Hi David. Thanks for that up close and personal review of Apple's history with access for blind users. I too have lived through most of that same history but from the point of view of a blind mainframe programmer / analyst who needed accessible products to do my job. My first experience with accessibility was a TI994a with a synthesizer which I programmed myself and used to write my own editor in school. TI was surprised because they thought that synthesizer was for programming games<smile>. It is clear, from what you say that Apple was interested in accessibility. However, I began and retired from my career as a blind programmer / analyst with absolutely no usable tools from Apple. Therefore it is also clear that Apple wasn't interested enough to make it happen. Hard to believe now that Apple reigns supreme but for quite a few of those years Apple was mainly interested in staying alive and did not have a lot of resources to invest in accessibility. Part of what Apple did to stay alive was to emphasize strongly the education market. Your account makes it look very much as though Apple decided to make accessibility happen when that market was threatened by a cutoff of a lot of the federal money which funded the purchase of their computers in the education market. About that time, thanks in part to the return of Steve Jobs, Apple began innovating and becoming the major player in the mobility market. They did it well and are still showing the rest of the world that accessibility can be built right into the OS at a cost which doesn't break the bank. There are lots of things like business philosophy and approach to working with developers which influence how accessible things were and shall be. I'm grateful that Microsoft, IBM, and some third party companies made it possible for me to make a good living and program computers for 25 years. I am sorry Apple wasn't in there effectively innovating way back then. Even now, the issue of refunds would not be such a hot one if most of the apps in Apple's marketplace worked well with VO. That marketplace is controlled by Apple and they have chosen to encourage developer participation with accessibility as a desirable option but not a requirement. Since they control the marketplace, they do have some responsibility for the products they sell. I think they have made a reasonable and decent choice to quietly give refunds but not complicate their lives by publicizing it. If they made it public and official they would face the choice of being open to a lot of fraudulent requests or take on the administrative cost of requiring us to prove our eligibility for such refunds. In none of this do I see any moral issue either good or bad. It does, I am sure, frustrate those who like things consistent and clear cut. I personally like fuzzy logic because it allows for people to be treated as people rather than rules to be kept or broken. It does complicate the lives of customer service employees quite a bit though. However you look at it we are customers not charity cases. The same is true of accessibility requirements fostered by the ADA which threatened funding of purchases from Apple at the turn of the century. Those purchases were being made with taxes collected from taxpayers who, in many cases such as mine, meant a disabled person or one with a disabled family member. I am sincerely grateful to Apple for the breakthroughs and innovations on behalf of their disabled customers and plan to show that with my customer dollars. I have no illusions about the situation though. For instance, the accessibility of IBook and Kindle on phones and tablets is now being used by a consortium of EReader developers led by Amazon to justify requesting an accessibility waiver from ADA for their devices.
Once again, thank you for that fascinating review of the background! There were things in there which are new to me. Regards, Wayne -----Original Message----- From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of David Chittenden Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 1:14 AM To: viphone@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Apple App Store & Refunds for inaccessible Apps This is incorrect. Initial accessibility for the Apple II computer, which occurred in 1983, was developed by Apple, not a 3rd party vendor. In addition, ZoomText style screen enlargement was provided on the original Mac back in 1986. I know because I worked with both products. The initial screen reader for the Apple II was not very good. The original screen enlargement for the Mac was better than TSI Vista Screen enlargement for DOS computers. The first full-fledge screen reader for Apple Mac was developed by Berkeley Systems in the mid 90's. When Berkeley Systems went out of business because they did not have enough customer base to meet their expenses around the turn of the century, the company which bought out their source code let OutSpoken for Mac die and used some of the OutSpoken for Windows code in their own screen reader. I currently do not remember which company this was. After Berkeley Systems folded, Apple approached screen reader developers to see if any of them would develop a new screen reader for the Mac. In fact, Apple worked closely with Berkeley Systems on OutSpoken for Mac. I know this because a cousin was an independent consultant for Apple who was assigned to work with Berkeley Systems on trouble-shooting difficulties for several months in the mid 90's. During this time, Apple paid his consulting fees. After screen reader developers, including Freedom Scientific, turned Apple down, Apple took screen reader development in-house in 2003 and released the initial iteration of VoiceOver with OSX Tiger in 2005. This means, Apple's initial screen reader development from concept design to roll-out took around two years. It must be noted that Apple was notified by US Federal Purchasing (I do not remember which specific department, but suspect it may have been Dept of Education), that federal funds would no longer be able to be spent on Apple computers if Apple did not have minimum screen reader access. To my best understanding, this notification was made in 2001 or 2002. It was during the time after OutSpoken for Mac was discontinued, and may have been the impetus encouraging Apple to approach Windows screen reader developers. However, given that Apple has always had a commitment to disability access, as proven by their initial basic screen reader in the Apple II and their screen enlargement in the early Mac, and by the fact that they paid my cousin's developer consultation fees in the mid 90's to do work with Berkeley Systems, I am not convinced that the US Federal Purchasing being threatened to be ended was what caused Apple to jump so fully onto the accessibility bandwagon. Besides, only basic access is required by the Federal Government. Also, it was a known fact, and fairly well researched and proven, that blind people could not successfully, independently, and completely effectively, utilise a purely touchscreen device. In fact, a Google-based researcher was attempting to get Apple to work with him on developing a tactile overlay to help blind people use the original iPhone, and was not happy with Apple because they refused to work with him. Apple revolutionised everyone's understanding of what was possible with touchscreen access when they released iPhone 3GS with full VO integration in 2009. Academic researchers were caught completely by surprise. Peer-reviewed, high-end, academic research around factors of successful touchscreen access for the blind do not appear in the research journals (touch input with audio output) until late 2010. This indicates such research was not designed or started until after the iPhone 3GS. Therefore, the facts do not support the assertion that Apple only became focused on accessibility after forced to do so by the federal purchasing under accessibility legislation. David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA Email: dchitten...@gmail.com Mobile: +64 21 2288 288 Sent from my iPhone On 13/09/2013, at 8:27, Christopher Chaltain <chalt...@gmail.com> wrote: > The accessible solutions for the Apple 2E and the Lisa were not Apple products. they were third party products. that's like giving Microsoft and Bill Gates credit for JAWS. > > Apple needs to be praised for their commitment to accessibility, but let's not rewrite history in the process. If anything, Apple's commitment to accessibility is even more impressive given that it had to be incorporated into existing product lines. It goes in the face of the claim that accessibility is too expensive to retrofit and gives us hope for things like Windows Phone and other platforms, operating systems and applications that aren't currently accessible. > > On 09/12/2013 01:12 PM, Steve wrote: >> I can only speculate on the rationale. If you read the book >> Exploding the Phone, you will see that Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak >> had several blind acquaintances back in the early 70's. >> >> Remember, that in the earlier days of computing, there were >> accessible solutions for the Apple 2e and the Lisa. >> >> Steve >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wayne gmail " >> <ewaynebrum...@gmail.com> >> To: <viphone@googlegroups.com> >> Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 10:20 AM >> Subject: RE: Apple App Store & Refunds for inaccessible Apps >> >> >> While I applaud Apple for making a giant leap forward in >> accessibility, I won't pretend that I can guess all the reasons why. >> There is no doubt that they are a huge game changer and that is in >> keeping with their whole corporate philosophy. It may be that >> compassion, concern for public image, and desire to maximize market >> share are the principle drivers. It may also be that the updated ADA >> and increasing legal pressure played a role as well. >> That ADA is being taken seriously has been demonstrated by the fact >> that Amazon and a consortium of producers of EReader hardware have >> requested a waiver of the ADA accessibility requirements for future product releases. >> Part of their reasoning is that this need is being met by the IBook >> and Kindle apps used on phones and tablets. >> At best, Apple is being unclear and inconsistent about refunds but >> I believe that has more to do with it's low priority in the overall >> development of corporate policy than any deliberate intent. >> I've never asked for a refund and given the price of most apps I >> probably never will. If I do, and use the "report a problem" >> suggested by the accessibility team I think I'll probably get it. If >> I don't, life is too short to spend a lot of time and energy worrying about it. >> I definitely do not think pushing for accessibility is whining or >> asking for charity. ADA is a flawed compromise between the disabled >> community and the commercial marketplace but I saw firsthand that it >> had a tremendous impact on job prospects for the disabled. Most >> restaurant owners and hotel managers will tell you that the long term >> benefits in increased custom have made the short term investments >> worthwhile. Despite the unreasonable expectation stories which >> appeared from time to time after passage of ADA the effect has been >> that the disabled portion of our society are less disabled and more >> visible. That is a good thing. I've always suspected a lot of the >> business folks who objected to ADA were mainly objecting to the government telling them what to do about anything. >> >> As for Apple refunds, why not just use the tools Apple provides for >> requesting one, be glad if you get it, and be loud if you don't get >> it and it is that important to you. It is what it is and life moves >> merrily along. >> Lisa, I pretty much agree with your points about our needing to >> accept the responsibility for learning to use accessibility tools. >> However, there is a difference between accessibility and usability. >> Apple has generally done a great job of making VO accessible and >> useable because when they decided to do it, they decided to do it >> right. I've seen other software developed in the Windows environment >> where accessibility has been implemented in a manner best described >> as surly. "I've gotta do it but I don't have to let you like it!" >> As customers, we can and should advocate for useable accessibility in >> apps we buy as opposed to one recently discussed on the list where >> people had to count buttons or label them themselves. We can count >> and label but labels on objects ain't rocket science and indicates >> lazy programming not artistic freedom. The whole point of computers >> is to let one programmer do something once so thousands of customers >> don't have to do it thousands of times. >> Refund requests may be one way of telling developers they should take >> that extra little time in their product development. >> >> Regards, >> Wayne >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On >> Behalf Of Lisa belville >> Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 7:31 AM >> To: viphone@googlegroups.com >> Subject: Re: Apple App Store & Refunds for inaccessible Apps >> >> David I understand where you're coming from. I've taught basic >> Windows and screen reading skills on and off for years and people >> often want to call something inaccessible when it's really a lack of >> knowledge of their screen reader or Windows rather than a genuine >> case of inaccessibility. Of course there are cases of sighted people >> assuming an OS or app doesn't do something simply because they do not >> have the skills or the knowledge to research or experiment. >> >> But this is not the case in a situation where someone purchases an >> inaccessible app. A sighted person purchasing an app will at least >> have the opportunity to put the software through it's paces. True, a >> summary of features and screenshots are not sufficient means of >> judging the usefulness of a program, but in a case where a person, >> presumably a sighted person, regrets dropping the cash on an app >> their aggravation is most likely stemming from the software's >> capabilities being over inflated by the developer. Whereas a blind >> person downloading the same app where no VO access is genuinely not >> included doesn't even have the chance to determine whether or not >> the app will meet his or her needs in the first place. >> >> IMO there is a huge difference between whining about something not >> suiting someone's needs due to it's not being advertised accurately >> and not being able to use the app enough to even ascertain whether or >> not it does as advertised. >> >> If we choose to spend money on an app and can't even access the most >> basic portions of that app then it isn't accessible to us and the app >> is useless, not due to it's not containing the features we need but >> due to our inability to assess it's usefulness. >> >> Perhaps this is a subtle difference to some, but it is a huge issue >> for me, and I don't think it's whining in those cases to ask for a >> refund. This doesn't make us whiners or charity cases, it makes us >> savvy consumers aware of our rights. >> >> In the U.S., at least, most of the access issues have had to be >> settled by litigation because companies refused to work with us or >> even acknowledge their product was inaccessible. Heck I still have >> people amazed that blind people can use a computer, let alone a smart >> phone, so it's no wonder that the majority of developers aren't aware of our needs. >> >> Lisa >> >> >> >> >> There is a fine line between genius and insanity and that difference >> is a paycheck! >> Lisa Belville >> missktlab1...@frontier.com >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "David Chittenden" <dchitten...@gmail.com> >> To: <viphone@googlegroups.com> >> Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 6:05 AM >> Subject: Re: Apple App Store & Refunds for inaccessible Apps >> >> >> Here is my problem with all this stuff around accessibility of apps. >> Apple clearly states in their documentation for those who are not >> blind, that all sales are final. People on this list argue that >> sighted persons can look at the, up to five, screen shots to ascertain if the app will work for them. >> Get real, folks, five pictures does not tell a person how well an app >> works. >> >> Five pictures only tells a person if they will find the lay-out of >> five appearances of app screens to be acceptable. I have read many >> reviews of apps where the reviewer comments that the app is a waste >> of money and the reviewer wishes he/she did not waste the money on >> the app. And, this is the case no matter how expensive the app is. >> >> So, basically, what I interpret people to be saying is, we are >> special. We require charity. We do not wish to be treated like everybody else. >> >> For example, and the reason I am so specific about this, and the >> reason I have never, and will never, unless Apple changes its general >> policy, ask for >> >> an app refund is, a couple months after DigitEyes was placed for sale >> on the >> >> App Store, a person on this list at that time could not figure out >> how to get DigitEyes to work for himself/herself, so the person told >> Apple that DigitEyes was not accessible and received a refund. >> DigitEyes was specifically developed to be accessible. It just was >> not useable for that person for whatever reason. Therefore, the >> person flagrantly and completely abused Apple's charity refund policy for us poor, helpless, blind folk. >> >> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA >> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com >> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288 >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On 12/09/2013, at 22:10, Joanne Chua <shuang.an...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> If blind and vips people insist that if an app is not accessible >>> with voiceover, we have the rights to refun/return the apps deal to >>> inaccessibility within the apps. Now, i have a question and a >>> thought, if a developer specificly develop apps for voiceover and >>> does not have other way of accessing the apps but voiceover, can an >>> ordinary non-voiceover user refun the app with the condition that is >>> being too accessible for the >> >>> minority, but inaccessible for the other people? >>> Of course, this is just a point of arguement, it does not involve >>> any of the app development policy or anything or such. Just looking >>> at things in different angle.. >>> >>> >>> Joanne Chua >>> The flip side of Inclusion is Exclusion. >>> Leaders For Tomorrow 2013 Candidate >>> Send from my iPad >>> >>> On 12/09/2013, at 19:13, Joseph FreeTech <joseph.freet...@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> So this 90-day policy has "always" been the case, right? Nothing >>>> has been changed nor lawsuits nor petitions been used to force >>>> compliance by Apple, right? >>>> >>>> As a general statement conveying my own personal opinion, this >>>> incident is more proof for the value of asking questions and >>>> educating oneself rather than starting long, expensive legal wars. >>>> <Smile>. >>>> >>>> I would now ask for a link to a "terms of agreement" webpage on the >>>> matter of accessibility, which we can all point to when the issue >>>> of refunds for inaccessible apps pops up. This will serve to >>>> educate ourselves and to educate the next Apple customer service >>>> employee who doesn't clearly understand the apple refund policy. We >>>> would be in a much better place to present a good case if we can >>>> provide customer service with the link specifying our rights as >>>> Apple customers. >>>> >>>> Glad all came to a friendly close... for now. <Smile>. >>>> >>>> Joseph >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Neil Barnfather - TalkNav" >>>> <for...@talknav.com> >>>> To: <viphone@googlegroups.com> >>>> Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 1:58 AM >>>> Subject: Re: Apple App Store & Refunds for inaccessible Apps >>>> >>>> >>>> Patrick, >>>> >>>> I, like David, have now heard from Apple's Accessibility team that >>>> refunds for none accessible apps will be granted within a 90 day >>>> window, and that this is Apple's policy on this matter. They had no >>>> explanation or apology >> >>>> as >>>> to why it had been ignored or not followed by what they termed as >>>> five separate members of the iTunes Team being involved, but, never >>>> the less I've now got my refund and have an e-mail from >>>> Accessibility with the policy clearly spelled out. >>>> >>>> As such, I'm a happy bunny again and hopefully Apple's >>>> Accessibility team might take me up on my suggestion that they >>>> round robin e-mail all iTunes support staff informing them of the >>>> policy again! >>>> >>>> Thanks to all who've participated in this conversation. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Neil Barnfather >>>> >>>> Talks List Administrator >>>> Twitter @neilbarnfather >>>> >>>> TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, as well as an >>>> Apple iOS, Macintosh and Android accessibility specialist. For all >>>> your accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit >>>> www.talknav.com >>>> >>>> URL: - www.talknav.com >>>> e-mail: - serv...@talknav.com >>>> Phone: - +44 844 999 4199 >>>> >>>> On 12 Sep 2013, at 04:40, Patrick Neazer >>>> <vantagepoint1...@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hello Neil and all: >>>>> >>>>> Thank you so much for your presentation of your position. It is >>>>> clear and well thought out. >>>>> >>>>> As an iPhone user attempting to find my way through this maze I >>>>> must weigh what you have so skillfully articulated alongside what >>>>> seemingly seems to be Apple's position … Apple states: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hello, >>>>> >>>>> Thank you for your email. The iTunes Store policy regarding app >>>>> refunds for inaccessibile apps has not changed. The Store will >>>>> provide refunds as long as they fall within the 90 day refund >>>>> window (as is standard with any iTunes Store refund.) Please >>>>> ensure that any refund you request is made in a timely manner as >>>>> we cannot grant exceptions to the 90 day policy. >>>>> >>>>> Apple Accessibility. >>>>> >>>>> So, my dilemma persists. Apple seems to have a policy as stated by >>>>> the people to whom we are asked to write. and yet, seemingly, >>>>> there is a disconnect. Is there a problem with the 90 day window? >>>>> Is the answer possibly what was suggested earlier that the >>>>> standard method by which to receive these refunds is online and >>>>> not over the phone? is that what is potentially causing the log >>>>> jam? >>>>> >>>>> As I have stated earlier, and will say again, I have no pre >>>>> rehearsed answer to any of these questions. however, I think if >>>>> these questions are taken seriously two things will be the natural >>>>> result: >>>>> >>>>> 1. a transparent answer will be arrived at without needing to >>>>> appeal to personalities. Principle should govern the discussion >>>>> and that means establishing for anyone who is faced with such an >>>>> occurrence of needing a refund what the actual rules are and how >>>>> they impact everyone proportionately. >>>>> >>>>> 2. And understanding of what is and what is not happening so >>>>> constructive solutions to existing reality can be offered. >>>>> >>>>> I did not mention him by name earlier though I will now … Tyler >>>>> made a suggestion which I believed is based in principle from the >>>>> perspective of the developers … making Apple's documentation >>>>> easier to use. That is a universal strategy which has been >>>>> embraced by many communities and can be measured. >>>>> >>>>> I know that the response I received from accessibility was not >>>>> only sent to my inbox. does anyone have any experience to share >>>>> here that might shed more light upon the topic? the security of >>>>> knowing that the world's leading accessibility company is both >>>>> responsive and collaborative is always a fruitful topic for >>>>> conversation and a fantastic catalyst for action. >>>>> >>>>> The purchasing of apps is a topic close to all of us. Thank you >>>>> from here to all whom have participated and offered their best >>>>> efforts. >>>>> >>>>> Take good care and I wish you enough. >>>>> On Sep 11, 2013, at 6:05 PM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav >>>>> <for...@talknav.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Patrick, >>>>>> >>>>>> As it was I whom started the thread I shall answer as follows… >>>>>> >>>>>> Apple's official online policy for App Store purchases is that >>>>>> once completed they are none refundable and all purchases are final. >>>>>> >>>>>> There are no exemptions listed and its pretty much a catch all, >>>>>> once you've pressed buy, entered your password and pressed OK, >>>>>> you're done, that's it, no money back and importantly especially >>>>>> for Voice Over users, no guarantee… >>>>>> >>>>>> What I am lobbying for, and the call to arms if you will, is for >>>>>> us together as a community to tell Apple that this policy puts >>>>>> our community uniquely at a disadvantage. >>>>>> >>>>>> We cannot look at the screen shots, almost never is there a >>>>>> review by a Voice Over user pointing out whether or not the app >>>>>> is accessible or not, where there is, how would you find that >>>>>> single review amongst many others… Often App developers are >>>>>> unaware of our needs, the tools Apple provide to resolve those >>>>>> and link up with their accessibility API's which provide features >>>>>> like Voice Over to operate. >>>>>> >>>>>> Apple themselves make no effort to point these features out to >>>>>> developers, they do not screen apps submitted to them for >>>>>> compliance, they offer no incentive to, or not to, comply with >>>>>> their standards, and finally, they offer us the user no way of >>>>>> simply flagging an app in an easy to follow and find manner that >>>>>> an app has been certified by our community as functional. >>>>>> >>>>>> Given all of the above, I believe it right and proper that Apple >>>>>> accept that occasionally we will purchase an app and it will not >>>>>> function as intended by the developer for us, and as such, we >>>>>> aught to be entitled to our money back. >>>>>> >>>>>> That's it, in a nut shell, no bells, no whistles, no credibility >>>>>> check, plain simple language that I hope covers my specific >>>>>> grievance in one. >>>>>> >>>>>> Whilst some have pointed out is all this necessary for the odd >>>>>> dollar here and there, I suppose it comes down to how many apps >>>>>> you buy and at what cost they are. >>>>>> >>>>>> I personally buy 5 or so a week, granted most of these are low >>>>>> cost, but the app that specifically caused me to write to them >>>>>> was £35 about US$50. >>>>>> and I consider this worthy of my money back. >>>>>> >>>>>> This aside, no-one should be made to pay money for something they >>>>>> cannot use, no matter the amount. >>>>>> >>>>>> Hope that this clears things up >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> Neil Barnfather >>>>>> >>>>>> Talks List Administrator >>>>>> Twitter @neilbarnfather >>>>>> >>>>>> TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, as well as >>>>>> an Apple iOS, Macintosh and Android accessibility specialist. For >>>>>> all your accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit >>>>>> www.talknav.com >>>>>> >>>>>> URL: - www.talknav.com >>>>>> e-mail: - serv...@talknav.com >>>>>> Phone: - +44 844 999 4199 >>>>>> >>>>>> On 11 Sep 2013, at 20:11, Patrick Neazer >>>>>> <vantagepoint1...@gmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello Neil, Joseph, and all: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have been following this thread since its inception and I must >>>>>>> confess I am a bit confused by the arc of the conversation. It >>>>>>> began with a judgement pertaining to a policy which may or may >>>>>>> not exist addressing the refund of money for app purchases. >>>>>>> then, a turn was taken to patronizing activity or not. then >>>>>>> there was an appeal to the upstanding credentials of an >>>>>>> individual and then … well … I lost the trail. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am not attempting to take sides or a stand. I am truly >>>>>>> attempting to understand what is actually occurring and what the >>>>>>> call to action is. >>>>>>> so, in an attempt to clarify my obvious unclear view here is my >>>>>>> question … does Apple have a stated policy or procedure which is >>>>>>> clearly stated and viewable by the public governing refunds for >>>>>>> app purchases and does there policy outline any unique >>>>>>> exemptions based on pick the criteria of choice? If that >>>>>>> information could be presented as quickly as links to write to >>>>>>> apple requesting policy changes and adaptations to business >>>>>>> practices that would go a long way I believe to clearing up my >>>>>>> apparent confusion and sharpening the discussion in the minds of >>>>>>> other members of the community who may be experiencing the same >>>>>>> confusion I am experiencing. Of course, I may be the only one >>>>>>> confused and if so, anyone reading this whom has been following >>>>>>> the thread is free to disregard anything written above. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thank you to anyone who reads this and responds in a >>>>>>> constructive manner and high fives to all those who take up the >>>>>>> mantle of improving the tools which make the lives of persons >>>>>>> with disabilities easier to navigate. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Take good care and I wish you enough. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Patrick >>>>>>> On Sep 11, 2013, at 1:46 PM, Joseph FreeTech >>>>>>> <joseph.freet...@gmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Well, the suggestion I posted has nothing to do with you personally. >>>>>>>> <Smile>. it's a general, unbiased suggestion, and had anyone >>>>>>>> else made it, I would have suggested the same thing. It was >>>>>>>> another lister who turned this into a bit of an ad hominem >>>>>>>> discussion. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Joseph >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Neil Barnfather - TalkNav" >>>>>>>> <for...@talknav.com> >>>>>>>> To: <viphone@googlegroups.com> >>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 11:22 AM >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Apple App Store & Refunds for inaccessible Apps >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Joseph, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As Sieghard has said, I'm not one for such things, and have >>>>>>>> been a positive advocate of our community online and off line >>>>>>>> for many, many years now… I would recommend that you check out >>>>>>>> my web-site; neilbarnfather.com for some information and this >>>>>>>> might explain a little more about myself and my work. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Neil Barnfather >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Talks List Administrator >>>>>>>> Twitter @neilbarnfather >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, as well >>>>>>>> as an Apple iOS, Macintosh and Android accessibility >>>>>>>> specialist. For all your accessible phone, PDA and GPS related >>>>>>>> enquiries visit www.talknav.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> URL: - www.talknav.com >>>>>>>> e-mail: - serv...@talknav.com >>>>>>>> Phone: - +44 844 999 4199 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 11 Sep 2013, at 17:13, Joseph FreeTech >>>>>>>> <joseph.freet...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Very smart suggestion. Let's say we all jump on this bandwagon >>>>>>>>> (once again), and in the end we discover that whoever the >>>>>>>>> original person this happened to was very nasty and demanding >>>>>>>>> to the Apple customer service employees; hence the poor >>>>>>>>> service. We're all going to be very embarrassed and not likely >>>>>>>>> to take this issue up again in the future. We first need proof >>>>>>>>> of a pattern of poor service and not just some single person's >>>>>>>>> complaint. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Joseph >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lisa belville" >>>>>>>>> <missktlab1...@frontier.com> >>>>>>>>> To: <viphone@googlegroups.com> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 7:59 AM >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Apple App Store & Refunds for inaccessible Apps >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi. Is there any way you could share a letter showing how the >>>>>>>>> Apple people were patronizing/unhelpful in this regard? I >>>>>>>>> understand the frustration of not getting a refund for >>>>>>>>> something inaccessible and how a clueless rep makes this all >>>>>>>>> the more annoying, but IMO there's a difference between >>>>>>>>> politely/patiently conveying a policy and being patronizing. >>>>>>>>> Obviously, >>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>> can take out any names in this letter, but it would be good to >>>>>>>>> see an example of this attitude. Could it possibly be this >>>>>>>>> particular rep's issue and not necessarily one of Apple >>>>>>>>> itself? I'm referring to the patronizing/unsympathetic >>>>>>>>> attitude and not the policy itself. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Lisa >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> There is a fine line between genius and insanity and that >>>>>>>>> difference is a paycheck! >>>>>>>>> Lisa Belville >>>>>>>>> missktlab1...@frontier.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Neil Barnfather - TalkNav" >>>>>>>>> <for...@talknav.com> >>>>>>>>> To: <macvisionar...@googlegroups.com>; >>>>>>>>> <viphone@googlegroups.com>; "The Accessible Phones Discussion >>>>>>>>> List" <blindpho...@mosenexplosion.com> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 8:58 AM >>>>>>>>> Subject: Apple App Store & Refunds for inaccessible Apps >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The below should prove a concern to all Apple accessibility >>>>>>>>> feature users, and I would urge as many of you who can do so, >>>>>>>>> to please write to Apple yourselves to express your concern >>>>>>>>> along the same lines where possible… >>>>>>>>> (accessibil...@apple.com). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> For years now Apple has led the way in accessibility standards >>>>>>>>> and application of methods in interacting with all of its >>>>>>>>> product range. >>>>>>>>> Internationally within many disability arenas Apple is >>>>>>>>> celebrated as the defacto standard and is widely acknowledged >>>>>>>>> as users preferred platform for persons with accessibility >>>>>>>>> issues. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Whether or not the App Store had an unofficial policy towards >>>>>>>>> customers with accessibility needs or not, is unknown to me. >>>>>>>>> What I am aware of is that where I've bought Apps which turn >>>>>>>>> out not to be accessible, Apple App Store has always been >>>>>>>>> prompt to refund the purchase immediately without question. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Since Apple do not enforce accessibility standards, nor in >>>>>>>>> anyway whatsoever offer a method of a disabled user to know >>>>>>>>> whether or not an App is, or is not, accessible in advance of >>>>>>>>> purchase, this seemed to be a most reasonable compromise. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> However, in correspondence over the past week with Apple >>>>>>>>> iTunes support staff via e-mail in relation to an App I have >>>>>>>>> purchased which is inaccessible, Apple's stance has been both >>>>>>>>> surprising and frankly highly dismissive of our needs and >>>>>>>>> vulnerability when using Apple's App Store. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I have been point blank refused a refund upon this occasion, >>>>>>>>> with staff suggesting that I could leave a review for the App >>>>>>>>> which others could read, and or write to the developer. Whilst >>>>>>>>> I understand that the second suggestion may illicit a positive >>>>>>>>> response, and sometimes it does… In many instances developers >>>>>>>>> haven't even heard of Voice Over let alone understand what it >>>>>>>>> does and how they aught to address compliance with Apple's >>>>>>>>> Accessibility API's. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Of course, the best approach would be for Apple to make >>>>>>>>> compliance with its Accessibility API's a requirement for all >>>>>>>>> new Apps being approved to the App Store, indeed a range of >>>>>>>>> other options would also work, such as; a discount on the 30% >>>>>>>>> cut that Apple takes for compliant Apps, a penalty higher fee >>>>>>>>> (35% etc) for those that do not comply and perhaps indicating >>>>>>>>> with a marker in the App store which Apps do meet the >>>>>>>>> requirements. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Since Apple do none of these, despite so publicly professing >>>>>>>>> to up holding and supporting some of the most well implemented >>>>>>>>> accessibility innovation and support seen in the industry, it >>>>>>>>> seemed like a fair compromise that Apple voluntarily and >>>>>>>>> without complication offered a refund to customers who had >>>>>>>>> accessibility needs where an App proved to be inaccessible. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The situation now, though is that Apple is refusing in an >>>>>>>>> uncompromising and frankly shocking way to refund such >>>>>>>>> purchases, with patronising and unsympathetic suggestions as >>>>>>>>> to how we, as blind users, go about reviewing Apps etc. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I would ask that Apple firstly developed a robust policy in >>>>>>>>> this regard, and secondly, reviews options as to improving the >>>>>>>>> compliance uptake of developers within their iOS and Mac App >>>>>>>>> Stores. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So that I can convey your response to the ViPhone, >>>>>>>>> Macvisionaries and other Apple Accessibility user forums >>>>>>>>> promptly, I would sincerely appreciate your earliest feedback >>>>>>>>> and response on this issue. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Yours kindly. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Neil Barnfather >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.NeilBarnfather.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Neil Barnfather >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Talks List Administrator >>>>>>>>> Twitter @neilbarnfather >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, as well >>>>>>>>> as an Apple iOS, Macintosh and Android accessibility >>>>>>>>> specialist. For all your accessible phone, PDA and GPS related >>>>>>>>> enquiries visit www.talknav.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> URL: - www.talknav.com >>>>>>>>> e-mail: - serv...@talknav.com >>>>>>>>> Phone: - +44 844 999 4199 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>> "VIPhone" >>>>>>>>> Google >>>>>>>>> Group. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing viphone@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting >>>>>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Reach the VIPhone owner and moderators by emailing >>>>>>>>> viphone+ow...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Unsubscribe and leave VIPhone by emailing >>>>>>>>> viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> More VIPhone group options can be found by visiting >>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en. >>>>>>>>> --- You received this message because you are subscribed to >>>>>>>>> the Google Groups "VIPhone" group. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>> it, send an email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>> "VIPhone" >>>>>>>>> Google >>>>>>>>> Group. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing viphone@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting >>>>>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Reach the VIPhone owner and moderators by emailing >>>>>>>>> viphone+ow...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Unsubscribe and leave VIPhone by emailing >>>>>>>>> viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> More VIPhone group options can be found by visiting >>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en. >>>>>>>>> --- You received this message because you are subscribed to >>>>>>>>> the Google Groups "VIPhone" group. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>> it, send an email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>> "VIPhone" >>>>>>>>> Google Group. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing viphone@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting >>>>>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Reach the VIPhone owner and moderators by emailing >>>>>>>>> viphone+ow...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Unsubscribe and leave VIPhone by emailing >>>>>>>>> viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> More VIPhone group options can be found by visiting >>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en. >>>>>>>>> --- You received this message because you are subscribed to >>>>>>>>> the Google Groups "VIPhone" group. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>> it, send an email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>> "VIPhone" >>>>>>>> Google >>>>>>>> Group. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing viphone@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting >>>>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Reach the VIPhone owner and moderators by emailing >>>>>>>> viphone+ow...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Unsubscribe and leave VIPhone by emailing >>>>>>>> viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> More VIPhone group options can be found by visiting >>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en. >>>>>>>> --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>> Google Groups "VIPhone" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>> it, send an email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>> "VIPhone" >>>>>>>> Google Group. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing viphone@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting >>>>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Reach the VIPhone owner and moderators by emailing >>>>>>>> viphone+ow...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Unsubscribe and leave VIPhone by emailing >>>>>>>> viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> More VIPhone group options can be found by visiting >>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en. >>>>>>>> --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>> Google Groups "VIPhone" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>> it, send an email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" >>>>>>> Google Group. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing viphone@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting >>>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Reach the VIPhone owner and moderators by emailing >>>>>>> viphone+ow...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Unsubscribe and leave VIPhone by emailing >>>>>>> viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> More VIPhone group options can be found by visiting >>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en. >>>>>>> --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>> Google Groups "VIPhone" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>> it, send an email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" >>>>>> Google Group. >>>>>> >>>>>> Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing viphone@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> >>>>>> Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting >>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/. >>>>>> >>>>>> Reach the VIPhone owner and moderators by emailing >>>>>> viphone+ow...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> >>>>>> Unsubscribe and leave VIPhone by emailing >>>>>> viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> >>>>>> More VIPhone group options can be found by visiting >>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en. >>>>>> --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>> Google Groups "VIPhone" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" >>>>> Google Group. >>>>> >>>>> Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing viphone@googlegroups.com. >>>>> >>>>> Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/. >>>>> >>>>> Reach the VIPhone owner and moderators by emailing >>>>> viphone+ow...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> >>>>> Unsubscribe and leave VIPhone by emailing >>>>> viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> >>>>> More VIPhone group options can be found by visiting >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en. >>>>> --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>> Google Groups "VIPhone" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>> send an email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" >>>> Google >>>> Group. >>>> >>>> Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing viphone@googlegroups.com. >>>> >>>> Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/. >>>> >>>> Reach the VIPhone owner and moderators by emailing >>>> viphone+ow...@googlegroups.com. >>>> >>>> Unsubscribe and leave VIPhone by emailing >>>> viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>> >>>> More VIPhone group options can be found by visiting >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en. >>>> --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>> Google Groups "VIPhone" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>> send an email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" >>>> Google Group. >>>> >>>> Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing viphone@googlegroups.com. >>>> >>>> Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/. >>>> >>>> Reach the VIPhone owner and moderators by emailing >>>> viphone+ow...@googlegroups.com. >>>> >>>> Unsubscribe and leave VIPhone by emailing >>>> viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>> >>>> More VIPhone group options can be found by visiting >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en. >>>> --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>> Google Groups >> >>>> "VIPhone" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>> send an >> >>>> email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" >>> Google Group. >>> >>> Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing viphone@googlegroups.com. >>> >>> Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/. >>> >>> Reach the VIPhone owner and moderators by emailing >>> viphone+ow...@googlegroups.com. >>> >>> Unsubscribe and leave VIPhone by emailing >>> viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> >>> More VIPhone group options can be found by visiting >>> http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en. >>> --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>> Google Groups "VIPhone" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>> send an email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> > > -- > Christopher (CJ) > chaltain at Gmail > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google Group. > > Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing viphone@googlegroups.com. > > Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/. > > Reach the VIPhone owner and moderators by emailing viphone+ow...@googlegroups.com. > > Unsubscribe and leave VIPhone by emailing viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > > More VIPhone group options can be found by visiting http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en. > --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "VIPhone" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google Group. Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing viphone@googlegroups.com. Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/. Reach the VIPhone owner and moderators by emailing viphone+ow...@googlegroups.com. Unsubscribe and leave VIPhone by emailing viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. More VIPhone group options can be found by visiting http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en. --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "VIPhone" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google Group. Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing viphone@googlegroups.com. Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/. Reach the VIPhone owner and moderators by emailing viphone+ow...@googlegroups.com. Unsubscribe and leave VIPhone by emailing viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. More VIPhone group options can be found by visiting http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en. --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "VIPhone" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
