[ovirt-users] Firewall GARP not reachable to VM
Hi all Does anyone know how i can allow my Firewall VM cluster act as the default gateway to VMs within the same network? I've configured the GARP functionality on the OPNSENSE firewalls (PFSENSE fork). VMs within the same network can ping the firewall IP addresses successfully but not the GARP IP. The ovirt network has been configured with the MAC Address Anti-spoofing to false. One firewall has been configured with virtio network drivers and the with e1000 both exhibiting the same behavior. Currently all VMs have been configured with a default gateway the primary firewall. Network workarounds using BGP and attributes can work, but are way to complicate to streamline for all VMs when a simple VRRP can do the job. Any ideas what i am missing? ___ Users mailing list -- users@ovirt.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@ovirt.org Privacy Statement: https://www.ovirt.org/privacy-policy.html oVirt Code of Conduct: https://www.ovirt.org/community/about/community-guidelines/ List Archives: https://lists.ovirt.org/archives/list/users@ovirt.org/message/JL25NRQOTDQKKEKMLFGXFSEFNMG6SEBE/
Re: [ovirt-users] firewall node
https://www.mail-archive.com/users@ovirt.org/msg46608.html Le 09/03/2018 à 20:12, Fabrice SOLER a écrit : Hello, I am trying to open a port on the node. For that, in the cluster configuration I have choosed firewalld, I have created the |*/etc/ovirt-engine/ansible/ovirt-host-deploy-post-tasks.yml* file.| | - name: Enable additional port on firewalld firewalld: port: "12345/tcp" permanent: yes immediate: yes state: enabled | |then I have rebooted the node like it is noticed on this link : | |https://www.ovirt.org/blog/2017/12/host-deploy-customization/ | |On the node, after the reboot, I read the iptables (iptables -L) and the port is not open. | |I have just updated the engine and the node is 4.2.1.1.| |Is there some change about the firewalld in this version ? (in 4.2.0 it worked) | |Sincerery | -- ___ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users -- Nicolas ECARNOT ___ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users
[ovirt-users] firewall node
Hello, I am trying to open a port on the node. For that, in the cluster configuration I have choosed firewalld, I have created the |*/etc/ovirt-engine/ansible/ovirt-host-deploy-post-tasks.yml* file.| | - name: Enable additional port on firewalld firewalld: port: "12345/tcp" permanent: yes immediate: yes state: enabled | |then I have rebooted the node like it is noticed on this link : | |https://www.ovirt.org/blog/2017/12/host-deploy-customization/ | |On the node, after the reboot, I read the iptables (iptables -L) and the port is not open. | |I have just updated the engine and the node is 4.2.1.1.| |Is there some change about the firewalld in this version ? (in 4.2.0 it worked) | |Sincerery | -- ___ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [ovirt-users] Firewall?
Thanks livnat, but i don't really understand . The security group feature defines iptables rules on the note itself. About that: how can i define security group rules ? and in a cluster, they are automatically propagated al all nodes ? Il giorno 03/giu/2014, alle ore 17:29, Ovirt User ldrt8...@gmail.com ha scritto: Hello Guys, i'm searching for a simple firewall solution ( deny some ports etc ). It is possibile configure a firewall in the node ? to protect the vm's ? Thanks Lukas ___ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [ovirt-users] Firewall?
On 06/05/2014 09:37 AM, Ovirt User wrote: Thanks livnat, but i don't really understand . The security group feature defines iptables rules on the note itself. About that: how can i define security group rules ? and in a cluster, they are automatically propagated al all nodes ? The security group is configured per VM, the rules are configured by the system on the node the VM is running on. From the user perspective you need to configure a security group policy and then associate the VM with the relevant policy, there is also a default policy to which all VMs are associated by default. To use this feature you need to use the oVirt-Neutron integration - http://www.ovirt.org/Features/Detailed_OSN_Integration#Security_groups One caveat in this integration is that we did not handle VM migration yet. Il giorno 03/giu/2014, alle ore 17:29, Ovirt User ldrt8...@gmail.com ha scritto: Hello Guys, i'm searching for a simple firewall solution ( deny some ports etc ). It is possibile configure a firewall in the node ? to protect the vm's ? Thanks Lukas ___ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users ___ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [ovirt-users] Firewall?
On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 10:02 AM, Livnat Peer lp...@redhat.com wrote:
[snip]
The security group is configured per VM, the rules are configured by the
system on the node the VM is running on.
From the user perspective you need to configure a security group policy
and then associate the VM with the relevant policy, there is also a
default policy to which all VMs are associated by default.
To use this feature you need to use the oVirt-Neutron integration -
http://www.ovirt.org/Features/Detailed_OSN_Integration#Security_groups
How can I set more than one custom device property?
For example in my case when I had to use extnet I lose the security groups
one...
before
[root@tekkaman ovirt-engine]# engine-config -g CustomDeviceProperties
CustomDeviceProperties: version: 3.0
CustomDeviceProperties: version: 3.1
CustomDeviceProperties: version: 3.2
CustomDeviceProperties: version: 3.3
CustomDeviceProperties: {type=interface;prop={SecurityGroups=^(?:(?:[0-9a-
fA-F]{8}-(?:[0-9a-fA-F]{4}-){3}[0-9a-fA-F]{12},
*)*[0-9a-fA-F]{8}-(?:[0-9a-fA-F]{4}-){3}[0-9a-fA-F]{12}|)$}} version: 3.4
then
[root@tekkaman ovirt-engine]# engine-config -s
CustomDeviceProperties='{type=interface;prop={extnet=^[a-zA-Z0-9_ ---]+$}}'
Please select a version:
1. 3.0
2. 3.1
3. 3.2
4. 3.3
5. 3.4
5
after:
[root@tekkaman ovirt-engine]# engine-config -g CustomDeviceProperties
CustomDeviceProperties: version: 3.0
CustomDeviceProperties: version: 3.1
CustomDeviceProperties: version: 3.2
CustomDeviceProperties: version: 3.3
CustomDeviceProperties: {type=interface;prop={extnet=^[a-zA-Z0-9_ ---]+$}}
version: 3.4
# systemctl restart ovirt-engine
What is the syntax to add extnet without deleting security groups one?
Thanks
Gianluca
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Re: [ovirt-users] Firewall?
I'm adding Moti to provide the details
On 06/05/2014 11:34 AM, Gianluca Cecchi wrote:
On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 10:02 AM, Livnat Peer lp...@redhat.com
mailto:lp...@redhat.com wrote:
[snip]
The security group is configured per VM, the rules are configured by the
system on the node the VM is running on.
From the user perspective you need to configure a security group policy
and then associate the VM with the relevant policy, there is also a
default policy to which all VMs are associated by default.
To use this feature you need to use the oVirt-Neutron integration -
http://www.ovirt.org/Features/Detailed_OSN_Integration#Security_groups
How can I set more than one custom device property?
For example in my case when I had to use extnet I lose the security
groups one...
before
[root@tekkaman ovirt-engine]# engine-config -g CustomDeviceProperties
CustomDeviceProperties: version: 3.0
CustomDeviceProperties: version: 3.1
CustomDeviceProperties: version: 3.2
CustomDeviceProperties: version: 3.3
CustomDeviceProperties:
{type=interface;prop={SecurityGroups=^(?:(?:[0-9a-fA-F]{8}-(?:[0-9a-fA-F]{4}-){3}[0-9a-fA-F]{12},
*)*[0-9a-fA-F]{8}-(?:[0-9a-fA-F]{4}-){3}[0-9a-fA-F]{12}|)$}} version: 3.4
then
[root@tekkaman ovirt-engine]# engine-config -s
CustomDeviceProperties='{type=interface;prop={extnet=^[a-zA-Z0-9_ ---]+$}}'
Please select a version:
1. 3.0
2. 3.1
3. 3.2
4. 3.3
5. 3.4
5
after:
[root@tekkaman ovirt-engine]# engine-config -g CustomDeviceProperties
CustomDeviceProperties: version: 3.0
CustomDeviceProperties: version: 3.1
CustomDeviceProperties: version: 3.2
CustomDeviceProperties: version: 3.3
CustomDeviceProperties: {type=interface;prop={extnet=^[a-zA-Z0-9_
---]+$}} version: 3.4
# systemctl restart ovirt-engine
What is the syntax to add extnet without deleting security groups one?
Thanks
Gianluca
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Re: [ovirt-users] Firewall?
- Original Message -
From: Gianluca Cecchi gianluca.cec...@gmail.com
To: Livnat Peer lp...@redhat.com
Cc: users@ovirt.org
Sent: Thursday, June 5, 2014 11:34:11 AM
Subject: Re: [ovirt-users] Firewall?
On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 10:02 AM, Livnat Peer lp...@redhat.com wrote:
[snip]
The security group is configured per VM, the rules are configured by the
system on the node the VM is running on.
From the user perspective you need to configure a security group policy
and then associate the VM with the relevant policy, there is also a
default policy to which all VMs are associated by default.
To use this feature you need to use the oVirt-Neutron integration -
http://www.ovirt.org/Features/Detailed_OSN_Integration#Security_groups
How can I set more than one custom device property?
For example in my case when I had to use extnet I lose the security groups
one...
before
[root@tekkaman ovirt-engine]# engine-config -g CustomDeviceProperties
CustomDeviceProperties: version: 3.0
CustomDeviceProperties: version: 3.1
CustomDeviceProperties: version: 3.2
CustomDeviceProperties: version: 3.3
CustomDeviceProperties: {type=interface;prop={ SecurityGroups=^(?:(?:[0-9a-
fA-F]{8}-(?:[0-9a-fA-F]{4}-){ 3}[0-9a-fA-F]{12},
*)*[0-9a-fA-F]{8}-(?:[0-9a-fA- F]{4}-){3}[0-9a-fA-F]{12}|)$}} version: 3.4
then
[root@tekkaman ovirt-engine]# engine-config -s CustomDeviceProperties='{type=
interface;prop={extnet=^[a-zA- Z0-9_ ---]+$}}'
Please select a version:
1. 3.0
2. 3.1
3. 3.2
4. 3.3
5. 3.4
5
after:
[root@tekkaman ovirt-engine]# engine-config -g CustomDeviceProperties
CustomDeviceProperties: version: 3.0
CustomDeviceProperties: version: 3.1
CustomDeviceProperties: version: 3.2
CustomDeviceProperties: version: 3.3
CustomDeviceProperties: {type=interface;prop={extnet=^ [a-zA-Z0-9_ ---]+$}}
version: 3.4
# systemctl restart ovirt-engine
What is the syntax to add extnet without deleting security groups one?
See example on [1], modified a bit to fit you goal:
1. sudo engine-config -g CustomDeviceProperties --cver 3.4
2. Copy the SecurityGroups into variable PREVIOUS_PROPERTIES
i.e.
PREVIOUS_PROPERTIES=SecurityGroups=^(?:(?:[0-9a-fA-F]{8}-(?:[0-9a-fA-F]{4}-){3}[0-9a-fA-F]{12},
*)*[0-9a-fA-F]{8}-(?:[0-9a-fA-F]{4}-){3}[0-9a-fA-F]{12}|)$
3. sudo engine-config -s
CustomDeviceProperties={type=interface;prop={$PREVIOUS_PROPERTIES;extnet=^
[a-zA-Z0-9_ ---]+$}} --cver=3.4
4. Verify: sudo engine-config -g CustomDeviceProperties --cver 3.4
5. Restart ovirt-engine for changes to reload.
[1] https://github.com/oVirt/vdsm/tree/master/vdsm_hooks/macspoof
Thanks
Gianluca
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Re: [ovirt-users] Firewall?
you could also do some transparent firewalling using ebtables to drop to iptables, no? -Chris On 6/4/2014 10:44 PM, Ovirt User wrote: yes i know neutron, but really i don't want a server manage my L3 networks ! :-) :-)) and you ? Il giorno 04/giu/2014, alle ore 22:15, Itamar Heim ih...@redhat.com ha scritto: On 06/04/2014 04:08 PM, Maurice James wrote: As far as I know the node cannot manage the firewall on the VM, just like the node cannot manage the firewall of another node try the Security Groups support in 3.4 via the neutron integration? http://www.ovirt.org/Features/Detailed_OSN_Integration - Original Message - From: Ovirt User ldrt8...@gmail.com To: Maurice James mja...@media-node.com Cc: users@ovirt.org Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2014 1:48:13 AM Subject: Re: [ovirt-users] Firewall? thanks i know that. :) i'm asking if it is possible manage firewall rules at node level , since node manage networking for VM'S… anyone know that ? thanks Il giorno 04/giu/2014, alle ore 01:15, Maurice James mja...@media-node.com ha scritto: The VM becomes its own system, you will have to enable the firewall on the VM itself. Windows Firewall for Windows clients and Iptables or Firewalld for Linux clients - Original Message - From: Ovirt User ldrt8...@gmail.com To: Maurice James mja...@media-node.com Cc: users@ovirt.org Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2014 3:33:10 PM Subject: Re: [ovirt-users] Firewall? the vm's thanks Il giorno 03/giu/2014, alle ore 17:39, Maurice James mja...@media-node.com ha scritto: Do you want to protect the VMs or the manager? - Original Message - From: Ovirt User ldrt8...@gmail.com To: users@ovirt.org Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2014 11:29:23 AM Subject: [ovirt-users] Firewall? Hello Guys, i'm searching for a simple firewall solution ( deny some ports etc ). It is possibile configure a firewall in the node ? to protect the vm's ? Thanks Lukas ___ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users ___ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users ___ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users ___ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [ovirt-users] Firewall?
hi chris, at node level ? Il giorno 03/giu/2014, alle ore 17:29, Ovirt User ldrt8...@gmail.com ha scritto: Hello Guys, i'm searching for a simple firewall solution ( deny some ports etc ). It is possibile configure a firewall in the node ? to protect the vm's ? Thanks Lukas ___ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [ovirt-users] Firewall?
As far as I know the node cannot manage the firewall on the VM, just like the node cannot manage the firewall of another node - Original Message - From: Ovirt User ldrt8...@gmail.com To: Maurice James mja...@media-node.com Cc: users@ovirt.org Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2014 1:48:13 AM Subject: Re: [ovirt-users] Firewall? thanks i know that. :) i'm asking if it is possible manage firewall rules at node level , since node manage networking for VM'S… anyone know that ? thanks Il giorno 04/giu/2014, alle ore 01:15, Maurice James mja...@media-node.com ha scritto: The VM becomes its own system, you will have to enable the firewall on the VM itself. Windows Firewall for Windows clients and Iptables or Firewalld for Linux clients - Original Message - From: Ovirt User ldrt8...@gmail.com To: Maurice James mja...@media-node.com Cc: users@ovirt.org Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2014 3:33:10 PM Subject: Re: [ovirt-users] Firewall? the vm's thanks Il giorno 03/giu/2014, alle ore 17:39, Maurice James mja...@media-node.com ha scritto: Do you want to protect the VMs or the manager? - Original Message - From: Ovirt User ldrt8...@gmail.com To: users@ovirt.org Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2014 11:29:23 AM Subject: [ovirt-users] Firewall? Hello Guys, i'm searching for a simple firewall solution ( deny some ports etc ). It is possibile configure a firewall in the node ? to protect the vm's ? Thanks Lukas ___ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users ___ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [ovirt-users] Firewall?
On 06/04/2014 04:08 PM, Maurice James wrote: As far as I know the node cannot manage the firewall on the VM, just like the node cannot manage the firewall of another node try the Security Groups support in 3.4 via the neutron integration? http://www.ovirt.org/Features/Detailed_OSN_Integration - Original Message - From: Ovirt User ldrt8...@gmail.com To: Maurice James mja...@media-node.com Cc: users@ovirt.org Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2014 1:48:13 AM Subject: Re: [ovirt-users] Firewall? thanks i know that. :) i'm asking if it is possible manage firewall rules at node level , since node manage networking for VM'S… anyone know that ? thanks Il giorno 04/giu/2014, alle ore 01:15, Maurice James mja...@media-node.com ha scritto: The VM becomes its own system, you will have to enable the firewall on the VM itself. Windows Firewall for Windows clients and Iptables or Firewalld for Linux clients - Original Message - From: Ovirt User ldrt8...@gmail.com To: Maurice James mja...@media-node.com Cc: users@ovirt.org Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2014 3:33:10 PM Subject: Re: [ovirt-users] Firewall? the vm's thanks Il giorno 03/giu/2014, alle ore 17:39, Maurice James mja...@media-node.com ha scritto: Do you want to protect the VMs or the manager? - Original Message - From: Ovirt User ldrt8...@gmail.com To: users@ovirt.org Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2014 11:29:23 AM Subject: [ovirt-users] Firewall? Hello Guys, i'm searching for a simple firewall solution ( deny some ports etc ). It is possibile configure a firewall in the node ? to protect the vm's ? Thanks Lukas ___ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users ___ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users ___ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [ovirt-users] Firewall?
yes i know neutron, but really i don't want a server manage my L3 networks ! :-) :-)) and you ? Il giorno 04/giu/2014, alle ore 22:15, Itamar Heim ih...@redhat.com ha scritto: On 06/04/2014 04:08 PM, Maurice James wrote: As far as I know the node cannot manage the firewall on the VM, just like the node cannot manage the firewall of another node try the Security Groups support in 3.4 via the neutron integration? http://www.ovirt.org/Features/Detailed_OSN_Integration - Original Message - From: Ovirt User ldrt8...@gmail.com To: Maurice James mja...@media-node.com Cc: users@ovirt.org Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2014 1:48:13 AM Subject: Re: [ovirt-users] Firewall? thanks i know that. :) i'm asking if it is possible manage firewall rules at node level , since node manage networking for VM'S… anyone know that ? thanks Il giorno 04/giu/2014, alle ore 01:15, Maurice James mja...@media-node.com ha scritto: The VM becomes its own system, you will have to enable the firewall on the VM itself. Windows Firewall for Windows clients and Iptables or Firewalld for Linux clients - Original Message - From: Ovirt User ldrt8...@gmail.com To: Maurice James mja...@media-node.com Cc: users@ovirt.org Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2014 3:33:10 PM Subject: Re: [ovirt-users] Firewall? the vm's thanks Il giorno 03/giu/2014, alle ore 17:39, Maurice James mja...@media-node.com ha scritto: Do you want to protect the VMs or the manager? - Original Message - From: Ovirt User ldrt8...@gmail.com To: users@ovirt.org Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2014 11:29:23 AM Subject: [ovirt-users] Firewall? Hello Guys, i'm searching for a simple firewall solution ( deny some ports etc ). It is possibile configure a firewall in the node ? to protect the vm's ? Thanks Lukas ___ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users ___ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users ___ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users
[ovirt-users] Firewall?
Hello Guys, i'm searching for a simple firewall solution ( deny some ports etc ). It is possibile configure a firewall in the node ? to protect the vm's ? Thanks Lukas ___ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [ovirt-users] Firewall?
Do you want to protect the VMs or the manager? - Original Message - From: Ovirt User ldrt8...@gmail.com To: users@ovirt.org Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2014 11:29:23 AM Subject: [ovirt-users] Firewall? Hello Guys, i'm searching for a simple firewall solution ( deny some ports etc ). It is possibile configure a firewall in the node ? to protect the vm's ? Thanks Lukas ___ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users ___ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [ovirt-users] Firewall?
the vm's thanks Il giorno 03/giu/2014, alle ore 17:39, Maurice James mja...@media-node.com ha scritto: Do you want to protect the VMs or the manager? - Original Message - From: Ovirt User ldrt8...@gmail.com To: users@ovirt.org Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2014 11:29:23 AM Subject: [ovirt-users] Firewall? Hello Guys, i'm searching for a simple firewall solution ( deny some ports etc ). It is possibile configure a firewall in the node ? to protect the vm's ? Thanks Lukas ___ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users ___ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [ovirt-users] Firewall?
The VM becomes its own system, you will have to enable the firewall on the VM itself. Windows Firewall for Windows clients and Iptables or Firewalld for Linux clients - Original Message - From: Ovirt User ldrt8...@gmail.com To: Maurice James mja...@media-node.com Cc: users@ovirt.org Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2014 3:33:10 PM Subject: Re: [ovirt-users] Firewall? the vm's thanks Il giorno 03/giu/2014, alle ore 17:39, Maurice James mja...@media-node.com ha scritto: Do you want to protect the VMs or the manager? - Original Message - From: Ovirt User ldrt8...@gmail.com To: users@ovirt.org Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2014 11:29:23 AM Subject: [ovirt-users] Firewall? Hello Guys, i'm searching for a simple firewall solution ( deny some ports etc ). It is possibile configure a firewall in the node ? to protect the vm's ? Thanks Lukas ___ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users ___ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [ovirt-users] Firewall?
thanks i know that. :) i'm asking if it is possible manage firewall rules at node level , since node manage networking for VM'S… anyone know that ? thanks Il giorno 04/giu/2014, alle ore 01:15, Maurice James mja...@media-node.com ha scritto: The VM becomes its own system, you will have to enable the firewall on the VM itself. Windows Firewall for Windows clients and Iptables or Firewalld for Linux clients - Original Message - From: Ovirt User ldrt8...@gmail.com To: Maurice James mja...@media-node.com Cc: users@ovirt.org Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2014 3:33:10 PM Subject: Re: [ovirt-users] Firewall? the vm's thanks Il giorno 03/giu/2014, alle ore 17:39, Maurice James mja...@media-node.com ha scritto: Do you want to protect the VMs or the manager? - Original Message - From: Ovirt User ldrt8...@gmail.com To: users@ovirt.org Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2014 11:29:23 AM Subject: [ovirt-users] Firewall? Hello Guys, i'm searching for a simple firewall solution ( deny some ports etc ). It is possibile configure a firewall in the node ? to protect the vm's ? Thanks Lukas ___ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users ___ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users
