Re: [videoblogging] Re: Zoom H4N Audio Recorder
On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 9:36 PM, Brook Hinton bhin...@gmail.com wrote: Excellent resources and info, Rob, thanks! Should go in the wiki if its still around... Jay? (I can't find the link for some reason). Here it is: http://videoblogginggroup.pbworks.com/ We started this wiki several years ago to remember useful links or explanations. Please add/edit as necessary. Sometimes it's useful when someone asks a question that was answered in detail in previous messages. Jay -- http://ryanishungry.com http://momentshowing.net http://twitter.com/jaydedman 917 371 6790
[videoblogging] Re: Zoom H4N Audio Recorder
Hi Brook-- Recording quiet sounds raises the audio performance bar considerably doesn't it? Using carefully selected outboard gear is about only solution which is possible on a restricted budget. Pardon my unsolicited elaboration here: Mic Self-Noise: Its best if the mic's self-noise rating its 10 dB(A) or lower. The AT 4073's spec of 16dB(A) is respectable but if you're after ambience in natural settings, 16 dB(A) will produce a lot more hiss than 8 dB(A) A list of mics with under 17dB(A) self-noise can be found here: http://tinyurl.com/yd55yvh The built-in mics in the Sony M10 have 17 dB(A) self-noise which is much quieter than the built-in mics in the other hand-held recorders except for the D1 and D50, but still not ideal for quiet sounds. The plethora of small electret mics out there like those at microphonemadness.com are noisy, like 22dB(A) and usually higher. There's one, expensive, difficult to acquire, exception. I compiled this comparison sheet a year ago (.doc download) http://tinyurl.com/ykdesaj but the bottom line is, this class of electret mics is generally too noisy for recording quiet sounds and this includes most mics manufacturers supply with audio and audio/optical recorders. Recorder Input Noise: Here's a chart that one can use, reliably, to rank the noise performances difference audio recorders will produce _when used with mics with low very self-noise_: http://www.avisoft.com/recordertests.htm If Raimund's input noise the measurement is in the neighborhood of -124 dBu (A weighted) and lower (smaller negative numbers), the self-noise from better mics should mostly mask that of the recorder's mic preamp even at the highest gain. If you're after really quiet sound material like ambience in the quietest settings, you'll notice the improvements of using the lowest self-noise mics [5 -8dB(A)] and recorders with input noise measurements the neighborhood of -127 dBu (A weighted) or lower. Noting the inverse of the role of mic self-noise is useful in planning purchases too. If the mics one uses most of the time have high self-noise, this noise will usually cover-up the noise produced by most camcorder and hand-held recorder pres. A telling way to test whether a mic you are considering is a good investment for your existing recorder is to borrow and include a very low self-noise mic in a listening test that compare these recording chains: (1) A very low noise condenser mic like a Rode NT1-A - Rolls PB224 or Art Phantom II ($50-$70 portable phantom power supplies**) - 3.5mm mic input of camcorder/hand-held at max gain. (2) The condenser/phantom powered mic in question - Rolls PB224 or Art Phantom II - 3.5mm mic input of camcorder/hand-held at max gain. (3) Electret or other cheap mics - 3.5mm mic input of camcorder/hand-held at max gain. (4) Built-in Mics at full gain. Record the same, low volume steady state sound like room ambience at full gain with all of the recording chains. Match the playback levels perceptually in a sound mixing app and play the samples back to back. You should be able to hear what's producing the noise in each of the recording chains and get a much better idea of what your noise performance needs are and how to plan purchases, etc. Make sure all units are running on battery power and record for periods long enough to get a minimum, steady background level for each gear combination. 10 minutes is usually long enough. ** These units will not introduce any noise so all of the noise can be attributed to mic self-noise or mic pre input noise. As an aside, the Beachtek unit I tested when looking into using low noise condenser mics with camcorders and the like did seem to add noise to the record chain. There's more about using these inexpensive phantom powering units under Budget low noise recording here: https://pantherfile.uwm.edu/type/www/audio-reports/HiMD/index.htm Rob D. --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Brook Hinton bhin...@... wrote: Right now either the built-ins, borrowed coresound mics (I don't know which exact model, their in the midrange binaural category) or the 4073's via a beachtek box and inline phantom power adapter. Probably going to get my own stealth externals - looking at stuff from microphonemadness.com. I notice the noise more partly because I do a lot of recording of very quiet sounds, and because I'm used to HHB and Tascam Dat units from not so way back when. Brook On Sat, Jan 30, 2010 at 11:19 PM, Rupert Howe rup...@... wrote: Thanks, Brook - I haven't seen the noise mentioned by anybody else. What mics do you use with its mini-jack inputs? I'm presuming from what you say that you don't use your XLR mics via a beachbox? R On 29 Jan 2010, at 21:42, Brook Hinton wrote: The H4n has XLR inputs but unfortunately the mic preamps are really noisy. I almost got one, since I have AT4073's which are really fantastic shotgun mics, but
[videoblogging] Re: Zoom H4N Audio Recorder
Joly-- If you're using the default 100 gain setting and the minimum sensitivity setting and still getting distortion with line and mic inputs, there's probably nothing else you can try with the H2. There are reports of engineering shortcuts in the design of the mic and line input stages of the H2 that might be the cause of overloading even at the minimum sensitivity setting. (I'm sorry, but I can't lay my hands on the link to the best discussion of the issue I know of at the moment.) As to whether the Zoom H4N uses a similar circuit design, that's a very good question. Maybe start with the Zoom User List and search terms like loud, overload, distortion? Rob D. --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Joly MacFie j...@... wrote: I shoot loud bands and my problem is that the level just overloads the pre-amps in my Zoom H2's - so preamp noise is not a problem. Does the H4N have better 'loud' capability one wonders? --- Joly MacFie 917 442 8665 Skype:punkcast WWWhatsup NYC - http://wwwhatsup.com http://pinstand.com - http://punkcast.com ---
Re: [videoblogging] Re: Zoom H4N Audio Recorder
Excellent resources and info, Rob, thanks! Should go in the wiki if its still around... Jay? (I can't find the link for some reason). On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 7:48 AM, danielson_audio t...@uwm.edu wrote: Joly-- If you're using the default 100 gain setting and the minimum sensitivity setting and still getting distortion with line and mic inputs, there's probably nothing else you can try with the H2. There are reports of engineering shortcuts in the design of the mic and line input stages of the H2 that might be the cause of overloading even at the minimum sensitivity setting. (I'm sorry, but I can't lay my hands on the link to the best discussion of the issue I know of at the moment.) As to whether the Zoom H4N uses a similar circuit design, that's a very good question. Maybe start with the Zoom User List and search terms like loud, overload, distortion? Rob D. --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com videoblogging%40yahoogroups.com, Joly MacFie j...@... wrote: I shoot loud bands and my problem is that the level just overloads the pre-amps in my Zoom H2's - so preamp noise is not a problem. Does the H4N have better 'loud' capability one wonders? -- Joly MacFie 917 442 8665 Skype:punkcast WWWhatsup NYC - http://wwwhatsup.com http://pinstand.com - http://punkcast.com -- -- ___ Brook Hinton film/video/audio art www.brookhinton.com studio vlog/blog: www.brookhinton.com/temporalab [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/videoblogging/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/videoblogging/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: videoblogging-dig...@yahoogroups.com videoblogging-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: videoblogging-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [videoblogging] Re: Zoom H4N Audio Recorder
The H4n has XLR inputs but unfortunately the mic preamps are really noisy. I almost got one, since I have AT4073's which are really fantastic shotgun mics, but the noise was a deal killer. I shoot loud bands and my problem is that the level just overloads the pre-amps in my Zoom H2's - so preamp noise is not a problem. Does the H4N have better 'loud' capability one wonders? Yes, double system is great, but I would at least look into an editing sync program such as Singular Software's PluralEyes. http://www.singularsoftware.com/pluraleyes.html Very interesting - I've got a project with 4 sources of noisy audio I'm on right now - I'm going to give it a spin! j -- --- Joly MacFie 917 442 8665 Skype:punkcast WWWhatsup NYC - http://wwwhatsup.com http://pinstand.com - http://punkcast.com --- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [videoblogging] Re: Zoom H4N Audio Recorder
Joly, if you are using external mics a couple of inline mic pads will solve the distortion problem. With the internals, not sure what you could do. I shoot loud bands and my problem is that the level just overloads the pre-amps in my Zoom H2's - so preamp noise is not a problem. Does the H4N have better 'loud' capability one wonders? ___ Brook Hinton film/video/audio art www.brookhinton.com studio vlog/blog: www.brookhinton.com/temporalab [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[videoblogging] Re: Zoom H4N Audio Recorder
--- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Rupert Howe rup...@... wrote: Further to our discussions about sound, I saw a Zoom H4N audio recorder in action on a Canon 5D Mk2 shoot a couple of weeks ago, and I'm going to get one for myself. It's a portable audio recorder with XLR inputs and on board mics. Yes, double system is great, but I would at least look into an editing sync program such as Singular Software's PluralEyes. http://www.singularsoftware.com/pluraleyes.html It looks as if it would also be ideal for multi-camera situations. I have not used this software myself, but I am looking forward to trying it out. Stan Stan Hirson http://PinePlainsViews.com http://Hestakaup.com
