Re: Re: First Day Disgust!
and Java web applications (what is a war, what is a web.xml file). Wicket, being component based, has great appeal for people with non-web GUI experience only. You're right about that. I included a link to a primer on Java web applications in the Wiki (http://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WICKET/Index#Index-FrameworkDocumentation). If you think we should include that link in other places, please share. Cheers, Eelco - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Re: Re: Re: First Day Disgust!
All the opinions above are my own; not the wicket community, not the developers of wicket. I really, really wish that users of open source software would show more respect to the developers who put so much time and effort into the products that those users use, however. I second this. Again, I'd like to express my thanks to all the Wicket devs for such a great framework, and all the great help and patience they consistently show on this list. Cheers to you all! - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Re: First Day Disgust!
Sorry Igor. I pack wicket app, simple wicket demo app, very well in WAR layout. If I`m not right please point me to point where wicket app border is extending WAR layout border. Robo - Originálna Správa - Od: \Igor Vaynberg\ Komu: Poslaná: 08.09.2007 23:36 Predmet: Re: Re: First Day Disgust! what you all seem to not be able to comprehend is that applications DO NOT come in a WAR layout. the war file is packaged together by combining different things from different places, and this is what the build tools are for (whether it be ant or maven). -igor On 08 Sep 2007 22:33:06 +0200 (CEST), Robo wrote: Jesus. Time spended at this endless talk read and write could be spent in writing one simple Demo app. Simple demo app reqest is very legitimate. And my vote is for demo app without Ant, Maven also. Demo App just based supposed basic knowledge of Servlet technologies, or just be familiar with WAR directory layout. Wicket is realy very simple so it would be good if this simplicity would be underscored also by demo app. Maven has its good points and also weak ones. But generaly it is used mostly on company levels and not on the levles of individial newbies. Most of them just know hov to write servlet, JSP and so on. and this I think major part of framework newbies needs to understand strength of wicket. Maven ads some virtual complication to the proces that not many newbies know maven and when seen first time they can be scared of it. So they can back off. IMHO one needs to firstly understand basic concepts, based just on very simple premises like beeign familiar with WAR and t hen this concept could be widened by using maven and point out some benefits of it. Maven + Wicket for firstimers can be simple too much and can leed to presumption that Wicket must be used with Maven. IMHO More didactic way maybe should be. 1. Needed prereq of WAR file layout 2. setup Wicket demo app on this knowledge. 3. Descrivbe what is behind curtain of wicket app on one simple wicket tag decorator. 4. describe how to enhance using Maven. Wicket is framework which is fast learnable and I beleave when getting the point you can write application within just one hour. More didactic aproach to demo could lead to greater adoption As soon as I finish my work of testing some frameworks, this could be within two weeks I can write some demo app with simple explanation taking more didactic aproach :-) just let me know to whom I can send it, and the format of the wiki. Confrontation at this thread is just useless ... Robo - Originálna Správa - Od: chickabee Komu: Poslaná: 08.09.2007 15:06 Predmet: Re: First Day Disgust! Thanks for providing me the primer on web applications and Ant and for not trying to understand what point I am trying to make here. Yes, we are not dealing with nuclear science here and Yes again wicket is just another web application, Did someone disagree with that. I hope not. Once you are out in the market to try the new webapps then it always makes sense to have people be able to get up and running on the basics w/o efforts and not to have to deal with tricks necessary to get basic app to work. A common expectation is a simple standalone app without Maven/Spring/Hibernate etc unnecessary stuff. Run \\\'ant\\\' on the command line and here u have the war file, now, make a few changes to experiment and then run \\\'ant\\\' again to have modified war. Simple. Obviously the current example is for the comfort of wicket creators and not for the comfort of prospective users and that is the problem here. Any one with basic common sense will get this up and running after a day\\\'s tinkering around, but that can be avoided by adding simple things here in the examples, that is the point I am trying to sell here only if there are buyers out there with open mind. Al Maw wrote: chickabee wrote: Thanks for the great idea. Note that this is displayed fairly prominently on the web site at http://wicket.apache.org under \\\QuickStart\\\. It believe it will be good to put a few of the examples application in their own folders and war files so that they can be studied independently without the clutter of 20 projects. We used to have this, however, grouping all the examples into one project has several big advantages: - Getting all the examples running in your IDE is much easier. - We don\\\'t have ten extra projects to manage the build files for. - We can easily link to all the examples from a single page. Another thing I notice is that maven is the default build tool used for wicket, I guess it will be good to provide the ant build.xml, just in case someone does
Re: Re: First Day Disgust!
As soon as I finish my work of testing some frameworks, this could be within two weeks I can write some demo app with simple explanation taking more didactic aproach :-) just let me know to whom I can send it, and the format of the wiki. Put it on the WIKI or e.g. blog about it please. I'm interested to see what you come up with. Do note however, that we presume basic knowledge of Java programming and Java web applications (what is a war, what is a web.xml file). There are thousands of articles and books on that, and there is no point for us to write yet another explanation on it. Anyway, thanks upfront for your contribution. Eelco - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Re: First Day Disgust!
i would if that made any sense... -igor On 08 Sep 2007 22:52:05 +0200 (CEST), Robo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry Igor. I pack wicket app, simple wicket demo app, very well in WAR layout. If I`m not right please point me to point where wicket app border is extending WAR layout border. Robo - Originálna Správa - Od: \Igor Vaynberg\ Komu: Poslaná: 08.09.2007 23:36 Predmet: Re: Re: First Day Disgust! what you all seem to not be able to comprehend is that applications DO NOT come in a WAR layout. the war file is packaged together by combining different things from different places, and this is what the build tools are for (whether it be ant or maven). -igor On 08 Sep 2007 22:33:06 +0200 (CEST), Robo wrote: Jesus. Time spended at this endless talk read and write could be spent in writing one simple Demo app. Simple demo app reqest is very legitimate. And my vote is for demo app without Ant, Maven also. Demo App just based supposed basic knowledge of Servlet technologies, or just be familiar with WAR directory layout. Wicket is realy very simple so it would be good if this simplicity would be underscored also by demo app. Maven has its good points and also weak ones. But generaly it is used mostly on company levels and not on the levles of individial newbies. Most of them just know hov to write servlet, JSP and so on. and this I think major part of framework newbies needs to understand strength of wicket. Maven ads some virtual complication to the proces that not many newbies know maven and when seen first time they can be scared of it. So they can back off. IMHO one needs to firstly understand basic concepts, based just on very simple premises like beeign familiar with WAR and t hen this concept could be widened by using maven and point out some benefits of it. Maven + Wicket for firstimers can be simple too much and can leed to presumption that Wicket must be used with Maven. IMHO More didactic way maybe should be. 1. Needed prereq of WAR file layout 2. setup Wicket demo app on this knowledge. 3. Descrivbe what is behind curtain of wicket app on one simple wicket tag decorator. 4. describe how to enhance using Maven. Wicket is framework which is fast learnable and I beleave when getting the point you can write application within just one hour. More didactic aproach to demo could lead to greater adoption As soon as I finish my work of testing some frameworks, this could be within two weeks I can write some demo app with simple explanation taking more didactic aproach :-) just let me know to whom I can send it, and the format of the wiki. Confrontation at this thread is just useless ... Robo - Originálna Správa - Od: chickabee Komu: Poslaná: 08.09.2007 15:06 Predmet: Re: First Day Disgust! Thanks for providing me the primer on web applications and Ant and for not trying to understand what point I am trying to make here. Yes, we are not dealing with nuclear science here and Yes again wicket is just another web application, Did someone disagree with that. I hope not. Once you are out in the market to try the new webapps then it always makes sense to have people be able to get up and running on the basics w/o efforts and not to have to deal with tricks necessary to get basic app to work. A common expectation is a simple standalone app without Maven/Spring/Hibernate etc unnecessary stuff. Run \\\'ant\\\' on the command line and here u have the war file, now, make a few changes to experiment and then run \\\'ant\\\' again to have modified war. Simple. Obviously the current example is for the comfort of wicket creators and not for the comfort of prospective users and that is the problem here. Any one with basic common sense will get this up and running after a day\\\'s tinkering around, but that can be avoided by adding simple things here in the examples, that is the point I am trying to sell here only if there are buyers out there with open mind. Al Maw wrote: chickabee wrote: Thanks for the great idea. Note that this is displayed fairly prominently on the web site at http://wicket.apache.org under \\\QuickStart\\\. It believe it will be good to put a few of the examples application in their own folders and war files so that they can be studied independently without the clutter of 20 projects. We used to have this, however, grouping all the examples into one project has several big advantages: - Getting all the examples running in your IDE is much easier. - We don\\\'t have ten extra projects to manage the build files for. - We
Re: Re: Re: First Day Disgust!
http://www.boingboing.net/2007/08/20/flowchart-is-it-fcke.html ^ somehow seems appropriate to this thread -igor On 9/8/07, Igor Vaynberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i would if that made any sense... -igor On 08 Sep 2007 22:52:05 +0200 (CEST), Robo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry Igor. I pack wicket app, simple wicket demo app, very well in WAR layout. If I`m not right please point me to point where wicket app border is extending WAR layout border. Robo - Originálna Správa - Od: \Igor Vaynberg\ Komu: Poslaná: 08.09.2007 23:36 Predmet: Re: Re: First Day Disgust! what you all seem to not be able to comprehend is that applications DO NOT come in a WAR layout. the war file is packaged together by combining different things from different places, and this is what the build tools are for (whether it be ant or maven). -igor On 08 Sep 2007 22:33:06 +0200 (CEST), Robo wrote: Jesus. Time spended at this endless talk read and write could be spent in writing one simple Demo app. Simple demo app reqest is very legitimate. And my vote is for demo app without Ant, Maven also. Demo App just based supposed basic knowledge of Servlet technologies, or just be familiar with WAR directory layout. Wicket is realy very simple so it would be good if this simplicity would be underscored also by demo app. Maven has its good points and also weak ones. But generaly it is used mostly on company levels and not on the levles of individial newbies. Most of them just know hov to write servlet, JSP and so on. and this I think major part of framework newbies needs to understand strength of wicket. Maven ads some virtual complication to the proces that not many newbies know maven and when seen first time they can be scared of it. So they can back off. IMHO one needs to firstly understand basic concepts, based just on very simple premises like beeign familiar with WAR and t hen this concept could be widened by using maven and point out some benefits of it. Maven + Wicket for firstimers can be simple too much and can leed to presumption that Wicket must be used with Maven. IMHO More didactic way maybe should be. 1. Needed prereq of WAR file layout 2. setup Wicket demo app on this knowledge. 3. Descrivbe what is behind curtain of wicket app on one simple wicket tag decorator. 4. describe how to enhance using Maven. Wicket is framework which is fast learnable and I beleave when getting the point you can write application within just one hour. More didactic aproach to demo could lead to greater adoption As soon as I finish my work of testing some frameworks, this could be within two weeks I can write some demo app with simple explanation taking more didactic aproach :-) just let me know to whom I can send it, and the format of the wiki. Confrontation at this thread is just useless ... Robo - Originálna Správa - Od: chickabee Komu: Poslaná: 08.09.2007 15:06 Predmet: Re: First Day Disgust! Thanks for providing me the primer on web applications and Ant and for not trying to understand what point I am trying to make here. Yes, we are not dealing with nuclear science here and Yes again wicket is just another web application, Did someone disagree with that. I hope not. Once you are out in the market to try the new webapps then it always makes sense to have people be able to get up and running on the basics w/o efforts and not to have to deal with tricks necessary to get basic app to work. A common expectation is a simple standalone app without Maven/Spring/Hibernate etc unnecessary stuff. Run \\\'ant\\\' on the command line and here u have the war file, now, make a few changes to experiment and then run \\\'ant\\\' again to have modified war. Simple. Obviously the current example is for the comfort of wicket creators and not for the comfort of prospective users and that is the problem here. Any one with basic common sense will get this up and running after a day\\\'s tinkering around, but that can be avoided by adding simple things here in the examples, that is the point I am trying to sell here only if there are buyers out there with open mind. Al Maw wrote: chickabee wrote: Thanks for the great idea. Note that this is displayed fairly prominently on the web site at http://wicket.apache.org under \\\QuickStart\\\. It believe it will be good to put a few of the examples application in their own folders and war files so that they can be studied
Re: Re: Re: Re: First Day Disgust!
It will Igor, just go on ... Robo - Originálna Správa - Od: \Igor Vaynberg\ Komu: Poslaná: 08.09.2007 23:46 Predmet: Re: Re: Re: First Day Disgust! i would if that made any sense... -igor On 08 Sep 2007 22:52:05 +0200 (CEST), Robo wrote: Sorry Igor. I pack wicket app, simple wicket demo app, very well in WAR layout. If I`m not right please point me to point where wicket app border is extending WAR layout border. Robo __ http://www.tahaj.sk - Stiahnite si najnovsie verzie vasich oblubenych programov - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Re: Re: First Day Disgust!
May be a little bit of respect and honesty to wicket newcomers, and also understand why there are their needs and be abowe the matter , would help you ... Yet another useless atack ... teacher ... - Originálna Správa - Od: \Igor Vaynberg\ Komu: Poslaná: 08.09.2007 23:49 Predmet: Re: Re: Re: First Day Disgust! http://www.boingboing.net/2007/08/20/flowchart-is-it-fcke.html ^ somehow seems appropriate to this thread -igor __ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Re: Re: First Day Disgust!
also, demos come in many fashions, the starter demo for an eclipse user differs from a netbeans user and differs from a maven user or notepad/vi/command line user various demos to serve various build or IDE enviroment. it may not be helpful when a maven only developer is trying to show a NB only developer how to write a demo in wicket or otherwise. IMO links to various build envrioments should be made open and am sure sample demo projects are all over the place On 08 Sep 2007 23:00:32 +0200 (CEST), Robo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It will Igor, just go on ... Robo - Originálna Správa - Od: \Igor Vaynberg\ Komu: Poslaná: 08.09.2007 23:46 Predmet: Re: Re: Re: First Day Disgust! i would if that made any sense... -igor On 08 Sep 2007 22:52:05 +0200 (CEST), Robo wrote: Sorry Igor. I pack wicket app, simple wicket demo app, very well in WAR layout. If I`m not right please point me to point where wicket app border is extending WAR layout border. Robo __ http://www.tahaj.sk - Stiahnite si najnovsie verzie vasich oblubenych programov - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Re: Re: First Day Disgust!
well thats the thing about maven. it generates setups for different ides. so cd wicket mvn eclipse:eclipse - builds eclipse config mvn idea:idea - builds idea config mvn netbeans:netbeans - builds netbeans config after you do that all thats left is to import the created project into the ide. -igor On 9/8/07, Ayodeji Aladejebi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: also, demos come in many fashions, the starter demo for an eclipse user differs from a netbeans user and differs from a maven user or notepad/vi/command line user various demos to serve various build or IDE enviroment. it may not be helpful when a maven only developer is trying to show a NB only developer how to write a demo in wicket or otherwise. IMO links to various build envrioments should be made open and am sure sample demo projects are all over the place On 08 Sep 2007 23:00:32 +0200 (CEST), Robo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It will Igor, just go on ... Robo - Originálna Správa - Od: \Igor Vaynberg\ Komu: Poslaná: 08.09.2007 23:46 Predmet: Re: Re: Re: First Day Disgust! i would if that made any sense... -igor On 08 Sep 2007 22:52:05 +0200 (CEST), Robo wrote: Sorry Igor. I pack wicket app, simple wicket demo app, very well in WAR layout. If I`m not right please point me to point where wicket app border is extending WAR layout border. Robo __ http://www.tahaj.sk - Stiahnite si najnovsie verzie vasich oblubenych programov - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Re: Re: First Day Disgust!
if you use netbeans 6 you can just open the maven project without even running that netbeans:netbeans command On 9/9/07, Igor Vaynberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: well thats the thing about maven. it generates setups for different ides. so cd wicket mvn eclipse:eclipse - builds eclipse config mvn idea:idea - builds idea config mvn netbeans:netbeans - builds netbeans config after you do that all thats left is to import the created project into the ide. -igor On 9/8/07, Ayodeji Aladejebi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: also, demos come in many fashions, the starter demo for an eclipse user differs from a netbeans user and differs from a maven user or notepad/vi/command line user various demos to serve various build or IDE enviroment. it may not be helpful when a maven only developer is trying to show a NB only developer how to write a demo in wicket or otherwise. IMO links to various build envrioments should be made open and am sure sample demo projects are all over the place On 08 Sep 2007 23:00:32 +0200 (CEST), Robo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It will Igor, just go on ... Robo - Originálna Správa - Od: \Igor Vaynberg\ Komu: Poslaná: 08.09.2007 23:46 Predmet: Re: Re: Re: First Day Disgust! i would if that made any sense... -igor On 08 Sep 2007 22:52:05 +0200 (CEST), Robo wrote: Sorry Igor. I pack wicket app, simple wicket demo app, very well in WAR layout. If I`m not right please point me to point where wicket app border is extending WAR layout border. Robo __ http://www.tahaj.sk - Stiahnite si najnovsie verzie vasich oblubenych programov - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.somatik.be Microsoft gives you windows, Linux gives you the whole house. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Re: Re: First Day Disgust!
i was raised on the principle that respect has to be earned, so far you have only done the opposite. a big part of earning respect is shut up or put up, look into it. as far as honesty, i dont think i have been dishonest with you yet. as far as me attacking you, i think you should grow some thicker skin if you think you are under attack. anyways, i think for a while everything from your address will go into my bitbucket, because at this point i see you as nothing but a drain. good day, -igor On 08 Sep 2007 23:07:35 +0200 (CEST), Robo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: May be a little bit of respect and honesty to wicket newcomers, and also understand why there are their needs and be abowe the matter , would help you ... Yet another useless atack ... teacher ... - Originálna Správa - Od: \Igor Vaynberg\ Komu: Poslaná: 08.09.2007 23:49 Predmet: Re: Re: Re: First Day Disgust! http://www.boingboing.net/2007/08/20/flowchart-is-it-fcke.html ^ somehow seems appropriate to this thread -igor __ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Re: Re: First Day Disgust!
On Sat, 2007-09-08 at 23:07 +0200, Robo wrote: May be a little bit of respect and honesty to wicket newcomers, and also understand why there are their needs and be abowe the matter , would help you ... Yet another useless atack ... teacher ... I am not one of the core developers, but have been a member of the wicket community for a long time. I've seen newcomers come and go. First, I'd like to say that this particular newcomer showed very little respect for the developers. The newcomer did not consider the fact that just perhaps the developers knew a tiny bit about what they where doing and that they standardized on maven and the examples layout for a reason. He either did not take the time to read the documentation on the website, or completely misunderstood it. If he did not take the time, then he seems to think that his time is so much more important than theirs that they should code everything up so that it is possible for him to understand how to set up an application in the way that he expects. It doesn't matter much that others understand what we have just fine. It doesn't fit for him, thus it must be broken. If he tried, but did not understand, then why didn't he ask questions about the parts that he didn't understand? Instead, he blasts a lot of criticism over the fence towards the developers that have done a *great* deal of work on a very fine framework. Apparently, people such as he think that the developers' time and effort is limitless and is there to satisfy his own needs. I submit that rather than attacking wicket and the methods of it's developers out of hand, a few well-placed questions surrounding the things that are really giving him trouble would serve him well. Sadly, we can't dump all the knowledge of wicket into someone's head. Any developer wanting to use any framework must invest time into learning how to use it. Wicket is really, really, easy compared to many other frameworks, and IMHO, worth the time and effort. But some effort is required. All the opinions above are my own; not the wicket community, not the developers of wicket. I really, really wish that users of open source software would show more respect to the developers who put so much time and effort into the products that those users use, however. -- Philip A. Chapman Desktop and Web Application Development: Java, .NET, PostgreSQL, MySQL, MSSQL Linux, Windows 2000, Windows XP signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Re: First Day Disgust!
With all due respect: On 9/8/07, Eelco Hillenius [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do note however, that we presume basic knowledge of Java programming ...fair enough... and Java web applications (what is a war, what is a web.xml file). Wicket, being component based, has great appeal for people with non-web GUI experience only. It does not make it your job to introduce them to this technology of course. Gabor - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
