[VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar
Well. I really can't see that the technical difficulty of fingering 20003 is really much greater than 20033; and the suggestion that using the 3rd fret to act as a pivot (for example to play 00232), whilst certainly true, is a bit desperate: we're really not looking at any very difficult chord shapes or chord changes here. I still prefer my explanation for 20033: including that it results in a reasonably equal mix of thirds and fifths in the harmony (especially if the French/Corbetta tuning is employed) - see earlier. regards Martyn --- On Wed, 12/9/12, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar To: RALPH MAIER rkcma...@shaw.ca Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, 12 September, 2012, 20:36 I don't think that it is particularly convenient or good practice to finger the chord in the way you suggest. It is quite awkward as both 2nd and 4th fingers are in the way. I do wonder whether you have actually tried it in conjunction with other chords. Some of the chords are quite difficult to finger and playing sequences of them in quick succession does require a lot of practice. The fingering of them is given in many of the sources and is the optimum method. Murcia is a different kettle of fish altogether and I think it would not be wise to get involved with that. Monica - Original Message - From: [1]RALPH MAIER To: [2]Monica Hall Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 10:58 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar The chord I'm referring to - the g chord with a doubled 3rd (20003) - can easily be fingered using 1 and 3, so I'm not sure I follow. As a side note, then, I've noticed many passages in Murcia, for example, where my inclination would be to use 4 instead of his recommendation for 3 - and here I'm referring specifically to passagework. Often times such fingerings in the sources raise interesting questions regarding articulation, especially when working under the assumption that they would have shared contemporary tastes regarding legato (not that I'm suggesting they would - on the contrary). On the other hand, it could also be something as simple as personal preferences. RM - Original Message - From: Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Date: Monday, September 10, 2012 2:09 pm Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar To: RALPH MAIER [2]rkcma...@shaw.ca Cc: Vihuelalist [3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu If anything I would say there is a definite preference for using the 4th finger but I don't think it really bears on this topic. Whichever of the two chord fingerings you chose the 1st course must be stopped at the 3rd fret with the 4th/little finger - whatever you wish to call it. Chords are sometimes re-fingered to free the 4th finger for passing notes and to insert 4-3 suspensions into chords. Monica - Original Message - From: RALPH MAIER To: Monica Hall Cc: Martyn Hodgson ; Vihuelalist Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 8:37 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar Interesting thread. Just a thought, and I'm obviously spitballing, but I wonder if there is anything that might be gleaned from this observation in regards to the use of the fourth finger in general. Is there anything in the sources that might suggest its avoidance/preference? Just curious. - Original Message - From: Monica Hall [4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Date: Monday, September 10, 2012 10:58 am Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar To: Martyn Hodgson [5]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist [6]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Well - I pointed out in my original message that the earliest sources of alfabeto - i.e. Montesardo and the Cancionero Bezon - actually give the 20003 version. I think that the reason for this is that on the 4-course guitar the equivalent is 0003 and initially the most convenient note on the 5th course was just added. So the real question is why did they change? This morning when I was practicing I tried playing Chord A with an unstopped 2nd course in all the relevant places and it just is less convenient. The 3rd finger is floating above the fingerboard with nothing to do. And as
[VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar
With all due respect, I think when we start to assess fingerings (or any other performance issue) purely on the basis of our own technical abilities, we impose our own idiosyncrasies on the subject. That is not what we are doing here. fingering, I'm simply pointing out that, from a purely practical point of view, what is expedient in one situation might not work in another - That is precisely the point. We are/were discussing a very specific situation here - the fingering of 5-part alfabeto chords in the context of music which is entirely or predominantly strummed. flexibility tends to be an asset. My question was, when viewed collectively, do the sources actually indicate a preference, and if so, is it on the grounds of what seems most expedient, or are there other reasons? Yes - alfabeto sources indicate a clear preference which is based on what works best in practice in the context. Many of the alfabeto sources include the fingering and it is always the same. Even the table of chords in Sanz and Murcia's Resumen de accompanar give the standard fingering for the alfabeto chords. There are no advantages to doing anything different. Perhaps Murcia is a bad example (although I have to admit, I'm don't really see why). Because in the context of what we were discussing he is largely irrelevant as his music is in mixed style, indeed predominantly punteado. Best Monica Best, Ralph - Original Message - From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Date: Wednesday, September 12, 2012 1:37 pm Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar To: RALPH MAIER rkcma...@shaw.ca Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu I don't think that it is particularly convenient or good practice to finger the chord in the way you suggest. It is quite awkward as both 2nd and 4th fingers are in the way. I do wonder whether you have actually tried it in conjunction with other chords. Some of the chords are quite difficult to finger and playing sequences of them in quick succession does require a lot of practice. The fingering of them is given in many of the sources and is the optimum method. Murcia is a different kettle of fish altogether and I think it would not be wise to get involved with that. Monica - Original Message - From: [1]RALPH MAIER To: [2]Monica Hall Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 10:58 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar The chord I'm referring to - the g chord with a doubled 3rd (20003) - can easily be fingered using 1 and 3, so I'm not sure I follow. As a side note, then, I've noticed many passages in Murcia, for example, where my inclination would be to use 4 instead of his recommendation for 3 - and here I'm referring specifically to passagework. Often times such fingerings in the sources raise interesting questions regarding articulation, especially when working under the assumption that they would have shared contemporary tastes regarding legato (not that I'm suggesting they would - on the contrary). On the other hand, it could also be something as simple as personal preferences. RM - Original Message - From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Date: Monday, September 10, 2012 2:09 pm Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar To: RALPH MAIER rkcma...@shaw.ca Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu If anything I would say there is a definite preference for using the 4th finger but I don't think it really bears on this topic. Whichever of the two chord fingerings you chose the 1st course must be stopped at the 3rd fret with the 4th/little finger - whatever you wish to call it. Chords are sometimes re-fingered to free the 4th finger for passing notes and to insert 4-3 suspensions into chords. Monica - Original Message - From: RALPH MAIER To: Monica Hall Cc: Martyn Hodgson ; Vihuelalist Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 8:37 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar Interesting thread. Just a thought, and I'm obviously spitballing, but I wonder if there is anything that might be gleaned from this observation in regards to the use of the fourth finger in general. Is there anything in the sources that might suggest its avoidance/preference? Just curious. - Original Message - From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Date: Monday, September 10, 2012 10:58 am Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar
[VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar
20033; and the suggestion that using the 3rd fret to act as a pivot (for example to play 00232), whilst certainly true, is a bit desperate: In your previous message you actually said... This is also a very good and practical point! Try playing the progression A B C A at speed and insert a 4-3 suspension into chord C for good measure. It is not a question of being desperate - it just doesn't make sense to do it other than in the standard way. my explanation for 20033: including that it results in a reasonably equal mix of thirds and fifths in the harmony (especially if the French/Corbetta tuning is employed) - see earlier. Originally we were not talking about Corbetta - at least I wasn't. That is a red herring. Do you really think that the different voicings of the chord sounds appreciably different. What about all the other chords which which double the 3rd? I feel that the problem with a lot of people on this list is that they are not primarily baroque guitarists. Some of you at least play a wide range of instruments in a wide variety of styles including pop music. You are not thinking in terms of the specific styles of playing in the 17th century but approaching the subject in an abstract way. As far as harmony lessons are concerned- well - I learnt that rules are a guide to good practice but don't have to be adhered to slavishly and there are some circumstances in which they don't apply. And I studied harmony and counterpoint to degree level. Best Monica regards Martyn --- On Wed, 12/9/12, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar To: RALPH MAIER rkcma...@shaw.ca Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, 12 September, 2012, 20:36 I don't think that it is particularly convenient or good practice to finger the chord in the way you suggest. It is quite awkward as both 2nd and 4th fingers are in the way. I do wonder whether you have actually tried it in conjunction with other chords. Some of the chords are quite difficult to finger and playing sequences of them in quick succession does require a lot of practice. The fingering of them is given in many of the sources and is the optimum method. Murcia is a different kettle of fish altogether and I think it would not be wise to get involved with that. Monica - Original Message - From: [1]RALPH MAIER To: [2]Monica Hall Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 10:58 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar The chord I'm referring to - the g chord with a doubled 3rd (20003) - can easily be fingered using 1 and 3, so I'm not sure I follow. As a side note, then, I've noticed many passages in Murcia, for example, where my inclination would be to use 4 instead of his recommendation for 3 - and here I'm referring specifically to passagework. Often times such fingerings in the sources raise interesting questions regarding articulation, especially when working under the assumption that they would have shared contemporary tastes regarding legato (not that I'm suggesting they would - on the contrary). On the other hand, it could also be something as simple as personal preferences. RM - Original Message - From: Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Date: Monday, September 10, 2012 2:09 pm Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar To: RALPH MAIER [2]rkcma...@shaw.ca Cc: Vihuelalist [3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu If anything I would say there is a definite preference for using the 4th finger but I don't think it really bears on this topic. Whichever of the two chord fingerings you chose the 1st course must be stopped at the 3rd fret with the 4th/little finger - whatever you wish to call it. Chords are sometimes re-fingered to free the 4th finger for passing notes and to insert 4-3 suspensions into chords. Monica - Original Message - From: RALPH MAIER To: Monica Hall Cc: Martyn Hodgson ; Vihuelalist Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 8:37 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar Interesting thread. Just a thought, and I'm obviously spitballing, but I wonder if there is anything that might be gleaned from this observation in regards to the use of the fourth finger in general. Is there anything in the sources that might suggest its avoidance/preference? Just curious. - Original Message - From: Monica Hall [4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Date: Monday, September 10, 2012 10:58 am Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar To: Martyn
[VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar
While you're bringing up Sanz, I think there's another point to consider. We shouldn't forget that his book is titled an instruction on the guitar. In fact, it's laid out very much that way, beginning with some explanations and theory, then laying out the abecedario (what I earlier and confusingly called the alfabeto), a listing of other forms for major and minor chords, and then presenting music in a fairly graded way... Initial alfabeto passages for the rudimentary versions of common song and dance forms, a few simple punteado pieces, and then other pieces increasing in their musical and technical level. So what's my point? If you were a meticulous instructor of the guitar, and were about to lay out a fundamental chord chart, what would you do? You would use the forms and fingerings that have been recognized as standard, and that facilitate learning to play. If, for some reason, you disagreed with the standard fingering, you would probably give your fingering, and call attention to the fact that you have diverged from common practice (as Sanz does when talking about stringing the guitar, for example). I'm not aware of any controversy over the fingering of the basic chords... Probably less time was spent on the issue in the day than we have spent on this thread. (Attempt at humor) But I expect that the abecedario in Sanz's book would reflect a practice that he sees as leading most directly to mastery of the instrument, and as avoiding as much as possible the development of bad habits... As any music instructor would aim to do. Even if the advantage of a certain fingering isn't immediately apparent to the novice, it's up to the master to see the long view, and to insist on the proper form. 20003 might seem immediately easier, but 20033 will prove to be the superior fingering in the long run. That said, I also think the above-novice player has every right to finger an A as 20003 whenever he likes. (So long as it isn't a crutch for avoiding a fingering that he finds difficult. Such a crutch would defeat the purpose of avoiding bad habits.) His audience will be the judge as to whether it's better, worse, or makes no noticeable difference. And his teacher (if he has one) will probably have something to say as well. cud __ From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: RALPH MAIER rkcma...@shaw.ca Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 9:01 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar With all due respect, I think when we start to assess fingerings (or any other performance issue) purely on the basis of our own technical abilities, we impose our own idiosyncrasies on the subject. That is not what we are doing here. fingering, I'm simply pointing out that, from a purely practical point of view, what is expedient in one situation might not work in another - That is precisely the point. We are/were discussing a very specific situation here - the fingering of 5-part alfabeto chords in the context of music which is entirely or predominantly strummed. flexibility tends to be an asset. My question was, when viewed collectively, do the sources actually indicate a preference, and if so, is it on the grounds of what seems most expedient, or are there other reasons? Yes - alfabeto sources indicate a clear preference which is based on what works best in practice in the context. Many of the alfabeto sources include the fingering and it is always the same. Even the table of chords in Sanz and Murcia's Resumen de accompanar give the standard fingering for the alfabeto chords. There are no advantages to doing anything different. Perhaps Murcia is a bad example (although I have to admit, I'm don't really see why). Because in the context of what we were discussing he is largely irrelevant as his music is in mixed style, indeed predominantly punteado. Best Monica Best, Ralph - Original Message - From: Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Date: Wednesday, September 12, 2012 1:37 pm Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar To: RALPH MAIER [2]rkcma...@shaw.ca Cc: Vihuelalist [3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu I don't think that it is particularly convenient or good practice to finger the chord in the way you suggest. It is quite awkward as both 2nd and 4th fingers are in the way. I do wonder whether you have actually tried it in conjunction with other chords. Some of the chords are quite difficult to finger and playing sequences of them in quick succession does require a lot of practice. The fingering of
[VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar
On 13 September 2012 17:04, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: To reduce to absurdity: if we eliminate, say, all thirds from a chord 'Absurdity' another word for 'power chords' or for the music in which these chords commonly are used? ;-) David - not waiting for an answer to a hypothetical question. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar
Hello Friends- On this issue I do have something to contribute- a very specific example from the alfabeto repertoire (along with some shameless self-promotion!) In preparation for my recording of Grandi's 3rd volume of arias from 1626, my teacher suggested the alternate fingering 20003, which I had never used before, for a specific phrase where he felt a doubled third was really necessary for the texture. I'm not sure that I make the most of this opportunity in the promo video- I confess I can't hear the difference as well when I'm only listening, but when I'm playing it does give a clarity to the chord change that I also prefer. Now I also use it in faster passages where the major third really needs to come through strongly. [1]https://vimeo.com/47540812 The score is on the screen very briefly at 1:55 (with the chord in question on the downbeat of the final system), and the instance where the alternate fingering was proposed is at 4:50 in the first verse, with three verses to follow. This has been a very interesting thread! Thanks to everyone for your input. Bud From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 11:04:45 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar Dear Monica, Interesting as ever - my responses to yr latest are pasted in the text below rgds Martyn --- On Thu, 13/9/12, Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall [3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar To: Martyn Hodgson [4]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist [5]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 13 September, 2012, 14:18 20033; and the suggestion that using the 3rd fret to act as a pivot (for example to play 00232), whilst certainly true, is a bit desperate: In your previous message you actually said...This is also a very good and practical point! R1 Indeed I did - but in the context of generally advocating the 20033 fingering mostly for another reason (see earlier). I don't really see pivots as the principal reason why the Old Ones preferred 20033 to 20003. To repeat, yet again, I think it more to do with the distribution of notes in the chord (see my earlier) - you have a different view (also see R4 below). Try playing the progression A B C A at speed and insert a 4-3 suspension into chord C for good measure. It is not a question of being desperate - it just doesn't make sense to do it other than in the standard way. R2 It's not really particularly tricky even with the 20003 fingering - is it. But as already said, I support the general use of 20033 - it's just that making the case on the basis of such a relatively straightforward chord change is a bit - well, desperate. my explanation for 20033: including that it results in a reasonably equal mix of thirds and fifths in the harmony (especially if the French/Corbetta tuning is employed) - see earlier. Originally we were not talking about Corbetta - at least I wasn't. That is a red herring. R3. Not a red herring at all. You no doubt noted that I discussed distribution of notes in the 20033/20003 chords generally. But then went on to point out, that if the French/Corbetta tuning is employed the distribution of thirds and fifths in the 20033 configuration is much more equal than with 20003. Note I suggested that the use of a bourdon on the 4th course may be an earlier practice than commonly thought so is relevant. Evidence? - use of bourdon on the 16th century four course instrument. Do you really think that the different voicings of the chord sounds appreciably different. R4 Yes I do - I'm surprised you don't. To reduce to absurdity: if we eliminate, say, all thirds from a chord will we/you not hear a difference if a thirs is now included to replace a fifth? As an hypothetical example strum 02250 (LH fingering 114) - and now 02210. Is there not a striking difference? And so, but somewhat less, for our 20033 and 20003 friend. What about all the other chords which which double the 3rd? R5 I'm perfectly happy to agree, and have previously said so, that the alfabeto chord shapes are practical, relatively easy to finger, chords and that it was probably this that led to their use which then became codified in the alfabeto. What I don't agree with is that the playing of 20003 is so very much harder than 20033. And that I don't think this was the principal reason for the fingering's almost universal adoption in the alfabeto charts. I feel that
[VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar
R3. Not a red herring at all. You no doubt noted that I discussed distribution of notes in the 20033/20003 chords generally. But then went on to point out, that if the French/Corbetta tuning is employed the distribution of thirds and fifths in the 20033 configuration is much more equal than with 20003. It is a red herring - because by the time Corbetta published even his first book the configuration of alfabeto chords was firmly established. There is no reason why he should have preferred one version of chord A rather than another on the basis of the method of stringing he preferred. Do you really think that the different voicings of the chord sounds appreciably different. R4 Yes I do - I'm surprised you don't. Well - it is simply a matter of playing the chord and listening to it. And yes the 3rd sounds slightly more prominent if it is doubled but I don't think that any reasonable person would find that unacceptable in a 5-part chord. To reduce to absurdity: if we eliminate, say, all thirds from a chord will we/you not hear a difference if a thirs is now included to replace a fifth? But of course we will - but that is quite different from doubling the 3rd. You are leaving out a defining constituent of the chord. The chord will sound equally absurd if you leave out the 5th or even the root. All three notes must be present in the chord but which ones are doubled is a matter of convenience. As I said - once you get to writing in 5 parts or more you will sometimes have to double the 3rd. (indeed today I'm v much enjoying playing the under-performed second part of what was Prague II Ms Kk77 - do you know it? No - unfortunately I haven't got a copy of that one. Here the real technical issue is playing part strums to miss out specific courses). Is it? Is it more difficult than playing all 5? It's the same argument which applies to l-hand fingering. some things are more dfficult than others. As ever Monica Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 10:58 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar The chord I'm referring to - the g chord with a doubled 3rd (20003) - can easily be fingered using 1 and 3, so I'm not sure I follow. As a side note, then, I've noticed many passages in Murcia, for example, where my inclination would be to use 4 instead of his recommendation for 3 - and here I'm referring specifically to passagework. Often times such fingerings in the sources raise interesting questions regarding articulation, especially when working under the assumption that they would have shared contemporary tastes regarding legato (not that I'm suggesting they would - on the contrary). On the other hand, it could also be something as simple as personal preferences. RM - Original Message - From: Monica Hall [1][5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Date: Monday, September 10, 2012 2:09 pm Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar To: RALPH MAIER [2][6]rkcma...@shaw.ca Cc: Vihuelalist [3][7]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu If anything I would say there is a definite preference for using the 4th finger but I don't think it really bears on this topic. Whichever of the two chord fingerings you chose the 1st course must be stopped at the 3rd fret with the 4th/little finger - whatever you wish to call it. Chords are sometimes re-fingered to free the 4th finger for passing notes and to insert 4-3 suspensions into chords. Monica - Original Message - From: RALPH MAIER To: Monica Hall Cc: Martyn Hodgson ; Vihuelalist Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 8:37 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar Interesting thread. Just a thought, and I'm obviously spitballing, but I wonder if there is anything that might be gleaned from this observation in regards to the use of the fourth finger in general. Is there anything in the sources that might suggest its avoidance/preference? Just curious. - Original Message - From: Monica Hall [4][8]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Date: Monday, September 10, 2012 10:58 am Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar To: Martyn Hodgson [5][9]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist [6][10]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Well - I pointed out in my original message that the earliest sources of alfabeto - i.e. Montesardo and the Cancionero Bezon - actually give the 20003 version. I think that the reason for this
[VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar
Great project and very beautiful video! Thanks Bud! Arto On 13/09/12 18:29, bud roach wrote: Hello Friends- On this issue I do have something to contribute- a very specific example from the alfabeto repertoire (along with some shameless self-promotion!) In preparation for my recording of Grandi's 3rd volume of arias from 1626, my teacher suggested the alternate fingering 20003, which I had never used before, for a specific phrase where he felt a doubled third was really necessary for the texture. I'm not sure that I make the most of this opportunity in the promo video- I confess I can't hear the difference as well when I'm only listening, but when I'm playing it does give a clarity to the chord change that I also prefer. Now I also use it in faster passages where the major third really needs to come through strongly. [1]https://vimeo.com/47540812 The score is on the screen very briefly at 1:55 (with the chord in question on the downbeat of the final system), and the instance where the alternate fingering was proposed is at 4:50 in the first verse, with three verses to follow. This has been a very interesting thread! Thanks to everyone for your input. Bud To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
