Re: Curious question about iPhone upgrade life

2017-09-25 Thread 'RobH.' via VIPhone 
You have to count the original version, so 4S worked on 5,6,7,8&9. 4 additional 
versions beyond the launch one then.

R.

- Original Message - 
From: "Robin" <robin-mel...@comcast.net>
To: <viphone@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2017 1:12 AM
Subject: Re: Curious question about iPhone upgrade life


Correction:
Apple's iOS Devices aren't supported for 5Years as Apple's iOS
Devices are ONLY supported for 4Years as it pertains to Receiving iOS
Software Updates ... i.e., Apple's iPhone4S, which Launched with
iOS5.0 & Last iOS Update was iOS9.0 ... That's ONLY 4Years of iOS
Updates NOT 5Years

Just Seeking to Correct UnTruths

Prior to that Apple's iOS Updates ONLY Lasted for 3Years as
Demonstrated by Apple's iPhone4, which Launched with iOS4 & was Last
Updated with iOS7

Nuff Said
At 12:54 AM 9/23/2017, you wrote:
>So I know that the iPhone is supported for five years when it comes
>to software updates. So how does that work with phones like the SE
>that was announced in 2016 but had an overhaul and upgrades in 2017.
>Will those latest phones be supported for a new five years or does
>the five years begin when the first model comes out?
>
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Re: Curious question about iPhone upgrade life

2017-09-24 Thread lenron brown 
I like having more than one device it makes it so I am not completely
killing the battery on my main device. I tend to use my windows comp
for most things but I use my phone for reading and paying bills and
all the app related things. I don't use my mac so much because, even
though it's a lovely computer. It doesn't allow me to enjoy gaming and
I have not really dug in to all the apps it offers. I was going to
finally get logic this morning but didn't because of the hard drive
being so small. I need to replace this 128 ssd.

On 9/24/17, Robin  wrote:
> Correction:
> Apple's iOS Devices aren't supported for 5Years as Apple's iOS
> Devices are ONLY supported for 4Years as it pertains to Receiving iOS
> Software Updates ... i.e., Apple's iPhone4S, which Launched with
> iOS5.0 & Last iOS Update was iOS9.0 ... That's ONLY 4Years of iOS
> Updates NOT 5Years
>
> Just Seeking to Correct UnTruths
>
> Prior to that Apple's iOS Updates ONLY Lasted for 3Years as
> Demonstrated by Apple's iPhone4, which Launched with iOS4 & was Last
> Updated with iOS7
>
> Nuff Said
> At 12:54 AM 9/23/2017, you wrote:
>>So I know that the iPhone is supported for five years when it comes
>>to software updates. So how does that work with phones like the SE
>>that was announced in 2016 but had an overhaul and upgrades in 2017.
>>Will those latest phones be supported for a new five years or does
>>the five years begin when the first model comes out?
>>
>>--
>>The following information is important for all members of the V iPhone
>> list.
>>
>>If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this
>>list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please
>>contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the
>>list itself.
>>
>>Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor.  Mark can be reached
>>at:  mk...@ucla.edu.  Your list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach
>>Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>>
>>The archives for this list can be searched at:
>>http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/
>>--- You received this message because you are subscribed to the
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-- 
Lenron Brown
Cell: 985-271-2832
Skype: ron.brown762

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Re: Curious question about iPhone upgrade life

2017-09-24 Thread Robin 

Correction:
Apple's iOS Devices aren't supported for 5Years as Apple's iOS 
Devices are ONLY supported for 4Years as it pertains to Receiving iOS 
Software Updates ... i.e., Apple's iPhone4S, which Launched with 
iOS5.0 & Last iOS Update was iOS9.0 ... That's ONLY 4Years of iOS 
Updates NOT 5Years


Just Seeking to Correct UnTruths

Prior to that Apple's iOS Updates ONLY Lasted for 3Years as 
Demonstrated by Apple's iPhone4, which Launched with iOS4 & was Last 
Updated with iOS7


Nuff Said
At 12:54 AM 9/23/2017, you wrote:
So I know that the iPhone is supported for five years when it comes 
to software updates. So how does that work with phones like the SE 
that was announced in 2016 but had an overhaul and upgrades in 2017. 
Will those latest phones be supported for a new five years or does 
the five years begin when the first model comes out?


--
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If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this 
list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please 
contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the 
list itself.


Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor.  Mark can be reached 
at:  mk...@ucla.edu.  Your list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach 
Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com


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RE: Curious question about iPhone upgrade life

2017-09-24 Thread Sieghard Weitzel 
Fair enough, I also do a lot on my iPhone although I don't use it as my primary 
device for things like email or web browsing. I can do these things just so 
much more efficiently on my PC with Jaws and since my work requires me to use 
the computer pretty much all day or at least to have it right there the iPhone 
for me is a phone and an audio book player and when I'm out and about or just 
want to quickly read an email it does that. It also is quick and easy for me to 
use my iPhone if I just want to check an account balance, but if I have to pay 
several bills or do transfers I again go to the computer since often these are 
business related transactions and I have to print a confirmation for whatever I 
am doing and printing to PDF is just so much easier and faster in Windows.
Of course I use apps like Seeing AI and KNFB Reader and have a number of 
connected devices like thermostat, lights, my ring doorbell and so on where the 
iPhone is awesome, but except for when I actually broke one no iPhone ever 
since my 4 in 2010 has ever failed me where it quit working and I needed an 
immediate replacement so that is just not a worry for me. I guess if I did 
catastrophic damage to it or lost it as I did with my iPhone 6S initially 
that's a different story, but then it's not like I can't get a replacement in a 
couple of days in such a situation.

Regards,
Sieghard

-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Mary Otten
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2017 1:27 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Curious question about iPhone upgrade life

Hi Sieghard,
It is a very reasonable question. I suppose I started having two devices 
because I bought the iPad mini two back when I had an iPhone, I forget which 
one, who's battery life was Les by a good bit then that on my current 7+. Are 
use the phone an amazing amount, mostly because my old PC is pretty much 
useless except for those few tasks, like railing things I need to have, for 
which I keep it around. And I have been disappointed with the performance of 
the Mac, with entirely too much Safari busy for this busy or that busy. I'm 
hoping that the new operating system do out next week will finally bring 
improvement. I also used the iPad mini for occasional note taking in meetings. 
Now the iPhone 7 Plus does have a much better battery life. The other thing I 
found that I really like about having two devices is that if your iPhone goes 
out, which mine has, not this one but a previous one, you're not dead in the 
water in terms of accessing all the stuff in the ecosystem. I certainly do not 
see any need to upgrade to an 8+ from my 7+, although it is entirely likely 
that if by next year they're still selling the 8+, and the new models don't 
have a home button, I will probably get the 8+ because of the home button. And 
if a new iPod touch were to come out or even an SE that had a reasonable price, 
like the current ones, but with updated technology, I would be happy to have 
that, which could be used as a back up phone if my main one ever went down and 
also serve all of the purposes of an iPod touch. I do so many things on the eye 
device, that I just don't want to be stuck with just one and have it go out. I 
have played around with android devices over the last couple of years in the 
hopes that maybe they would fill many of my needs. You can get android phones a 
whole lot cheaper then you can get iPhones. But alas, that hasn't worked out to 
my satisfaction.

Mary


Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 24, 2017, at 11:39 AM, Sieghard Weitzel <siegh...@live.ca> wrote:
> 
> Hi Mary,
> 
> What is your reasoning for having two devices? Don't get me wrong, everybody 
> can buy as many as they want, but when I had my old 5S around after I bought 
> my 6S Plus I thought I'd use it at home like an iPod Touch, but the fact was 
> that I never did because I find it just so much more convenient to have just 
> one device. I can understand why some people might like an iPad, but I never 
> got it why people have an iPhone and an iPod Touch or would want to have two 
> iPhones.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On 
> Behalf Of Mary Otten
> Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2017 5:34 PM
> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Curious question about iPhone upgrade life
> 
> Considering that they did a little bit of a refresh to the iPhone SE earlier 
> this year, although not to the chip or anything like that, my guess is that 
> they're going to come out with at least one more model of the se. That's what 
> I hope anyway. you know, if they don't come out with another iPod touch, I 
> would be awfully tempted to purchase an seas a second device, because my iPad 
> mini 2 it's just getting really too slow, and I am not going to pay the big 
> bucks for a bi

Re: Curious question about iPhone upgrade life

2017-09-24 Thread Mary Otten 
Hi Sieghard, 
It is a very reasonable question. I suppose I started having two devices 
because I bought the iPad mini two back when I had an iPhone, I forget which 
one, who's battery life was Les by a good bit then that on my current 7+. Are 
use the phone an amazing amount, mostly because my old PC is pretty much 
useless except for those few tasks, like railing things I need to have, for 
which I keep it around. And I have been disappointed with the performance of 
the Mac, with entirely too much Safari busy for this busy or that busy. I'm 
hoping that the new operating system do out next week will finally bring 
improvement. I also used the iPad mini for occasional note taking in meetings. 
Now the iPhone 7 Plus does have a much better battery life. The other thing I 
found that I really like about having two devices is that if your iPhone goes 
out, which mine has, not this one but a previous one, you're not dead in the 
water in terms of accessing all the stuff in the ecosystem. I certainly do not 
see any need to upgrade to an 8+ from my 7+, although it is entirely likely 
that if by next year they're still selling the 8+, and the new models don't 
have a home button, I will probably get the 8+ because of the home button. And 
if a new iPod touch were to come out or even an SE that had a reasonable price, 
like the current ones, but with updated technology, I would be happy to have 
that, which could be used as a back up phone if my main one ever went down and 
also serve all of the purposes of an iPod touch. I do so many things on the eye 
device, that I just don't want to be stuck with just one and have it go out. I 
have played around with android devices over the last couple of years in the 
hopes that maybe they would fill many of my needs. You can get android phones a 
whole lot cheaper then you can get iPhones. But alas, that hasn't worked out to 
my satisfaction.

Mary


Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 24, 2017, at 11:39 AM, Sieghard Weitzel <siegh...@live.ca> wrote:
> 
> Hi Mary,
> 
> What is your reasoning for having two devices? Don't get me wrong, everybody 
> can buy as many as they want, but when I had my old 5S around after I bought 
> my 6S Plus I thought I'd use it at home like an iPod Touch, but the fact was 
> that I never did because I find it just so much more convenient to have just 
> one device. I can understand why some people might like an iPad, but I never 
> got it why people have an iPhone and an iPod Touch or would want to have two 
> iPhones.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of 
> Mary Otten
> Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2017 5:34 PM
> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Curious question about iPhone upgrade life
> 
> Considering that they did a little bit of a refresh to the iPhone SE earlier 
> this year, although not to the chip or anything like that, my guess is that 
> they're going to come out with at least one more model of the se. That's what 
> I hope anyway. you know, if they don't come out with another iPod touch, I 
> would be awfully tempted to purchase an seas a second device, because my iPad 
> mini 2 it's just getting really too slow, and I am not going to pay the big 
> bucks for a big iPad.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Sep 23, 2017, at 5:28 PM, Vicky Collins <v-coll...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> 
>> I just checked the Apple Store app here in the United States, and they are 
>> still selling the iPhone SE, at least for now, anyway..  Looks like the 32GB 
>> is $349.00, while the 128GB costs $449.00.
>> 
>> - Original Message -
>> From: Sieghard Weitzel <siegh...@live.ca
>> To: "viphone@googlegroups.com" <viphone@googlegroups.com Date sent: 
>> Sat, 23 Sep 2017 15:03:19 +
>> Subject: RE: Curious question about iPhone upgrade life
>> 
>> Don't take this for granted, for one thing I would call it more like 4 
>> years, I guess by the time iOS 12 comes out the 5S is 5 years old, but if 
>> iOS 11 is the last update it gets then it's really supported for 4 years.  
>> Anyways, my guess in the case of the SE it's maybe more based on the 
>> technology that is in the phone which is I believe a mix between 6 and 6S 
>> technology.  Bot th eSE and 6S/6S Plus have the A9 chip, but the SE for 
>> example does not have 3D Touch nor does it have the second generation Touch 
>> Id sensor.  If Apple continues to built on 3D Touch then maybe there could 
>> be a time when the 6S is still supported and the SE maybe is not.
>> Right now I definitely would discourage everybody from buying an iPhone SE 
>> unless that is all they could afford since if I remember correctly it is no 
>> longer officially in the line up

RE: Curious question about iPhone upgrade life

2017-09-24 Thread Sieghard Weitzel 
Hi Mary,

What is your reasoning for having two devices? Don't get me wrong, everybody 
can buy as many as they want, but when I had my old 5S around after I bought my 
6S Plus I thought I'd use it at home like an iPod Touch, but the fact was that 
I never did because I find it just so much more convenient to have just one 
device. I can understand why some people might like an iPad, but I never got it 
why people have an iPhone and an iPod Touch or would want to have two iPhones.

-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Mary Otten
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2017 5:34 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Curious question about iPhone upgrade life

Considering that they did a little bit of a refresh to the iPhone SE earlier 
this year, although not to the chip or anything like that, my guess is that 
they're going to come out with at least one more model of the se. That's what I 
hope anyway. you know, if they don't come out with another iPod touch, I would 
be awfully tempted to purchase an seas a second device, because my iPad mini 2 
it's just getting really too slow, and I am not going to pay the big bucks for 
a big iPad.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 23, 2017, at 5:28 PM, Vicky Collins <v-coll...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> 
> I just checked the Apple Store app here in the United States, and they are 
> still selling the iPhone SE, at least for now, anyway..  Looks like the 32GB 
> is $349.00, while the 128GB costs $449.00.
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: Sieghard Weitzel <siegh...@live.ca
> To: "viphone@googlegroups.com" <viphone@googlegroups.com Date sent: 
> Sat, 23 Sep 2017 15:03:19 +
> Subject: RE: Curious question about iPhone upgrade life
> 
> Don't take this for granted, for one thing I would call it more like 4 years, 
> I guess by the time iOS 12 comes out the 5S is 5 years old, but if iOS 11 is 
> the last update it gets then it's really supported for 4 years.  Anyways, my 
> guess in the case of the SE it's maybe more based on the technology that is 
> in the phone which is I believe a mix between 6 and 6S technology.  Bot th 
> eSE and 6S/6S Plus have the A9 chip, but the SE for example does not have 3D 
> Touch nor does it have the second generation Touch Id sensor.  If Apple 
> continues to built on 3D Touch then maybe there could be a time when the 6S 
> is still supported and the SE maybe is not.
> Right now I definitely would discourage everybody from buying an iPhone SE 
> unless that is all they could afford since if I remember correctly it is no 
> longer officially in the line up of phones Apple will sell.  This of course 
> means they may release an updated SE in the spring again which then probably 
> would have second generation Touch Id and probably the A10 chip since they 
> are not going to put the A11 Bionic chip in a phone they designed to be a 
> price-point phone.
> As a last comment I would also say that as hardware and software mature Apple 
> may offer new iOS versions on even older phones although I think this may not 
> be as much a concern because I doubt that many people who have an iPhone 5 
> now will hold to it for much longer.
> 
> Regards,
> Sieghard
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On 
> Behalf Of Gordon
> Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2017 12:54 AM
> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Curious question about iPhone upgrade life
> 
> So I know that the iPhone is supported for five years when it comes to 
> software updates.  So how does that work with phones like the SE that was 
> announced in 2016 but had an overhaul and upgrades in 2017.  Will those 
> latest phones be supported for a new five years or does the five years begin 
> when the first model comes out?
> 
> --
> The following information is important for all members of the V iPhone list..
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> 
> Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor.  Mark can be reached at:  
> mk...@ucla.edu.  Your list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
> 
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/
> ---
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "VIPhone" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at

Re: Curious question about iPhone upgrade life

2017-09-23 Thread Mary Otten 
Considering that they did a little bit of a refresh to the iPhone SE earlier 
this year, although not to the chip or anything like that, my guess is that 
they're going to come out with at least one more model of the se. That's what I 
hope anyway. you know, if they don't come out with another iPod touch, I would 
be awfully tempted to purchase an seas a second device, because my iPad mini 2 
it's just getting really too slow, and I am not going to pay the big bucks for 
a big iPad.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 23, 2017, at 5:28 PM, Vicky Collins <v-coll...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> 
> I just checked the Apple Store app here in the United States, and they are 
> still selling the iPhone SE, at least for now, anyway..  Looks like the 32GB 
> is $349.00, while the 128GB costs $449.00.
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: Sieghard Weitzel <siegh...@live.ca
> To: "viphone@googlegroups.com" <viphone@googlegroups.com
> Date sent: Sat, 23 Sep 2017 15:03:19 +
> Subject: RE: Curious question about iPhone upgrade life
> 
> Don't take this for granted, for one thing I would call it more like 4 years, 
> I guess by the time iOS 12 comes out the 5S is 5 years old, but if iOS 11 is 
> the last update it gets then it's really supported for 4 years.  Anyways, my 
> guess in the case of the SE it's maybe more based on the technology that is 
> in the phone which is I believe a mix between 6 and 6S technology.  Bot th 
> eSE and 6S/6S Plus have the A9 chip, but the SE for example does not have 3D 
> Touch nor does it have the second generation Touch Id sensor.  If Apple 
> continues to built on 3D Touch then maybe there could be a time when the 6S 
> is still supported and the SE maybe is not.
> Right now I definitely would discourage everybody from buying an iPhone SE 
> unless that is all they could afford since if I remember correctly it is no 
> longer officially in the line up of phones Apple will sell.  This of course 
> means they may release an updated SE in the spring again which then probably 
> would have second generation Touch Id and probably the A10 chip since they 
> are not going to put the A11 Bionic chip in a phone they designed to be a 
> price-point phone.
> As a last comment I would also say that as hardware and software mature Apple 
> may offer new iOS versions on even older phones although I think this may not 
> be as much a concern because I doubt that many people who have an iPhone 5 
> now will hold to it for much longer.
> 
> Regards,
> Sieghard
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of 
> Gordon
> Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2017 12:54 AM
> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Curious question about iPhone upgrade life
> 
> So I know that the iPhone is supported for five years when it comes to 
> software updates.  So how does that work with phones like the SE that was 
> announced in 2016 but had an overhaul and upgrades in 2017.  Will those 
> latest phones be supported for a new five years or does the five years begin 
> when the first model comes out?
> 
> --
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RE: Curious question about iPhone upgrade life

2017-09-23 Thread Vicky Collins 
I just checked the Apple Store app here in the United States, and 
they are still selling the iPhone SE, at least for now, anyway..  
Looks like the 32GB is $349.00, while the 128GB costs $449.00.


- Original Message -
From: Sieghard Weitzel <siegh...@live.ca
To: "viphone@googlegroups.com" <viphone@googlegroups.com
Date sent: Sat, 23 Sep 2017 15:03:19 +0000
Subject: RE: Curious question about iPhone upgrade life

Don't take this for granted, for one thing I would call it more 
like 4 years, I guess by the time iOS 12 comes out the 5S is 5 
years old, but if iOS 11 is the last update it gets then it's 
really supported for 4 years.  Anyways, my guess in the case of 
the SE it's maybe more based on the technology that is in the 
phone which is I believe a mix between 6 and 6S technology.  Bot 
th eSE and 6S/6S Plus have the A9 chip, but the SE for example 
does not have 3D Touch nor does it have the second generation 
Touch Id sensor.  If Apple continues to built on 3D Touch then 
maybe there could be a time when the 6S is still supported and 
the SE maybe is not.
Right now I definitely would discourage everybody from buying an 
iPhone SE unless that is all they could afford since if I 
remember correctly it is no longer officially in the line up of 
phones Apple will sell.  This of course means they may release an 
updated SE in the spring again which then probably would have 
second generation Touch Id and probably the A10 chip since they 
are not going to put the A11 Bionic chip in a phone they designed 
to be a price-point phone.
As a last comment I would also say that as hardware and software 
mature Apple may offer new iOS versions on even older phones 
although I think this may not be as much a concern because I 
doubt that many people who have an iPhone 5 now will hold to it 
for much longer.


Regards,
Sieghard

-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of Gordon

Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2017 12:54 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Curious question about iPhone upgrade life

So I know that the iPhone is supported for five years when it 
comes to software updates.  So how does that work with phones 
like the SE that was announced in 2016 but had an overhaul and 
upgrades in 2017.  Will those latest phones be supported for a 
new five years or does the five years begin when the first model 
comes out?


--
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iPhone list..


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Y

RE: Curious question about iPhone upgrade life

2017-09-23 Thread Sieghard Weitzel 
Don't take this for granted, for one thing I would call it more like 4 years, I 
guess by the time iOS 12 comes out the 5S is 5 years old, but if iOS 11 is the 
last update it gets then it's really supported for 4 years. Anyways, my guess 
in the case of the SE it's maybe more based on the technology that is in the 
phone which is I believe a mix between 6 and 6S technology. Bot th eSE and 
6S/6S Plus have the A9 chip, but the SE for example does not have 3D Touch nor 
does it have the second generation Touch Id sensor. If Apple continues to built 
on 3D Touch then maybe there could be a time when the 6S is still supported and 
the SE maybe is not.
Right now I definitely would discourage everybody from buying an iPhone SE 
unless that is all they could afford since if I remember correctly it is no 
longer officially in the line up of phones Apple will sell. This of course 
means they may release an updated SE in the spring again which then probably 
would have second generation Touch Id and probably the A10 chip since they are 
not going to put the A11 Bionic chip in a phone they designed to be a 
price-point phone.
As a last comment I would also say that as hardware and software mature Apple 
may offer new iOS versions on even older phones although I think this may not 
be as much a concern because I doubt that many people who have an iPhone 5 now 
will hold to it for much longer.

Regards,
Sieghard

-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Gordon
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2017 12:54 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Curious question about iPhone upgrade life

So I know that the iPhone is supported for five years when it comes to software 
updates. So how does that work with phones like the SE that was announced in 
2016 but had an overhaul and upgrades in 2017. Will those latest phones be 
supported for a new five years or does the five years begin when the first 
model comes out?

-- 
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mk...@ucla.edu.  Your list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
caraqu...@caraquinn.com

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