Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you've become an artist?] Fair Pricing for Independent Documentaries
Oops, I didn't check the reply to button carefully enough. Sorry everyone. But hey, there's a good question embedded in there about volume sales anyway, so feel free to answer if you like. M- __ Matt Ball Media Services Librarian University of Virginia mattb...@virginia.edu<https://mail.eservices.virginia.edu/owa/redir.aspx?C=f9bb9e66e0cb45eb9c98da126198ad7e&URL=mailto%3amattball%40virginia.edu> 434-924-3812 From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu [mailto:videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of Ball, James (jmb4aw) Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 4:23 PM To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you've become an artist?] Fair Pricing for Independent Documentaries Hi Elizabeth, Sorry for my tardy reply. I always think that summer is going to be the time when I get SOOOooo much done, but for some reason my summer months seem busier than the rest of the school year. Anyway, as I speak with more distributors I'm getting a better feel for their (your) business models, which is good because the more I know the more I know (as my mom used to say). It seems like the sticking point is usually that, because of the niche market for these kinds of videos, there simply isn't the guarantee of volume sales that would make lowering a price from $300.00 to $30.00 reasonable. Is that true for you, or is your situation different? Cheers, Matt Matt Ball Media and Collections Librarian University of Virginia Charlottesville, VA 22904 mattb...@virginia.edu<mailto:mattb...@virginia.edu> | 434-924-3812 From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu [videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] on behalf of Elizabeth Stanley [elizab...@bullfrogfilms.com] Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 12:28 PM To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you've become an artist?] Fair Pricing for Independent Documentaries Hello, Matt, You've got my attention. Let's talk. Elizabeth Bullfrog Films 800-543-3764 From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu [mailto:videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of Ball, James (jmb4aw) Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 10:13 AM To: Subject: Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you've become an artist?] A lot of the collecting I do is based on faculty requests but they're requesting Glee and Twilight. An equally large chunk of the collecting I do, though, is based on what I think we *should* have to support broader curricular needs, and a lot of that comes from distributors like Bullfrog, Icarus, Women Make Movies, etc. But those titles are so expensive that I can only afford to buy a few per year. However, if independent documentary filmmakers sold their films for $30.00 each I would increase my total purchases from them times ten, probably more. I'm not kidding. Nothing would make me happier than flipping through catalogs with a shiny red marker circling all of the titles I would love to have. For me, I would be getting amazing content at a cost that aligns with a pricing model that's supportable under the constraints of my institution's collection development strategies and budget priorities. For the filmmakers and distributors it means that I would be buying more titles, possibly multiple copies, of videos that I wouldn't have even considered before, and if I'm willing to do that then I bet there are at least four other media librarians who'd do the same. There, the filmmakers are still making money (maybe more) and the visibility of their films has increased five-fold. Or is it four? Anyway, you see my point. Elizabeth, Meredith, Karen, are you interested? $30.00 per title, no PPR, and I promise to buy at least 10 times the number of titles I bought last year. Or perhaps there's another mutually beneficial pricing model out there... Matt __ Matt Ball Media and Collections Librarian University of Virginia mattb...@virginia.edu<mailto:mattb...@virginia.edu> 434-924-3812 On Jun 24, 2011, at 8:13 PM, "Jessica Rosner" mailto:jessicapros...@gmail.com>> wrote: As someone who works with independent documentary filmmakers, let me tell you they would be THRILLED to sell their films at $25 or $30 if they had a chance in hell of selling 5 times as many as they would at $250. The subject matter is generally geared towards the academic community or at least not to the popular topics that sell in the thousands and they have a lot of expenses to recoup and it is a bitch to distribute. These are simply not the same as the more popular $19.95 to $29.95 videos you will find at the retail level and keep in mind the distributor only gets back 60% or so on thing sold through third parties like Amazon. I as
Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you've become an artist?] Fair Pricing for Independent Documentaries
Hi Elizabeth, Sorry for my tardy reply. I always think that summer is going to be the time when I get SOOOooo much done, but for some reason my summer months seem busier than the rest of the school year. Anyway, as I speak with more distributors I'm getting a better feel for their (your) business models, which is good because the more I know the more I know (as my mom used to say). It seems like the sticking point is usually that, because of the niche market for these kinds of videos, there simply isn't the guarantee of volume sales that would make lowering a price from $300.00 to $30.00 reasonable. Is that true for you, or is your situation different? Cheers, Matt Matt Ball Media and Collections Librarian University of Virginia Charlottesville, VA 22904 mattb...@virginia.edu<mailto:mattb...@virginia.edu> | 434-924-3812 From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu [videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] on behalf of Elizabeth Stanley [elizab...@bullfrogfilms.com] Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 12:28 PM To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you've become an artist?] Fair Pricing for Independent Documentaries Hello, Matt, You've got my attention. Let's talk. Elizabeth Bullfrog Films 800-543-3764 From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu [mailto:videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of Ball, James (jmb4aw) Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 10:13 AM To: Subject: Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you’ve become an artist?] A lot of the collecting I do is based on faculty requests but they're requesting Glee and Twilight. An equally large chunk of the collecting I do, though, is based on what I think we *should* have to support broader curricular needs, and a lot of that comes from distributors like Bullfrog, Icarus, Women Make Movies, etc. But those titles are so expensive that I can only afford to buy a few per year. However, if independent documentary filmmakers sold their films for $30.00 each I would increase my total purchases from them times ten, probably more. I'm not kidding. Nothing would make me happier than flipping through catalogs with a shiny red marker circling all of the titles I would love to have. For me, I would be getting amazing content at a cost that aligns with a pricing model that's supportable under the constraints of my institution's collection development strategies and budget priorities. For the filmmakers and distributors it means that I would be buying more titles, possibly multiple copies, of videos that I wouldn't have even considered before, and if I'm willing to do that then I bet there are at least four other media librarians who'd do the same. There, the filmmakers are still making money (maybe more) and the visibility of their films has increased five-fold. Or is it four? Anyway, you see my point. Elizabeth, Meredith, Karen, are you interested? $30.00 per title, no PPR, and I promise to buy at least 10 times the number of titles I bought last year. Or perhaps there's another mutually beneficial pricing model out there... Matt __ Matt Ball Media and Collections Librarian University of Virginia mattb...@virginia.edu<mailto:mattb...@virginia.edu> 434-924-3812 On Jun 24, 2011, at 8:13 PM, "Jessica Rosner" mailto:jessicapros...@gmail.com>> wrote: As someone who works with independent documentary filmmakers, let me tell you they would be THRILLED to sell their films at $25 or $30 if they had a chance in hell of selling 5 times as many as they would at $250. The subject matter is generally geared towards the academic community or at least not to the popular topics that sell in the thousands and they have a lot of expenses to recoup and it is a bitch to distribute. These are simply not the same as the more popular $19.95 to $29.95 videos you will find at the retail level and keep in mind the distributor only gets back 60% or so on thing sold through third parties like Amazon. I assure you if 1500 institutions would actually buy a wonderful series of films on the post genocide justice system in Rwanda or even one on Gerrymandering ( to plug the ones I deal with) the directors would be over the moon to sell them for $25 knowing more people could see them. When good documentaries are carried by public libraries at a fraction of the rate of bad action movies then you will see a huge drop in prices, heck if just one in every 500 university libraries bought them you would see the same. On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 7:31 PM, <<mailto:ghand...@library.berkeley.edu>ghand...@library.berkeley.edu<mailto:ghand...@library.berkeley.edu>> wrote: Original Message Subject: Re: [V
Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you've become an artist?
107 > phone: 415.284.7800 x302 > fax: 415.284.7801 > l...@newsreel.org > www.newsreel.org > -Original Message- > From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu > [mailto:videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of > videolib-requ...@lists.berkeley.edu > Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 9:39 AM > To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu > Subject: videolib Digest, Vol 44, Issue 5 > > Send videolib mailing list submissions to >videolib@lists.berkeley.edu > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > https://calmail.berkeley.edu/manage/list/listinfo/videolib@lists.berkele > y.edu > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >videolib-requ...@lists.berkeley.edu > > You can reach the person managing the list at > videolib-ow...@lists.berkeley.edu > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of videolib digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: How do you know when you've become an artist?] Fair > Pricing for Independent Documentaries (Elizabeth Stanley) > 2. Re: How do you know when you?ve become an artist?] > (Ball, James (jmb4aw)) > > > -- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 12:28:43 -0400 > From: Elizabeth Stanley > Subject: Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you've become an artist?] >Fair Pricing for Independent Documentaries > To: "videolib@lists.berkeley.edu" > Message-ID: ><0d60cf5d39dfde49ab3837411a72fbb203a532e...@bfsbs08.bf.local> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Hello, Matt, > > You've got my attention. Let's talk. > > Elizabeth > Bullfrog Films > 800-543-3764 > > > From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu > [mailto:videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of Ball, James > (jmb4aw) > Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 10:13 AM > To: > Subject: Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you've become an artist?] > > A lot of the collecting I do is based on faculty requests but they're > requesting Glee and Twilight. An equally large chunk of the collecting > I do, though, is based on what I think we *should* have to support > broader curricular needs, and a lot of that comes from distributors like > Bullfrog, Icarus, Women Make Movies, etc. But those titles are so > expensive that I can only afford to buy a few per year. > > However, if independent documentary filmmakers sold their films for > $30.00 each I would increase my total purchases from them times ten, > probably more. I'm not kidding. Nothing would make me happier than > flipping through catalogs with a shiny red marker circling all of the > titles I would love to have. For me, I would be getting amazing content > at a cost that aligns with a pricing model that's supportable under the > constraints of my institution's collection development strategies and > budget priorities. For the filmmakers and distributors it means that I > would be buying more titles, possibly multiple copies, of videos that I > wouldn't have even considered before, and if I'm willing to do that then > I bet there are at least four other media librarians who'd do the same. > > There, the filmmakers are still making money (maybe more) and the > visibility of their films has increased five-fold. Or is it four? > Anyway, you see my point. > > Elizabeth, Meredith, Karen, are you interested? $30.00 per title, no > PPR, and I promise to buy at least 10 times the number of titles I > bought last year. > > Or perhaps there's another mutually beneficial pricing model out > there... > > Matt > > __ > Matt Ball > Media and Collections Librarian > University of Virginia > mattb...@virginia.edu<mailto:mattb...@virginia.edu> > 434-924-3812 > > On Jun 24, 2011, at 8:13 PM, "Jessica Rosner" > mailto:jessicapros...@gmail.com>> wrote: > > As someone who works with independent documentary filmmakers, let me > tell you they would be THRILLED to sell their films at $25 or $30 if > they had a chance in hell of selling 5 times as many as they would at > $250. The subject matter is generally geared towards the academic > community or at least not to the popular topics that sell in the > thousands and they have a lot of expenses to recoup and it is a bitch to > distribute. These are simply not the same as the more popular $19.95 to > $29.95 videos you will find at the retail level and keep in mind the >
Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you've become an artist?
Everyone, This is a really important discussion to have that goes to the core of so much, though perhaps difficult to have it effectively on a listserv -- and right before a long weekend. We might need to take this into another forum to try to come up with some solutions that work for all -- media librarians, distributors and producers. All parties need to better understand the changing financial realities and other forces that we must adapt to. I've worked with a number of producers and distributors over the years, most recently The Video Project. Pricing has always been a really troubling issue, as you know. Many distributors have experimented with home video level pricing and it hasn't produced nearly enough return to warrant substantially reducing pricing. And now, there are new challenges with budget cuts, the web, digital options, and many producer opting for limited or full self-distribution (and not knowing what they're doing, in many cases, unfortunately). I think it needs to be said that college and university media purchases have been the primary revenue base for smaller doc distributors. In effect, they've supported the making and distribution of independent documentaries, not to mention being the lifeblood of distributors. Without that base of support, I don't think we'd see for much longer the kind of documentaries that are currently being made. And it's already a serious challenge. Few filmmakers ever make back the hundreds of thousands of dollars they may put into producing a film. So, we need to come up with some collective solutions that will work for all parties. Anyone have a suggestion for how and where we can best pursue this? NMM is one option of course. Maybe there could be some in person regional discussion before that. And is there another online forum that would work better? Best, Steve Ladd -- -- 925.254-2052 -- st...@laddmedia.com -- http://www.laddmedia.com/ -- http://www.videoproject.com VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors.
Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you've become an artist?
t;economics? Entertainment vs. education; print vs. moving images? > > > >3, If a title is bought for reference use, like a scholarly monograph, > >(in Gary's distinction, if it's in the collection "just in case" someone > >needs to consult it), I agree $30 would be a reasonable price. In that > >case, would you be willing to limits its use to 30 people, $1 per > >screening, less than an article from J-Stor? I find it hard to believe > >that in the digital age its use couldn't be metered. It seems fair to > >pay a low royalty to the producer of a film which is rarely used but > >unfair to pay the same royalty to a producer whose film is seen by > >hundreds of students or to ask that producer to subsidize your reference > >collection. > > > >4. Broadly speaking you're asking distributors to give you a 90% > >discount on our products. What if we were to say, we would be delighted > >to do that the minute Elsevier or Sage or the University of Virginia > >Press matched our offer? Or when your telephone, internet or electricity > >provider does the same? Have you thought of going to them and saying you > >had a budget crunch so could they please give you a 90% cut in your > >telephone bill? Could you also promise them that if they did you would > >make ten times as many telephone calls? Perhaps in this case, we are > >really talking about companies with economic power vs. companies which > >can be pushed around? > > > >Newsreel admits that it can be pushed around and independent filmmakers > >can be pushed around as well. That's our crusts and margarine.. And if > >there's one thing the past few years have demonstrated, it's who wins in > >a contest between economics and ethics. > > > >Best Wishes > >Larry > > > > > >Lawrence Daressa > >California Newsreel > >500 Third Street, #505 > >San Francisco, CA 94107 > >phone: 415.284.7800 x302 > >fax: 415.284.7801 > >l...@newsreel.org > >www.newsreel.org > >-Original Message- > >From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu > >[mailto:videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of > >videolib-requ...@lists.berkeley.edu > >Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 9:39 AM > >To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu > >Subject: videolib Digest, Vol 44, Issue 5 > > > >Send videolib mailing list submissions to > > videolib@lists.berkeley.edu > > > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > > >https://calmail.berkeley.edu/manage/list/listinfo/videolib@lists.berkele > >y.edu > > > >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > videolib-requ...@lists.berkeley.edu > > > >You can reach the person managing the list at > > videolib-ow...@lists.berkeley.edu > > > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > >than "Re: Contents of videolib digest..." > > > > > >Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: How do you know when you've become an artist?] Fair > > Pricing for Independent Documentaries (Elizabeth Stanley) > > 2. Re: How do you know when you?ve become an artist?] > > (Ball, James (jmb4aw)) > > > > > >-- > > > >Message: 1 > >Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 12:28:43 -0400 > >From: Elizabeth Stanley > >Subject: Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you've become an artist?] > > Fair Pricing for Independent Documentaries > >To: "videolib@lists.berkeley.edu" > >Message-ID: > > <0d60cf5d39dfde49ab3837411a72fbb203a532e...@bfsbs08.bf.local> > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > >Hello, Matt, > > > >You've got my attention. Let's talk. > > > >Elizabeth > >Bullfrog Films > >800-543-3764 > > > > > >From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu > >[mailto:videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of Ball, James > >(jmb4aw) > >Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 10:13 AM > >To: > >Subject: Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you've become an artist?] > > > >A lot of the collecting I do is based on faculty requests but they're > >requesting Glee and Twilight. An equally large chunk of the collecting > >I do, though, is based on what I think we *should* have to support > >broader curricular needs, and a lot of that comes from distributors like > >Bullfrog,
Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you've become an artist?
ock concert), why they, their >>>parents or the taxpayers will only pay pennies for them to see a serious >>>educational documentary. If over the life of a DVD or digital license >>>300 people saw a film at the University of Virginia, the effective price >>>at $30 would be $.10. I suspect if a title were used at all widely in >>>the curriculum that would be possible. Similarly, if five students use a >>>$150 textbook (resold four times) the effective price is $30 or 300 time >>>more. Aren't we really talking about an issue of values rather than >>>economics? Entertainment vs. education; print vs. moving images? >>> >>>3, If a title is bought for reference use, like a scholarly monograph, >>>(in Gary's distinction, if it's in the collection "just in case" someone >>>needs to consult it), I agree $30 would be a reasonable price. In that >>>case, would you be willing to limits its use to 30 people, $1 per >>>screening, less than an article from J-Stor? I find it hard to believe >>>that in the digital age its use couldn't be metered. It seems fair to >>>pay a low royalty to the producer of a film which is rarely used but >>>unfair to pay the same royalty to a producer whose film is seen by >>>hundreds of students or to ask that producer to subsidize your reference >>>collection. >>> >>>4. Broadly speaking you're asking distributors to give you a 90% >>>discount on our products. What if we were to say, we would be delighted >>>to do that the minute Elsevier or Sage or the University of Virginia >>>Press matched our offer? Or when your telephone, internet or electricity >>>provider does the same? Have you thought of going to them and saying you >>>had a budget crunch so could they please give you a 90% cut in your >>>telephone bill? Could you also promise them that if they did you would >>>make ten times as many telephone calls? Perhaps in this case, we are >>>really talking about companies with economic power vs. companies which >>>can be pushed around? >>> >>>Newsreel admits that it can be pushed around and independent filmmakers >>>can be pushed around as well. That's our crusts and margarine.. And if >>>there's one thing the past few years have demonstrated, it's who wins in >>>a contest between economics and ethics. >>> >>>Best Wishes >>>Larry >>> >>> >>>Lawrence Daressa >>>California Newsreel >>>500 Third Street, #505 >>>San Francisco, CA 94107 >>>phone: 415.284.7800 x302 >>>fax: 415.284.7801 >>>l...@newsreel.org >>>www.newsreel.org >>>-Original Message- >>>From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu >>>[mailto:videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of >>>videolib-requ...@lists.berkeley.edu >>>Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 9:39 AM >>>To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu >>>Subject: videolib Digest, Vol 44, Issue 5 >>> >>>Send videolib mailing list submissions to >>> videolib@lists.berkeley.edu >>> >>>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>> >>>https://calmail.berkeley.edu/manage/list/listinfo/videolib@lists.berkele >>>y.edu >>> >>>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>> videolib-requ...@lists.berkeley.edu >>> >>>You can reach the person managing the list at >>> videolib-ow...@lists.berkeley.edu >>> >>>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >>>than "Re: Contents of videolib digest..." >>> >>> >>>Today's Topics: >>> >>> 1. Re: How do you know when you've become an artist?] Fair >>> Pricing for Independent Documentaries (Elizabeth Stanley) >>> 2. Re: How do you know when you?ve become an artist?] >>> (Ball, James (jmb4aw)) >>> >>> >>>-- >>> >>>Message: 1 >>>Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 12:28:43 -0400 >>>From: Elizabeth Stanley >>>Subject: Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you've become an artist?] >>> Fair Pricing for Independent Documentaries >>>To: "videolib@lists.berkeley.edu" >>>Message-ID: >>> <0d60cf5d39dfde49ab3837411a72fbb203a532e...@bfsbs08.bf.local> >>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-asci
Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you've become an artist?
uot;just in case" someone >>needs to consult it), I agree $30 would be a reasonable price. In that >>case, would you be willing to limits its use to 30 people, $1 per >>screening, less than an article from J-Stor? I find it hard to believe >>that in the digital age its use couldn't be metered. It seems fair to >>pay a low royalty to the producer of a film which is rarely used but >>unfair to pay the same royalty to a producer whose film is seen by >>hundreds of students or to ask that producer to subsidize your reference >>collection. >> >>4. Broadly speaking you're asking distributors to give you a 90% >>discount on our products. What if we were to say, we would be delighted >>to do that the minute Elsevier or Sage or the University of Virginia >>Press matched our offer? Or when your telephone, internet or electricity >>provider does the same? Have you thought of going to them and saying you >>had a budget crunch so could they please give you a 90% cut in your >>telephone bill? Could you also promise them that if they did you would >>make ten times as many telephone calls? Perhaps in this case, we are >>really talking about companies with economic power vs. companies which >>can be pushed around? >> >>Newsreel admits that it can be pushed around and independent filmmakers >>can be pushed around as well. That's our crusts and margarine.. And if >>there's one thing the past few years have demonstrated, it's who wins in >>a contest between economics and ethics. >> >>Best Wishes >>Larry >> >> >>Lawrence Daressa >>California Newsreel >>500 Third Street, #505 >>San Francisco, CA 94107 >>phone: 415.284.7800 x302 >>fax: 415.284.7801 >>l...@newsreel.org >>www.newsreel.org >>-Original Message- >>From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu >>[mailto:videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of >>videolib-requ...@lists.berkeley.edu >>Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 9:39 AM >>To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu >>Subject: videolib Digest, Vol 44, Issue 5 >> >>Send videolib mailing list submissions to >> videolib@lists.berkeley.edu >> >>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> >>https://calmail.berkeley.edu/manage/list/listinfo/videolib@lists.berkele >>y.edu >> >>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> videolib-requ...@lists.berkeley.edu >> >>You can reach the person managing the list at >> videolib-ow...@lists.berkeley.edu >> >>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >>than "Re: Contents of videolib digest..." >> >> >>Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: How do you know when you've become an artist?] Fair >> Pricing for Independent Documentaries (Elizabeth Stanley) >> 2. Re: How do you know when you?ve become an artist?] >> (Ball, James (jmb4aw)) >> >> >>-- >> >>Message: 1 >>Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 12:28:43 -0400 >>From: Elizabeth Stanley >>Subject: Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you've become an artist?] >> Fair Pricing for Independent Documentaries >>To: "videolib@lists.berkeley.edu" >>Message-ID: >> <0d60cf5d39dfde49ab3837411a72fbb203a532e...@bfsbs08.bf.local> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >>Hello, Matt, >> >>You've got my attention. Let's talk. >> >>Elizabeth >>Bullfrog Films >>800-543-3764 >> >> >>From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu >>[mailto:videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of Ball, James >>(jmb4aw) >>Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 10:13 AM >>To: >>Subject: Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you've become an artist?] >> >>A lot of the collecting I do is based on faculty requests but they're >>requesting Glee and Twilight. An equally large chunk of the collecting >>I do, though, is based on what I think we *should* have to support >>broader curricular needs, and a lot of that comes from distributors like >>Bullfrog, Icarus, Women Make Movies, etc. But those titles are so >>expensive that I can only afford to buy a few per year. >> >>However, if independent documentary filmmakers sold their films for >>$30.00 each I would increase my total purchases from them times ten, >>probably more. I'm not kidding
Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you've become an artist?
; or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >videolib-requ...@lists.berkeley.edu > > You can reach the person managing the list at >videolib-ow...@lists.berkeley.edu > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of videolib digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: How do you know when you've become an artist?] Fair > Pricing for Independent Documentaries (Elizabeth Stanley) > 2. Re: How do you know when you?ve become an artist?] > (Ball, James (jmb4aw)) > > > -- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 12:28:43 -0400 > From: Elizabeth Stanley > Subject: Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you've become an artist?] >Fair Pricing for Independent Documentaries > To: "videolib@lists.berkeley.edu" > Message-ID: ><0d60cf5d39dfde49ab3837411a72fbb203a532e...@bfsbs08.bf.local> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Hello, Matt, > > You've got my attention. Let's talk. > > Elizabeth > Bullfrog Films > 800-543-3764 > > > From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu > [mailto:videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of Ball, James > (jmb4aw) > Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 10:13 AM > To: > Subject: Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you've become an artist?] > > A lot of the collecting I do is based on faculty requests but they're > requesting Glee and Twilight. An equally large chunk of the collecting > I do, though, is based on what I think we *should* have to support > broader curricular needs, and a lot of that comes from distributors like > Bullfrog, Icarus, Women Make Movies, etc. But those titles are so > expensive that I can only afford to buy a few per year. > > However, if independent documentary filmmakers sold their films for > $30.00 each I would increase my total purchases from them times ten, > probably more. I'm not kidding. Nothing would make me happier than > flipping through catalogs with a shiny red marker circling all of the > titles I would love to have. For me, I would be getting amazing content > at a cost that aligns with a pricing model that's supportable under the > constraints of my institution's collection development strategies and > budget priorities. For the filmmakers and distributors it means that I > would be buying more titles, possibly multiple copies, of videos that I > wouldn't have even considered before, and if I'm willing to do that then > I bet there are at least four other media librarians who'd do the same. > > There, the filmmakers are still making money (maybe more) and the > visibility of their films has increased five-fold. Or is it four? > Anyway, you see my point. > > Elizabeth, Meredith, Karen, are you interested? $30.00 per title, no > PPR, and I promise to buy at least 10 times the number of titles I > bought last year. > > Or perhaps there's another mutually beneficial pricing model out > there... > > Matt > > __ > Matt Ball > Media and Collections Librarian > University of Virginia > mattb...@virginia.edu<mailto:mattb...@virginia.edu> > 434-924-3812 > > On Jun 24, 2011, at 8:13 PM, "Jessica Rosner" > mailto:jessicapros...@gmail.com>> wrote: > > As someone who works with independent documentary filmmakers, let me > tell you they would be THRILLED to sell their films at $25 or $30 if > they had a chance in hell of selling 5 times as many as they would at > $250. The subject matter is generally geared towards the academic > community or at least not to the popular topics that sell in the > thousands and they have a lot of expenses to recoup and it is a bitch to > distribute. These are simply not the same as the more popular $19.95 to > $29.95 videos you will find at the retail level and keep in mind the > distributor only gets back 60% or so on thing sold through third parties > like Amazon. I assure you if 1500 institutions would actually buy a > wonderful series of films on the post genocide justice system in Rwanda > or even one on Gerrymandering ( to plug the ones I deal with) the > directors would be over the moon to sell them for $25 knowing more > people could see them. When good documentaries are carried by public > libraries at a fraction of the rate of bad action movies then you will > see a huge drop in prices, heck if just one in every 500 university > libraries bought them you would see the same. > > On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 7:31 PM, > &l
Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you've become an artist?
did you would >make ten times as many telephone calls? Perhaps in this case, we are >really talking about companies with economic power vs. companies which >can be pushed around? > >Newsreel admits that it can be pushed around and independent filmmakers >can be pushed around as well. That's our crusts and margarine.. And if >there's one thing the past few years have demonstrated, it's who wins in >a contest between economics and ethics. > >Best Wishes >Larry > > >Lawrence Daressa >California Newsreel >500 Third Street, #505 >San Francisco, CA 94107 >phone: 415.284.7800 x302 >fax: 415.284.7801 >l...@newsreel.org >www.newsreel.org >-Original Message- >From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu >[mailto:videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of >videolib-requ...@lists.berkeley.edu >Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 9:39 AM >To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu >Subject: videolib Digest, Vol 44, Issue 5 > >Send videolib mailing list submissions to > videolib@lists.berkeley.edu > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > >https://calmail.berkeley.edu/manage/list/listinfo/videolib@lists.berkele >y.edu > >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > videolib-requ...@lists.berkeley.edu > >You can reach the person managing the list at > videolib-ow...@lists.berkeley.edu > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >than "Re: Contents of videolib digest..." > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: How do you know when you've become an artist?] Fair > Pricing for Independent Documentaries (Elizabeth Stanley) > 2. Re: How do you know when you?ve become an artist?] > (Ball, James (jmb4aw)) > > >-- > >Message: 1 >Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 12:28:43 -0400 >From: Elizabeth Stanley >Subject: Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you've become an artist?] > Fair Pricing for Independent Documentaries >To: "videolib@lists.berkeley.edu" >Message-ID: > <0d60cf5d39dfde49ab3837411a72fbb203a532e...@bfsbs08.bf.local> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >Hello, Matt, > >You've got my attention. Let's talk. > >Elizabeth >Bullfrog Films >800-543-3764 > > >From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu >[mailto:videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of Ball, James >(jmb4aw) >Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 10:13 AM >To: >Subject: Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you've become an artist?] > >A lot of the collecting I do is based on faculty requests but they're >requesting Glee and Twilight. An equally large chunk of the collecting >I do, though, is based on what I think we *should* have to support >broader curricular needs, and a lot of that comes from distributors like >Bullfrog, Icarus, Women Make Movies, etc. But those titles are so >expensive that I can only afford to buy a few per year. > >However, if independent documentary filmmakers sold their films for >$30.00 each I would increase my total purchases from them times ten, >probably more. I'm not kidding. Nothing would make me happier than >flipping through catalogs with a shiny red marker circling all of the >titles I would love to have. For me, I would be getting amazing content >at a cost that aligns with a pricing model that's supportable under the >constraints of my institution's collection development strategies and >budget priorities. For the filmmakers and distributors it means that I >would be buying more titles, possibly multiple copies, of videos that I >wouldn't have even considered before, and if I'm willing to do that then >I bet there are at least four other media librarians who'd do the same. > >There, the filmmakers are still making money (maybe more) and the >visibility of their films has increased five-fold. Or is it four? >Anyway, you see my point. > >Elizabeth, Meredith, Karen, are you interested? $30.00 per title, no >PPR, and I promise to buy at least 10 times the number of titles I >bought last year. > >Or perhaps there's another mutually beneficial pricing model out >there... > >Matt > >__ >Matt Ball >Media and Collections Librarian >University of Virginia >mattb...@virginia.edu<mailto:mattb...@virginia.edu> >434-924-3812 > >On Jun 24, 2011, at 8:13 PM, "Jessica Rosner" >mailto:jessicapros...@gmail.com>> wrote: > >As someone who works with independent documentary filmmakers, let
Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you've become an artist?
Dear Matt, As a non-profit organization, Newsreel feels our first commitment is get our films seen by as many people as possible, so we would prefer you to buy ten films at $30 dollars, than one at $300. But, at the same time, we think it's important to pay the producers of a film a royalty which reflects its use and value in education; in that way they can make more films, so you'll have more than "Twilight" to buy. So, your post raises a few idle questions in my mind. 1. I trust "Twilight" is not widely used in the curriculum of the University of Virginia. Students traditionally have not read or seen what they wanted but what they were assigned. This may have changed and, if so, you should have no trouble finding appropriate instruction media for $19.95 a DVD. But it would seem unnecessary for the University to buy that title since it's been demonstrated those students will pay $10 to see it anyhow at commercial theatres or pay $19.95 for a DVD or $2.00 for an i-Tunes. 2. Filmmakers always ask us if students can afford to pay those amounts (to say nothing of $50 or $100 for a rock concert), why they, their parents or the taxpayers will only pay pennies for them to see a serious educational documentary. If over the life of a DVD or digital license 300 people saw a film at the University of Virginia, the effective price at $30 would be $.10. I suspect if a title were used at all widely in the curriculum that would be possible. Similarly, if five students use a $150 textbook (resold four times) the effective price is $30 or 300 time more. Aren't we really talking about an issue of values rather than economics? Entertainment vs. education; print vs. moving images? 3, If a title is bought for reference use, like a scholarly monograph, (in Gary's distinction, if it's in the collection "just in case" someone needs to consult it), I agree $30 would be a reasonable price. In that case, would you be willing to limits its use to 30 people, $1 per screening, less than an article from J-Stor? I find it hard to believe that in the digital age its use couldn't be metered. It seems fair to pay a low royalty to the producer of a film which is rarely used but unfair to pay the same royalty to a producer whose film is seen by hundreds of students or to ask that producer to subsidize your reference collection. 4. Broadly speaking you're asking distributors to give you a 90% discount on our products. What if we were to say, we would be delighted to do that the minute Elsevier or Sage or the University of Virginia Press matched our offer? Or when your telephone, internet or electricity provider does the same? Have you thought of going to them and saying you had a budget crunch so could they please give you a 90% cut in your telephone bill? Could you also promise them that if they did you would make ten times as many telephone calls? Perhaps in this case, we are really talking about companies with economic power vs. companies which can be pushed around? Newsreel admits that it can be pushed around and independent filmmakers can be pushed around as well. That's our crusts and margarine.. And if there's one thing the past few years have demonstrated, it's who wins in a contest between economics and ethics. Best Wishes Larry Lawrence Daressa California Newsreel 500 Third Street, #505 San Francisco, CA 94107 phone: 415.284.7800 x302 fax: 415.284.7801 l...@newsreel.org www.newsreel.org -Original Message- From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu [mailto:videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of videolib-requ...@lists.berkeley.edu Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 9:39 AM To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu Subject: videolib Digest, Vol 44, Issue 5 Send videolib mailing list submissions to videolib@lists.berkeley.edu To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://calmail.berkeley.edu/manage/list/listinfo/videolib@lists.berkele y.edu or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to videolib-requ...@lists.berkeley.edu You can reach the person managing the list at videolib-ow...@lists.berkeley.edu When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of videolib digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: How do you know when you've become an artist?] Fair Pricing for Independent Documentaries (Elizabeth Stanley) 2. Re: How do you know when you?ve become an artist?] (Ball, James (jmb4aw)) -------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 12:28:43 -0400 From: Elizabeth Stanley Subject: Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you've become an artist?] Fair Pricing for Independent Documentaries To: "videolib@lists.berkeley.edu" Message-ID: <0d60cf5d39dfde49ab3837411a72fbb203a532e...@bfsbs08.
Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you've become an artist?] Fair Pricing for Independent Documentaries
Hello, Matt, You've got my attention. Let's talk. Elizabeth Bullfrog Films 800-543-3764 From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu [mailto:videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of Ball, James (jmb4aw) Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 10:13 AM To: Subject: Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you've become an artist?] A lot of the collecting I do is based on faculty requests but they're requesting Glee and Twilight. An equally large chunk of the collecting I do, though, is based on what I think we *should* have to support broader curricular needs, and a lot of that comes from distributors like Bullfrog, Icarus, Women Make Movies, etc. But those titles are so expensive that I can only afford to buy a few per year. However, if independent documentary filmmakers sold their films for $30.00 each I would increase my total purchases from them times ten, probably more. I'm not kidding. Nothing would make me happier than flipping through catalogs with a shiny red marker circling all of the titles I would love to have. For me, I would be getting amazing content at a cost that aligns with a pricing model that's supportable under the constraints of my institution's collection development strategies and budget priorities. For the filmmakers and distributors it means that I would be buying more titles, possibly multiple copies, of videos that I wouldn't have even considered before, and if I'm willing to do that then I bet there are at least four other media librarians who'd do the same. There, the filmmakers are still making money (maybe more) and the visibility of their films has increased five-fold. Or is it four? Anyway, you see my point. Elizabeth, Meredith, Karen, are you interested? $30.00 per title, no PPR, and I promise to buy at least 10 times the number of titles I bought last year. Or perhaps there's another mutually beneficial pricing model out there... Matt __ Matt Ball Media and Collections Librarian University of Virginia mattb...@virginia.edu<mailto:mattb...@virginia.edu> 434-924-3812 On Jun 24, 2011, at 8:13 PM, "Jessica Rosner" mailto:jessicapros...@gmail.com>> wrote: As someone who works with independent documentary filmmakers, let me tell you they would be THRILLED to sell their films at $25 or $30 if they had a chance in hell of selling 5 times as many as they would at $250. The subject matter is generally geared towards the academic community or at least not to the popular topics that sell in the thousands and they have a lot of expenses to recoup and it is a bitch to distribute. These are simply not the same as the more popular $19.95 to $29.95 videos you will find at the retail level and keep in mind the distributor only gets back 60% or so on thing sold through third parties like Amazon. I assure you if 1500 institutions would actually buy a wonderful series of films on the post genocide justice system in Rwanda or even one on Gerrymandering ( to plug the ones I deal with) the directors would be over the moon to sell them for $25 knowing more people could see them. When good documentaries are carried by public libraries at a fraction of the rate of bad action movies then you will see a huge drop in prices, heck if just one in every 500 university libraries bought them you would see the same. On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 7:31 PM, <<mailto:ghand...@library.berkeley.edu>ghand...@library.berkeley.edu<mailto:ghand...@library.berkeley.edu>> wrote: Original Message Subject: Re: [Videonews] How do you know when you've become an artist? From: <mailto:ghand...@library.berkeley.edu> ghand...@library.berkeley.edu<mailto:ghand...@library.berkeley.edu> Date: Fri, June 24, 2011 4:31 pm To: "Video Library News" <<mailto:videon...@lists.berkeley.edu>videon...@lists.berkeley.edu<mailto:videon...@lists.berkeley.edu>> -- Problem isn't solved if the expensive title they've taken out and lost is out of distribution. All depends on the mission of your collection (and whether preservation for long-haul to support teaching and research is part of it) Gary (who's cool in Berkeley) > At the University of Southern California we have in our collection > at least 750 documentary films costing $250 or more. And no effetism > here. All such films fully circulate. And if a student happens > to lose such an item then said student is fully obliged to reimburse the > costs of the film. Problem solved--and it is a policy that seems > very much to work for us. > > And greetings from ALA and New Orleans! > > Cheers! > Anthony > > *** > Ant
