Re: Writing English.
2013-11-22 22:16 keltezéssel, Joe Zeff írta: On 11/22/2013 12:54 PM, Rolf Turner wrote: Why can't computer geeks learn to write English correctly? What I'd like to know is where is Henry Higgins when we need him? You must have meant 'enry 'iggins... ;-) -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Writing English.
On 11/27/2013 08:10 PM, Zoltan Boszormenyi wrote: 2013-11-22 22:16 keltezéssel, Joe Zeff írta: On 11/22/2013 12:54 PM, Rolf Turner wrote: Why can't computer geeks learn to write English correctly? What I'd like to know is where is Henry Higgins when we need him? You must have meant 'enry 'iggins... ;-) Yamusta men tenry iggins -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Writing English.
On 11/24/2013 04:53 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: On Nov 24, 2013, at 6:15 AM, Andrew Haley a...@redhat.com wrote: On 11/23/2013 03:55 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: On Nov 23, 2013, at 3:47 AM, Andrew Haley a...@redhat.com wrote: On 11/22/2013 09:44 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: Nope, you're wrong. Find a copy of New Oxford American Dictionary and look up the words and usage. I seriously doubt even Oxford English makes such a big distinction between two words that share the same etymology and have no good reason for meaning different things. I doubt it. Fowler is pretty definite: Alternative (offering a choice) had formerly also the sense now belonging only to alternate (by turns); now that the differentiation is complete, confusion is even less excusable than between definite and definitive. Sounds like someone at Fowler has a bone to pick, but they've gone out too far on a limb. There is a clear differentiation between definite and definitive that most anyone can easily understand, yet they're proposing there's an even greater distinction between alternate and alternative that no one would care about. Well, Fowler's Modern English Usage is Oxford Dictionaries' reference work on English usage, so I can say without any reasonable fear of successful contradiction that when you seriously doubt even Oxford English makes such a big distinction you surely are wrong. You're late to the party, it's already been brought up, so I really don't see your point at all. Your claim was not about American English, but about Oxford English. They are not the same thing. You are free to disagree with Fowler, but it is the closest thing there is to an authority on Oxford English. I do not dispute the claim that alternate and alternative are synonymous in American English, but you were mistaken when you wrote: I seriously doubt even Oxford English makes such a big distinction between two words that share the same etymology and have no good reason for meaning different things. Fowler does indeed make a big distinction. That is all. Andrew. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Writing English. Please explain how this is a Fedora topic? -No please don't!
On Sun, 24 Nov 2013 12:20:50 +, Ian Malone wrote: [] The moderators can tell us to drop it, but if you want to ask them to ask then better to email the admin address rather than the whole list. To be honest though you could just ignore it. There are lots of threads I don't read on here because they're not relevant to me either. For this list (thanks be!) and many another, there is an excellent alternative. Point your newsreader, not your mailer (I recommend Pan, available via yum, as newsreader) at news.gmane.org, port 119. To be able to post, it suffices to subscribe and at once set your subscription to nomail. -- Beartooth Staffwright, Neo-Redneck Not Quite Clueless Power User Remember I have precious (very precious!) little idea where up is. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Writing English.
On Sun, 24 Nov 2013 10:18:59 +1300 Rolf Turner r.tur...@auckland.ac.nz wrote: The p is silent; as in phthisis. Or as in swimming. :-) cheers, Rolf Turner There are no result for Psigh in the Oxford English Dictionary, is you meant an exacerbation it would be Sigh -- Regards, Frank www.frankly3d.com -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Writing English.
On 24 November 2013 00:21, Bill Oliver ven...@billoblog.com wrote: On Sun, 24 Nov 2013, Rolf Turner wrote: On 11/24/13 09:30, Robert Holtzman wrote: On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 10:29:19AM +1300, Rolf Turner wrote: SNIP But wrong nevertheless. It conflates two quite distinct ideas, blurs the meaning and diminishes the language. Another English major heard from. Actually not true. Maths honours, Ph.D. maths, M. Stat. But what is your point? I assume you're aware that languages evolve over time in accordance with common usage. This is such a tired and tiresome old cliche that it is not worth responding to. Read what I wrote and think, rather than glibly reacting with smug conformism. cheers, Rolf Turner I think the problem is that you are under the mistaken impression that most of us who find this so funny are people who speak English. We don't. We speak American, a related but very different thing. Hell, I don't even speak Yankee. The last time someone said whilst to me, I thought he had a cold and offered him a hankie. I well remember a friend of mine from London coming to visit me at the ranch. After the initial pleasantries, my father whispered to my aunt, What the hell that boy sayin'? Don't get a damn thing coming outta his mouth. My aunt whispered back Don't matter none. He's Little Bill's friend. Just smile. The difference between alternate and alternative is a drop in the freaking bucket. You might as well be bitching that we misspell colour. It's not that you are wrong about English usage. You are wrong about American usage. And we just don't care -- but we find it hilarious that someone would. Listen to this guy talk (he's from Tupelo, Missisipi) and imagine telling this guy that he's using the word alternate incorrectly: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gS98llpw1L4 Well, it's a song, not technical documentation. That's what the James Joyce would have been awful if he'd allowed all these rules to hold him back argument misses. I wouldn't get Joan Mirò to design inflight safety leaflets (partly because he's dead). Picasso might've made a good job of it. Actually, the bit where he's talking is pretty much standard English. Not all Americans sound the same, not all British people either, I've had to translate glaswegian for English people before. In Yorkshire people don't understand what I'm saying unless I do the loudly and slowly thing. Twerk, what we do in Yorkshire between nine and five. - ISIHAC. -- imalone http://ibmalone.blogspot.co.uk -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Writing English. Please explain how this is a Fedora topic? -No please don't!
On 24 November 2013 02:35, Roger are...@bigpond.com wrote: Would the moderators please be kind enough to take this very tiresome off topic -off list- so that discussion about Fedora is not circumvented by trivia. Out of the thousands of lurkers and contributors, some of which are major corporations, gov't agencies, teachers, scientists, people wanting to learn about our Fedora system, beginners, you name it, we have half a dozen folk endlessly recycling opinion in which every contributor is right to some degree but will never convince others so. It is not a discussion of, nor a help with, Fedora or the system, it never was. There's a mistake here in the understanding of how mailing lists work. It's not a forum, the major option for moderation is to block people or put them on moderation (which is quite time consuming). They can tell us to drop it, but if you want to ask them to ask then better to email the admin address rather than the whole list. To be honest though you could just ignore it. There are lots of threads I don't read on here because they're not relevant to me either. Actually, the thread was originally about an issue with fedora documentation. There were two other problems with that particular page, a bug has been filed, it'll get changed at release. The ongoing discussion, if it's not causing real upset, keeps people coming back. -- imalone http://ibmalone.blogspot.co.uk -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Writing English.
On 11/23/2013 03:55 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: On Nov 23, 2013, at 3:47 AM, Andrew Haley a...@redhat.com wrote: On 11/22/2013 09:44 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: Nope, you're wrong. Find a copy of New Oxford American Dictionary and look up the words and usage. I seriously doubt even Oxford English makes such a big distinction between two words that share the same etymology and have no good reason for meaning different things. I doubt it. Fowler is pretty definite: Alternative (offering a choice) had formerly also the sense now belonging only to alternate (by turns); now that the differentiation is complete, confusion is even less excusable than between definite and definitive. Sounds like someone at Fowler has a bone to pick, but they've gone out too far on a limb. There is a clear differentiation between definite and definitive that most anyone can easily understand, yet they're proposing there's an even greater distinction between alternate and alternative that no one would care about. Well, Fowler's Modern English Usage is Oxford Dictionaries' reference work on English usage, so I can say without any reasonable fear of successful contradiction that when you seriously doubt even Oxford English makes such a big distinction you surely are wrong. Andrew. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Writing English.
On Nov 24, 2013, at 6:15 AM, Andrew Haley a...@redhat.com wrote: On 11/23/2013 03:55 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: On Nov 23, 2013, at 3:47 AM, Andrew Haley a...@redhat.com wrote: On 11/22/2013 09:44 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: Nope, you're wrong. Find a copy of New Oxford American Dictionary and look up the words and usage. I seriously doubt even Oxford English makes such a big distinction between two words that share the same etymology and have no good reason for meaning different things. I doubt it. Fowler is pretty definite: Alternative (offering a choice) had formerly also the sense now belonging only to alternate (by turns); now that the differentiation is complete, confusion is even less excusable than between definite and definitive. Sounds like someone at Fowler has a bone to pick, but they've gone out too far on a limb. There is a clear differentiation between definite and definitive that most anyone can easily understand, yet they're proposing there's an even greater distinction between alternate and alternative that no one would care about. Well, Fowler's Modern English Usage is Oxford Dictionaries' reference work on English usage, so I can say without any reasonable fear of successful contradiction that when you seriously doubt even Oxford English makes such a big distinction you surely are wrong. You're late to the party, it's already been brought up, so I really don't see your point at all. https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/users/2013-November/442622.html In any case the usage section here clarifies: http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/alternative?q=alternative And even for alternate, whose 2nd definition for the adjective form equates to alternative, chiefly meaning not exclusively. So you can complain all you want about a silly distinction being blurred all you want. The relevant dictionaries have certified actual usage and the fact that arguing about it is a lost cause. And keep in mind the suggestion isn't that the two words are always interchangeable, merely in the context of being available as another choice. Chris Murphy -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Writing English.
On 11/22/2013 09:44 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: Nope, you're wrong. Find a copy of New Oxford American Dictionary and look up the words and usage. I seriously doubt even Oxford English makes such a big distinction between two words that share the same etymology and have no good reason for meaning different things. I doubt it. Fowler is pretty definite: Alternative (offering a choice) had formerly also the sense now belonging only to alternate (by turns); now that the differentiation is complete, confusion is even less excusable than between definite and definitive. Andrew. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Writing English.
On Sat, 2013-11-23 at 01:26 +, Marko Vojinovic wrote: On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 09:54:39 +1300 Rolf Turner r.tur...@auckland.ac.nz wrote: Why can't computer geeks learn to write English correctly? http://xkcd.com/1238/ HTH, :-) Marko good one Marko, But if we all think about it, really... Who is Mark Twain? Why is he famous? Did you read Catcher in the Rye? And what is the difference between Shakespeare's writing the the books of Mark Twain or Catcher in the Rye? English is not stilted, nor is it cast in stone. It is a living language, evolving, changing, adding new words, new feelings and inventions of catch phrases, common usage and so on. Dictionaries do not set the language, but rather capture the use of the language, which evolves over time. I love reading, and yes, technical reading is miserable, not because the content doesn't interest me, but because some people in academia have the idea that there is only one effective way to phrase a thought or idea. It is further perpetrated by a legal system that is fraught with poor language, definitions that are set by arcane rules and definitions that are purely the construct of the legal profession, and while that may be necessary on some level, the extent to where it has degenerated is abysmal. Would you wish that on the creative individuals that create our most fundamental tools in the modern world? I would not. While the requirements for such phrasing in the legal aspects of our world, like licensing, or patents or other legal and binding documents are hampering creativity all around, why would you want to impose that on the flow here? This is not a troll. I will not comment further. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Writing English.
On Nov 23, 2013, at 3:47 AM, Andrew Haley a...@redhat.com wrote: On 11/22/2013 09:44 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: Nope, you're wrong. Find a copy of New Oxford American Dictionary and look up the words and usage. I seriously doubt even Oxford English makes such a big distinction between two words that share the same etymology and have no good reason for meaning different things. I doubt it. Fowler is pretty definite: Alternative (offering a choice) had formerly also the sense now belonging only to alternate (by turns); now that the differentiation is complete, confusion is even less excusable than between definite and definitive. Sounds like someone at Fowler has a bone to pick, but they've gone out too far on a limb. There is a clear differentiation between definite and definitive that most anyone can easily understand, yet they're proposing there's an even greater distinction between alternate and alternative that no one would care about. In the version of Oxford American English I have, alternate has definitions as a verb, adjective, and noun. Under adjective, the 2nd definition is taking the place of; alternative Merriam Webster online, 4th definition for alternate, constituting an alternative. The 1st definition for alternative is alternate. Chris Murphy -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Writing English.
On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 10:29:19AM +1300, Rolf Turner wrote: On 11/23/13 10:17, inode0 wrote: On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 2:54 PM, Rolf Turner r.tur...@auckland.ac.nz wrote: Just read some stuff on this list about spins, a concept which had not previously impinged itself upon my consciousness. So I went and had a look at the spins.fedoraproject.org page. It started off by saying What is a spin? Fedora spins are alternate version of Fedora, tailored For God's sake, people!!! That's alternative versions!!! Alternate means every other or every second. Alternative means available as another possibility. Saying alternate when you mean alternative is sloppy, lazy thinking and irritates and confuses the reader. Why can't computer geeks learn to write English correctly? In American usage this is acceptable and common. But wrong nevertheless. It conflates two quite distinct ideas, blurs the meaning and diminishes the language. But if it bothers you that much why didn't you just correct it on the wiki in a fraction of the time it took you to rant about it here? Why so hostile? Why rant? The page that I looked at (spins.fedoraproject.org) did not appear to be a Wiki nor to be editable by the user in any way. Anyway, my mission is to enlighten people. If I'd just corrected it, no-one would've noticed. Another English major heard from. I assume you're aware that languages evolve over time in accordance with common usage. -- Bob Holtzman Your mail is being read by tight lipped NSA agents who fail to see humor in Doctor Strangelove Key ID 8D549279 signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Writing English.
On 11/22/2013 12:54 PM, Rolf Turner wrote: Psigh! What hope for humanity? :-) Well... what is `Psigh' in English please? :P -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Writing English.
On 11/24/13 09:52, Dan Thurman wrote: On 11/22/2013 12:54 PM, Rolf Turner wrote: Psigh! What hope for humanity? :-) Well... what is `Psigh' in English please? :P The p is silent; as in phthisis. Or as in swimming. :-) cheers, Rolf Turner -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Writing English.
On 11/24/13 09:30, Robert Holtzman wrote: On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 10:29:19AM +1300, Rolf Turner wrote: SNIP But wrong nevertheless. It conflates two quite distinct ideas, blurs the meaning and diminishes the language. Another English major heard from. Actually not true. Maths honours, Ph.D. maths, M. Stat. But what is your point? I assume you're aware that languages evolve over time in accordance with common usage. This is such a tired and tiresome old cliche that it is not worth responding to. Read what I wrote and think, rather than glibly reacting with smug conformism. cheers, Rolf Turner P. S. One should not aim at being possible to understand, but at being impossible to misunderstand. --- Quintilian -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Writing English.
On 11/23/2013 04:33 PM, Rolf Turner wrote: On 11/24/13 09:30, Robert Holtzman wrote: On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 10:29:19AM +1300, Rolf Turner wrote: SNIP /snip/ cheers, Rolf Turner P. S. One should not aim at being possible to understand, but at being impossible to misunderstand. --- Quintilian Quintilion must never have read Cicero! --doug -- Blessed are the peacemakers..for they shall be shot at from both sides. --A.M.Greeley -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Writing English.
On Sun, 24 Nov 2013, Rolf Turner wrote: On 11/24/13 09:30, Robert Holtzman wrote: On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 10:29:19AM +1300, Rolf Turner wrote: SNIP But wrong nevertheless. It conflates two quite distinct ideas, blurs the meaning and diminishes the language. Another English major heard from. Actually not true. Maths honours, Ph.D. maths, M. Stat. But what is your point? I assume you're aware that languages evolve over time in accordance with common usage. This is such a tired and tiresome old cliche that it is not worth responding to. Read what I wrote and think, rather than glibly reacting with smug conformism. cheers, Rolf Turner I think the problem is that you are under the mistaken impression that most of us who find this so funny are people who speak English. We don't. We speak American, a related but very different thing. Hell, I don't even speak Yankee. The last time someone said whilst to me, I thought he had a cold and offered him a hankie. I well remember a friend of mine from London coming to visit me at the ranch. After the initial pleasantries, my father whispered to my aunt, What the hell that boy sayin'? Don't get a damn thing coming outta his mouth. My aunt whispered back Don't matter none. He's Little Bill's friend. Just smile. The difference between alternate and alternative is a drop in the freaking bucket. You might as well be bitching that we misspell colour. It's not that you are wrong about English usage. You are wrong about American usage. And we just don't care -- but we find it hilarious that someone would. Listen to this guy talk (he's from Tupelo, Missisipi) and imagine telling this guy that he's using the word alternate incorrectly: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gS98llpw1L4 (BTW, this is the fight he was talking about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2H-7NIC2qI ) billo -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Writing English.
On Sat, 23 Nov 2013, Bill Oliver wrote: On Sun, 24 Nov 2013, Rolf Turner wrote: On 11/24/13 09:30, Robert Holtzman wrote: On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 10:29:19AM +1300, Rolf Turner wrote: SNIP But wrong nevertheless. It conflates two quite distinct ideas, blurs the meaning and diminishes the language. Another English major heard from. Actually not true. Maths honours, Ph.D. maths, M. Stat. But what is your point? I assume you're aware that languages evolve over time in accordance with common usage. This is such a tired and tiresome old cliche that it is not worth responding to. Read what I wrote and think, rather than glibly reacting with smug conformism. cheers, Rolf Turner I think the problem is that you are under the mistaken impression that most of us who find this so funny are people who speak English. We don't. We speak American, a related but very different thing. Hell, I don't even speak Yankee. The last time someone said whilst to me, I thought he had a cold and offered him a hankie. I well remember a friend of mine from London coming to visit me at the ranch. After the initial pleasantries, my father whispered to my aunt, What the hell that boy sayin'? Don't get a damn thing coming outta his mouth. My aunt whispered back Don't matter none. He's Little Bill's friend. Just smile. The difference between alternate and alternative is a drop in the freaking bucket. You might as well be bitching that we misspell colour. It's not that you are wrong about English usage. You are wrong about American usage. And we just don't care -- but we find it hilarious that someone would. Listen to this guy talk (he's from Tupelo, Missisipi) and imagine telling this guy that he's using the word alternate incorrectly: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gS98llpw1L4 (BTW, this is the fight he was talking about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2H-7NIC2qI ) billo That's Mississippi, of course. Damned keyboard delay. billo -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Writing English.
On 11/23/2013 04:21 PM, Bill Oliver wrote: It's not that you are wrong about English usage. You are wrong about American usage. And we just don't care -- but we find it hilarious that someone would. What do you mean by we, redneck? -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Writing English.
On Sat, 23 Nov 2013, Joe Zeff wrote: On 11/23/2013 04:21 PM, Bill Oliver wrote: It's not that you are wrong about English usage. You are wrong about American usage. And we just don't care -- but we find it hilarious that someone would. What do you mean by we, redneck? Why, people like me, of course. All the right thinking sort :-) That's just one of the nice things about being a redneck -- you are never alone. That and the food. And the music. And the good looking women. And the guns. billo -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Writing English.
On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 10:33:41AM +1300, Rolf Turner wrote: On 11/24/13 09:30, Robert Holtzman wrote: On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 10:29:19AM +1300, Rolf Turner wrote: SNIP But wrong nevertheless. It conflates two quite distinct ideas, blurs the meaning and diminishes the language. Another English major heard from. Actually not true. Maths honours, Ph.D. maths, M. Stat. But what is your point? I assume you're aware that languages evolve over time in accordance with common usage. This is such a tired and tiresome old cliche that it is not worth responding to. Especially when you don't have a good refutation. Read what I wrote and think, I did. rather than glibly reacting with smug conformism. I didn't. Now that you've told us how marvelous you are, let's get back on the subject of fedora. -- Bob Holtzman Your mail is being read by tight lipped NSA agents who fail to see humor in Doctor Strangelove Key ID 8D549279 signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Writing English.
On 11/23/2013 05:04 PM, Bill Oliver wrote: Why, people like me, of course. All the right thinking sort :-) Ah. I see. Not the type, then, that Ziva David insisted on calling redthroats. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Writing English.
On Sat, 23 Nov 2013, Joe Zeff wrote: On 11/23/2013 05:04 PM, Bill Oliver wrote: Why, people like me, of course. All the right thinking sort :-) Ah. I see. Not the type, then, that Ziva David insisted on calling redthroats. Well, now that you mention it, and in all seriousness, I actually had Ducky's job. The show has it backwards, though. In the real world, the NCIS investigators rotated through our office (OAFME -- Office of the Armed Forces Meical Examiner) rather than having their own pathologist. We were at the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology at Walter Reed. Now that Walter Reed has closed, the service has changed to the AFMES (Aremd Force Medical Examiner Service) and is up in Dover AFB as part of the Medical Materiel Command. I still think the NCIS/CID/AFOSI folk rotate through, though. Never had any Mossad rotate through -- though I met a couple when I was with the Georgia Bureau of Investigation. billo -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Writing English. Please explain how this is a Fedora topic? -No please don't!
Would the moderators please be kind enough to take this very tiresome off topic -off list- so that discussion about Fedora is not circumvented by trivia. Out of the thousands of lurkers and contributors, some of which are major corporations, gov't agencies, teachers, scientists, people wanting to learn about our Fedora system, beginners, you name it, we have half a dozen folk endlessly recycling opinion in which every contributor is right to some degree but will never convince others so. It is not a discussion of, nor a help with, Fedora or the system, it never was. Thank you Roger Why, people like me, of course. All the right thinking sort :-) -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Writing English.
On 11/23/2013 07:21 PM, Bill Oliver wrote: On Sun, 24 Nov 2013, Rolf Turner wrote: On 11/24/13 09:30, Robert Holtzman wrote: On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 10:29:19AM +1300, Rolf Turner wrote: SNIP But wrong nevertheless. It conflates two quite distinct ideas, blurs the meaning and diminishes the language. Another English major heard from. Actually not true. Maths honours, Ph.D. maths, M. Stat. But what is your point? I assume you're aware that languages evolve over time in accordance with common usage. This is such a tired and tiresome old cliche that it is not worth responding to. Read what I wrote and think, rather than glibly reacting with smug conformism. cheers, Rolf Turner I think the problem is that you are under the mistaken impression that most of us who find this so funny are people who speak English. We don't. We speak American, a related but very different thing. Hell, I don't even speak Yankee. The last time someone said whilst to me, I thought he had a cold and offered him a hankie. I well remember a friend of mine from London coming to visit me at the ranch. After the initial pleasantries, my father whispered to my aunt, What the hell that boy sayin'? Don't get a damn thing coming outta his mouth. My aunt whispered back Don't matter none. He's Little Bill's friend. Just smile. The difference between alternate and alternative is a drop in the freaking bucket. You might as well be bitching that we misspell colour. It's not that you are wrong about English usage. You are wrong about American usage. And we just don't care -- but we find it hilarious that someone would. Listen to this guy talk (he's from Tupelo, Missisipi) and imagine telling this guy that he's using the word alternate incorrectly: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gS98llpw1L4 (BTW, this is the fight he was talking about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2H-7NIC2qI ) billo I was really getting tired of this thread, but you have finally pulled it out, Bill. Thnx! --doug -- Blessed are the peacemakers..for they shall be shot at from both sides. --A.M.Greeley -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Writing English.
Just read some stuff on this list about spins, a concept which had not previously impinged itself upon my consciousness. So I went and had a look at the spins.fedoraproject.org page. It started off by saying What is a spin? Fedora spins are alternate version of Fedora, tailored For God's sake, people!!! That's alternative versions!!! Alternate means every other or every second. Alternative means available as another possibility. Saying alternate when you mean alternative is sloppy, lazy thinking and irritates and confuses the reader. Why can't computer geeks learn to write English correctly? Of course the geeks are not alone in their inability. I just read, in this morning's New Zealand Herald, an article (reprinted from the Independent, which you would think would get it right!) about Pope Francis, in which it was said Despite winning pundits for his graceful-but-radical abdication, Benedict fell victim to Uh, I think the writer meant *plaudits*, don't you? Psigh! What hope for humanity? :-) cheers, Rolf Turner -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Writing English.
On 11/22/2013 12:54 PM, Rolf Turner wrote: Why can't computer geeks learn to write English correctly? What I'd like to know is where is Henry Higgins when we need him? -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Writing English.
On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 2:54 PM, Rolf Turner r.tur...@auckland.ac.nz wrote: Just read some stuff on this list about spins, a concept which had not previously impinged itself upon my consciousness. So I went and had a look at the spins.fedoraproject.org page. It started off by saying What is a spin? Fedora spins are alternate version of Fedora, tailored For God's sake, people!!! That's alternative versions!!! Alternate means every other or every second. Alternative means available as another possibility. Saying alternate when you mean alternative is sloppy, lazy thinking and irritates and confuses the reader. Why can't computer geeks learn to write English correctly? In American usage this is acceptable and common. But if it bothers you that much why didn't you just correct it on the wiki in a fraction of the time it took you to rant about it here? John -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Writing English.
On 11/23/13 10:17, inode0 wrote: On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 2:54 PM, Rolf Turner r.tur...@auckland.ac.nz wrote: Just read some stuff on this list about spins, a concept which had not previously impinged itself upon my consciousness. So I went and had a look at the spins.fedoraproject.org page. It started off by saying What is a spin? Fedora spins are alternate version of Fedora, tailored For God's sake, people!!! That's alternative versions!!! Alternate means every other or every second. Alternative means available as another possibility. Saying alternate when you mean alternative is sloppy, lazy thinking and irritates and confuses the reader. Why can't computer geeks learn to write English correctly? In American usage this is acceptable and common. But wrong nevertheless. It conflates two quite distinct ideas, blurs the meaning and diminishes the language. But if it bothers you that much why didn't you just correct it on the wiki in a fraction of the time it took you to rant about it here? Why so hostile? Why rant? The page that I looked at (spins.fedoraproject.org) did not appear to be a Wiki nor to be editable by the user in any way. Anyway, my mission is to enlighten people. If I'd just corrected it, no-one would've noticed. Psigh! cheers, Rolf Turner -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Writing English.
On Nov 22, 2013, at 2:17 PM, inode0 ino...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 2:54 PM, Rolf Turner r.tur...@auckland.ac.nz wrote: Just read some stuff on this list about spins, a concept which had not previously impinged itself upon my consciousness. So I went and had a look at the spins.fedoraproject.org page. It started off by saying What is a spin? Fedora spins are alternate version of Fedora, tailored For God's sake, people!!! That's alternative versions!!! Alternate means every other or every second. Alternative means available as another possibility. Saying alternate when you mean alternative is sloppy, lazy thinking and irritates and confuses the reader. Why can't computer geeks learn to write English correctly? In American usage this is acceptable and common. Yes, there's no distinction between alternate versions and alternative versions both are adjectives. And to make it more hilarious for nit pickers, for some time it's no longer necessary that only two choices apply, there can be multiple choices and it's still OK to use either one. For a ski lift line with two or more lines merging, the word alternate is used. And it's the same for alternative which simply means more than one choice, including three or four or ten. Don't get your panties in a bunch, there are many alternatives. Is a common phrase. But if it bothers you that much why didn't you just correct it on the wiki in a fraction of the time it took you to rant about it here? He likes ranting? Chris Murphy -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Writing English.
On Nov 22, 2013, at 2:29 PM, Rolf Turner r.tur...@auckland.ac.nz wrote: On 11/23/13 10:17, inode0 wrote: On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 2:54 PM, Rolf Turner r.tur...@auckland.ac.nz wrote: Just read some stuff on this list about spins, a concept which had not previously impinged itself upon my consciousness. So I went and had a look at the spins.fedoraproject.org page. It started off by saying What is a spin? Fedora spins are alternate version of Fedora, tailored For God's sake, people!!! That's alternative versions!!! Alternate means every other or every second. Alternative means available as another possibility. Saying alternate when you mean alternative is sloppy, lazy thinking and irritates and confuses the reader. Why can't computer geeks learn to write English correctly? In American usage this is acceptable and common. But wrong nevertheless. It conflates two quite distinct ideas, blurs the meaning and diminishes the language. Nope, you're wrong. Find a copy of New Oxford American Dictionary and look up the words and usage. I seriously doubt even Oxford English makes such a big distinction between two words that share the same etymology and have no good reason for meaning different things. Chris Murphy -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Writing English.
On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 1:44 PM, Chris Murphy li...@colorremedies.comwrote: Nope, you're wrong. Find a copy of New Oxford American Dictionary and look up the words and usage. I seriously doubt even Oxford English makes such a big distinction between two words that share the same etymology and have no good reason for meaning different things. You beat me to this. Here is the OED definition: http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/5796?rskey=rEVqSpresult=1isAdvanced=false#eid The adjective forms of alternate and alternative are synonymous in both British and American English. The current usage of alternate is correct. Zach Ploskey -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Writing English.
On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 03:17:32PM -0600, inode0 wrote: On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 2:54 PM, Rolf Turner r.tur...@auckland.ac.nz wrote: Just read some stuff on this list about spins, a concept which had not previously impinged itself upon my consciousness. So I went and had a look at the spins.fedoraproject.org page. It started off by saying What is a spin? Fedora spins are alternate version of Fedora, tailored For God's sake, people!!! That's alternative versions!!! Alternate means every other or every second. Alternative means available as another possibility. Saying alternate when you mean alternative is sloppy, lazy thinking and irritates and confuses the reader. Why can't computer geeks learn to write English correctly? In American usage this is acceptable and common. But if it bothers you that much why didn't you just correct it on the wiki in a fraction of the time it took you to rant about it here? Actually, this is on the spins.fp.o site which isn't a wiki. But regardless, a query of https://www.google.com/search?q=alternate using en_US locations shows this is acceptable usage. We also tend to misspell with vigor here. ;-) Move along, nothing to see here... -- Paul W. Frieldshttp://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ The open source story continues to grow: http://opensource.com -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Writing English.
On 22 November 2013 22:00, Paul W. Frields sticks...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 03:17:32PM -0600, inode0 wrote: On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 2:54 PM, Rolf Turner r.tur...@auckland.ac.nz wrote: Just read some stuff on this list about spins, a concept which had not previously impinged itself upon my consciousness. So I went and had a look at the spins.fedoraproject.org page. It started off by saying What is a spin? Fedora spins are alternate version of Fedora, tailored For God's sake, people!!! That's alternative versions!!! Alternate means every other or every second. Alternative means available as another possibility. Saying alternate when you mean alternative is sloppy, lazy thinking and irritates and confuses the reader. Why can't computer geeks learn to write English correctly? In American usage this is acceptable and common. But if it bothers you that much why didn't you just correct it on the wiki in a fraction of the time it took you to rant about it here? Actually, this is on the spins.fp.o site which isn't a wiki. But regardless, a query of https://www.google.com/search?q=alternate using en_US locations shows this is acceptable usage. We also tend to misspell with vigor here. ;-) Move along, nothing to see here... I believe the docs project is responsible for this and other pages, people who are not necessarily computer geeks and some of whom are experienced proof-readers. However there is a lot to do and things do slip through, so anyone who thinks they can usefully contribute is welcome to join. FWIW, just because it's in the dictionary doesn't mean it's current or commonly understood usage. Alternative would scan much better for me too, something has gone wrong with that particular sentence anyway, since a plural has gone astray. Someone please chip in with at this point with a 16th century example showing verbs don't need to agree... -- imalone http://ibmalone.blogspot.co.uk -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Writing English.
On Sat, 23 Nov 2013, Rolf Turner wrote: On 11/23/13 10:17, inode0 wrote: In American usage this is acceptable and common. But wrong nevertheless. It conflates two quite distinct ideas, blurs the meaning and diminishes the language. Yeah, we have a saying about that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-cFtSPIF4Q billo -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Writing English.
On Friday 22 November 2013 03:04:27 PM Bill Oliver wrote: On Sat, 23 Nov 2013, Rolf Turner wrote: On 11/23/13 10:17, inode0 wrote: In American usage this is acceptable and common. But wrong nevertheless. It conflates two quite distinct ideas, blurs the meaning and diminishes the language. Yeah, we have a saying about that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-cFtSPIF4Q Thank you for giving me an excuse to listen to Ray Wylie Hubbard in the middle of the afternoon! -- Bruce Byfield 604-421-7189 (on Pacific time) blog: https://brucebyfield.wordpress.com website: http://members.axion.net/~bbyfield/ -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Writing English.
On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 09:54:39 +1300 Rolf Turner r.tur...@auckland.ac.nz wrote: Why can't computer geeks learn to write English correctly? http://xkcd.com/1238/ HTH, :-) Marko -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
