Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 05:42:25PM +, Ian Malone wrote: > On 15 November 2011 15:34, Darryl L. Pierce wrote: > > On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 08:11:32PM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > >> >> If not, why not? > >> > - Drowning in F16 bugs. > >> > - being busy with getting things up again. > >> > - being busy with other tasks. > >> > >> Would have taken less time to write that bug report than the many > >> replies in this thread. > > > > +1 A bugzilla takes a much time and effort as posting an email to > > complain about a missing feature or a bug. > > > > Not to do it properly with reproducibility, searching for related > problems and trying to collect sufficient information to make the bug > worthwhile. Unless this was the first time the problem occurred (and who posts complains or BZs on the very first bad experience?) then you have a general idea of how to reproduce the problem. So, again, if you have enough information to complain then you also have enough to post a bug report. -- Darryl L. Pierce, Sr. Software Engineer @ Red Hat, Inc. Delivering value year after year. Red Hat ranks #1 in value among software vendors. http://www.redhat.com/promo/vendor/ pgpXIAdISNMyf.pgp Description: PGP signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
On 15 November 2011 15:34, Darryl L. Pierce wrote: > On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 08:11:32PM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> >> If not, why not? >> > - Drowning in F16 bugs. >> > - being busy with getting things up again. >> > - being busy with other tasks. >> >> Would have taken less time to write that bug report than the many >> replies in this thread. > > +1 A bugzilla takes a much time and effort as posting an email to > complain about a missing feature or a bug. > Not to do it properly with reproducibility, searching for related problems and trying to collect sufficient information to make the bug worthwhile. Also my favourite bugs of late have been ones that affect my net connection. Not that the developers on that haven't been very helpful (they have), but if *everything* you are using your computer to do is going slow (and I don't just use my computers to file Fedora bugs as it turns out) then filing other bugs drops down your priority list a bit. Just thought I'd chip into this otherwise really very silly thread. -- imalone -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
> On 11/14/2011 01:49 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: >> > I have to repeat: F16's anaconda's partitioning GUI does not allow you >> > to do so. > I've been using Fedora since FC6, and anaconda's always allowed you to > do a custom partitioning scheme. If it doesn't in F16, it's a serious > bug and you should report it. I think you are talking about different things. Since at least Fedora 4 (my start point) there has been an option to customize the partitioning. BUT when you do that, anaconda WILL re-number/re-arrange the partitions as you create them from a blank disk. I have never discerned the reasoning behind the way it does this. I like my partitions in alphabetical label order but I cannot create them in that order with anaconda. I have a gpartged live-cd somewhere around here and that might be the easiest route the next time I am installing (sometime soon with F16!) (Hmmm, wonder if kickstart can be coerced into doing the right thing?) Geoff -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 08:11:32PM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > >> If not, why not? > > - Drowning in F16 bugs. > > - being busy with getting things up again. > > - being busy with other tasks. > > Would have taken less time to write that bug report than the many > replies in this thread. +1 A bugzilla takes a much time and effort as posting an email to complain about a missing feature or a bug. -- Darryl L. Pierce, Sr. Software Engineer @ Red Hat, Inc. Delivering value year after year. Red Hat ranks #1 in value among software vendors. http://www.redhat.com/promo/vendor/ pgpt99Rvy6n6d.pgp Description: PGP signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 11:51:26PM +0100, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > > Having just finished up two new VMs based on F16, I can attest that yes > > you can create custom partition schemes during the installation from the > > GUI. > > I don't know what you did, but was using a real disks. That's irrelevant. From the installation's point of view /dev/vda was as real as a physical drive. -- Darryl L. Pierce, Sr. Software Engineer @ Red Hat, Inc. Delivering value year after year. Red Hat ranks #1 in value among software vendors. http://www.redhat.com/promo/vendor/ pgpiImV590nc5.pgp Description: PGP signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
On 11/15/2011 04:56 AM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > On 11/15/2011 12:07 AM, Joe Zeff wrote: >> On 11/14/2011 02:51 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: >>> Anaconda's "custom partitioning" did not allow me to partion the >>> partions as I had wanted to. >> >> Have you reported this as a bug? > Not yet. > >> If not, why not? > - Drowning in F16 bugs. > - being busy with getting things up again. > - being busy with other tasks. Would have taken less time to write that bug report than the many replies in this thread. Rahul -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
On 11/15/2011 12:23 AM, Chris Adams wrote: > Once upon a time, Joe Zeff said: >> On 11/14/2011 02:51 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: >>> Anaconda's "custom partitioning" did not allow me to partion the >>> partions as I had wanted to. >> >> Have you reported this as a bug? If not, why not? > > Anaconda has never given you the ability to control partition layout, > beyond the "force to be a primary partition" checkbox. Thank you for confirming my observation. > If you want > partition in a specific order, or certain partitions as extended, you've > always had to partition manually (even in a kickstart, you have to > partition in %pre to get a specific layout). The anaconda developers > don't think you have any need to determine your own layout. How many cluesticks does it take ? There are many reasons to determine your own layout: #1 reason being "history of a system" #2 reason being "coexistance with other OSes" Ralf -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
On 11/14/2011 03:23 PM, Chris Adams wrote: > Anaconda has never given you the ability to control partition layout, > beyond the "force to be a primary partition" checkbox. I never had any trouble with it when I was first partitioning my laptop with multiple partitions for Fedora. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
On 11/15/2011 12:07 AM, Joe Zeff wrote: > On 11/14/2011 02:51 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: >> Anaconda's "custom partitioning" did not allow me to partion the >> partions as I had wanted to. > > Have you reported this as a bug? Not yet. > If not, why not? - Drowning in F16 bugs. - being busy with getting things up again. - being busy with other tasks. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
Once upon a time, Joe Zeff said: > On 11/14/2011 02:51 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > > Anaconda's "custom partitioning" did not allow me to partion the > > partions as I had wanted to. > > Have you reported this as a bug? If not, why not? Anaconda has never given you the ability to control partition layout, beyond the "force to be a primary partition" checkbox. If you want partition in a specific order, or certain partitions as extended, you've always had to partition manually (even in a kickstart, you have to partition in %pre to get a specific layout). The anaconda developers don't think you have any need to determine your own layout. -- Chris Adams Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
On 11/14/2011 02:51 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > Anaconda's "custom partitioning" did not allow me to partion the > partions as I had wanted to. Have you reported this as a bug? If not, why not? -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
On 11/14/2011 11:07 PM, Darryl L. Pierce wrote: > On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 01:59:38PM -0800, Joe Zeff wrote: >> On 11/14/2011 01:49 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: >>> I have to repeat: F16's anaconda's partitioning GUI does not allow you >>> to do so. >> >> I've been using Fedora since FC6, I am using Fedora since day #1. >> and anaconda's always allowed you to >> do a custom partitioning scheme. If it doesn't in F16, it's a serious >> bug and you should report it. That's part of what I am saying. Another part is anaconda's "custom partioning GUI" felt very clumsy im comparison to Fedora's competitors (Try SuSE's GUI. It isn't perfect too, but it's light years ahead of Fedora's/RH 's GUI). > Having just finished up two new VMs based on F16, I can attest that yes > you can create custom partition schemes during the installation from the > GUI. I don't know what you did, but was using a real disks. Anaconda's "custom partitioning" did not allow me to partion the partions as I had wanted to. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 01:59:38PM -0800, Joe Zeff wrote: > On 11/14/2011 01:49 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > > I have to repeat: F16's anaconda's partitioning GUI does not allow you > > to do so. > > I've been using Fedora since FC6, and anaconda's always allowed you to > do a custom partitioning scheme. If it doesn't in F16, it's a serious > bug and you should report it. Having just finished up two new VMs based on F16, I can attest that yes you can create custom partition schemes during the installation from the GUI. -- Darryl L. Pierce, Sr. Software Engineer @ Red Hat, Inc. Delivering value year after year. Red Hat ranks #1 in value among software vendors. http://www.redhat.com/promo/vendor/ pgpNvyjvHotL5.pgp Description: PGP signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
On 11/14/2011 01:49 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > I have to repeat: F16's anaconda's partitioning GUI does not allow you > to do so. I've been using Fedora since FC6, and anaconda's always allowed you to do a custom partitioning scheme. If it doesn't in F16, it's a serious bug and you should report it. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
On 11/14/2011 08:05 PM, Joe Zeff wrote: > On 11/14/2011 04:08 AM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: >> (Hey. I never wanted /home to be /dev/sdb3 but want it to be on /dev/sdb6.) > > So use a custom partitioning scheme and set it that way. I have to repeat: F16's anaconda's partitioning GUI does not allow you to do so. It always wants to create all primary partions first before you can create an extended partition and even tries to move partitions between disks, if free space is available on multiple disks. I escaped to and to creating an extended partition manually. Ralf -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
On Sun, 2011-11-13 at 15:58 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote: > > yes, this should be only a option and never made as default > > LVM is for most peopole not useful especially on a notebook > where you have nothing to extend with a second disk and > remember that you have lost the game if you extend a LVM o > over several disks and of them dies without RAID Rubbish. I've use LVM on notebooks for years now and used it with success. LVM is more than a "partition emulator". It gives you cloning, snapshots and much more at your finger tips, to make creating VMs and backups a lot easier. I've seen so many misconceptions being communicated about LVM here and other mailing lists. Usually done in ways that directly contradicts basic features of LVM. Some features that you may not be aware of: Striping and mirroring can be done through LVM alone. Another misconception is performance is degregated. No - LVM is not "another" layer. It's replacing the layer you have. There's no new layer with the device mapper - it doesn't first map LVM then your partition. Performance numbers being publishes have proven that you're not having a penalty. And if the benchmark for usability ARE laptops - what IO performance are you talking about that can be measured? http://lists-archives.org/linux-kernel/27323152-ext4-is-faster-with-lvm-than-without-and-other-filesystem-benchmarks.html All in all - I'm not opposed to having LVM as an option. But it should be discouraged. There's no real penalty of using LVM but there's a lot by NOT using it. From better backups, to being able to test changes without risking loosing it all. I would argue that anaconda by default shouldn't allocate the whole VG but leave some room for snapshots. Otherwise you don't give people the chance of actually using some of the very cool LVM features that help even us laptop users. -- Best Regards Peter Larsen Wise words of the day: Problem solving under Linux has never been the circus that it is under AIX. -- Pete Ehlke in comp.unix.aix signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
On 11/14/2011 04:08 AM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > (Hey. I never wanted /home to be /dev/sdb3 but want it to be on /dev/sdb6.) So use a custom partitioning scheme and set it that way. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
Am 13.11.2011 19:28, schrieb Mark LaPierre: > For example, I like to have the newest software, but I don't want to be > the primary tester. I prefer to hang back a release or two you CAN NOT hang back TWO releases in the next months EOL for F14 ends and so you get no more security updates > I've don't like the looks of what I see in F15 or F16 at > the moment so I'll probably skip those releases. and have a system with NO security updates over months? do this fro your own but tell nobody this is a godd decisison YES it is better to hang one release back, but next month everybody who likes securred systems have to upgrade to F15 and F15 did not get services converted to systemd, no really systemd-improvements because fedora releases are "fire and forget" for most core developers or why are they not interested to update systemd since they decided it was good enough in his crappy tsate at release time which is not what users feel fedora CURRENTLY is missing a lot of QA instead "fire out and forget" this has nothing to do with bleeding edge, the edges are way too often not bleeding they are bloodless because they whole blood ran out signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
Am 13.11.2011 16:10, schrieb Bruno Wolff III: >> There are still ca. 300 packages that are not converted from SysV/LSB to it >> by >> their maintainers who resist or do not see a reason for the "progress" >> despite >> all threats. > > This is more likely due to contributors being overstretched, than actual > opposition to systed in the mahority of these cases and that is the point where all involved peopole should start to think why this is the case - in my opinion tis happens while way too much big changes are done in way too less time and contributors start loose this game over the long what should a contributor do if he has only a samll time window until big changes are throwed out nevermind if they are ready or not while he has to do his job, having a family and the right to relax some amount of his lifetime? if it happens too often that contributors are overstretched something is going wrong - help them with delay new features as long all the involved people are ready instead put them under pressure and give them the feeling "and after you survived this big change do not think you have time to breath because the next big is waiting" signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
Am 13.11.2011 15:30, schrieb Alan Cox: > LVM wasn't a big deal for those who knew better > disable it on install and your disk I/O improves, and > its become vaguely relevant with crypto. yes, this should be only a option and never made as default LVM is for most peopole not useful especially on a notebook where you have nothing to extend with a second disk and remember that you have lost the game if you extend a LVM o over several disks and of them dies without RAID > It's bloated > It picks bad user defaults > It ships a default desktop which burns CPU horribly the defaults may be not so bad but way too soon often >> And what? All the engineers at Red Hat develop new tech in Fedora. Where >> do you propose those new technologies come from if Red Hat splits off? > > Perhaps the Red Hat engineers could QA their new technologies a bit > more before including them ? THIS is the point making things more ready, delay them if they are not really ready and stop waste the benefit of opensource which is "it will be released if it is finished" without a hard timeline would improve things much > I do think that as has happened a couple of times before now it's time > Fedora spent a release or two being more conservative on new toys and > fixing the ones it already has i would appreciate that every second release would only stabilize and polish existing features, fying bugs, improve things, overthink defaults the only component which should be as near on upstream as possible is the kernel to support current hardware and not like it happened with F14 that it was unuseable on Sandy-Bridge hardware by not support the network-card because the hw-identifier was unknown while the driver is the same and the GUI heavily freezed multiple times each day with the graphics-unit this was because F14 is hanging around with 2.6.35 and with the changes of F15 you have really no otpion as user - this problem is solved with F15 2.6.40 since months and 2.6.41 currently in the pipeline now we have sytemd which is a real good thing - in theory, until not all services are converted, "chkconfig | grep on" does only show sysv units and so on - the point with "chkconfig" is that it is the wrong way to introduce permanently new commands like systemctl you must use because all the well known things are working bader and bader what users need over the long is stability in commands and get new ones for really new features but not loose everything they learned ober years teh acceptatance of new technology will be far better if the whole behaviour for the user is changed permanently rant like te one from JB "Time for Fedora to decouple from RH and become quality UNIX-like distro on its own" are naive and not helpful because most of are realizing how much of all the things we loved was and are developed by redhat and how near redhat works upstream (kernel, glibc, gcc..) and we are knwoing that the fedora-users are a little bit test-toys for the development - but this should never get too far what happened in the past there should be a way to minimize the nagetive impact for the users over the long, bring a little more stability in new releases with not throwing everything out in the earliest state while not beeing too conservative, but a little more like the last time signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 11/14/2011 06:47 AM, Timothy Murphy wrote: > > I don't agree that Fedora is going downhill - > I've used every version I think - > some upgrades have been easy and others have had major problems. > But I've never had an upgrade which I found unusable > as I find Fedora-16, for the simple reason that KMail2 doesn't work. > I could go over to Thunderbird, certainly. > But I find it easier to go back to Fedora-15, > especially since I had kept it on another partition. > > I found the contrast with the upgrade to Centos-6 > (which I run on 3 home servers, with Fedora on laptops) > quite striking - not a single problem, or even difficulty, > with the Centos-6 installations. > > So please, less of the "bleeding edge" excuse. > One reason the Centos upgrade went so smooth is because most of the bugs were worked out in Fedora. Only so much can get tested by the pool of testers running the per-release versions. There just isn't the mix of hardware/software available as there is running the released version. There can also be problems introduced by the different ways of doing an upgrade. Upgrading from 15 to 16 is a different experience then upgrading from 14 to 16. Running pre-upgrade is also different from doing a network upgrade or upgrading from a DVD. While it may not be the correct way of looking at it, I picture the testers that find bugs before the release version to be alpha testers. I consider the people that use the release version, especially when it is first released, to be beta testers. Fedora users are part of the development cycle. The thing is, not everyone will experience the same problems. I have had some releases that had bugs on my laptop that did not show up on my desktop, and vice-versa. So I file a bug report, or add to a bug report, saying that the problem shows up on this hardware and software setup, but not this other setup. Someone else says it breaks on their setup. Then you start looking for the things in common between the setups it does not work on, and look at those pieces first. The more people that report the same bug, with different setups, the more you can narrow down the bug. Hopefully, we stomp out most of the bugs before the software hits a more "mainstream" distribution. Just my view on things. Mikkel - -- Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with Ketchup! -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAk7BWG4ACgkQqbQrVW3JyMSCoACeOOEX7Unv9QZ9I+dRDw+XbxjQ tbMAn326+k32rtPyeaLtKGum6Hi7Bup+ =dEDy -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
On 11/14/2011 05:38 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: >> >> In the past, people absolutely needed swap because of low amount of RAM > > What to consider "low amounts of RAM" is relative and depends upon the > use case. Sure. Everything can be phrased this way. >> but hibernate is very rare these days considering general statistics. > > Whether someing is hardly rare in your statitics is irrelevant. Actually it is not my stats and it is very relevant on how often something will be tested, found and fixed. For instance, if hibernate was more common, you would see it being actively tested. > The fact anaconda lumps together swaps and lacks a proper GUI is nothing > but a defect. Installers simply must not touch what the user did not > explictly allow the installer to use. You wouldnt be able to find anyone disagreeing with that but the question remains, where is your bug report? Rahul -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
Thomas Cameron wrote: > Now, I absolutely understand the OP's and others' echoed concerns and > frustrations. I don't like bugs any more than the next guy. But I feel > like maybe there's some round hole/square peg going on here. Fedora, > almost by definition, will be bleeding edge and therefore, somewhat > buggy. I find this "bleeding edge" excuse for bugs really annoying. If you fire a rocket at the moon and it falls in the Pacific you can't just say "I'm so ambitious", you ought to say something like "Maybe I should make sure the bolts are all tight before I fire the rocket next time". I don't agree that Fedora is going downhill - I've used every version I think - some upgrades have been easy and others have had major problems. But I've never had an upgrade which I found unusable as I find Fedora-16, for the simple reason that KMail2 doesn't work. I could go over to Thunderbird, certainly. But I find it easier to go back to Fedora-15, especially since I had kept it on another partition. I found the contrast with the upgrade to Centos-6 (which I run on 3 home servers, with Fedora on laptops) quite striking - not a single problem, or even difficulty, with the Centos-6 installations. So please, less of the "bleeding edge" excuse. -- Timothy Murphy e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
On 11/14/2011 12:40 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > On 11/14/2011 04:23 PM, Ralf b wrote: > >> This at least was what distros had used swap for for a long time and is >> the reason for me to keep separate swaps for each installation. >> >> May-be things have changed? > > In the past, people absolutely needed swap because of low amount of RAM What to consider "low amounts of RAM" is relative and depends upon the use case. > but hibernate is very rare these days considering general statistics. Whether someing is hardly rare in your statitics is irrelevant. It doesn't mean it isn't used nor does it mean it isn't useful. Check your swap and you'll notice that the kernel still utilizes it. The fact anaconda lumps together swaps and lacks a proper GUI is nothing but a defect. Installers simply must not touch what the user did not explictly allow the installer to use. Similarly wrt. anaconda's partitioning GUI: It tries to be smart, by automatically assigning partions, but fails, because it can not know what the user intends. (Hey. I never wanted /home to be /dev/sdb3 but want it to be on /dev/sdb6.) -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
On 11/14/2011 04:23 PM, Ralf b wrote: > This at least was what distros had used swap for for a long time and is > the reason for me to keep separate swaps for each installation. > > May-be things have changed? In the past, people absolutely needed swap because of low amount of RAM but hibernate is very rare these days considering general statistics. Rahul -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
On 11/14/2011 09:01 AM, Ed Greshko wrote: > On 11/14/2011 03:44 PM, Joe Zeff wrote: >> On 11/13/2011 09:29 AM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: >>> The first issue was anaconda lumping together the swap partitions of the >>> other linux installations, I have installed in parallel >> That's not a problem because there's nothing left in swap when you >> reboot that's going to be needed again when you come back up. Letting >> all of your distros share the same swap is fine. > > If you suspend to disk, isn't swap used for that? > This at least was what distros had used swap for for a long time and is the reason for me to keep separate swaps for each installation. May-be things have changed? Ralf -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
On 11/14/2011 03:44 PM, Joe Zeff wrote: > On 11/13/2011 09:29 AM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: >> The first issue was anaconda lumping together the swap partitions of the >> other linux installations, I have installed in parallel > That's not a problem because there's nothing left in swap when you > reboot that's going to be needed again when you come back up. Letting > all of your distros share the same swap is fine. If you suspend to disk, isn't swap used for that? -- Even if you do learn to speak correct English, whom are you going to speak it to? -- Clarence Darrow -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
On 11/13/2011 11:50 AM, Thomas Cameron wrote: > ISTR people were a lot more careful about buying hardware that Linux > would work on. In part that's because it works with most hardware now. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
On 11/13/2011 09:29 AM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > The first issue was anaconda lumping together the swap partitions of the > other linux installations, I have installed in parallel That's not a problem because there's nothing left in swap when you reboot that's going to be needed again when you come back up. Letting all of your distros share the same swap is fine. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
Rahul Sundaram ha scritto / said the followingil giorno/on 14/11/2011 02:38: > On 11/14/2011 07:04 AM, inode0 wrote: > >> If the target audience fits #2 as well as #1 then it fits everyone and >> is meaningless isn't it? > > That's a matter of perspective. > > Most of what #2 talked about isn't even part >> of the default offering so he would be very disappointed in us. > > I don't see why. Default offering is just the default. The majority of > Fedora isn't going to fit into that default. > > Rahul Is this list for discussion of philosophy?? I read Community support for Fedora users -- Antonio M Skype: amontag52 Linux Fedora F16 (Verne) on Acer 5720 http://lugsaronno.altervista.org http://www.campingmonterosa.com http://www.studiodacolpaloschi.it -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
On 11/14/2011 07:04 AM, inode0 wrote: > If the target audience fits #2 as well as #1 then it fits everyone and > is meaningless isn't it? That's a matter of perspective. Most of what #2 talked about isn't even part > of the default offering so he would be very disappointed in us. I don't see why. Default offering is just the default. The majority of Fedora isn't going to fit into that default. Rahul -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 7:02 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > On 11/14/2011 06:31 AM, inode0 wrote: >> On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 6:56 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >>> On 11/14/2011 06:01 AM, inode0 wrote: >>> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_base The special class of users that is apparently no longer called the "target audience" but is none-the-less the people we are trying to reach seems to fit User #1 to me. >>> >>> I don't see it that way at all. Nothing in that says consumer or >>> excludes users interested in enterprise technologies. >> >> It does not exclude them and no one said it did. > > You are missing my point. It fits #2 as much as it fits #1. Besides > the user base document is only talking about the "default offering" > which is just the desktop live cd. Not about Fedora in general. If the target audience fits #2 as well as #1 then it fits everyone and is meaningless isn't it? Most of what #2 talked about isn't even part of the default offering so he would be very disappointed in us. John -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
On 11/14/2011 06:31 AM, inode0 wrote: > On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 6:56 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> On 11/14/2011 06:01 AM, inode0 wrote: >> >>> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_base >>> >>> The special class of users that is apparently no longer called the >>> "target audience" but is none-the-less the people we are trying to >>> reach seems to fit User #1 to me. >> >> I don't see it that way at all. Nothing in that says consumer or >> excludes users interested in enterprise technologies. > > It does not exclude them and no one said it did. You are missing my point. It fits #2 as much as it fits #1. Besides the user base document is only talking about the "default offering" which is just the desktop live cd. Not about Fedora in general. Rahul -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 6:56 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > On 11/14/2011 06:01 AM, inode0 wrote: > >> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_base >> >> The special class of users that is apparently no longer called the >> "target audience" but is none-the-less the people we are trying to >> reach seems to fit User #1 to me. > > I don't see it that way at all. Nothing in that says consumer or > excludes users interested in enterprise technologies. It does not exclude them and no one said it did. John -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
On 11/14/2011 06:01 AM, inode0 wrote: > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_base > > The special class of users that is apparently no longer called the > "target audience" but is none-the-less the people we are trying to > reach seems to fit User #1 to me. I don't see it that way at all. Nothing in that says consumer or excludes users interested in enterprise technologies. Rahul -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 3:07 PM, Thomas Cameron wrote: > On 11/13/2011 02:42 PM, inode0 wrote: >> On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 12:32 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >>> On 11/13/2011 11:57 PM, inode0 wrote: They are affected by many of the changes. That is why. >>> >>> How is a desktop user affected by new clustering technology? You aren't >>> making any sense to me now >> >> Let's start over. >> >> User #1 says "Fedora is getting worse each release." >> User #2 says "You are nuts, Fedora is great. Look at all this >> innovation - virtualization, clustering, etc." >> >> I was pointing out that one problem we have that this demonstrates is >> two big user communities. Sure they overlap but they are different. >> Both of the above views of Fedora make perfect sense at the same time. >> >> User #1 is from the user base professed by the project to be its >> target audience. > > Is he? I don't see anything at http://fedoraproject.org/en/about-fedora > that says it's specifically targeted at consumer-class users. In fact, > if you look at > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Overview#User_base_.28also_known_as_target_audience.29 > it makes pretty clear that there is no one class of users. Well, that seems poorly crafted to me. The user base is whoever it is, a lot of different people with a lot of different reasons to use Fedora. The target audience, despite what making it sound like they are the same, is a different collection of users as described further when you drill down. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_base The special class of users that is apparently no longer called the "target audience" but is none-the-less the people we are trying to reach seems to fit User #1 to me. John -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 11/13/2011 03:30 PM, Alan Cox wrote: >> like maybe there's some round hole/square peg going on here. Fedora, >> almost by definition, will be bleeding edge and therefore, somewhat >> buggy. But, really, our version of "buggy" is *so* much better than I >> deal with as regards most closed source commercial code, it's not even >> funny. > > This is the "Its ok to torture people providing we do it a bit less than > the bad guys" argument. I don't buy it. Meh. Torture is intentionally causing pain. Bugs in new tech != torture, sorry. That's a specious argument. > Fedora should aspire to quality. In my experience, it does. > Yes being leading edge means it'll be a > bit rougher unavoidably and it's always going to hit a few "doh" cases > that look really silly and got missed. Yes if you want a quite life you > should be running Centos. Or you could actually pay for the development work in Fedora and buy RHEL. You know, that pesky "give back" thing? > That doesn't mean Fedora should be sloppy because once your bugginess > passes a certain point it becomes impossible to work with. Every time you > try and fix something it breaks somewhere else. Fedora is a long way from > that at the moment but it's slowly slipping that way in F15 and F16. I'm sorry, I just have not had the same experience as you. And I'm not sure that most people have. I will absolutely agree there are bugs - this is human written code, there will always be bugs. But my experiences with 15 and 16 have been exactly the opposite. I'm getting great performance and a lot of really cool stuff like dual head Just Works(TM) and stuff like that. > It's > just something which in the normal order of things is going to create > pushback and complaining which should correct the slippage. > > Nothing needs "saving" just a bit of process focus tweakage. On this we can probably agree. I don't think the Fedora is bad - my experience is exactly the opposite. But then I use pretty standard kit so maybe I'm unusual. >> expectation that you're going to mod the installation to your needs. If >> I wanted a "click next, next, next, take what we damned well tell you >> to, and like it" installation, I would run closed source. > > Well I expect open source to be at least as good as closed source. So if > the closed source can get 'just hit next' right, the open source ought to > be able to do. It's not exactly hard, Even Ubuntu pretty much manages > that one. > > "Just hit next" is a *feature*. It's a sign of good design, and of > quality. It's also a really good stability feature because most users > just hit next so you know which path to test the crap out of. You missed my point. I wasn't talking about hitting next - you can absolutely do that with Fedora and get a perfectly usable installation, just like you can do with e.g. Windows. I was talking much more about the "take what we damned well tell you to, and like it" part. Fedora is pretty easy to customize and respin. You don't typically get that with closed source. Thomas -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Red Hat - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk7AWw0ACgkQmzle50YHwaBYSgCfTrrDnZT2qSe59VlBq/+6hLGT BWkAn3K3mnYmPJYCqRInqLMGLnvArCnq =sM6g -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
On 11/14/2011 04:53 AM, JB wrote: > > First you would release them for the benefit of Fedora. > > Then you would subject them, if any, to selection and election process > according to status and election rules as described. I have no idea what you are talking about but please describe the governance structure of Fedora first before suggesting improvements. Otherwise, you can't be taken seriously. Rahul -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 We should probably refrain from feeding the troll. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJOwFLYAAoJEF1Xw4ZWTEoJPH8QAKSmeG0Jfo3ZwwAAD8SGSA4y rH3aR61QeEOEEJNF35RIr93YirR+vPR47Cx28SK81JfCBXIW3AyZR049xdDy28ML cSmg11XcMgQ4uWHZpaQgQvF5KZiljKYEFE8lCWHv+ydcXWsZmaB7YMhm1WaT6uuj tzK0Cfn3zSD/gtkW+jP5lSIaUN2d4qDTDMRCj4Mue1grevvkU6ewIvyj95DoafB+ IRWGnjSauG2KnWW1ginNB4yNOJXUOb8GoB9b8FeUlGByJ3a5e6w/BWodazVTyHl4 vgyIPN8qk/5yBDBK+7rMLphKAQloGNLc2fl3CJEiupWPBcTMOts8p8zoryGPFPRo Yzvyg93/Rb94L7TzpoaI3MNRfzNQiFGWxY9QmyIRNgZaYpCUl6iVlPRc21I5XWDI ux3Ov7TijHBVLWnddnbvXjs5jmKydwOhPOfxs+7AZbB2YpRpCZ2j3vsNJVsfsWi8 u7Wq8bqLZDaf4g1OETgnGNgyVKnptp/YZSxRXmU1nsBweOjCIJo7D8tuBb94PlrH eVI/8p8U43SZBulrYxYzh6Lz5Z6QLiB1UFi9J0nw7oXRMaZAlCsJrrhLgDD069m5 NUTfqFc4p6fua9aFoJHJxNlV1+Jy72Au8hupBJFqGtEu7mfWQIYxhOW+sRohqX4p Sd3S8jY+Wzaf9pFI7XMf =Amtx -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
Does Fedora 'need' saving? From who? Or will it keep on innovating for years to come? I sincerely hope so! Roger -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
Rahul Sundaram gmail.com> writes: > > > On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 3:58 AM, JB gmail.com> wrote: > > > With regard to composition of governing bodies, it is not that Fedora would > start from scratch. > > > Let's try again. You reply doesn't seem to show any understanding of Fedora's > current governance structure? Can you describe that at all?Rahul > First you would release them for the benefit of Fedora. Then you would subject them, if any, to selection and election process according to status and election rules as described. The remaining seats would be acquired thru the same elections by competent people on this list. If you believe there are none here, then you should close this project now. Do not argue with the stats. They tell you the truth. JB -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 11/13/2011 09:44 AM, inode0 wrote: >> Red Hat as a company is poised to be a billion dollar company this year >> (FY12). The FY 2006 earnings were $278.3 million.[1] That's a 4X >> increase in just 6 years. That's *amazing* growth. > > What does this have to do with Fedora or the relationship between Red > Hat and Fedora? The OP said "ZOMG Google searches on Fedora are decreasing, FEDORA NEEDS SAVING!!!" By that logic, since Google searches on Red Hat are going down, Red Hat must be failing as well. I was pointing out that the number of Google searches on something is not a good indicator of its health. Thomas -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Red Hat - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk7ATR0ACgkQmzle50YHwaCDYACdGOvAL9OHcSUSMeQTdQjAUAVd pZAAnRa7QGzfpTA5EE0KfS76G6Rod/bD =gDVk -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 3:58 AM, JB wrote: > > > With regard to composition of governing bodies, it is not that Fedora would > start from scratch. > Let's try again. You reply doesn't seem to show any understanding of Fedora's current governance structure? Can you describe that at all? Rahul -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
Rahul Sundaram gmail.com> writes: > > On 11/14/2011 01:04 AM, JB wrote: > > > > > Perhaps no fork would be required. > > Even if it is "required", it is a lot of work and I am not sure anyone > with just a opinion would be willing to sign up for it. > > RH could release tight control of Fedora > > for its own interest. > > Be more specific. Describe in a lot more detail what changes you want > to see and how you are willing to help. > > Rahul This is actually pretty simple, for me at least :-) You start with governing status by adding some important statements that would define Fedora uneqivocally in UNIX-like camp (by explicitly stating it in context of project's goals and people's participation) and thus create its most important identity that would attract like-minded and capable people. With regard to composition of governing bodies, it is not that Fedora would start from scratch. There are already capable people in and around Fedora (current and former members) who would continue their work. I would make provision for formal participation of users by reserving seat(s) for them. There are users on this list who have practical experience in all aspects of system administration, software development, management. They are mature, conservative, progressive, balanced, with qualities. There is one important assumption here - they should not become candidates to Fedora governing bodies in order to obtain employment with RH (you would want to avoid the repeat of the current situation, with all its implications, wouldn't you ?). Also, one should be clear - an election could not be an act of filling in free space by people who would be speechless or subservient to some real or imaginary authority. They would represent classes of members and non-members (devs, users, etc) by first subjecting themselves to their scrutiny and selection criteria, and next having their voice heard in decision processes. I am a fan of a so called "core team" concept a la FreeBSD, kind of meritocracy, but selected in popular elections, on a rotational and longer term basis. I would create a body of "wise men" (elected for a fixed term, without executive powers, but accountable to nobody !). They would serve as an advisory and balancing voice in the background. They would have the right to participate in all formal bodies' activities. One important condition: they would not be allowed to be "plonked" by random and clueless rednecks ! There would be a restriction on a number of people representing a particular continent, company, or organization at a time. People would have to learn how to be responsible in their election choices, but perhaps some mechanism should be put in place to eliminate any attempts to monopolize the process or to misuse it by silly or dangerous people. You would build in checks and balances, but without compromising executive effectiveness, or allowing any kind of corruption, or "rule of mob". JB -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
> like maybe there's some round hole/square peg going on here. Fedora, > almost by definition, will be bleeding edge and therefore, somewhat > buggy. But, really, our version of "buggy" is *so* much better than I > deal with as regards most closed source commercial code, it's not even > funny. This is the "Its ok to torture people providing we do it a bit less than the bad guys" argument. I don't buy it. Fedora should aspire to quality. Yes being leading edge means it'll be a bit rougher unavoidably and it's always going to hit a few "doh" cases that look really silly and got missed. Yes if you want a quite life you should be running Centos. That doesn't mean Fedora should be sloppy because once your bugginess passes a certain point it becomes impossible to work with. Every time you try and fix something it breaks somewhere else. Fedora is a long way from that at the moment but it's slowly slipping that way in F15 and F16. It's just something which in the normal order of things is going to create pushback and complaining which should correct the slippage. Nothing needs "saving" just a bit of process focus tweakage. > expectation that you're going to mod the installation to your needs. If > I wanted a "click next, next, next, take what we damned well tell you > to, and like it" installation, I would run closed source. Well I expect open source to be at least as good as closed source. So if the closed source can get 'just hit next' right, the open source ought to be able to do. It's not exactly hard, Even Ubuntu pretty much manages that one. "Just hit next" is a *feature*. It's a sign of good design, and of quality. It's also a really good stability feature because most users just hit next so you know which path to test the crap out of. Alan -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 3:01 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > On 11/14/2011 02:12 AM, inode0 wrote: >> User #1 is from the user base professed by the project to be its >> target audience. User #2 is more from the enterprise consumer side of >> Fedora's community. My suggestion was to be more open about the >> importance of both of these user bases to help resolve the bad >> communication between them if nothing else. >> >> Sometimes innovation is driven by enterprise use cases. Sometimes that >> innovation affects Fedora users generally, even the ones that don't >> care about enterprise use cases. > > Yes but the specific example of desktop user being affected by new > clustering technologies didn't make sense to me and is poorly chosen > IMO. I don't think you have found a way to explain it either. If you > want to talk about conflicts, say the way SELinux was introduced might > be a much better example. It is important to recognize however that > sometimes technologies don't fit neatly into "enterprise" vs otherwise. > For instance, systemd fits both categories just fine. I wasn't using clustering as an example of something affecting a user's desktop. I am not going to try to explain it because that was never my intention. And the only reason I didn't bring up SELinux or any other specific innovation is because I don't want to argue about the innovation. I wanted to make a more abstract point. I think you now do understand what I was trying to convey so we can let it go now. John -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 11/13/2011 02:42 PM, inode0 wrote: > On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 12:32 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> On 11/13/2011 11:57 PM, inode0 wrote: >>> They are affected by many of the changes. That is why. >> >> How is a desktop user affected by new clustering technology? You aren't >> making any sense to me now > > Let's start over. > > User #1 says "Fedora is getting worse each release." > User #2 says "You are nuts, Fedora is great. Look at all this > innovation - virtualization, clustering, etc." > > I was pointing out that one problem we have that this demonstrates is > two big user communities. Sure they overlap but they are different. > Both of the above views of Fedora make perfect sense at the same time. > > User #1 is from the user base professed by the project to be its > target audience. Is he? I don't see anything at http://fedoraproject.org/en/about-fedora that says it's specifically targeted at consumer-class users. In fact, if you look at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Overview#User_base_.28also_known_as_target_audience.29 it makes pretty clear that there is no one class of users. > User #2 is more from the enterprise consumer side of > Fedora's community. My suggestion was to be more open about the > importance of both of these user bases to help resolve the bad > communication between them if nothing else. I think it's pretty clearly pointed out already - Fedora is not a one size fits all, and that's what some people expect it to be. Fedora targets many (or maybe one very wide) audiences. I think the real beauty of Fedora is the ability to customize the heck out of it. I run it on everything from my 4- and 8-year old daughter's laptops to a lab cluster with iSCSI storage and virtual machines as clustered resources. It's *incredibly* flexible. Of course, the builds are radically different between those laptops and the cluster, but the install media is identical. That's the strength and beauty of this distribution. If I expected it to be a one size fits all, I bet I'd be disappointed, too. Now, I absolutely understand the OP's and others' echoed concerns and frustrations. I don't like bugs any more than the next guy. But I feel like maybe there's some round hole/square peg going on here. Fedora, almost by definition, will be bleeding edge and therefore, somewhat buggy. But, really, our version of "buggy" is *so* much better than I deal with as regards most closed source commercial code, it's not even funny. > Sometimes innovation is driven by enterprise use cases. Sometimes that > innovation affects Fedora users generally, even the ones that don't > care about enterprise use cases. While those in our expressed target > audience See above - I think there are some assumption mismatches here. > need to understand that sometimes they will be subjected to > some things that they really don't care about for the good of the > larger Fedora user community. And those driving that innovation need > to keep in mind the effect it has on our target base ... > so they aren't > overwhelmed by what they see as needless change that is just making > their use of Fedora unpleasant to the point they stop. I *think* we're actually agreeing here in many ways, John. My perception of what the target audience is may very well be wrong, but it seems to me that it's been very clearly defined as "damn near everyone," with an expectation that you're going to mod the installation to your needs. If I wanted a "click next, next, next, take what we damned well tell you to, and like it" installation, I would run closed source. - -- Thomas -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Red Hat - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk7AMYIACgkQmzle50YHwaDcQwCeI9zxsud/GY3mHb/CBWy94du0 PJMAnRduvFgibwpmd8F0J0MpeuYZVqkY =vTeE -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
On 11/14/2011 02:12 AM, inode0 wrote: > User #1 is from the user base professed by the project to be its > target audience. User #2 is more from the enterprise consumer side of > Fedora's community. My suggestion was to be more open about the > importance of both of these user bases to help resolve the bad > communication between them if nothing else. > > Sometimes innovation is driven by enterprise use cases. Sometimes that > innovation affects Fedora users generally, even the ones that don't > care about enterprise use cases. Yes but the specific example of desktop user being affected by new clustering technologies didn't make sense to me and is poorly chosen IMO. I don't think you have found a way to explain it either. If you want to talk about conflicts, say the way SELinux was introduced might be a much better example. It is important to recognize however that sometimes technologies don't fit neatly into "enterprise" vs otherwise. For instance, systemd fits both categories just fine. Rahul -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 12:32 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > On 11/13/2011 11:57 PM, inode0 wrote: >> They are affected by many of the changes. That is why. > > How is a desktop user affected by new clustering technology? You aren't > making any sense to me now Let's start over. User #1 says "Fedora is getting worse each release." User #2 says "You are nuts, Fedora is great. Look at all this innovation - virtualization, clustering, etc." I was pointing out that one problem we have that this demonstrates is two big user communities. Sure they overlap but they are different. Both of the above views of Fedora make perfect sense at the same time. User #1 is from the user base professed by the project to be its target audience. User #2 is more from the enterprise consumer side of Fedora's community. My suggestion was to be more open about the importance of both of these user bases to help resolve the bad communication between them if nothing else. Sometimes innovation is driven by enterprise use cases. Sometimes that innovation affects Fedora users generally, even the ones that don't care about enterprise use cases. While those in our expressed target audience need to understand that sometimes they will be subjected to some things that they really don't care about for the good of the larger Fedora user community. And those driving that innovation need to keep in mind the effect it has on our target base so they aren't overwhelmed by what they see as needless change that is just making their use of Fedora unpleasant to the point they stop. John -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
Thomas Cameron camerontech.com> writes: > > > On 11/13/2011 11:16 AM, JB wrote: > > ? yahoo.co.jp> writes: > > > >> ... > >> The IT market is massively overweight, > >> overvalued and engages in enormously wasteful development practices > >> right now. Open source development for the most common of software > >> system elements + a revenue stream based on hardware sales and computing > >> services provision (a very broad category worth huge money on its own) = > >> a better model for the customer. IBM knows this. Intel isn't too happy > >> about this. RedHat has placed itself at the most critical part of the > >> process as the servicer. Microsoft is done creating success and is > >> scrambling to now not create failure -- which is a really bad operating > >> mode for a business (IBM was there once itself). That's just good > >> business on RedHat's part and indicates a mature market understanding on > >> the part of IBM. > > > > IBM created RH > > .and, with that, you get dropped into the tinfoil-hat wearing > filter. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_hat#History > That's not what I meant: ... "In 1993 Bob Young incorporated the ACC Corporation, a catalog business that sold Linux and UNIX software accessories. In 1994 Marc Ewing created his own Linux distribution, which he named Red Hat Linux[7]" ... This *is* what I meant: ... "On December 14, 1998, Red Hat made its first divestment, in which parts of the company are sold to another company, when Intel and Netscape acquired an undisclosed minority stake. The next year, on March 9, 1999, Compaq, IBM, Dell and Novell each acquired undisclosed minority stakes in Red Hat." ... "Red Hat went public on August 11, 1999, achieving the eighth-biggest first-day gain in the history of Wall Street." ... Can you see IBM in there ? Who was the first major company who recognized Linux potential as understood by it and put its weight behind it ? And why ? Out of love ? Who became (after its reorganization) the major player in computer services ? Did you really say that ? > ... Thomas, get your act together :-) JB -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 11/13/2011 08:30 AM, Alan Cox wrote: >> Erm, no. Each Fedora release has brought in numerous technical >> improvements. Virtualization, clustering, directory services, more and >> more features and performance per release. > > That's a politicians answer. It's completely ignoring the point raised. Respectfully, Alan, it's not. Fedora's charter has always been a place for new technologies to get *tested* and considered for inclusion in the paid distro, RHEL. Are there warts? Obviously. 0-day releases buggy? In some feature sets - absolutely. But in general, I've found each release of Fedora to contain more and better features than the previous. I make no claim it comes out perfect - it certainly doesn't. But the OP's intimation is that each release is a bigger train wreck than the last, and I just don't see that as being the case when you take into account how many changes and new components there are. To be clear - I don't have the statistics and I'm not going to take the time to go chase them down, but if you were to look at the rate of bugs per feature set, I would be surprised if they were higher today than they were with e.g. FC6. > It doesn't matter how many features a new release has if it doesn't even > run properly on lots of systems. Ah, but what is "lots of systems?" Back in, e.g. the FC6 times, there were MANY fewer users, with a corresponding lower number of systems. ISTR people were a lot more careful about buying hardware that Linux would work on. Today, with so much larger a user population, and so many more systems, is the percentage of problems any higher than the FC6 time? I don't know, but I'd be surprised. > Most of the features are also > irrelevant to most of the users. In F15 you could at least make the case > that Gnome3 was relevant to users even if some hated it and chunks of the > code were at best prototype state. (and I'd note the Phoronix survey data > suggests that Gnome 3 is rather more liked than some might think from > list traffic) They are very relevant to me, but to be fair, I do work in a larger enterprise computing environment. To me, Fedora is a fantastic platform for seeing what's coming. Again, I won't say there aren't issues with each release. I just don't think that it's really getting worse. In my experience (I've installed Fedora on literally hundreds of systems from Dell, HP, IBM and tons of whiteboxes, running both desktop and server loads), I've had *significantly* less hardware problems than older versions of Fedora. > But clustering and directory services, like forcing LVM on hapless end > users are really irrelevant to most. LVM wasn't a big deal for those who > knew better - disable it on install and your disk I/O improves, and > its become vaguely relevant with crypto. All of this is painting the > fences and hanging bling on a core product which is getting a bit > wobblier every release I won't argue that LVM is not the best choice for high disk I/O workloads, but the convenience of LVM for average users likely outweighs the performance hit. > It's bloated One might argue it's got more features, and you can easily trim out the ones you don't like. > It picks bad user defaults Depends on who you consider the target audience. Does it choose bad defaults for heavy I/O server use? Probably. Does it allow you to closely configure the settings for specialty use? Yes, and I'd argue much better than most OSs out there. > It ships a default desktop which burns CPU horribly OK, you got me there, but remember back when KDE 4 shipped. Don't you remember the howls of righteous indignation? Now my KDE-using friends are back to touting KDE as the best thing since sliced bread, and the friendly desktop banter is back in full swing. The only way that happened was for KDE 4 to get released, warts and all, and the community to beat it into submission. >> And what? All the engineers at Red Hat develop new tech in Fedora. Where >> do you propose those new technologies come from if Red Hat splits off? > > Perhaps the Red Hat engineers could QA their new technologies a bit > more before including them ? They are QAing their software, by putting it out into the community for review and comment. Beware the bleeding edge, it's sharp. > I don't buy the "big problem" claim here. Several other releases have > been a bit wobbly especially out of the box first release. Nor do a few > crash reports in themselves form a statistically valid sample. See above - I am not surprised they are "wobbly," but if you look at any Fedora release after a few weeks, it's very solid. As expected. > I do think that as has happened a couple of times before now it's time > Fedora spent a release or two being more conservative on new toys and > fixing the ones it already has. Fair point. >>> Linux distros: >>> http://w3techs.com/technologies/history_details/os-linux/all/y >> >> Without knowing a *lot* about how this information w
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
On 11/14/2011 01:04 AM, JB wrote: > > Perhaps no fork would be required. Even if it is "required", it is a lot of work and I am not sure anyone with just a opinion would be willing to sign up for it. RH could release tight control of Fedora > for its own interest. Be more specific. Describe in a lot more detail what changes you want to see and how you are willing to help. Rahul -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
Bruno Wolff III wolff.to> writes: > > On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 12:45:34 +, > JB gmail.com> wrote: > > Some from an independent Fedora devs, others from other distros by > > adoption of > > those that are useful and not conflicting with its goals. > > That is unlikely to happen. More likely the fork would just die. Perhaps no fork would be required. RH could release tight control of Fedora for its own interest. Otherwise, I am afraid, RH is forcing Fedora into irrelevance. There is a need for an independent distro like Fedora (of a RH-like base) that can breathe, function, and be governed on its own, and define up front or acquire these important characteristics: - uncompromised adherence to UNIX-like principles of development (no chance of compromise here - a matter of writing it into its status) - identity of its own (yes, that means getting rid of the de facto "testing bed for RH" one) - being attractive to devs and users who would share the above UNIX-like goal - be modern but stable by choice (offer more recent kernel in comparison to RHEL/CentOS/SL, together with more thoughtful choice of software), which would fill in the current void in RH-like base of distros Such Fedora would actually be helpful to RH-like base among distros. JB -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 11/13/2011 11:16 AM, JB wrote: > ? yahoo.co.jp> writes: > >> ... >> The IT market is massively overweight, >> overvalued and engages in enormously wasteful development practices >> right now. Open source development for the most common of software >> system elements + a revenue stream based on hardware sales and computing >> services provision (a very broad category worth huge money on its own) = >> a better model for the customer. IBM knows this. Intel isn't too happy >> about this. RedHat has placed itself at the most critical part of the >> process as the servicer. Microsoft is done creating success and is >> scrambling to now not create failure -- which is a really bad operating >> mode for a business (IBM was there once itself). That's just good >> business on RedHat's part and indicates a mature market understanding on >> the part of IBM. > > IBM created RH .and, with that, you get dropped into the tinfoil-hat wearing filter. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_hat#History > to cover low-end market (RH providing services), eliminating > pressures from that side by making life miserable for more formidable than RH > companies and IBM competitors, itself concentrating on lucrative > mid-to-high-end (mostly mainframe once again, please) side. > So, back to the future for IBM ... :-) I guess that's why Gartner and IDC both indicate that Windows and Linux are the only two mainstream players going forward. Proprietary Unix is on the wane. The only two OSs with significant growth are Windows and Linux. See e.g. http://www.gartner.com/it/page.jsp?id=1654914 Sorry, but whining and making absurd claims like you've made make it really hard to take you seriously. Thomas -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Red Hat - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk7AGs0ACgkQmzle50YHwaCZAQCcCaYIkVs4XQ7TbaERCfrrbbDB NeEAoJWQjLQFTAmsEpJB3IwYney7rqZr =Jrt4 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
On 11/14/2011 12:16 AM, inode0 wrote: > On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 12:32 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> On 11/13/2011 11:57 PM, inode0 wrote: >>> They are affected by many of the changes. That is why. >> >> How is a desktop user affected by new clustering technology? You aren't >> making any sense to me now > > You really can't think of any changes that were driven by enterprise > use cases that affect Fedora desktop users? You specifically asked about new clustering technologies and desktop users. I want to know how they are related and why any desktop user should care about them or be affected by them as you claimed. I can't think of the answer and you aren't explaining why you said they are being affected by the change either. Did you misspeak? Rahul -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 12:32 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > On 11/13/2011 11:57 PM, inode0 wrote: >> They are affected by many of the changes. That is why. > > How is a desktop user affected by new clustering technology? You aren't > making any sense to me now You really can't think of any changes that were driven by enterprise use cases that affect Fedora desktop users? Examples have been sprinkled throughout this thread already and while I think all of them end up either being beneficial to or neutral in their effect eventually to Fedora desktop users they don't begin life that way. John -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
On 11/13/2011 11:57 PM, inode0 wrote: > > They are affected by many of the changes. That is why. How is a desktop user affected by new clustering technology? You aren't making any sense to me now > I live in a larger ecosystem so of course I do care. But in this > context saying other communities share a problem we'd like to fix in > ours only gives us an excuse to ignore it because we are no different > from the others. It isn't a excuse to ignore it but looking at it from the broader perspective is important to even understand it fully. If you say you don't care, then you wouldn't know what other communities are doing about it and whether Fedora can look at picking up the right solutions. Rahul -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
On 11/13/2011 01:17 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > On 11/13/2011 11:34 PM, inode0 wrote: value to the Fedora desktop user are two very different things. >>> >>> False dichotomy. >> >> It is only false if you assume I meant the groups to be mutually >> exclusive, which I did not mean since I am an example of a user in >> both groups. We do however have a lot of users that do fall primarily >> into one group or the other. How many fedora desktop end users do >> backflips about new clustering technology in Fedora? > > Why the hell would any desktop user be bothered about things they don't > use? I have no idea why this is a problem for anybody at all. So yes, > I see a false dichotomy being preached. > >> I'm not interested in other large distributions and their problems. > > You should be. It doesn't make sense to look at communities in > isolation when they are impacting and being impacted by a ecosystem. > > Rahul Look at the case. Fedora is a bleeding edge release where new stuff is published for testing and eventual incorporation into RHEL. If you don't want to be a bleeding edge user/tester then stay away from current Fedora releases. For example, I like to have the newest software, but I don't want to be the primary tester. I prefer to hang back a release or two, where most or the bugs have been found and fixed, before I encounter them and loose data that I find important. In the mean time you can research the newest releases to see if you want to go there. I've don't like the looks of what I see in F15 or F16 at the moment so I'll probably skip those releases. -- °v° /(_)\ ^ ^ Mark LaPierre Registerd Linux user No #267004 www.counter.li.org -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 12:17 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > On 11/13/2011 11:34 PM, inode0 wrote: value to the Fedora desktop user are two very different things. >>> >>> False dichotomy. >> >> It is only false if you assume I meant the groups to be mutually >> exclusive, which I did not mean since I am an example of a user in >> both groups. We do however have a lot of users that do fall primarily >> into one group or the other. How many fedora desktop end users do >> backflips about new clustering technology in Fedora? > > Why the hell would any desktop user be bothered about things they don't > use? I have no idea why this is a problem for anybody at all. So yes, > I see a false dichotomy being preached. They are affected by many of the changes. That is why. >> I'm not interested in other large distributions and their problems. > > You should be. It doesn't make sense to look at communities in > isolation when they are impacting and being impacted by a ecosystem. I live in a larger ecosystem so of course I do care. But in this context saying other communities share a problem we'd like to fix in ours only gives us an excuse to ignore it because we are no different from the others. John -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
On 11/13/2011 11:34 PM, inode0 wrote: >>> value to the Fedora desktop user are two very different things. >> >> False dichotomy. > > It is only false if you assume I meant the groups to be mutually > exclusive, which I did not mean since I am an example of a user in > both groups. We do however have a lot of users that do fall primarily > into one group or the other. How many fedora desktop end users do > backflips about new clustering technology in Fedora? Why the hell would any desktop user be bothered about things they don't use? I have no idea why this is a problem for anybody at all. So yes, I see a false dichotomy being preached. > I'm not interested in other large distributions and their problems. You should be. It doesn't make sense to look at communities in isolation when they are impacting and being impacted by a ecosystem. Rahul -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
Alan Cox lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> writes: > ... > But clustering and directory services, like forcing LVM on hapless end > users are really irrelevant to most. LVM wasn't a big deal for those who > knew better - disable it on install and your disk I/O improves, ... Be blessed :-) You reminded me of a very important post-installation step. Quite few services that qualified. > ... Btw, I thought that you would be more articulate about the new Fedora: - preferably with a rolling release feature (more natural by avoiding those adrenaline ups and downs in distro activities) - forward-looking - yes, but more reasonable in its choice of projects and features - more stable due to above and by delivering when ready - attracting more devs, also converts from other distros who are often looking for home but are turned off by RH total control - JB -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 11:51 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > On 11/13/2011 09:14 PM, inode0 wrote: > >> You are both correct but you are looking at the result from different >> perspectives. Many technical improvements do happen and they are >> admired by those who *later* use them in an enterprise distribution. >> At the same time many of those same improvements are despised by >> direct users of Fedora. Bringing value to the enterprise and bringing >> value to the Fedora desktop user are two very different things. > > False dichotomy. It is only false if you assume I meant the groups to be mutually exclusive, which I did not mean since I am an example of a user in both groups. We do however have a lot of users that do fall primarily into one group or the other. How many fedora desktop end users do backflips about new clustering technology in Fedora? We need to appreciate that some of what Fedora provides is meant for me and some isn't, whoever "me" is and get along. > As a full time user of Fedora for several years, I value new > technologies directly in Fedora and I am proud these same technologies > have a wide impact in other distributions and in the enterprise in > future releases. I see it as a important part of Fedora's culture. > >> One thing that is meaningful is that the Fedora Project has many >> people who believe Fedora is becoming less relevant to its defined >> target audience. And those who believe this aren't just end users of >> Fedora. > > Sure. Point me to any large distribution who doesn't have such users or > contributors. I'm not interested in other large distributions and their problems. Fedora recently had a public identity crisis which seemed to largely be caused by this, and for a previous poster to suggest it just isn't true or doesn't exist seems to completely ignore our very recent history. John -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
> "Joe" == Joe Zeff writes: Joe> I've used preupgrade on both my desktop and laptop for the last Joe> several upgrades and all has gone well. Yes, I did have to Joe> expand /boot once and once I had to tell grub to start the Joe> upgrade at boot, but compared to the type of thing you're Joe> talking about, that's trivial. And, I'd be willing to bet Joe> money (and give fairly good odds) that the vast majority of Joe> Fedora users who use preupgrade have the same experience. Not for me. Indeed, F14-F16 is documented as not working yet on the F16 problems page. -- Colin Adams Preston Lancashire () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
On 11/13/2011 10:41 PM, Alan Cox wrote: > >> Those are *not* just statistics on downloads. > > I appreciate that - but popularity is a lagging indicator in general. Whether popularity should even be a consideration depends on the goals of the project however I should also note the statistics page wasn't created to gauge popularity either. Rahul -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
On 11/13/2011 09:14 PM, inode0 wrote: > You are both correct but you are looking at the result from different > perspectives. Many technical improvements do happen and they are > admired by those who *later* use them in an enterprise distribution. > At the same time many of those same improvements are despised by > direct users of Fedora. Bringing value to the enterprise and bringing > value to the Fedora desktop user are two very different things. False dichotomy. As a full time user of Fedora for several years, I value new technologies directly in Fedora and I am proud these same technologies have a wide impact in other distributions and in the enterprise in future releases. I see it as a important part of Fedora's culture. > One thing that is meaningful is that the Fedora Project has many > people who believe Fedora is becoming less relevant to its defined > target audience. And those who believe this aren't just end users of > Fedora. Sure. Point me to any large distribution who doesn't have such users or contributors. Rahul -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
On 11/13/2011 05:35 PM, Sam Varshavchik wrote: > Ralf Corsepius writes: > >> On 11/13/2011 03:45 PM, Bruno Wolff III wrote: >> > On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 07:15:20 +, >> > JB wrote: >> >> >> >> every Fedora release is going downhill ... >> >> > If you are referring to quality, I disagree that they are going >> downhill. >> >> Well, having spent most of this weekend with installing F16, I don't >> sense any change in quality. > > It depends on where you're standing. If you follow the well-trodden > path, of always doing a fresh install, not upgrading, and always taking > the default filesystem layout, and only importing /home from the > previous version, you'll be fine. That's what I did (BTW: Older openSUSE and Ubuntu installation meanwhile openly ask their users to upgrade "on-the-fly"). The first issue was anaconda lumping together the swap partitions of the other linux installations, I have installed in parallel and anacondas's "custom disk layout utility" and it's custom partitioning GUI me not allowing the disk-layout I had wanted. Afterwards, during installation, NetworkManager failed to bring the NIC up. Later, I more or less was caught by issue others already discussed, earlier last week: T * The broken autofs startup script issue, * many issues with named (Meanwhile mostly working for me, but still having issues related to dnssec and IPv4) * broken package deps in some packages (e.g. system-config-bind) * finally many problems related to systemd ... Currently bugging me: ... me not being able to get my parallel printer up, ... not being able to launch vsftpd through systemd, ... and some unfixed kernel bugs, which have been haunting me for several fedora releases. ... On the positive side: One very nagging bug, I had reported years ago, finally seems fixed in F16's thunderbird. SELinux is not a bad as it used to be. > But dare to venture off the beaten path, and, it's getting ugly. And I'm > not talking about anything weird. Even something as innocent as having > everything on raid1, will result in an upgrade to F16 (or even > installing it fresh, btw) ending up as an unbootable brick. ... some time during manual post-installation cleanup, I was facing a failing X server. With F16, I ended up with a bricked system instead on a console (AFAICT, the culprit is systemd) - Great progress! The first bootup brick with Linux, I have experienced in for ca. 10 years ;) > Having > listed that as a known issue, is not an answer. Anaconda, in recent > releases, have become advanced enough so even generally > non-sophisticated users, with only a minimum of technical know-how, can > build mdraid arrays. ... well, try opensuse's install for comparison, unlike Fedora's installer, it allows many ways of "fancy partitioning". > It can be argued whether or not Fedora is losing mindshare, or not, but > stuff like that is not helpful. Well, my view: Fedora 15 and 16 are infected with an amount of poor and/or immature pieces of SW which are rending Fedora a bad choice for ordinary endusers and too be very demanding to "advanced users". That said, I can relate to everybody who doesn't choose Fedora. Ralf -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
夜神 岩男 yahoo.co.jp> writes: > ... > The IT market is massively overweight, > overvalued and engages in enormously wasteful development practices > right now. Open source development for the most common of software > system elements + a revenue stream based on hardware sales and computing > services provision (a very broad category worth huge money on its own) = > a better model for the customer. IBM knows this. Intel isn't too happy > about this. RedHat has placed itself at the most critical part of the > process as the servicer. Microsoft is done creating success and is > scrambling to now not create failure -- which is a really bad operating > mode for a business (IBM was there once itself). That's just good > business on RedHat's part and indicates a mature market understanding on > the part of IBM. IBM created RH to cover low-end market (RH providing services), eliminating pressures from that side by making life miserable for more formidable than RH companies and IBM competitors, itself concentrating on lucrative mid-to-high-end (mostly mainframe once again, please) side. So, back to the future for IBM ... :-) > ... JB -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
> Those are *not* just statistics on downloads. I appreciate that - but popularity is a lagging indicator in general. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
On 11/13/2011 08:35 AM, Sam Varshavchik wrote: > It depends on where you're standing. If you follow the well-trodden > path, of always doing a fresh install, not upgrading, and always taking > the default filesystem layout, and only importing /home from the > previous version, you'll be fine. I've used preupgrade on both my desktop and laptop for the last several upgrades and all has gone well. Yes, I did have to expand /boot once and once I had to tell grub to start the upgrade at boot, but compared to the type of thing you're talking about, that's trivial. And, I'd be willing to bet money (and give fairly good odds) that the vast majority of Fedora users who use preupgrade have the same experience. Why? Because if it weren't true, preupgrade would only be available (if at all) from some third-party repository and not recommended for the faint of heart. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
On 11/13/2011 08:21 AM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > Finally, yes, I have to agree, in comparison to F15 (which I consider > the worst Fedora ever) I sense some "quality" improvements. Which is why I skipped it. My impression is that the teething troubles with Gnome 3/Gnome Shell and the new systemd combined to make F15 considerably more problematic than it should have been. Letting one or the other of them wait until F16 might have been a better idea. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
Ralf Corsepius writes: On 11/13/2011 03:45 PM, Bruno Wolff III wrote: > On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 07:15:20 +, >JB wrote: >> >> every Fedora release is going downhill ... > If you are referring to quality, I disagree that they are going downhill. Well, having spent most of this weekend with installing F16, I don't sense any change in quality. It depends on where you're standing. If you follow the well-trodden path, of always doing a fresh install, not upgrading, and always taking the default filesystem layout, and only importing /home from the previous version, you'll be fine. But dare to venture off the beaten path, and, it's getting ugly. And I'm not talking about anything weird. Even something as innocent as having everything on raid1, will result in an upgrade to F16 (or even installing it fresh, btw) ending up as an unbootable brick. Having listed that as a known issue, is not an answer. Anaconda, in recent releases, have become advanced enough so even generally non-sophisticated users, with only a minimum of technical know-how, can build mdraid arrays. But those users are going to be screwed if they dare to go with F16, and the steps for remediation are well beyond what I'd expect them to have. It can be argued whether or not Fedora is losing mindshare, or not, but stuff like that is not helpful. pgp09MzoczXrE.pgp Description: PGP signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
On 11/13/2011 03:45 PM, Bruno Wolff III wrote: > On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 07:15:20 +, >JB wrote: >> >> every Fedora release is going downhill ... > If you are referring to quality, I disagree that they are going downhill. Well, having spent most of this weekend with installing F16, I don't sense any change in quality. Some issues have been resolved, others been ignored, new ones have been added. As with all previous releases, some of the "novelties" Fedora is infamous for are not working smoothly. Finally, yes, I have to agree, in comparison to F15 (which I consider the worst Fedora ever) I sense some "quality" improvements. > If you are referring to mindshare amoung people that use linux, that > seems likely to be true. Ubuntu and Mint seem to be pretty popular now. Right, to the public, Fedora has become a "freak's niche". >> Time for Fedora to decouple from RH and become quality UNIX-like distro on >> its own ? > > I don't see how that could help. Fedora needs more contributors, not less. That's one possible conclusion. However, if you follow the OP's rationale, one logical conclusion would be "Fedora needs less RH". Another conclusion would be: Fedora should contain less experimental SW. Ralf -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 1:50 AM, Thomas Cameron wrote: > On 11/13/2011 01:15 AM, JB wrote: >> Hi, >> >> every Fedora release is going downhill ... > > Erm, no. Each Fedora release has brought in numerous technical > improvements. Virtualization, clustering, directory services, more and > more features and performance per release. You are both correct but you are looking at the result from different perspectives. Many technical improvements do happen and they are admired by those who *later* use them in an enterprise distribution. At the same time many of those same improvements are despised by direct users of Fedora. Bringing value to the enterprise and bringing value to the Fedora desktop user are two very different things. This disconnect I see almost every day within the Fedora community which has large groups of people from both camps. I've said it before and I am going to say it again now - any definition of the target audience of Fedora that doesn't include enterprise users is wrong as it is clear to everyone looking that enterprise users are certainly an important part of the target audience. Enterprise users need to understand Fedora isn't just for them and Fedora users need to understand Fedora isn't just for them either. It is a corporate/community project, both parts of that relationship have a stake and both need to see benefits and progress that affect them in positive ways for the relationship to be sustained. >> Time for Fedora to decouple from RH and become quality UNIX-like distro on >> its own ? > > And what? All the engineers at Red Hat develop new tech in Fedora. Where > do you propose those new technologies come from if Red Hat splits off? While I am not agreeing with the suggested split, the Red Hat developers won't stop working upstream as they do now if Fedora doesn't exist as it does today. Red Hat's contributions of new technologies really aren't Fedora specific. Those happen upstream and are included in Fedora and other distributions as those distributions choose. Trying to make them Fedora specific isn't a good way to make contributions of new technologies. >> Linux distros: >> http://w3techs.com/technologies/history_details/os-linux/all/y > > Without knowing a *lot* about how this information was gathered, it's > meaningless. > >> Fedora, Red Hat: >> http://www.google.com/trends?q=fedora%2C+redhat&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0 > > These trends are pretty meaningless. Less searches on a technology don't > necessarily mean the technology is on the wane. It could very well be > that people are more comfortable so they're not Googling as much. Or > that they know to go straight to the most popular Fedora sites or the > Red Hat portal. One thing that is meaningful is that the Fedora Project has many people who believe Fedora is becoming less relevant to its defined target audience. And those who believe this aren't just end users of Fedora. > Red Hat as a company is poised to be a billion dollar company this year > (FY12). The FY 2006 earnings were $278.3 million.[1] That's a 4X > increase in just 6 years. That's *amazing* growth. What does this have to do with Fedora or the relationship between Red Hat and Fedora? > Look at things like http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Statistics, which > indicate that downloads and torrents are going up with each release, not > down. Maybe look at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legacy_statistics to see that downloads and torrents are not going up with each release. While these statistics don't really concern me one way or the other, we do have periods of growth and decline that is evident in the available statistics. John -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
On 11/13/2011 09:30 AM, Alan Cox wrote: > That's a politicians answer. It's completely ignoring the point raised. > > With all due respect, the original poster appeared not to have much of a point. Statements like "every Fedora release is going downhill ... Time for Fedora to decouple from RH and become quality UNIX-like distro on its own ?" are all but content free. Other than the fact that the poster is dissatisfied, I have no other information with which to judge whether or not I have any common ground with them. The poster proposes rather vague but drastic changes without any information about how those changes would help the situation in any way. There are also better forums than the users list to propose changes to Fedora governance. All in all, treating the post as a troll seems remarkably reasonable. Thanks Mike -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 12:45:34 +, JB wrote: > Some from an independent Fedora devs, others from other distros by adoption of > those that are useful and not conflicting with its goals. That is unlikely to happen. More likely the fork would just die. > Fedora is unstable, release by release, progressively worse. I am not seeing this. I am seeing a lot of change between releases, but the stability within releases hasn't changed much. Most of the instability I have seen over the last few years (once a version is released, rawhide tends to have other issues) has been due to regressions in the upstream kernel. > It is becoming a dump place for projects that are pushed by RH and > automatically sanctioned by its subordinates here at Fedora (some of them > admit to be torn between job loyalty and doubts), without consideration for > their sometimes questionable goals, quality, effects on system stability, > adherence to UNIX principles, lacking adequate testing, in short too > disruptive even to pre-conditioned Fedora community. Fedora is supposed to be a place to test out new technologies. Prerelease testing for Fedora has improved for recent releases. I will agree that there has been a lot of user facing change in the last few releases. (Things like gnome 3 and systemd.) > There is a lack of independent users representation in Fedora project's > governing bodies who should and would be able to be more critical and stop > some of this damage even before it enters the actual development, not to > mention implementation stages. I disagree there. Independent users do get elected to the board and FESCO. And even for the Redhat employees, many of those were independent contributors to Fedora who were hired by Redhat so that they could put more time into Fedora. While this also gives Redhat more influence over them, as far as I can observe most are acting pretty much as they did before getting hired. > SELinux is a static, straightjacket-like security control system, badly > designed with its requirement for off-line system re-labeling, ineffective and You can normally relabel online. You can relabel files unless you are running in a more strict mode than the default. There can be interactions with running processes, but within a release this normally isn't a problem. > GNOME 3 is an example of how not to do it, also influenced by RH devs. Maybe. But given gnome 3. it made sense to replace Gnome 2 in Fedora with Gnome 3 given the goals of the Fedora project. Whether or not it should be the featured desktop or whether the various supported desktops should be showcased on a more equal footing is an area where there should be discussion from time to time. > The good results achieved even caused M$ to list Linux desktop as a danger to > their desktop business in its SEC documents. > Guess what ? They removed it recently. That probably had more to do with being convicted of abusing their monopoly position and with the requirement for monitoring ending. > With regard to Systemd, it is the most recent example of non-UNIX-like (or > more like old M$-like) approach to software develoment. It is obvious by its > goals, design, and reaction to criticism - they are not of UNIX mind ... > Linux API to be a new standard, over POSIX. Screw up everybody else ... People haven't liked the init system for ages. That's why systemd is only the latest of several attempts to improve it. > There are still ca. 300 packages that are not converted from SysV/LSB to it by > their maintainers who resist or do not see a reason for the "progress" despite > all threats. This is more likely due to contributors being overstretched, than actual opposition to systed in the mahority of these cases. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 07:15:20 +, JB wrote: > > every Fedora release is going downhill ... If you are referring to quality, I disagree that they are going downhill. If you are referring to mindshare amoung people that use linux, that seems likely to be true. Ubuntu and Mint seem to be pretty popular now. > Time for Fedora to decouple from RH and become quality UNIX-like distro on > its own ? I don't see how that could help. Fedora needs more contributors, not less. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
On 11/13/2011 08:00 PM, Alan Cox wrote: >> Look at things like http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Statistics, which >> indicate that downloads and torrents are going up with each release, not >> down. > > Be careful that downloads are a lagging indicator of success. They go up > after you get it right not as, and they go down after you get it wrong, > not as... Those are *not* just statistics on downloads. Rahul -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
> Erm, no. Each Fedora release has brought in numerous technical > improvements. Virtualization, clustering, directory services, more and > more features and performance per release. That's a politicians answer. It's completely ignoring the point raised. It doesn't matter how many features a new release has if it doesn't even run properly on lots of systems. Most of the features are also irrelevant to most of the users. In F15 you could at least make the case that Gnome3 was relevant to users even if some hated it and chunks of the code were at best prototype state. (and I'd note the Phoronix survey data suggests that Gnome 3 is rather more liked than some might think from list traffic) But clustering and directory services, like forcing LVM on hapless end users are really irrelevant to most. LVM wasn't a big deal for those who knew better - disable it on install and your disk I/O improves, and its become vaguely relevant with crypto. All of this is painting the fences and hanging bling on a core product which is getting a bit wobblier every release It's bloated It picks bad user defaults It ships a default desktop which burns CPU horribly > And what? All the engineers at Red Hat develop new tech in Fedora. Where > do you propose those new technologies come from if Red Hat splits off? Perhaps the Red Hat engineers could QA their new technologies a bit more before including them ? I don't buy the "big problem" claim here. Several other releases have been a bit wobbly especially out of the box first release. Nor do a few crash reports in themselves form a statistically valid sample. I do think that as has happened a couple of times before now it's time Fedora spent a release or two being more conservative on new toys and fixing the ones it already has. > > Linux distros: > > http://w3techs.com/technologies/history_details/os-linux/all/y > > Without knowing a *lot* about how this information was gathered, it's > meaningless. Ah the cult of Gnome defence - insert fingers in ears and keep shouting loudly "We can't hear you, we can't hear you, anything we don't agree with is biased" (to be fair I note you point to some sensible stats further down) > Red Hat as a company is poised to be a billion dollar company this year > (FY12). The FY 2006 earnings were $278.3 million.[1] That's a 4X > increase in just 6 years. That's *amazing* growth. RHEL is IMHO a good product, with well thought out services around it, but it's not Fedora, and I really don't want to think how 'we've redesigned all your init scripts and broken compatibility' would go down in a meeting with a major banking client. I suspect 'The door is that way, Sir, goodbye and tell the Oracle salesman to come in as you leave' > Look at things like http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Statistics, which > indicate that downloads and torrents are going up with each release, not > down. Be careful that downloads are a lagging indicator of success. They go up after you get it right not as, and they go down after you get it wrong, not as... Alan -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
>> Red Hat as a company is poised to be a billion dollar company this year >> (FY12). The FY 2006 earnings were $278.3 million.[1] That's a 4X >> increase in just 6 years. That's *amazing* growth. > > Yes, it is. But it is also a reflection of economic decline, financial crash, > IT crash that make "free" software attractive, even necessary for survival. Capitalism mimics nature: chaotic, violent, cannibalistic, and promotes progressive adaptation above all other things. This is not a sign of economic decline, but a shift to a better mode of operation. When the web is recognized to be something other than the OS/development platform it has been mistaken for of late it will not longer be a fad absorbing gobs of trash funding -- and that will not represent economic decline, but rather a structural correction within the market. You won't be lamenting the decline of internal combustion engine makers when a new "cleaner" method of energy conversion is developed to replace current automobile engine -- because it is politically and socially unacceptable to lament such "dirty" things. IT is no different, just less politically charged in the eyes of the general population because they understand that they don't understand it well enough to have strong opinions on most points (whereas everyone is an expert in climatology and planetary cosmology). The IT market is massively overweight, overvalued and engages in enormously wasteful development practices right now. Open source development for the most common of software system elements + a revenue stream based on hardware sales and computing services provision (a very broad category worth huge money on its own) = a better model for the customer. IBM knows this. Intel isn't too happy about this. RedHat has placed itself at the most critical part of the process as the servicer. Microsoft is done creating success and is scrambling to now not create failure -- which is a really bad operating mode for a business (IBM was there once itself). That's just good business on RedHat's part and indicates a mature market understanding on the part of IBM. >> Look at things like http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Statistics, which >> indicate that downloads and torrents are going up with each release, not >> down. > > That does not mean much - what sticks, counts. > I downloaded F16, it gave me a big kernel dump with other errors - it is good > for my dev machine as a reference of what is going on, but not good beyond > that. Fedora was never intended to be useful in any other way to you. That it in fact is far more useful than that in most use cases is a testament to how coherent the Fedora project really is, despite its pace of development. And that is pretty amazing considering we lack a common architectural goal or vision. > Fedora is unstable, release by release, progressively worse. > It is becoming a dump place for projects that are pushed by RH and > automatically sanctioned by its subordinates here at Fedora (some of them > admit to be torn between job loyalty and doubts), without consideration for > their sometimes questionable goals, quality, effects on system stability, > adherence to UNIX principles, lacking adequate testing, in short too > disruptive even to pre-conditioned Fedora community. > > There is a lack of independent users representation in Fedora project's > governing bodies who should and would be able to be more critical and stop > some of this damage even before it enters the actual development, not to > mention implementation stages. I'm not on the board, but I'm an independent outsider. I don't like the state of systemd. I liked SysV because I know it well. Spending time reading the systemd-dev list has convinced me that systemd is actually a good idea, just not one that is fully implemented yet. Very importantly, it is also not suffering from the problems that Hurd only recently overcame on the project level. I expect great things from systemd -- within a year or so. Until then, RHEL or SL are fantastic stability options -- and Vine fits my wife's needs perfectly without being too different for me to manage for her. > SELinux is a static, straightjacket-like security control system, badly > designed with its requirement for off-line system re-labeling, ineffective and > inflexible for ad-hoc installed packages, with incomprehensible/non-intuitive > psedo-scientific naming convention for control labels, difficult to use and > judge by an average sysadmin and user (which mostly results in accepting > problem cases as valid exceptions, or filing Bugzilla reports which makes > the maintainer and RH services unavoidable). Have you ever configured Sendmail or tried to write a common coding specification for a web application which is supposed to run in Chrome, Firefox, Safari and IE? (Or just for starters tried to make sense of the new Firefox cycle or figure out what is going on in Chrome's hacked-up bundled librarie
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
Thomas Cameron camerontech.com> writes: > > > On 11/13/2011 01:15 AM, JB wrote: > > Hi, > > > > every Fedora release is going downhill ... > > Erm, no. Each Fedora release has brought in numerous technical > improvements. Virtualization, clustering, directory services, more and > more features and performance per release. Yes, but at what cost to Fedora and its community ? Read on. > > Time for Fedora to decouple from RH and become quality UNIX-like distro on > > its own ? > > And what? All the engineers at Red Hat develop new tech in Fedora. Where > do you propose those new technologies come from if Red Hat splits off? Some from an independent Fedora devs, others from other distros by adoption of those that are useful and not conflicting with its goals. Read on. > > Linux distros: > > http://w3techs.com/technologies/history_details/os-linux/all/y > > Without knowing a *lot* about how this information was gathered, it's > meaningless. We have to rely on them in formulating trends, which are approximations anyway. > > Fedora, Red Hat: > > http://www.google.com/trends?q=fedora%2C+redhat&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0 > > These trends are pretty meaningless. Less searches on a technology don't > necessarily mean the technology is on the wane. It could very well be > that people are more comfortable so they're not Googling as much. Or > that they know to go straight to the most popular Fedora sites or the > Red Hat portal. Be careful in your interpretations. Search engines are gold mines of data for which many companies are willing to pay lots of money. It is one of Google's main businesses, that is collecting, tabulating, and interpreting, and selling it. > > Red Hat as a company is poised to be a billion dollar company this year > (FY12). The FY 2006 earnings were $278.3 million.[1] That's a 4X > increase in just 6 years. That's *amazing* growth. Yes, it is. But it is also a reflection of economic decline, financial crash, IT crash that make "free" software attractive, even necessary for survival. > Look at things like http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Statistics, which > indicate that downloads and torrents are going up with each release, not > down. That does not mean much - what sticks, counts. I downloaded F16, it gave me a big kernel dump with other errors - it is good for my dev machine as a reference of what is going on, but not good beyond that. > Statistics cobbled together from dubious sources don't really concern > me. They probably shouldn't concern you, either. You can manipulate the > same data to prove almost anything you want. > > Remember, there are three kinds of lies - likes, damned lies, and > statistics. > > [1] http://investors.redhat.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=355567 Well, one has to be somewhat sceptical, indeed. Read on. The ladies protest too much :-) You can follow the users' frustrations with the state of recent Fedora releases here on this and other lists. Fedora is unstable, release by release, progressively worse. It is becoming a dump place for projects that are pushed by RH and automatically sanctioned by its subordinates here at Fedora (some of them admit to be torn between job loyalty and doubts), without consideration for their sometimes questionable goals, quality, effects on system stability, adherence to UNIX principles, lacking adequate testing, in short too disruptive even to pre-conditioned Fedora community. There is a lack of independent users representation in Fedora project's governing bodies who should and would be able to be more critical and stop some of this damage even before it enters the actual development, not to mention implementation stages. SELinux is a static, straightjacket-like security control system, badly designed with its requirement for off-line system re-labeling, ineffective and inflexible for ad-hoc installed packages, with incomprehensible/non-intuitive psedo-scientific naming convention for control labels, difficult to use and judge by an average sysadmin and user (which mostly results in accepting problem cases as valid exceptions, or filing Bugzilla reports which makes the maintainer and RH services unavoidable). Yes, the maintainers are doing good job, but within those faulty perimeters. GNOME 3 is an example of how not to do it, also influenced by RH devs. If you think that this is an example of how to influence the state of Linux desktop, then you live in a strange world. People (many volunteers) have worked on it for more than 10 years to convince users (inclusive the critical business community) to give them a chance. The good results achieved even caused M$ to list Linux desktop as a danger to their desktop business in its SEC documents. Guess what ? They removed it recently. All they had to do is just wait for the enemy within ... With regard to Systemd, it is the most recent example of non-UNIX-like (or more like old M$-like) approach to software develoment. It is obvious by its goals, design,
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 11/13/2011 01:15 AM, JB wrote: > Hi, > > every Fedora release is going downhill ... Erm, no. Each Fedora release has brought in numerous technical improvements. Virtualization, clustering, directory services, more and more features and performance per release. > Time for Fedora to decouple from RH and become quality UNIX-like distro on > its own ? And what? All the engineers at Red Hat develop new tech in Fedora. Where do you propose those new technologies come from if Red Hat splits off? > Linux distros: > http://w3techs.com/technologies/history_details/os-linux/all/y Without knowing a *lot* about how this information was gathered, it's meaningless. > Fedora, Red Hat: > http://www.google.com/trends?q=fedora%2C+redhat&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0 These trends are pretty meaningless. Less searches on a technology don't necessarily mean the technology is on the wane. It could very well be that people are more comfortable so they're not Googling as much. Or that they know to go straight to the most popular Fedora sites or the Red Hat portal. Red Hat as a company is poised to be a billion dollar company this year (FY12). The FY 2006 earnings were $278.3 million.[1] That's a 4X increase in just 6 years. That's *amazing* growth. Look at things like http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Statistics, which indicate that downloads and torrents are going up with each release, not down. Statistics cobbled together from dubious sources don't really concern me. They probably shouldn't concern you, either. You can manipulate the same data to prove almost anything you want. Remember, there are three kinds of lies - likes, damned lies, and statistics. [1] http://investors.redhat.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=355567 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Red Hat - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk6/ds0ACgkQmzle50YHwaDaQgCfQ4E4AaAQ0YAbFer0yU7V3SPN 6SoAoMgwh6TixpSGauugM1+RtmLEVwfb =Sh8b -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?
On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 9:15 AM, JB wrote: > Hi, > > every Fedora release is going downhill ... > > Time for Fedora to decouple from RH and become quality UNIX-like distro on > its own ? I usually try to simply ignore obvious flame posts. ... But never the less, one question: Fedora is a RH product and its based on RH personal and resources. You cannot and should not "decouple" it from RH. If you don't like the direction RH is taking Fedora, why are you still using it? Heck, fork it and take it to the direction *you* see fit and lets see how you fare without the RH resources. - Gilboa -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Trends - how to save Fedora ?
Hi, every Fedora release is going downhill ... Time for Fedora to decouple from RH and become quality UNIX-like distro on its own ? Linux distros: http://w3techs.com/technologies/history_details/os-linux/all/y Fedora, Red Hat: http://www.google.com/trends?q=fedora%2C+redhat&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0 JB -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
