[VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189) - a fresh tack!

2018-01-29 Thread mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu 
Obviously it will take me some time to reply to this message which in 
part is a response to a message which I sent to Martyn privately.

It will be all the more difficult because he has clearly not read any 
of my messages and has consistently misrepresented everything that I 
have said in them.

I will just say at this juncture that he may be entitled to send his 
messages to all of the lists if he wishes to but I don't think that he 
is entitled to send a torrent of personal abuse to any of them.

Watch this space!

As ever

Monica


Original Message
From: hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: 29/01/2018 17:16 
To: "vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu"
Subj: [VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189)  - a fresh tack!

- Forwarded Message -
   From: Martyn Hodgson 
   To: Monica Hall ; VihuelaList
   ; Baroque Lute List
   
   Sent: Monday, 29 January 2018, 17:01
   Subject: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189) - a fresh tack!
   Dear Monica,
   As you now know, I haven't yet replied to your latest open
   mailings since these had both ended by saying that you 'were going 
to
   leave it  for now' and I therefore took this as meaning I might soon
   expect something further.  Accordingly, not wishing to respond in a
   piecemeal and disjointed manner, I deliberately delayed replying and
   awaited your further thoughts. However, I shall do so now.
   
---
   --
   Regarding copying things to other lists, just to be quite clear, I
   generally copy things to other of Wayne's lists if they're relevant
   there. Hence why gallichon/mandora stuff (but usually not guitar) 
can
   find its way onto the lute lists (or, indeed, elsewhere) - it's not 
a
   fiendish plot of any kind!  But on with the motley..
   
---
   
   Our exchanges of 'textual analysis' have clearly failed to persuade
   each other of our respective cases  and therefore, to make any
   progress, another tack is now required: one more forensic perhaps 
and
   closer related to contemporary organological, musicological and 
source
   evidence.  Firstly though, to summarise our respective positions:
 - as I understand it from what you have written, your position is
   that the vast majority (about 98%) of the some 124 works for plucked
   instruments in this MS are for a six course gytarra and that just 
three
   are for a mandora (according to you a twelve course instrument with
   five fingered courses and seven free basses -  you stated that  "The
   mandora has seven unstopped basses" );
 - mine is that the 28 pieces notated with a sixth course are for
   mandora and that the remainder requiring just five courses are
   principally for gytarra (although, as I was at pains to point out
   earlier, any passably competent mandora player would easily be able 
to
   add a low sixth where suitable in the guitar pieces and similarly, 
in
   many cases, a guitarist would be able to play the errant low bass an
   octave up by employing the open third course). The couple of pieces
   which have the seven additional free basses notated also have a left
   hand fingered bass notated in the usual register and, whilst we've 
not
   discussed this so far, I believe these additional low course 
numberings
   are therefore simply later additions to these two pieces (note also
   that the scribe left off adding these low basses half way through 
the
   piece numbered 45! ).
   
---
   ---
   1. DATE OF D-189
   You stated that the MS could have been written  "anytime in the
   eighteenth century"  - but with no evidence for this assertion. I 
do,
   of course, understand why you favour such a  wide range of dates 
since
   it may help give some credence to employing a six course guitar
   (developed, in fact, only later in the eighteenth century) for all 
the
   plucked works in this collection
   However, others date the writing of this MS considerably earlier,
   including:
   James Tyler - 'early 18th century';
   Gary Boye - 'beginning of the 18th century';
   Ernst Pohlmann - 'um 1700' (around 1700);
   Jaroslav Pohanka (Principal editor of Musica Antiqua Bohemia) - 'vor
   1700 geschrieben' (written before 1700);
   My own dating (based on stylistic traits and the piece attributed  
to
   C. Loschi) is 1700 to 1720.
   Accordingly, to summarise, the best date range estimate for 
compilation
   of this MS lies between 1690 and 1720.
   
---
   --
   2. CALLICHON/MANDORA
   Around 70 extant historical mandoras/gallichons

[VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189) - a fresh tack!

2018-01-29 Thread Martyn Hodgson 
   - Forwarded Message -
   From: Martyn Hodgson 
   To: Monica Hall ; VihuelaList
   ; Baroque Lute List
   
   Sent: Monday, 29 January 2018, 17:01
   Subject: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189) - a fresh tack!
   Dear Monica,
   As you now know, I haven't yet replied to your latest open
   mailings since these had both ended by saying that you 'were going to
   leave it  for now' and I therefore took this as meaning I might soon
   expect something further.  Accordingly, not wishing to respond in a
   piecemeal and disjointed manner, I deliberately delayed replying and
   awaited your further thoughts. However, I shall do so now.
   ---
   --
   Regarding copying things to other lists, just to be quite clear, I
   generally copy things to other of Wayne's lists if they're relevant
   there. Hence why gallichon/mandora stuff (but usually not guitar) can
   find its way onto the lute lists (or, indeed, elsewhere) - it's not a
   fiendish plot of any kind!  But on with the motley..
   ---
   
   Our exchanges of 'textual analysis' have clearly failed to persuade
   each other of our respective cases  and therefore, to make any
   progress, another tack is now required: one more forensic perhaps and
   closer related to contemporary organological, musicological and source
   evidence.  Firstly though, to summarise our respective positions:
 - as I understand it from what you have written, your position is
   that the vast majority (about 98%) of the some 124 works for plucked
   instruments in this MS are for a six course gytarra and that just three
   are for a mandora (according to you a twelve course instrument with
   five fingered courses and seven free basses -  you stated that  "The
   mandora has seven unstopped basses" );
 - mine is that the 28 pieces notated with a sixth course are for
   mandora and that the remainder requiring just five courses are
   principally for gytarra (although, as I was at pains to point out
   earlier, any passably competent mandora player would easily be able to
   add a low sixth where suitable in the guitar pieces and similarly, in
   many cases, a guitarist would be able to play the errant low bass an
   octave up by employing the open third course). The couple of pieces
   which have the seven additional free basses notated also have a left
   hand fingered bass notated in the usual register and, whilst we've not
   discussed this so far, I believe these additional low course numberings
   are therefore simply later additions to these two pieces (note also
   that the scribe left off adding these low basses half way through the
   piece numbered 45! ).
   ---
   ---
   1. DATE OF D-189
   You stated that the MS could have been written  "anytime in the
   eighteenth century"  - but with no evidence for this assertion. I do,
   of course, understand why you favour such a  wide range of dates since
   it may help give some credence to employing a six course guitar
   (developed, in fact, only later in the eighteenth century) for all the
   plucked works in this collection
   However, others date the writing of this MS considerably earlier,
   including:
   James Tyler - 'early 18th century';
   Gary Boye - 'beginning of the 18th century';
   Ernst Pohlmann - 'um 1700' (around 1700);
   Jaroslav Pohanka (Principal editor of Musica Antiqua Bohemia) - 'vor
   1700 geschrieben' (written before 1700);
   My own dating (based on stylistic traits and the piece attributed  to
   C. Loschi) is 1700 to 1720.
   Accordingly, to summarise, the best date range estimate for compilation
   of this MS lies between 1690 and 1720.
   ---
   --
   2. CALLICHON/MANDORA
   Around 70 extant historical mandoras/gallichons have been identified
   made between 1688 and 1780 (most are listed in Dieter Kirsch's 'La
   mandora au XVIII siecle): the vast majority (97%) of these are six
   course instruments but a couple have more courses - one is 8 course and
   one 9 course . These two are both later eighteenth century and thus too
   late to be the sort of instruments originally employed for D-189.
   Extant instruments also well reflect contemporary iconography showing
   the overwhelming predominance of the six course mandora; and similarly
   with extant tablatures - though a very few do contain some pieces for 8
   or 9 course mandora (such as Univerzitna Kniznica Bratislava Ms 1092
   which contains galant/classical music c.1770 requiring a mandora with
   eight courses).