U4AAnjgfR4QUi+clGEu6aYBPrfEvXztq =rauf -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Five Things in Fedora This Week (2014-04-01)
Allegedly, on or about 02 April 2014, Patrick O'Callaghan sent: Kind of what I was trying to say. Those apps that do talk to X directly, such as window managers, need to be rewritten or use a compatibility layer in the meantime. Gnome must learn how to use the new X, and the Gnome applications use Gnome, they don't use X directly? -- [tim@localhost ~]$ uname -rsvp Linux 3.9.10-100.fc17.x86_64 #1 SMP Sun Jul 14 01:31:27 UTC 2013 x86_64 All mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted, there is no point trying to privately email me, I will only read messages posted to the public lists. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Five Things in Fedora This Week (2014-04-01)
Hi On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 11:29 AM, Tim wrote: Allegedly, on or about 02 April 2014, Patrick O'Callaghan sent: Kind of what I was trying to say. Those apps that do talk to X directly, such as window managers, need to be rewritten or use a compatibility layer in the meantime. Gnome must learn how to use the new X, and the Gnome applications use Gnome, they don't use X directly? More or less. GTK and Clutter abstracts away the differences between X and Wayland for the most part. Very few things like Window Managers and Screenshot apps needs porting over and all apps must be tested with Wayland explicitly to make sure it works ok. Rahul -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Five Things in Fedora This Week (2014-04-01)
On 3 April 2014 14:16, Rahul Sundaram methe...@gmail.com wrote: HI On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 3:44 AM, Ian Malone wrote: So no-one is allowed to ask questions on hear and have them answered by anybody who knows what they're talking about? You seemed to have missed the point. I will state it more directly. You are unwilling to spend your free time on learning about new projects which is fine yet you are curious about them and others who would equally value their free time are spending some of it answering your questions. I am pointing out that, it doesn't hurt to acknowledge the other side of it and appreciate that. Others are coming up with conjectures and presenting them as fact to back up a particular position (the one that it's the responsibility of projects to chase the latest and greatest infrastructure change). I started by saying that it is not great for yet another infrastructure replacement to ignore what's gone on before and expect other projects to change if they are not going to gain functionality. I stand by that. I've now looked into what Xwayland is doing (what little information is available) and if it lives up to its claims it should have little performance hit and I think a WM should be able to run on it, certainly the type of lightweight one that doesn't have much to gain by writing Wayland support. Which means I think the Wayland project is taking a responsible approach. -- imalone http://ibmalone.blogspot.co.uk -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Five Things in Fedora This Week (2014-04-01)
On 3 April 2014 14:50, Stephen Gallagher sgall...@redhat.com wrote: I don't think we said anything contradictory at all. I pointed out that the Wayland developers are including a compatibility layer called XWayland that provides a backwards-compatible interface for applications and window managers that are designed for X-Windows. Rahul accurately pointed out that the nature of a compatibility wrapper is such that it would never have the same real-world performance as a pure implementation (such as x.org) and as such if window managers (which tend to use far more of the low-level API than applications do) want ideal performance, it is in their best interest to port to the new Wayland code instead of relying on the X-Windows compatibility. In their best interest if needed. But you didn't try to claim it's the *responsibility* of projects to change to Wayland. -- imalone http://ibmalone.blogspot.co.uk -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Five Things in Fedora This Week (2014-04-01)
Hi On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 6:16 PM, Ian Malone wrote: Others are coming up with conjectures and presenting them as fact to back up a particular position (the one that it's the responsibility of projects to chase the latest and greatest infrastructure change). There is no conjecture in what I said whatsoever. It is purely a fact. Remember that the original question was Does it work with fvwm? and Hm, not really useful when it doesn`t work with existing WMs I was merely pointing out that Wayland is just a protocol. Adding support for the protocol is done within the window managers and not the other way around. In their best interest if needed. But you didn't try to claim it's the *responsibility* of projects to change to Wayland. Those two things are not in conflict. If they do so, it would their responsibility to do the porting and maintain them. Noone suggested that we should force them. Rahul -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Five Things in Fedora This Week (2014-04-01)
On 04/01/2014 09:49 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: That would be the responsibility of the WM's themselves. WM's have to add support. Not the other way around as you seem to think. Which is why I pointed out that the question was if fvwm works with Wayland, not the other way around. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Five Things in Fedora This Week (2014-04-01)
On 2 April 2014 05:49, Rahul Sundaram methe...@gmail.com wrote: Hi On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 7:52 PM, lee wrote: Hm, not really useful when it doesn`t work with existing WMs ... That would be the responsibility of the WM's themselves. WM's have to add support. Not the other way around as you seem to think. This is a project that aims to replace one of the most longstanding Unix/Linux components (X is older than Linux), but it's everyone else's responsibility to make sure it works? -- imalone http://ibmalone.blogspot.co.uk -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Five Things in Fedora This Week (2014-04-01)
On Wed, 2014-04-02 at 09:03 +0100, Ian Malone wrote: On 2 April 2014 05:49, Rahul Sundaram methe...@gmail.com wrote: Hi On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 7:52 PM, lee wrote: Hm, not really useful when it doesn`t work with existing WMs ... That would be the responsibility of the WM's themselves. WM's have to add support. Not the other way around as you seem to think. This is a project that aims to replace one of the most longstanding Unix/Linux components (X is older than Linux), but it's everyone else's responsibility to make sure it works? AFAIK Wayland is not just a rewrite of the X server and libraries but a redesign of the X protocol, i.e. it's not ABI compatible. So yes, it is up to apps that do low-level X stuff (such as window managers) to change or where possible use a compatibility layer. poc -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Five Things in Fedora This Week (2014-04-01)
On 2 April 2014 10:37, Patrick O'Callaghan pocallag...@gmail.com wrote: but a redesign of the X protocol, i.e. it's not ABI compatible. No, it's not a redesign of anything. It is an entirely new GUI layer which entirely replaces X.11 - as has been done in both Android and Mac OS X and which Canonical are attempting to do with Mir. AIUI the plan is to implement some form of X.11 compatibility on top of it, but few modern *nix apps write direct to X.11 any more - they talk to a toolkit, such as Gtk or Qt or one of the more obscure ones like FLTK. Once those toolkits are ported to Wayland, the apps should, in theory, run just as before, with no need for X.11 or an X-compatible layer. -- Liam Proven * Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk * GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com * Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 * Cell: +44 7939-087884 -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Five Things in Fedora This Week (2014-04-01)
Joe Zeff j...@zeff.us writes: On 04/01/2014 09:49 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: That would be the responsibility of the WM's themselves. WM's have to add support. Not the other way around as you seem to think. Which is why I pointed out that the question was if fvwm works with Wayland, not the other way around. It has been established that it is irrelevant what users think. I`m merely saying that wayland seems not very useful when it doesn`t work with most of the existing WMs. -- Fedora release 20 (Heisenbug) -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Five Things in Fedora This Week (2014-04-01)
On 02.04.2014 13:54, Liam Proven wrote: On 2 April 2014 10:37, Patrick O'Callaghan pocallag...@gmail.com wrote: but a redesign of the X protocol, i.e. it's not ABI compatible. No, it's not a redesign of anything. It is an entirely new GUI layer which entirely replaces X.11 - as has been done in both Android and Mac OS X and which Canonical are attempting to do with Mir. Mir was a space station that operated in low Earth orbit from 1986 to 2001, owned at first by the Soviet Union and then by Russia. Mir was the first modular space station and was assembled in orbit from 1986 to 1996. How much is Tour de Mir per capita? poma -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Five Things in Fedora This Week (2014-04-01)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 04/02/2014 08:08 AM, lee wrote: Joe Zeff j...@zeff.us writes: On 04/01/2014 09:49 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: That would be the responsibility of the WM's themselves. WM's have to add support. Not the other way around as you seem to think. Which is why I pointed out that the question was if fvwm works with Wayland, not the other way around. It has been established that it is irrelevant what users think. I`m merely saying that wayland seems not very useful when it doesn`t work with most of the existing WMs. I think you completely miss the point here. The point is that X11 has reached the end of its usable life. Because of fundamental architecture decisions made decades ago, it cannot keep up with the desires of the modern window managers (for things like compositing, input method handling and much more). People have spent most of the last decade hacking on additional features to X11 in a haphazard way, limited by the historic architecture. Wayland was started as a means of providing those features that copious window managers/desktop environments have been asking for. There is *no way* to do this in a backwards-compatible manner, because the historical architecture never conceived of the modern way of doing things. This means that in order to get all these capabilities, the individual Window Managers will need to adapt to the new API. If they do not, there is effort to provide a compatibility layer called XWayland that will allow it to emulate the behavior of a classic X Windows environment. This is still a work in progress (and is not perfect), but it's an effort to ease this migration. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlM8EBUACgkQeiVVYja6o6NpEQCfckDbaVK9o7qjRL+RKfzPy0GV NhkAnRTLKYtULwxAw5OlQ6TubxZjC7lo =Q+5h -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Five Things in Fedora This Week (2014-04-01)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 04/02/2014 08:20 AM, poma wrote: On 02.04.2014 13:54, Liam Proven wrote: On 2 April 2014 10:37, Patrick O'Callaghan pocallag...@gmail.com wrote: but a redesign of the X protocol, i.e. it's not ABI compatible. No, it's not a redesign of anything. It is an entirely new GUI layer which entirely replaces X.11 - as has been done in both Android and Mac OS X and which Canonical are attempting to do with Mir. Mir was a space station that operated in low Earth orbit from 1986 to 2001, owned at first by the Soviet Union and then by Russia. Mir was the first modular space station and was assembled in orbit from 1986 to 1996. How much is Tour de Mir per capita? I realize you're likely being a troll, but Mir is Canonical/Ubuntu's alternative to Wayland. It's another post-X11, compositing display server meant to address basically the same needs that Wayland does. Canonical made a big noise a few years ago that Wayland was the wrong approach and tried to get support for its alternative, but years later Wayland is nearly ready for use and Mir has seen countless delays, as well as zero distributions adopting it outside of Ubuntu. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlM8EMIACgkQeiVVYja6o6MTQQCgn48x0Ut5J9gGIFZhxQzNCbK0 /PwAnjpe3HTAtbf4LJdduQw+YCKdB6sK =D/oA -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Five Things in Fedora This Week (2014-04-01)
On 2 April 2014 14:26, Stephen Gallagher sgall...@redhat.com wrote: Joe Zeff j...@zeff.us writes: On 04/01/2014 09:49 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: That would be the responsibility of the WM's themselves. WM's have to add support. Not the other way around as you seem to think. Which is why I pointed out that the question was if fvwm works with Wayland, not the other way around. This means that in order to get all these capabilities, the individual Window Managers will need to adapt to the new API. If they do not, there is effort to provide a compatibility layer called XWayland that will allow it to emulate the behavior of a classic X Windows environment. This is still a work in progress (and is not perfect), but it's an effort to ease this migration. I know you weren't reply to me, but this is really the point I wanted to make: to take advantage of Wayland it makes absolute sense that applications will need to use a new API. But breaking WMs, toolkits and applications (whether they use toolkits or X directly doesn't much matter if they don't work) and saying it's their fault for not updating isn't really a goer, a compatibility layer is a must. If the new API is so much better people will move eventually if the new features are needed. If they're not needed then forcing a change is just creating unnecessary work. -- imalone http://ibmalone.blogspot.co.uk -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Five Things in Fedora This Week (2014-04-01)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 04/02/2014 09:42 AM, Ian Malone wrote: On 2 April 2014 14:26, Stephen Gallagher sgall...@redhat.com wrote: Joe Zeff j...@zeff.us writes: On 04/01/2014 09:49 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: That would be the responsibility of the WM's themselves. WM's have to add support. Not the other way around as you seem to think. Which is why I pointed out that the question was if fvwm works with Wayland, not the other way around. This means that in order to get all these capabilities, the individual Window Managers will need to adapt to the new API. If they do not, there is effort to provide a compatibility layer called XWayland that will allow it to emulate the behavior of a classic X Windows environment. This is still a work in progress (and is not perfect), but it's an effort to ease this migration. I know you weren't reply to me, but this is really the point I wanted to make: to take advantage of Wayland it makes absolute sense that applications will need to use a new API. But breaking WMs, toolkits and applications (whether they use toolkits or X directly doesn't much matter if they don't work) and saying it's their fault for not updating isn't really a goer, a compatibility layer is a must. If the I don't think anyone has ever said that, except the baseless accusations made in this very thread :) As I said, XWayland exists for this very purpose. It's not perfect, but neither is the rest of Wayland, yet. This need is not being ignored by anyone. new API is so much better people will move eventually if the new features are needed. If they're not needed then forcing a change is just creating unnecessary work. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlM8GTMACgkQeiVVYja6o6N7kwCfb05AO+wMFz5ASSfmnz21+gXa wCUAnR2JeIJ8RktXrNEauMjk6KTPyR25 =HyRv -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Five Things in Fedora This Week (2014-04-01)
On 2 April 2014 15:05, Stephen Gallagher sgall...@redhat.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 04/02/2014 09:42 AM, Ian Malone wrote: I know you weren't reply to me, but this is really the point I wanted to make: to take advantage of Wayland it makes absolute sense that applications will need to use a new API. But breaking WMs, toolkits and applications (whether they use toolkits or X directly doesn't much matter if they don't work) and saying it's their fault for not updating isn't really a goer, a compatibility layer is a must. If the I don't think anyone has ever said that, except the baseless accusations made in this very thread :) As I said, XWayland exists for this very purpose. It's not perfect, but neither is the rest of Wayland, yet. This need is not being ignored by anyone. Thanks. When I read, there is an effort to provide a compatibility layer, my usual interpretation is it's only loosely related to the project in question, rather than a core concern. I originally missed this line in Rahul's email: Other apps can use the compatibility layer called XWayland. But did read his reply to Lee: Hm, not really useful when it doesn`t work with existing WMs ... That would be the responsibility of the WM's themselves. Which might have been better reiterating the point about the compatibility layer. -- imalone http://ibmalone.blogspot.co.uk -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Five Things in Fedora This Week (2014-04-01)
On 02.04.2014 15:29, Stephen Gallagher wrote: On 04/02/2014 08:20 AM, poma wrote: On 02.04.2014 13:54, Liam Proven wrote: On 2 April 2014 10:37, Patrick O'Callaghan pocallag...@gmail.com wrote: but a redesign of the X protocol, i.e. it's not ABI compatible. No, it's not a redesign of anything. It is an entirely new GUI layer which entirely replaces X.11 - as has been done in both Android and Mac OS X and which Canonical are attempting to do with Mir. Mir was a space station that operated in low Earth orbit from 1986 to 2001, owned at first by the Soviet Union and then by Russia. Mir was the first modular space station and was assembled in orbit from 1986 to 1996. How much is Tour de Mir per capita? I realize you're likely being a troll, but Mir is Canonical/Ubuntu's alternative to Wayland. It's another post-X11, compositing display server meant to address basically the same needs that Wayland does. Canonical made a big noise a few years ago that Wayland was the wrong approach and tried to get support for its alternative, but years later Wayland is nearly ready for use and Mir has seen countless delays, as well as zero distributions adopting it outside of Ubuntu. Maybe I should ask Mark. :) poma -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Five Things in Fedora This Week (2014-04-01)
Hi On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 10:47 AM, Ian Malone wrote: I originally missed this line in Rahul's email: Other apps can use the compatibility layer called XWayland. But did read his reply to Lee: Hm, not really useful when it doesn`t work with existing WMs ... That would be the responsibility of the WM's themselves. Which might have been better reiterating the point about the compatibility layer. Reiterating doesn't help much when people jump to conclusions rather than read through the details which are widely available online but in any case, the compatibility layer is primary designed for running X apps that haven't migrated over but window managers are rather special and tend to use very specific functionality from X rather than rely mostly on abstraction layer via GTK or Qt which themselves can work with Wayland. So they really should be ported over and that is the responsibility of the WM developers. You could in theory be running a full desktop environment over the compatibility layer but it isn't a good idea since performance will likely suffer and it isn't designed for that. Rahul -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Five Things in Fedora This Week (2014-04-01)
On 2 April 2014 13:20, poma pomidorabelis...@gmail.com wrote: Mir was a space station that operated in low Earth orbit from 1986 to 2001, owned at first by the Soviet Union and then by Russia. Mir was the first modular space station and was assembled in orbit from 1986 to 1996. How much is Tour de Mir per capita? If this is some kind of effort at a personal dig at Mark Shuttleworth or at Ubuntu, please don't bother. It's not funny or clever and it's not a useful contribution. Мир is of course the Russian for peace. Technically, AIUI, as display servers, Mir and Wayland are quite similar. Wayland is somewhat tied into GNOME 3; Mir into Unity. Wayland focus on desktops, Mir on phones and tablets too, and their different input devices. Diversity is good. Probably in time one will prove better and win, as when compositors came to Linux and XGL fought it out with AIGLX. Or, more recently, as Debian has adopted Systemd over Canonical's Upstart and Canonical has announced it will follow suit. -- Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 • Cell: +44 7939-087884 -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Five Things in Fedora This Week (2014-04-01)
On Wed, 2014-04-02 at 19:48 +0100, Liam Proven wrote: Wayland is somewhat tied into GNOME 3 tied into could be taken to imply it's somehow dependent on Gnome, which AFAIK is not the case. poc -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Five Things in Fedora This Week (2014-04-01)
Hi On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 2:48 PM, Liam Proven wrote: Technically, AIUI, as display servers, Mir and Wayland are quite similar. Wayland is somewhat tied into GNOME 3; Mir into Unity. Wayland focus on desktops, Mir on phones and tablets too, and their different input devices. This summary is inaccurate. Wayland has a stable protocol and is not tied to any specific desktop environment or deployment model. As I noted before, GNOME [1], KDE [2], Enlightenment [3] and others have already added support for Wayland and it is being used in phones[4] , tablets [5] etc and does not have any specific focus on the desktop Rahul [1] https://help.gnome.org/misc/release-notes/3.12/developers.html.en#wayland [2] https://community.kde.org/KWin/Wayland [3] https://phab.enlightenment.org/w/wayland/ [4] https://twitter.com/JollaHQ/status/356034168351756290 [5] http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_itempx=MTE5Mjc -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Five Things in Fedora This Week (2014-04-01)
On Wed, 2014-04-02 at 12:54 +0100, Liam Proven wrote: On 2 April 2014 10:37, Patrick O'Callaghan pocallag...@gmail.com wrote: but a redesign of the X protocol, i.e. it's not ABI compatible. No, it's not a redesign of anything. It is an entirely new GUI layer which entirely replaces X.11 - as has been done in both Android and Mac OS X and which Canonical are attempting to do with Mir. Terminological inexactitude on my part. From the Wayland site: Wayland is intended as a simpler replacement for X, easier to develop and maintain. GNOME and KDE are expected to be ported to it. AIUI the plan is to implement some form of X.11 compatibility on top of it, but few modern *nix apps write direct to X.11 any more - they talk to a toolkit, such as Gtk or Qt or one of the more obscure ones like FLTK. Once those toolkits are ported to Wayland, the apps should, in theory, run just as before, with no need for X.11 or an X-compatible layer. Kind of what I was trying to say. Those apps that do talk to X directly, such as window managers, need to be rewritten or use a compatibility layer in the meantime. poc -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Five Things in Fedora This Week (2014-04-01)
On Tue, Apr 01, 2014 at 04:12:16PM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: 5tFTW note -- This is the third installment of this series, and I'm still calibrating a few things. I'm aiming at a wide audience, but I'm not quite sure how much explaining I should do of general Fedora knowledge. Is it helpful for me to (as above), give a quick explanation when I talk about Rawhide, Flock, or FESCo? Or, does that just increase the word count for no reason? Let me know. I think the few words you add, are very welcome. I have been a long time Fedora user, but I still find the universe of Fedora is quite diverse and often needs some introduction. Hope this helps, -- Suvayu Open source is the future. It sets us free. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Five Things in Fedora This Week (2014-04-01)
On 2 April 2014 20:09, Rahul Sundaram methe...@gmail.com wrote: This summary is inaccurate. Wayland has a stable protocol and is not tied to any specific desktop environment or deployment model. As I noted before, GNOME [1], KDE [2], Enlightenment [3] and others have already added support for Wayland and it is being used in phones[4] , tablets [5] etc and does not have any specific focus on the desktop Very well. I sit corrected. May I suggest that if you feel that you have a good understanding of this area, that you write an article comparing the two and explaining the differences? I researched my answers before I posted and spent half an hour reading up on the subject; clearly I got the wrong messages from the dozen+ articles I read. I have never seen a clear, informed description of the similarities and differences of the 2 main replacements for X.11 anywhere. It is badly needed. But there are lots of docs written from the POV of one camp or the other, singing the praises of their in-house product in vague nebulous marketing-speak and damning the other. This is no use to anyone. -- Liam Proven * Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk * GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com * Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 * Cell: +44 7939-087884 -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Five Things in Fedora This Week (2014-04-01)
On 2 April 2014 19:48, Liam Proven lpro...@gmail.com wrote: On 2 April 2014 13:20, poma pomidorabelis...@gmail.com wrote: Mir was a space station that operated in low Earth orbit from 1986 to 2001, owned at first by the Soviet Union and then by Russia. Mir was the first modular space station and was assembled in orbit from 1986 to 1996. How much is Tour de Mir per capita? If this is some kind of effort at a personal dig at Mark Shuttleworth or at Ubuntu, please don't bother. It's not funny or clever and it's not a useful contribution. For anyone who hasn't noticed by now, poma's observations can be somewhat opaque to interpretation. -- imalone http://ibmalone.blogspot.co.uk -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Five Things in Fedora This Week (2014-04-01)
On 2 April 2014 16:04, Rahul Sundaram methe...@gmail.com wrote: Hi On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 10:47 AM, Ian Malone wrote: I originally missed this line in Rahul's email: Other apps can use the compatibility layer called XWayland. But did read his reply to Lee: Hm, not really useful when it doesn`t work with existing WMs ... That would be the responsibility of the WM's themselves. Which might have been better reiterating the point about the compatibility layer. Reiterating doesn't help much when people jump to conclusions rather than read through the details which are widely available online but in any case, the compatibility layer is primary designed for running X apps that haven't migrated over but window managers are rather special and tend to use very specific functionality from X rather than rely mostly on abstraction layer via GTK or Qt which themselves can work with Wayland. So they really should be ported over and that is the responsibility of the WM developers. You could in theory be running a full desktop environment over the compatibility layer but it isn't a good idea since performance will likely suffer and it isn't designed for that. I would love to spend all my free time reading up about every new project, but it's not going to happen. Sorry typo, I would loathe to... Since you and Stephen Gallagher have now said somewhat contradictory things I'm left no wiser than when we started. I also don't know whether to take the statement about performance at face value or whether to imagine it's conjecture, since compatibility layers can be quite transparent. (And also since more modern WMs incorporate scripting engines we seem to be at the point where we say performance limits for WM aren't a worry any more.) -- imalone http://ibmalone.blogspot.co.uk -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Five Things in Fedora This Week (2014-04-01)
On 2 April 2014 21:40, Ian Malone ibmal...@gmail.com wrote: For anyone who hasn't noticed by now, poma's observations can be somewhat opaque to interpretation. Mir was a famous Russian space station in low Earth orbit. Its contemporary successor is the International Space Station. Mark Shuttleworth, founder of Ubuntu, made his money by selling his digital-certificate dotcom Thawte to Verisign; the first thing he did with his newfound great wealth was take a trip to the ISS as a paying space tourist. When he came home, he started the Ubuntu project. This, ISTM, is what poma was alluding to, using a play on words for Canonical's rival X.11 replacement project to Wayland, which is codenamed Mir. -- Liam Proven * Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk * GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com * Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 * Cell: +44 7939-087884 -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Five Things in Fedora This Week (2014-04-01)
On 02.04.2014 22:46, Liam Proven wrote: On 2 April 2014 21:40, Ian Malone ibmal...@gmail.com wrote: For anyone who hasn't noticed by now, poma's observations can be somewhat opaque to interpretation. Mir was a famous Russian space station in low Earth orbit. Its contemporary successor is the International Space Station. Mark Shuttleworth, founder of Ubuntu, made his money by selling his digital-certificate dotcom Thawte to Verisign; the first thing he did with his newfound great wealth was take a trip to the ISS as a paying space tourist. When he came home, he started the Ubuntu project. This, ISTM, is what poma was alluding to, using a play on words for Canonical's rival X.11 replacement project to Wayland, which is codenamed Mir. Long live the Phoronix! :) poma -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Five Things in Fedora This Week (2014-04-01)
Hi On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 4:44 PM, Ian Malone wrote: I would love to spend all my free time reading up about every new project, but it's not going to happen. Sorry typo, I would loathe to... If you care about new projects, you will have to read up on them. If you don't, wait till it gets deployed widely and you will experience it directly. Also the note on performance is based on experience with Mir running over XMir. Rahul -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Five Things in Fedora This Week (2014-04-01)
On 2 April 2014 22:13, poma pomidorabelis...@gmail.com wrote: Long live the Phoronix! :) No idea what that means. I am well aware of Phoronix the Linux performance-testing and tech news site, but not of any relevance to this discussion. -- Liam Proven * Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk * GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com * Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 * Cell: +44 7939-087884 -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Five Things in Fedora This Week (2014-04-01)
On 02.04.2014 23:37, Liam Proven wrote: On 2 April 2014 22:13, poma pomidorabelis...@gmail.com wrote: Long live the Phoronix! :) No idea what that means. I am well aware of Phoronix the Linux performance-testing and tech news site, but not of any relevance to this discussion. Man, dunno bout ya, but I learn much bout linuxes on the Phoronix. poma -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Five Things in Fedora This Week (2014-04-01)
Reposted from http://fedoramagazine.org/five-things-in-fedora-this-week-2014-04-01/ Fedora is a big project, and it’s hard to follow it all. This series highlights interesting happenings in five different areas every week. It isn't comprehensive news coverage — just quick summaries with links to each. I know it's traditional for the Internet to be useless today, but, despite the temptation, I'm sticking to the facts. So, here we go for April 1st, 2014: Trying Wayland (and Gnome 3.12) --- Wayland is the upcoming successor to the X11 graphics protocol which powers our desktops. It's not done yet, but you can try it first in Fedora. You'll need to be running Rawhide (Fedora's development branch). In theory, it should work on Fedora 20 with Gnome 3.12, but from the mailing list thread, it looks like that's not working yet. * http://wayland.freedesktop.org/ * https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/desktop/2014-March/009543.html Wait, Gnome 3.12 on Fedora 20, you ask? Yes; although F20 shipped with 3.10, 3.12 is available for those of you who are a little adventurous but not so brave as to run Rawhide, via Richard Hughes’ Gnome 3.12 COPR. There's a Fedora Magazine article with instructions, too. * https://copr.fedoraproject.org/coprs/rhughes/f20-gnome-3-12/ * http://fedoramagazine.org/running-gnome-3-12-on-fedora-20/ Infrastructure downtime *today* --- What better time for major upgrades than April Fool's Day? If you notice that some Fedora infrastructure services are unavailable later this evening, it's no joke, just planned work, including an upgrade to Koji, Fedora's package and image building service. The work should happen between 21:00 and 01:00 UTC (`date -d '2014-04-01 21:00 UTC'` in your local time). * https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/announce/2014-March/003204.html Last call for Flock talk proposals -- Flock is our big annual development and planning conference, held this year in Prague from August 6th–9th. The deadline for talk proposals is April 3rd — that's Thursday. So if you are thinking of something, it's time to put those thoughts in writing. Note that there is some funding available for travel and hotel subsidies; it's not guaranteed, but we want as many contributors there as possible, so if you have a need, there is a box to check at registration time. * http://flocktofedora.org/ * https://flock-lmacken.rhcloud.com/submit_proposal Fedora 21 change plan deadline -- Speaking of deadlines... the Fedora Change Proposal deadline is April 8th, a week from today. These change proposals are our primary means for coordinating development across the project, so particularly if you want to do something which affects other areas, get it in now. FESCo (Fedora's technical steering committee) reviews and approves each proposal and may accept late entries (especially for self-contained changes), but it really helps to know sooner rather than later. Note that these proposals are largely statements of intent to do something, not orders for someone else to. As a community project developed by volunteers, we don't have a mechanism to *force* anyone do anything, so if you want to make something happen and can't do it all yourself, discuss on the Fedora devel list (or the appropriate SIGs) and get others inspired to sign on as collaborators. * https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel-announce/2014-April/001345.html Fedora Docs starts a Cookbook - The Fedora Docs team does an excellent job of producing our book-quality documentation, but we have a unfilled need for easy-to-contribute-to howto and quickstart articles. The Docs team recently held an Activity Day focused on finding a solution, and Pete Travis (a.k.a. randomuser) describes the results: The answer we settled on is what will become the Fedora Cookbook, and it is a process as much as a book. Anyone can submit a 'recipe' for the Cookbook [...] using provided templates, and Docs volunteers will review, mark up, submit for translation, and publish. There's a lot more in Pete's post, so if this is an area of interest to you, and especially if you've been wanting to contribute but aren't sure how, don't miss it. * http://docs.fedoraproject.org/ * http://blog.randomuser.org/posts/open-books.html 5tFTW note -- This is the third installment of this series, and I'm still calibrating a few things. I'm aiming at a wide audience, but I'm not quite sure how much explaining I should do of general Fedora knowledge. Is it helpful for me to (as above), give a quick explanation when I talk about Rawhide, Flock, or FESCo? Or, does that just increase the word count for no reason? Let me know. Also, as always, tips on what's going on in your part of Fedora are appreciated — e-mail them to me directly, or ping me on IRC. -- Matthew Miller-- Fedora
Re: Five Things in Fedora This Week (2014-04-01)
Matthew Miller mat...@fedoraproject.org writes: Trying Wayland (and Gnome 3.12) --- Wayland is the upcoming successor to the X11 graphics protocol which powers our desktops. It's not done yet, but you can try it first in Fedora. Does it work with fvwm? -- Fedora release 20 (Heisenbug) -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Five Things in Fedora This Week (2014-04-01)
On 04/01/2014 02:29 PM, lee wrote: Does it work with fvwm? I'm not sure, but it might be more appropriate to ask if fvwm works with Wayland. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Five Things in Fedora This Week (2014-04-01)
Hi On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 5:29 PM, lee wrote: Trying Wayland (and Gnome 3.12) --- Wayland is the upcoming successor to the X11 graphics protocol which powers our desktops. It's not done yet, but you can try it first in Fedora. Does it work with fvwm? Not directly. Window managers and toolkits needs to be explicitly ported over. Currently Wayland is supported by GNOME, KDE and Enlightenment as well as GTK and QT in mostly experimental stages. Other apps can use the compatibility layer called XWayland. Rahul -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Five Things in Fedora This Week (2014-04-01)
Rahul Sundaram methe...@gmail.com writes: Hi On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 5:29 PM, lee wrote: Trying Wayland (and Gnome 3.12) --- Wayland is the upcoming successor to the X11 graphics protocol which powers our desktops. It's not done yet, but you can try it first in Fedora. Does it work with fvwm? Not directly. Window managers and toolkits needs to be explicitly ported over. Hm, not really useful when it doesn`t work with existing WMs ... -- Fedora release 20 (Heisenbug) -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Five Things in Fedora This Week (2014-04-01)
Hi On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 7:52 PM, lee wrote: Hm, not really useful when it doesn`t work with existing WMs ... That would be the responsibility of the WM's themselves. WM's have to add support. Not the other way around as you seem to think. Rahul -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
