[videoblogging] Re: 150 - Group Tipping Point?
With all due respect (and you know I love you), I don't feel comfortable (too much) about the commercial or economic side of vlogging on this list or in the video conference. After the videoconference, most of my afternoon was spent on the phone with other vloggers who wanted to talk about various economic issues, monetization, and the like. That's perhaps why the topic of divergent lists comes up. Community evolves into society. The rules of engagement change. Peace out, ER --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Michael Verdi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Oh man. I just wanted to point out a correlation I saw. I'm not sure that we need to break apart this group in a zillion pieces. We've had a number of discussions in the past about other groups and message boards and after a whole bunch of back and forth emails we come to the conclusion that we like this list the way it is (I think we've concluded this at least 3 times in the last 8 or 9 months). That's not to say that things don't change. There are several other lists - there is an RSS list, a business list, and a content list. I'm subscribed to the content list but there hasn't been an email there in months because they just end up here. FYI, Verdi On Jul 22, 2005, at 12:14 PM, David Meade wrote: --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Stephanie Bryant [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anyway, some possible sub-groups that could evolve out of this one: 1) Vlogger-newbies: ... 2) Vlogger-politics: ... 3) Vlogger-press: ... 4) Vlogger-legal: ... 5) Vlogger-tech: ... 6) Vlogger-compose: ... Yeah, I was thinking the other day that this had grown large enough that a more forum-style board (where posts can be grouped into sub-topics) would be helpful. Maybe thats a good topic for vloggercon :-) YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "videoblogging" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[videoblogging] Re: 150 - Group Tipping Point?
around the 22/7/05 Zadi mentioned about [videoblogging] Re: 150 - Group Tipping Point? that: I've been a member of the group since I think October of last year, and you do see a difference. Even though the numbers were steadily increasing, there wasn't much change in the way the members of the group communicated with one another. Then, yes, there did seem to be a spike - a tipping point - a bubbling over, or whatever you may want to call it. It's almost as if our brain cells can handle a fixed number of information. Like there is a certain line where realizing the similarities turns into noticing the differences. in this case I think it is that in the early days we had true early adopters around a common cause. Now it's a free for all and so we get trolls, people who think they want to video blog but apparently can't read the manuals that come with their cameras, computers, editing software and blogs (I know that rains on some parades but if this was, say, a doco list and someone asked naive questions like happen here you'd be told pretty quickly that you were confusing home movies with documentary practice). And good work and excellent ideas. The issue is not so much the size (I am on lists much bigger than this that still 'work') but the mix, it is specialised but keeps pretending it isn't and then the list, as a list, gets all confused about what to do when it goes off topic, or rancour sets in, or for the 34th time someone wants to know what RSS is, etc -- cheers Adrian Miles hypertext.RMIT URL:http://hypertext.rmit.edu.au/vlog SPONSORED LINKS Individual Fireant YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "videoblogging" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [videoblogging] Re: 150 - Group Tipping Point?
On 7/22/05, Stephanie Bryant [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And then Lucas comes along and just effortlessly implemented it without splitting into separate lists or forums or whatever: Subject line tags! I used to run a very active forum about CD-recording (back when that was a hot new technology) which had a similar development cycle and eventually ran into similar problems. We tried subject-line tagging and it worked pretty well, but in that case it was easily enforced because I moderated every single message before it was posted (I had to - this was a corporate-sponsored list). It's harder to make it stick in an unmoderated group, but is certainly worth a try, especially if we stay on each other (politely) to do it. It's especially useful to use very basic Mac/PC tags, so that at least Mac and PC people can more easily ignore each others' questions about specific software, which tend to be of zero interest to the opposite camp (we had that problem in CD-R as well, with the Mac people generally being unbearably smug about how easy everything was for them grin). I eventually started monthly newsletters for those who liked to get information but did not want to wade through all the messages. I originally wrote these myself, drawing inspiration and info from the group. Of course, I was being paid to do it (later even had budget to hire an editor and writers), which certainly helps! There are lots of informative sites and articles about vlogging, a few of which are noted on the group intro. Once upon a time we tried to be more organized about putting more articles on videoblogging.info, and there are quite a few on some very specific topics there. I don't know if new members get some sort of form letter when they join informing them of all these resources? It might be helpful to add to that (and the group intro page on Yahoo) the suggestion than people search the archive for specific topics before asking a question, since some questions tend to come around and around. If an automatic welcome message cannot be generated by Yahoo, I would suggest that someone (um, Jay?) post one every day that we have new members, title it Welcome to the Group or something so the rest of us learn to ignore it. -- best regards, Deirdré Straughan www.straughan.com (personal) www.tvblob.com (work) YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "videoblogging" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[videoblogging] Re: 150 - Group Tipping Point?
Honestly, I just dont join many email lists. If I do, most of them have a finite lifespan (like planning committee lists, or yearly event lists that are dead most of the time). If any part of this list moves away-- content producers, programmers, whatever-- I will be bummed and miss the info. I LOVE the info, just dont love the fire. Maybe the flamers can get their own list? The Videoflammers List? I'm like Andrew right now: I know I should not be contributing to the noise, but I still am. schlomo http://schlomolog.blogspot.com --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Michael Verdi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There are several other lists - there is an RSS list, a business list, and a content list. I'm subscribed to the content list but there hasn't been an email there in months because they just end up here. FYI, Verdi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "videoblogging" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [videoblogging] Re: 150 - Group Tipping Point?
I love this list just as it is. The flames and chaos just contribute to the cookin' flavor, and the theory, art, and socializing make for an incredibly creative community. SPONSORED LINKS Individual Fireant YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "videoblogging" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[videoblogging] Re: 150 - Group Tipping Point?
sounds like you're talking about a forum, stephanie. that's a really good idea. yahoo groups are great for small groups but not so great for large ones. a forum structure would be very beneficial. also, every forum i've ever been on always has a social thread for off topic fun. it's important here to keep a lid on the socializing because of the structure of yahoo groups but i think it's important to be able to relax and get to know one another socially as well. anne http://8bitme.blogspot.com http://nopractice.blogspot.com --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Stephanie Bryant [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chris, dude everyone on this list is a narcissist, to one degree or another. Anyway, some possible sub-groups that could evolve out of this one: 1) Vlogger-newbies: Make sure a core handful of old-timers spanning a broad range of technical expertise stay in the group and keep their eyes open to questions and help people out. 2) Vlogger-politics: Vlogs in the political sphere 3) Vlogger-press: Vlogs in their relationships with press/mass-media (ex: Cheryl's Hollywood insider types of vlogs, but also the Vlogging Press Kit) 4) Vlogger-legal: Legal issues/wrangles relating to vlogging (ex: a site reusing or distributing your work without permission or site hits, CC discussion, litigation, legislation, etc.) 5) Vlogger-tech: Talking about changes in technology, bleeding edge, etc. 6) Vlogger-compose: Discussion of the non-technical part of vlogs: public speaking, composition of the shot and the video, editing choices, movie length, etc. 7) Vlogger-chat: Side BS that has not much to do with vlogging, but is interesting nonetheless. And a possible 8th: Vlogger-reviews: People post commentary about the vlogs they're watching, or reviews of vlogs, just as long as it doesn't become a critique group or a recurring OMG, Verdi is teh bestest!!! (i.e., re-reviewing the same vlogs over and over and over). I think a 9th would eventually evolve, but probably not be called vlogger-, but rather cellvlogging for the video-camera-phone vloggers. --Stephanie SPONSORED LINKS Individual Fireant YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "videoblogging" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [videoblogging] Re: 150 - Group Tipping Point?
Oh man. I just wanted to point out a correlation I saw. I'm not sure that we need to break apart this group in a zillion pieces. We've had a number of discussions in the past about other groups and message boards and after a whole bunch of back and forth emails we come to the conclusion that we like this list the way it is (I think we've concluded this at least 3 times in the last 8 or 9 months). That's not to say that things don't change. There are several other lists - there is an RSS list, a business list, and a content list. I'm subscribed to the content list but there hasn't been an email there in months because they just end up here. FYI, Verdi On Jul 22, 2005, at 12:14 PM, David Meade wrote: --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Stephanie Bryant [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anyway, some possible sub-groups that could evolve out of this one: 1) Vlogger-newbies: ... 2) Vlogger-politics: ... 3) Vlogger-press: ... 4) Vlogger-legal: ... 5) Vlogger-tech: ... 6) Vlogger-compose: ... Yeah, I was thinking the other day that this had grown large enough that a more forum-style board (where posts can be grouped into sub-topics) would be helpful. Maybe thats a good topic for vloggercon :-) SPONSORED LINKS Individual Fireant YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "videoblogging" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[videoblogging] Re: 150 - Group Tipping Point?
Heres my summary of the forum idea, incorporating some past points by various people: Forum idea good because: Better seperation of topics in all sorts of ways People can chat without causing the whole group too much traffic Good search facilities Scales up to more users/posts better than a single list User interface other features could be better than yahoo (or could be worse) Forum idea bad because: Some people like email and dont like forums (eg wont remember to go to forums) Some people dont want topics to split Some people Not everyone will rush to use the new forum and so this list may continue to be main hub of communication and the forum remains barren Someone has to host it/set it up (probably not a problem) Personally I favour forums but I wouldnt even try to convince peopel to switch unless the forum system used offered the ability for people to receive messages by email in an intuitive way, and the thing generally looked good and offered people feature incentives to switch, otherwise it may fail or split the community. Cheers Steve of Elbows --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Andreas Haugstrup [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:54:16 +0200, Stephanie Bryant [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anyway, some possible sub-groups that could evolve out of this one: And before someone goes out and creates all these groups keep these things in mind. - The forum vs. e-mail discussion has surfaced more than once. If you haven't been around that long it would be helpful to go back and read the old threads. - One split-off happened with the videoblogging_content group. The result was that many messages were cross posted between the two lists. What precautions do you propose so this won't happen again? - Andreas -- URL:http://www.solitude.dk/ Commentary on media, communication, culture and technology. YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "videoblogging" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[videoblogging] Re: 150 - Group Tipping Point?
It's an interesting study in sociology. I've been a member of the group since I think October of last year, and you do see a difference. Even though the numbers were steadily increasing, there wasn't much change in the way the members of the group communicated with one another. Then, yes, there did seem to be a spike - a tipping point - a bubbling over, or whatever you may want to call it. It's almost as if our brain cells can handle a fixed number of information. Like there is a certain line where realizing the similarities turns into noticing the differences. (...Wondering if this is how early settlers feel. How tribes form. How wars are started. How peace may be inevitable as long as we are human beings (this is where we should strive to rewire ourselves) talk about off-topic. :)) Forums have come up a number of times. It's coming up regularly now. Maybe it is a viable option at this point. I know I scan this list pretty fast, just to make sure I don't miss important info, but I don't feel as connected to it as I used to be. I belong to a couple of other forums and there is still a sense of community. You just feel like you're traveling from room to room, rather than trying to shout in a big convention hall. Maybe a forum could work symbiotically with the yahoo group. In any case, this group has been valuable to me as I learned to vlog. It would be a shame if other newcomers don't get to have the same experience of community. Z. http://smashface.com/vlog PS: Michael, if you're liking Tipping Point, you should also pick up Freakonomics and Blink. They are pretty good too. SPONSORED LINKS Individual Fireant YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "videoblogging" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [videoblogging] Re: 150 - Group Tipping Point?
On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 19:52:56 +0200, Steve Watkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Someone has to host it/set it up (probably not a problem) It will become a problem. Bandwidth costs for high volume forums are not to be underestimated. Remember that there is a lot more fluff on a webforum than in an e-mail, and that every time someone wants to read a message in a forum the entire thread has to be loaded. And you left out the most important point. It is very hard to figure out what's new and what's old in a forum compared the a mailing list. There's a lot of clicking around and reading old messages to find the new ones. And forums are dumb in the sense that they will mark off all new messages are seen even if you just pop in for a second to read one new message. I cna think of a few ways to make forums more clever, but I'm not going to program a whole forum-package just for this (I also don't want to pay the bandwidth bills). - Andreas -- URL:http://www.solitude.dk/ Commentary on media, communication, culture and technology. SPONSORED LINKS Individual Fireant YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "videoblogging" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[videoblogging] Re: 150 - Group Tipping Point?
Wow. I meant how war may be inevitable... invitability of peace sounds better though... (...Wondering if this is how early settlers feel. How tribes form. How wars are started. How peace may be inevitable as long as we are human beings (this is where we should strive to rewire ourselves) talk about off-topic. :)) On vlogging/iTunes podcasting - here's an article: Is Apple Thwarting Independent Music Podcasters? Despite the widespread proliferation of podcasts through Apple's new iTunes version 4.9, it appears music podcasters that legally distribute independent music are being left behind and effectively locked out of the iTunes podcast directory, which is fast becoming the primary vehicle to find podcasts. http://musicpodcasting.org/ SPONSORED LINKS Individual Fireant YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "videoblogging" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [videoblogging] Re: 150 - Group Tipping Point?
I've been part of many on-line communities over the years, and (as has been mentioned here several times) there are a few common patterns that often happen. If you haven't already seen it, I strongly recommend reading Clay Shirky's A Group is its own Worst Enemy available at: http://www.shirky.com/writings/group_enemy.html This group, however, is a little bit special. Many on-line communities live or die solely on the written words that form them. If a divisive flame war erupts, there is little or no way to try and defuse it that won't be taken as an attack by at least some participants. We are special because we have another channel, a rich and powerful one that can shine a bright light and reveal the inadvertent assumptions and misconceptions of text for what they are - a pale shadow of real communication. We have video. Many people have described this group as very friendly, helpful and civilised. In my opinion, one of the most important reasons is simply that we have a culture of sharing ourselves on video. Has anyone else noticed that the recent flare-ups have happened at times when there also seemed to be a drop-off in personal, heart-on-sleeve videoblog posts? My suggestion is simple. If you feel strongly. If you want to tell someone how you feel. If you think someone has misunderstood something ... Make a video. -- Frank Carver http://www.makevideo.org.uk SPONSORED LINKS Individual Fireant YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "videoblogging" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [videoblogging] Re: 150 - Group Tipping Point?
For what it's worth, I didn't suggest a forum, just proposed what a few sub-communities might be. I far prefer to read this list in my Gmail inbox, not on yet another website I have to check. And then Lucas comes along and just effortlessly implemented it without splitting into separate lists or forums or whatever: Subject line tags! Has the advantage of making topics/threads easily searchable and identifiable. I suggest that someone (else) standardize the tags, and that we all start using them ASAP. --Stephanie -- Stephanie Bryant [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.mortaine.com YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "videoblogging" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [videoblogging] Re: 150 - Group Tipping Point?
I had to stop reading the list for awhile, but I kept subscribing through gmail. I don't know if the list has become unmanagable because it consists of more people than the human brain can handle, but maybe some guidelines Maybe it would be useful to propose some guidelines for posting. For example, in this post alone, I counted the at least seven different topics, including the original; the Tipping Point proposes a maximum of 150 people in a cohesive social group: we should split the list; there should be a forum; members should practice civility; some people use gmail to view the conversation; iTunes may be thwarting independent videoblog and podcast producers; a link to the common patterns in online communities. It would be helpful (especially for those using gmail) if the topics of replies matched the subject of the original message. Another thing I've noticed is that some people post multiple messages in very short periods of time. Sorry to pick on you, Michael, but you started the topic with a post at 10:46am, then posted again at 11:59am and 1:42pm. If everyone who posts waits 24 hours before replying again on a subject, maybe we'd see some different viewpoints. This may be difficult, as the list changes so much in 24 hours that the subject you were discussing the previous day may be old and feel like yesterday's news by the time you discuss it again. Maybe this is another undesireable quality of online communication. In Saving Digital History, Jason Scott says the golden age is when you first started using something (http://tinyurl.com/cosp3, 28:00). For example, for Jay and Peter, the golden age of the list was when it was first started, very small, with a group of their immediate friends. For others who joined in November, it is when there were 30-40 regular vloggers who posted often. For those who joined a few months ago, it was when E.L. Woody was making a stink (I remember reading an Anti blog post that said he thought it was cool E.L. was mixing things up on the list). So I think that rather than changing drastically a few weeks ago, I think the list has been in a status of constant change, and will continue to be. As for an answer, I've been meaning to summarize the list everyday on videoblogging.info. However, as this would be an entirely volunteer effort, I keep procrastinating... --Yves YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "videoblogging" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
