[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 06:17:42 -0800 (PST), Chris Despopoulos wrote I just found this -- a thesis by Natasha Frances Miles submitted to the University of Birmingham. Time permitting, I intend to give it a read. I can't imagine the guitar didn't enjoy certain burlesque qualities from time to time, and I can't imagine the young upstarts in court would have been able to resist... Calls for order, sweetness, and dignity notwithstanding. This paper might touch on that. The Baroque Guitar as an Accompaniment Instrument for Song, Dance and Theatre http://etheses.bham.ac.uk/1600/1/Miles11MPhil.pdf cud Gosh - just from the abstract: The five-course baroque guitar was regularly employed in the accompaniment of song and dance, and did so predominantly in the rasgueado style, a strummed practice unique to the instrument. Contemporary critics condemned rasgueado as crude and unrefined, and the guitar incited further scorn for its regular use in accompanying the ill-reputed dances of the lower classes. Happy reading, Ralf Mattes To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Caccini's instrument
On Sun, 18 Dec 2011 14:56:46 -, Monica Hall wrote What other instrument do you suppose that he had in mind then? The only instrument with a large enough compass to be able to reproduce the bass line below the voice part in every set of circumstances would be a keyboard instrument and possibly not all of these. Harp, esp. the triple row version. Cheers, Ralf Mattes To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Caccini's instrument
On Sun, 18 Dec 2011 15:33:43 +0100, Lex Eisenhardt wrote
Bass lines may sometimes have been simplified, and thus some of
the problems could be avoided. Occasional voice crossings with the
bass perhaps were sometimes accepted (but probably not by everyone). L
But this isn't the problem at all! There's nothing wrong with
voice crossings per se, only if the voices involved form a fifth, which
would change into a (frowned upon) forth. I have yet to find one example
where this would happen with a theorbo ...
Cheers, Ralf Mattes
- Original Message -
From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 1:24 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Caccini's instrument {was Re: Strumming as basso
continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar
[was Re: Capona?]}
Thanks Lex,
Caccini can speak for himself: 'the chitarrone is better suited to
accompany the voice, especially the tenor, than any other
instrument'.(G. Caccini, Le Nuove Musiche (Florence, 1602), sig. C2V
'Ai Lettori ... del Chitarrone ... essendo questo strumento piu atto
ad accompagnare la voce, e particolarmente quella del Tenore, che
qualunque altro.')
Further, Piccinini(1623) tells us Caccini used a chitarrone to
accompany himself before 1594.
The chitarrone did not, of course, at first have numerous long extended
basses. However it was tuned in a nominal A or G so, as previously
pointed out, the same problem would arise even if tuned in G with a
sung d and f# in the bass.
I suspect Striggio was using the term lute in a generic sense: it is
certainly not 'wrong' to use any form of lute from around this time to
perform his songs. See Rob Dowland Var of lute lessons for example and
Ms 704 Bib Con Brussels which contains intabulated settings of songs
by Caccini and his contemporaries.
regards
Martyn
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[VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
On Mon, 12 Dec 2011 10:28:52 + (GMT), Martyn Hodgson wrote
Thanks Lex
Maybe, but plucking to perform basso continuo on the guitar was
not unknown if that's what Agazzi really meant (and I'm not
convinced we can interpret his description as excluding BC using
full chords only - eg strummed). Indeed, there are even some,
allbeit later, sources
(Matteis, Murcia) which give detailed instructions on playing
guitar BC employing only the plucking (lute) style.
Evidence? ;-) You aren't seriously taking those as reliable sources
for Agazzari-time performance practise, aren't you? That's like
using the film aof the Woodstock festival as a source for Johann
Strauss (the IInd) walzer performance ...
Just to be clear: I don't argue for banning guitars from early baroque
continuo section, I jsut think we should be a little bit more careful
in what sources we draw our information from.
Cheers, Ralf Mattes
Corbetta in
his intabulated vocal/instrumental settings is also fairly
restrained: using plucking play with the occasional strummed chord.
Martyn
--- On Mon, 12/12/11, eisen...@planet.nl eisen...@planet.nl wrote:
From: eisen...@planet.nl eisen...@planet.nl
Subject: RE: Return to earlier question: {was Re: [VIHUELA] Re:
Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Vihuelalist
vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 9:55
Hi,
I'm not so sure about the 'etc.'
It seems that Agazzari was thinking in terms of counterpoint, the
way the guitar was used (strumming) does not fit in easily. In the
end, there were more composers who were criticizing the use of the
guitar
(Castaldi), at that time. I suppose that the plucked chitarrina could
be one of the melodic instruments on his list.
Lex
__
Van: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk]
Verzonden: ma 12-12-2011 10:24
Aan: Vihuelalist; eisen...@planet.nl
Onderwerp: Return to earlier question: {was Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari
guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Thanks Lex.
Yes, these sources are fairly well known - I'm just not sure
terminoligy was sufficiently standardised at the time to draw
unequivocal conclusions and the question as to whether Agazzari
had Millioni's four-course guitar, 'chitarrino' in mind or the
instrument required in the Conserto vaga is open.
But to return to the original question: did Agrazzi purposefully omit
the chitarra spagnuola from his list of instruments as suitable
for basso continuo, or is it included in the etcetera...? I
suggested that since he does not list the instrument amongst those
suitable for embellishment then he did think it suitable for
continuo (if rarer than the instruments he did singled out).
However, I'm certainly not advocating even more banging and
thrashing about as fashionable amongst some modern continuo groupings..
regards
Martyn
--
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r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de
[VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]
On Sun, 11 Dec 2011 17:03:13 +0200, wikla wrote Well, Oliver Strunk writes chitarrino. As far as I know, chitarrino, 4 course renaissance guitar, was not at all unknown in Italy in times of Agazzari... Hmm, as if there where a fixed terminology at that time ... Thank's to those silly humanists writers, from the end of the 15. century on writers started to use 'chitarra' for all sorts of stinged instuments (plucked). So we have chitarra for 'lute' (Tincoris), harp (Glarean), (renaissance) guitar etc. Not to forget chitarrone (literally: huge chitarra). It might even be that Sgn. Agazzari wants to make a distinction between the chitarrone and smaller (treble) lutes here. To limit the translation of 'citarrin[a/o]' to renaissance guitar seems bold. But I have never heard about chitarrina, but of course that does not exclude its existence... ;-) Then you missed something - yummy italian pasta!! [1] And not even totally off-topic here since the name probably refers to the production process: pressing some pasta dough through a wired frame (somehow like an oversized egg-cutter) that might remind one of a harp (-chitarra) :-) Cheers, Ralf Mattes [1] http://www.dececco.it/EN/Egg-Pasta/Specialities/chitarrina-abruzzese-all-uovo-399/?Prodotto=159 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Baxa de contrapunto
On Fri, 9 Dec 2011 15:39:08 +0100, David van Ooijen wrote Thanks to all who responded. I'll have enough to chat my way through the concert coming Sunday. Espeically Juan Pablo's story is good, Yes, in the category of: Se non è vero, è ben trovato. ... But, since that saying is supposed to come from rennaisance Giordano Bruno it's fitting after all ;-) How would Baxa de contrapunto translate: Down from the counterpoint ? Or Dutch from the counterpoint? Is that a kind of disease you catch from being exposed to long to flemish polyphony? Cheers, Ralf Mattes as the theme of my concert will be 'Spanish Music in Flemish Sources and Flemish Music in Spanish Sources - Music from Phalése and Narváez' on lute and vihuela. Will be fun! David On 8 December 2011 17:43, Juan Pablo Pira p...@asies.org.gt wrote: I have no source for this, but I remember someone telling me that baxa=baja=Low refers to the Low Countries, so it could be Dance from the Netherlands, as opposed to Alta (if it exists at all), that would be a German dance... maybe an Allemande. JP To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** -- R. Mattes - Hochschule fuer Musik Freiburg r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de
[VIHUELA] Re: Baxa de contrapunto
On Thu, 8 Dec 2011 11:26:22 +0100, David van Ooijen wrote In this title of Narvaez' piece, what does 'baxa' mean? Low as in 'Basse danse'. HTH Ralf Mattes David David van Ooijen [1]www.davidvanooijen.nl -- References 1. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- R. Mattes - Hochschule fuer Musik Freiburg r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de
[VIHUELA] Re: Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc)
On Wed, 11 May 2011 15:43:48 +0100, Monica Hall wrote Well - if any one else wants to see my musical example I put it on my www.earlyguitar.ning.com page with the scores - the first in the list. Comments and corrections to the harmony welcome. Hello, where do these figurs come from - the original print? This looks like Edward Elgar on mind-altering drugs. If this is Marini that man should have taken some introductory counterpoint class :-) Cheers, RalfD To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc)
On Wed, 11 May 2011 17:37:33 +0100, Monica Hall wrote There are no figures in the original - That's what I feared. these are added by me to define the harmony and they are correct. (The programme I use won't put them one on top of the other). The voice part and bass part are as in the original. Correct according to what reference. The fact that you constantly refer to inversions of chords indicates that you think in terms of 19ct. harmony. This is at least problematic in the contoext of (early) 17ct. music (well, it's even problematic for mid-18ct music). Gereralizing: 17ct sonorities can and should be thought of as the resultr of certain linear movements. All disonances are the result of a temporal displacement of voices progressing in consonant movements. So, a dissonance needs to be properly prepared as well as properly resolved. Your 7th in measure 4 just dissapears. And the 5 of the 56 over f in measure 3 is considered a dissonance and needs to resolve as well (all resolutions must progress downwards). The point at issue is - what is the first chord you would play in the penultimate bar over the G in the bass? Given just the top and the bass. I'd boldly assume an error and play a hemiola: half note eb, half note f, half note g. The C and F in the voice part are the dominant 7th and the suspended 4th held over from the previous 6/5 chord - and the D is also held over from the previous chord and becomes part of the next chord the dominant chord. There is no dominant in the style. And the sevens over the first note of a falling 5th in the bass typically appears as a passing note 8-7 You need to play the two examples to understand how they work. I did :-) And I don't understand your edition. What's that (editorial) e-natural doing over an a flat in the continuo? Pretty much out of mode here. Come on, this is just a simple little tune in first mode. I think the first is more likely than the second but you could hold the whole of the D minor chord over the G and resolve each separate note one by one as in the second version. The second one is so far of any compositional conventions of the 17 century (harmonic speed, thesis/arsis placement of harmonic changes etc.) that I won't comment on it. Cheers, RalfD Monica - Original Message - From: R. Mattes r...@mh-freiburg.de To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 4:51 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc) On Wed, 11 May 2011 15:43:48 +0100, Monica Hall wrote Well - if any one else wants to see my musical example I put it on my www.earlyguitar.ning.com page with the scores - the first in the list. Comments and corrections to the harmony welcome. Hello, where do these figurs come from - the original print? This looks like Edward Elgar on mind-altering drugs. If this is Marini that man should have taken some introductory counterpoint class :-) Cheers, RalfD To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- R. Mattes - Hochschule fuer Musik Freiburg r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitar continuo example
On Tue, 10 May 2011 09:35:05 +0100 (BST), Martyn Hodgson wrote Dear Ralf, Prima la musica is a very reputable small publishing firm (one man I think - Brian Clark) producing limited runs of specialist early music editions. This might well be - looking at their website gives that impreession. But ... I'd guess the ARR tag is used, as by other commercial publishers, to try and ensure they are paid a royalty when anyone uses their edition for public performance or commercial recording. This practice has, I think, become even more widespread since the court case a few years ago involving Hyperion records. .. I still fail to see what gives them the right to do so. All rights reserved means what it says: _All rights_, not just you can't legaly photocopy this music. Royalties? A _composer_ (and a performer, in case of recordings) gets royalties, _not_ a publisher (note: in the US a composer might sell/sign over these rights to a publisher, but I doubt Sign. Albrici did this). They simply claim rights they do not hold. Does it matter? Unfortunately yes. Next time I perform this little gem in a public performance I have to prove to some dork from german GEMA that noone holds performance right on the piece. An a quick google will lead him to this edition (unfortunately, in Germany, thank's to the GEMA Vermutung one has to prove that some music is free, not the other way round, as it should be). If 'Prima la musica' is a member of some copyright association then GEMA might sue me (on behalf of Prima la Musica). Which might result in me having to counter-sue Prima la musica for unjustly claiming performance right - probably _not_ what they intended I'm not taking sides - merely giving what may be the reason for the practice. I might sound grumpy but this seems to become a unhealthy habbit recently. Cheers, Ralf Mattes MH --- On Mon, 9/5/11, R. Mattes r...@mh-freiburg.de wrote: From: R. Mattes r...@mh-freiburg.de Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar continuo example To: Rockford Mjos rm...@comcast.net, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 9 May, 2011, 19:53 On Mon, 9 May 2011 12:56:20 -0500, Rockford Mjos wrote Kremberg and others assume a guitar tuned in D so, of course, a transposing part would mean thinking E-tuned guitar shapes on a Dinstrument (for example). And the spinetta is also a transposing instrument? Might well be parts written for instruments at different pitch levels (not unheard of even in Bach's time).When I play continuo on guitar I transpose out of range bass lines(in my head) as needed. Looking at the parts, I think there's plenty of bass already. I also wonder about the Tacet instructions. On some parts I seeSpinetta tacet, but not chitarra tacet. In the shared chitarra/ spinetta part Spinetta tacet appears to be crossed out. I came across the beginning here, though it does not show the Spinetta to be a transposing part, nor that Chitarra is also listed (first!) on that part. (Perhaps preface material or edition notesaddress these oversights.) [1]http://www.primalamusica.com/PDFs/APR09/ALB001.pdf [2]http://www.primalamusica.com/albrici-3030-0.html [chitarra not mentioned here, either] What an obnoxious edition! All rights reserved - yeah, right! They probably bought the performance rights from Signore Albrici himself. Cheers, Ralf Mattes To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.primalamusica.com/PDFs/APR09/ALB001.pdf 2. http://www.primalamusica.com/albrici-3030-0.html 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- R. Mattes - Hochschule fuer Musik Freiburg r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitar continuo example
On Tue, 10 May 2011 14:37:10 +0100 (BST), Martyn Hodgson wrote If you're interested in the bacground and legal arguments, there are summaries of the case, known as Sawkins v Hyperion Records Ltd 2005, on various sites such as www.4-5graysinnsquare.co.uk/news/index.cfm?id=1391 Thanks for the link. One intersting question: did the performers of the hyperion record actually _use_ the edition? Sacry quote: The response of the claimant, which the judge accepted, was that none of the music could have been played or performed by using any of the earlier extant Lalande scores. Poor old french musicians from the baroque - living in a time with such wonderfull music that they could not perform :-/ Cheers, Ralf Mattes To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitar continuo example
On Mon, 9 May 2011 12:56:20 -0500, Rockford Mjos wrote Kremberg and others assume a guitar tuned in D so, of course, a transposing part would mean thinking E-tuned guitar shapes on a D instrument (for example). And the spinetta is also a transposing instrument? Might well be parts written for instruments at different pitch levels (not unheard of even in Bach's time). When I play continuo on guitar I transpose out of range bass lines (in my head) as needed. Looking at the parts, I think there's plenty of bass already. I also wonder about the Tacet instructions. On some parts I see Spinetta tacet, but not chitarra tacet. In the shared chitarra/ spinetta part Spinetta tacet appears to be crossed out. I came across the beginning here, though it does not show the Spinetta to be a transposing part, nor that Chitarra is also listed (first!) on that part. (Perhaps preface material or edition notes address these oversights.) http://www.primalamusica.com/PDFs/APR09/ALB001.pdf http://www.primalamusica.com/albrici-3030-0.html [chitarra not mentioned here, either] What an obnoxious edition! All rights reserved - yeah, right! They probably bought the performance rights from Signore Albrici himself. Cheers, Ralf Mattes To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: list - protocol
On Mon, 18 Apr 2011 17:42:10 +0100, Monica Hall forwarded From: [1]Martyn Hodgson As said, the reply at the top is usual (and historic!) practice. But it's also always a good idea to cut and paste in the relevant section one is queying/amplifying if the original is long This is simply wrong. Sorry, but the historic way to quote in Usenet (way before mailing list were common) was either bottom-post or interleaved. I still have my old copy of my university's version of 'Zen and the art of Internet' which teaches the art of interleaved quoting (and a lot of other netiquette ... what happened to the net, sigh!). Top-posting was brought to us by AOL (and later Microsoft) : their meassage clients had no means of qutoing the original and put the cursor above the original message text when replying. Since most of these new AOL users had no clue about haow to behave in an online community Top-posting quickly became associated with rude behavior ... Here's an old signature joke from back then: A: Because it reverses the natural order of conversations and makes it confusing as to who posted what. Q: Why is that so annoying? A: Top posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing about mailing lists and Usenet? Monica Hall again: All I can say is that I agree with this. The problem arises when several people reply to a message consecutively, some at the top and some at the bottom. The important thing is to keep the discussion in a logical sequence which everyone can follow. Yes, I totally agree here, top-posting in reply to an interleaved message is plain and simply rude. And, btw. one is supposed to _trim_ the quoted sections, blindly replying with the full message of the original post is rude as well. Why? Because it really blows up the size of my message box. And it's anoying that, when searching for a post, a lot of not so relevant mails show up, only because old quotes still linger at the deep bottom of these messages. Cheers, Ralf Mattes -- R. Mattes - Hochschule fuer Musik Freiburg r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Granata
On Fri, 15 Apr 2011 10:12:08 +0100 (BST), Martyn Hodgson wrote Dear Michael, With due respect to all concerned in your project, may I say that it's a mistake not to include the figures in the edition. If I understand Michael's post, he isn't removing the figures, he just doesn't include a _realisation_ of the continuo - laudable IMHO. Cheers, Ralf Mattes To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Granata
- From: Stuart Walsh [1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: [2]michael.f...@notesinc.com [3]michael.f...@notesinc.com Cc: [4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 11:43 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Granata On 14/04/2011 22:28, [5]michael.f...@notesinc.com wrote: Dear List, I have recently finished editing all the known chamber music for Baroque guitar and strings, including all these Capricci by Granata. I noted the light figured bass markings here and in Granata's Sonata (1659) for the same instrumentation (in which the violin is *not* a mere doubling). However, I decided not to include any continuo realizations, because the guitar already provides a nice sketch of the harmonies. (This decision was reached partly in conference with Monica.) That said, please let me point out three Simphonies by Henry Grenerin for two violins, guitar, and basse with figures, where the figures are specified to be for a theorbo. We should probably consider the theorbo/chitarrone to be a good continuo instrument for Granata's music as well. Mike Mike I've been looking through more of Granata's Novi Capricci (1674). For a start I feel a little unsettled by some of the tablature. Why are g#s (you'd think, first string fourth fret) sometimes put on the second course at the ninth fret? There are other awkward moments too where you might expect a guitarist to smooth things out... and just be a it more guitaristic.. And the guitar doesn't always merely double the top string part. Most strikingly, there are places where the guitar harmony simply doesn't match the bass part. For example, the D minor Giga (p.18). In bars 6,7 and 10 the guitar is playing a C chord in inversion and the bass line seems to indicate F major. And in the B minor Alemanda, there is a point where the guitar plays an alfebeto B minor and the bass line (on a strong beat, not a passing note) has the note G. As far as I can see, you fairly often have to make small adjustments to get the parts to fit. And there would be far fewer issues if the guitar was fully re-entrant. If the guitarist read the music, not the notation, there would be no issues! It does look rather like like the guitar part is independent. Stuart I can't help thinking there is something odd going on. Well - with the baroque guitar we can be pretty sure that something odd is going on.But I am inclined to agree with you that the guitar parts may have originally been independent of the string parts. If indeed they are the pieces which Corbetta says he pirated, or if they are actually by Corbetta rather than Granata, it could be that the versions printed in 1674 are re-arrangements of rather earlier pieces. And needless to say I think you are right about them being intended for the re-entrant tuning. I think this is the most suitable for Granata's late books at least. But I am not sure about the G#s - haven't had time to go through and look at them. Monica [1][6]mich...@lgv-pub.com -- References 1. mailto:[7]michael.f...@notesinc.com To get on or off this list see list information at [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com 2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=michael.f...@notesinc.com 3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=michael.f...@notesinc.com 4. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=michael.f...@notesinc.com 6. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mich...@lgv-pub.com 7. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=michael.f...@notesinc.com 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Cheers, RalfD -- R. Mattes - Hochschule fuer Musik Freiburg r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de
[VIHUELA] Re: Polyphony/Counterpoint
On Thu, 10 Feb 2011 20:31:03 -, Monica Hall wrote Just as a matter of interest I looked these terms up in a Dutch Dictionary. The only difference seems to be that in the Netherlands the Age of Polyphony lasts longer. ??? Where do you read this? In the first quote (from South-West Holland, formerly known as Germany)? That's plain and simple wrong. A rough translation: Polyphonie (griech. [UTF-8?]ÏÎ¿Î»Ï poly [UTF-8?]âmehrâ und [UTF-8?]Ïονη phone [UTF-8?]âStimmeâ) bezeichnet verschiedene Arten der Mehrstimmigkeit in der Musik. Das Wort polyphonia erscheint in dieser Bedeutung erstmals um 1300, wird bis zum 18. Jahrhundert jedoch selten verwendet. Polyphony (...) names different kinds of Polyphony in music. The word first shows up arround 1300, but is seldom used up to the 18. century Nota bene my problem translating Mehrstimmigkeit - a literal translation of the greek word, something english seems to lack. There is no mention of an Age of Polyphony at all. I think you're arguing yourself into a corner here - you claim that polyphony and counterpoint describe the same phenomen, but distinguish temporal. As far as I know these terms are more in a hyper/hyponym relation (and at least WordNet seems to agree with me: * http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?o2=o0=1o7=o5=o1=1o6=o4=o3=s=counterpointi=2h=10#c counterpoint - direct hypernym - polyphony * http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?o2=o0=1o7=o5=o1=1o6=o4=o3=s=polyphonyi=1h=1001000#c polyphpny - direct hyponym- counterpoint Cheers, Ralf Mattes -- R. Mattes -- Systemeinheitsstreichler Hochschule fuer Musik Freiburg r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Polyphony and counterpoint
On Wed, 9 Feb 2011 19:33:21 -, Stewart McCoy wrote Dear Lex, It is true that some people may use the words polyphony and counterpoint interchangeably, but if there has to be a distinction between the two words, one should consider their etymology. Why? How can the etymology of a term help to distinguish two words? Words constantly change their meaning. Or would you accept it if your local bar tender served you a bowl of fine pouder the next time you ask for something 'alcoholic'? Polyphony means many sounds or many voices, and is generally used for music where singers (or instruments playing a single line) have their own independent part. It is usually used in connection with early music from before 1600 (pre-baroque) - the Age of Polyphony. But that's only one use of this term - and it manifests an approach to music history (epochs and 'greatest composer of ...') that most of us try to leave behind. Even in the small domain of musicology this term has several uses, i.e. * Number of voices: monophonic song repertoir vs. polyphonic * Individuality of voices: homphonic vs. polyphonic * Capability of instruments: polyphonic instruments (would you call a lute a 'contrapunctual instrument'?) Counterpoint means points going against each other. No, this is a way too literal translation. In the context of music theory 'contrapunctus' needs to be translated as 'note against note' - and 'punctus contra punctum' and 'nota contra notam' are both used in early sources. A point is a short, distinctive piece of melody, which passes from one voice to another, like the opening theme of a fugue. Sorry, but where did you get this from? I've read and studied quite some counterpoint treaties (from the 14th centry to Fux) but I never encountered such a definition. The key word here is imitation. If you have two or more voices taking turns to share the same melodic material, you have counterpoint. According to this (your?) definition all 'species counterpoint' treaties wouldn't teach counterpoint. Polyphony could involve counterpoint, but it doesn't have to. Yes, but wouldn't that mean that Lex used the appropriate term? ;-) Cheers, Ralf Mattes Best wishes, Stewart. -- R. Mattes -- Systemeinheitsstreichler Hochschule fuer Musik Freiburg r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Polyphony and counterpoint
On Wed, 9 Feb 2011 17:06:37 -0500, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote Dear Roman, Stewart, Ralf, and List, Dear Jocelyn, After slaving away at teaching music history students and working in tandem with my theory/composition colleagues for around a decade, I'd like to say that all the texts and articles I've used in English (I'm currently using the Burkholder/Grout/Palisca text published by Norton) convey: Polyphony is the more general term referring to musical texture with more than one independent musical line occurring simultaneously. Thank you - I hope we can all settle with this definition. But, trying to bring back this discussion to it's starting point, doesn't this mean that Lex' use of the term (the polyphonic nature of Bartolotti's music) wasn't nearly as unapropriate as Monica claimed? But maybe as a non-native speaker I miss some of the subtleties of English as she is spoke ... snip Etymology is indeed very important; even though meanings evolve, an understanding of these terms' origins is indispensible when we're discussing historical music. I strongly disagree here. Etymology might be interesting in itself and important in the study of language, but is of no use in a terminological discurse. In what way is the fact that the top voice of a polyphonic piece once was considered a texted version of an untexted clausula (and hence named 'motetus' - with words) relevant to the study of, say, Motets by Marc-Antoine Charpentier? Cheers, Ralf Mattes To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
