different observation concerning When will Apple take this seriously
Hi, I agree with the comments made here concerning Apple as opposed to the other phones on the market. Apple has done quite a lot to make its phone work for blind people and today leads the accessibility race by a wide margin. In part, iPhones are accessible because blind people made it happen. Not everyone knows, for example, that the National Federation, fresh off defeating Target in an accessibility law suit, turned its sights to Apple as that company was not doing anything to make accessibility happen. Apple came through without litigation and today we see the results. However, what I do believe we have a right to demand is some movement on Apple's part to make accessibility more of a fact and mindset within the minds of its partners. Apple should create minimum accessibility standards for ALL apps in the App Store. True, many apps are sight oriented and will not and cannot be expected to produce results we as blind people can see. However, Apple can at least require that the controls on all apps be accessible to Voiceover. Apple should complete its accessible commitment by changing the mindset of its partners to provide the maximum usability possible for blind people. All too often apps go in and out of being accessible to us. There is no reason for this. Apple could fix this problem easily. By doing so it would show to us and the world its true commitment to accessibility at all levels. To put it another way, it really isn't enough to make its own device work for us, but it also should insure that we can keep up by having the most possible access to the apps that run on its devices. Having guidelines and suggestions has proven not to be enough. Apple should work with blind people to create better standards for app access. Apple is the gate keeper for apps through the App Store. It has, I believe, the obligation to insure the maximum possible access for those apps. Best, Michael Hingson The Michael Hingson Group, INC. Speaking with Vision Michael Hingson, President (415) 827-4084 i...@michaelhingson.com To order Michael Hingson's new book, Thunder Dog, and check on Michael Hingson's speaking availability for your next event please visit: www.michaelhingson.com To purchase your own portrait of Roselle painted by the world's foremost animal artist, Ron Burns, please visit http://www.ronburns.com/roselle -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the VIPhone Google Group. Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing viphone@googlegroups.com. Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/. Reach the VIPhone owner and moderators by emailing viphone+ow...@googlegroups.com. Unsubscribe and leave VIPhone by emailing viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. More VIPhone group options can be found by visiting http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en. --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups VIPhone group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: different observation concerning When will Apple take this seriously
Hello, Whoa!! Hold on a second. lol. The law suit you speak of was filed in 2006. By this time, Apple had already put out Mac OSX 10.4 Tiger which contained the Voiceover screen reader. The courts Ruled in favor of the NFB lead suit in September 2007. By this time, the iPhone had only been out 3 months. The actual settlement wrapped up in September 2008. By June 2009, Voiceover was on the new iPhone 3Gs. So where exactly in that timeline did the NFB have the time to turn their sites on Apples lack of accessibility? I think you might be overstating the NFB’s influence quite a bit here. I mean, since you said “fresh off” that would leave the NFB with only 8 months to turn their sights on Apple before Voiceover was introduced on the iPhone. So obviously, Voiceover and iOS 3.0 wasn’t developed in 8 months. The way Apple tells it, they had every intention of adding a screen reader to IOS. It took them over 2 years to actually come up with a multi touch gesture based screen reader. But with that aside, I think the word “partner” when speaking about Apple and developers of IOS Apps should be used loosely. I mean, there are literally tens of thousands of developers creating and supporting hundreds of thousands of apps. Apple has made the platform accessible, and has made literature easily available for developers to insure accessibility in their apps. In my opinion, Apple has done their job. It’s now up to us to interact with the developers like we’ve been doing to make sure accessibility is up to par. In my opinion, this model works. It’s the best model out there so far actually. JMO. Ricardo Walker rica...@appletothecore.info Twitter:@apple2thecore www.appletothecore.info On Nov 11, 2013, at 10:23 AM, Michael Hingson i...@michaelhingson.com wrote: Hi, I agree with the comments made here concerning Apple as opposed to the other phones on the market. Apple has done quite a lot to make its phone work for blind people and today leads the accessibility race by a wide margin. In part, iPhones are accessible because blind people made it happen. Not everyone knows, for example, that the National Federation, fresh off defeating Target in an accessibility law suit, turned its sights to Apple as that company was not doing anything to make accessibility happen. Apple came through without litigation and today we see the results. However, what I do believe we have a right to demand is some movement on Apple's part to make accessibility more of a fact and mindset within the minds of its partners. Apple should create minimum accessibility standards for ALL apps in the App Store. True, many apps are sight oriented and will not and cannot be expected to produce results we as blind people can see. However, Apple can at least require that the controls on all apps be accessible to Voiceover. Apple should complete its accessible commitment by changing the mindset of its partners to provide the maximum usability possible for blind people. All too often apps go in and out of being accessible to us. There is no reason for this. Apple could fix this problem easily. By doing so it would show to us and the world its true commitment to accessibility at all levels. To put it another way, it really isn't enough to make its own device work for us, but it also should insure that we can keep up by having the most possible access to the apps that run on its devices. Having guidelines and suggestions has proven not to be enough. Apple should work with blind people to create better standards for app access. Apple is the gate keeper for apps through the App Store. It has, I believe, the obligation to insure the maximum possible access for those apps. Best, Michael Hingson The Michael Hingson Group, INC. Speaking with Vision Michael Hingson, President (415) 827-4084 i...@michaelhingson.com To order Michael Hingson's new book, Thunder Dog, and check on Michael Hingson's speaking availability for your next event please visit: www.michaelhingson.com To purchase your own portrait of Roselle painted by the world's foremost animal artist, Ron Burns, please visit http://www.ronburns.com/roselle -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the VIPhone Google Group. Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing viphone@googlegroups.com. Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/. Reach the VIPhone owner and moderators by emailing viphone+ow...@googlegroups.com. Unsubscribe and leave VIPhone by emailing viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. More VIPhone group options can be found by visiting http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en. --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups VIPhone group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to
Re: different observation concerning When will Apple take this seriously
I agree. Apple's iOS has created a system whereby we have a better than 50% chance that any app we purchase will be at least partially accessible. This is far better than any other platform on the market, whilst respecting the app developer's right to develop and sell any type of app which brings or enhances functionality to the iPhone. This is, indeed, the best system out there. Because we are not suing people, they are actually more willing to work collaboratively with us, and the developers who do not work with us usually have competition which is willing to work with us. As for the development of the gesture-based screen reader, it was well-known by everybody, including the NFB, that blind people would not be able to use a gesture-based screen reader. The standard proposals before VoiceOver came out on the iPhone 3 GS included some form of button-based tactile overlay which would be attached to the iPhone so blind people could successfully use it. As this topic relates directly to my research, if anyone has any credible source information that is different from the above (which all the literature I have located thus far fully supports), please send me the source citations so I can evaluate, and possibly use them. As for the NFB, I recall that organisation becoming rather upset at Apple a few years ago because Apple ignored requests from NFB for Apple to send a highly placed staff member to the NFB's national convention for a reward on behalf of the organised blind? As I understand it, this perceived snub of the NFB by Apple encouraged a series of comparisons between Apple and other products in the Braille Monitor which all demonstrated that Apple's accessibility was very much sub-par in comparison to these other devices. I would suggest you not pursue this line that the NFB had any influence over Apple, because I have a very strong suspicion that the NFB will not be shown in a very positive light if we examine the materials from that period of time. David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA Email: dchitten...@gmail.com Mobile: +64 21 2288 288 Sent from my iPhone On 12 Nov 2013, at 5:05, Ricardo Walker rwalker...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, Whoa!! Hold on a second. lol. The law suit you speak of was filed in 2006. By this time, Apple had already put out Mac OSX 10.4 Tiger which contained the Voiceover screen reader. The courts Ruled in favor of the NFB lead suit in September 2007. By this time, the iPhone had only been out 3 months. The actual settlement wrapped up in September 2008. By June 2009, Voiceover was on the new iPhone 3Gs. So where exactly in that timeline did the NFB have the time to turn their sites on Apples lack of accessibility? I think you might be overstating the NFB’s influence quite a bit here. I mean, since you said “fresh off” that would leave the NFB with only 8 months to turn their sights on Apple before Voiceover was introduced on the iPhone. So obviously, Voiceover and iOS 3.0 wasn’t developed in 8 months. The way Apple tells it, they had every intention of adding a screen reader to IOS. It took them over 2 years to actually come up with a multi touch gesture based screen reader. But with that aside, I think the word “partner” when speaking about Apple and developers of IOS Apps should be used loosely. I mean, there are literally tens of thousands of developers creating and supporting hundreds of thousands of apps. Apple has made the platform accessible, and has made literature easily available for developers to insure accessibility in their apps. In my opinion, Apple has done their job. It’s now up to us to interact with the developers like we’ve been doing to make sure accessibility is up to par. In my opinion, this model works. It’s the best model out there so far actually. JMO. Ricardo Walker rica...@appletothecore.info Twitter:@apple2thecore www.appletothecore.info On Nov 11, 2013, at 10:23 AM, Michael Hingson i...@michaelhingson.com wrote: Hi, I agree with the comments made here concerning Apple as opposed to the other phones on the market. Apple has done quite a lot to make its phone work for blind people and today leads the accessibility race by a wide margin. In part, iPhones are accessible because blind people made it happen. Not everyone knows, for example, that the National Federation, fresh off defeating Target in an accessibility law suit, turned its sights to Apple as that company was not doing anything to make accessibility happen. Apple came through without litigation and today we see the results. However, what I do believe we have a right to demand is some movement on Apple's part to make accessibility more of a fact and mindset within the minds of its partners. Apple should create minimum accessibility standards for ALL apps in the App Store. True, many apps are sight oriented and will not and cannot be expected to produce results we as
Re: different observation concerning When will Apple take this seriously
instead of having a going nowhere discussion about this why don't you all who have such strong feelings express them to the apple accessibility folks. I believe their email address is accessibil...@apple.com Fred Olver - Original Message - From: David Chittenden dchitten...@gmail.com To: viphone@googlegroups.com Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:53 AM Subject: Re: different observation concerning When will Apple take this seriously I agree. Apple's iOS has created a system whereby we have a better than 50% chance that any app we purchase will be at least partially accessible. This is far better than any other platform on the market, whilst respecting the app developer's right to develop and sell any type of app which brings or enhances functionality to the iPhone. This is, indeed, the best system out there. Because we are not suing people, they are actually more willing to work collaboratively with us, and the developers who do not work with us usually have competition which is willing to work with us. As for the development of the gesture-based screen reader, it was well-known by everybody, including the NFB, that blind people would not be able to use a gesture-based screen reader. The standard proposals before VoiceOver came out on the iPhone 3 GS included some form of button-based tactile overlay which would be attached to the iPhone so blind people could successfully use it. As this topic relates directly to my research, if anyone has any credible source information that is different from the above (which all the literature I have located thus far fully supports), please send me the source citations so I can evaluate, and possibly use them. As for the NFB, I recall that organisation becoming rather upset at Apple a few years ago because Apple ignored requests from NFB for Apple to send a highly placed staff member to the NFB's national convention for a reward on behalf of the organised blind? As I understand it, this perceived snub of the NFB by Apple encouraged a series of comparisons between Apple and other products in the Braille Monitor which all demonstrated that Apple's accessibility was very much sub-par in comparison to these other devices. I would suggest you not pursue this line that the NFB had any influence over Apple, because I have a very strong suspicion that the NFB will not be shown in a very positive light if we examine the materials from that period of time. David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA Email: dchitten...@gmail.com Mobile: +64 21 2288 288 Sent from my iPhone On 12 Nov 2013, at 5:05, Ricardo Walker rwalker...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, Whoa!! Hold on a second. lol. The law suit you speak of was filed in 2006. By this time, Apple had already put out Mac OSX 10.4 Tiger which contained the Voiceover screen reader. The courts Ruled in favor of the NFB lead suit in September 2007. By this time, the iPhone had only been out 3 months. The actual settlement wrapped up in September 2008. By June 2009, Voiceover was on the new iPhone 3Gs. So where exactly in that timeline did the NFB have the time to turn their sites on Apples lack of accessibility? I think you might be overstating the NFB’s influence quite a bit here. I mean, since you said “fresh off” that would leave the NFB with only 8 months to turn their sights on Apple before Voiceover was introduced on the iPhone. So obviously, Voiceover and iOS 3.0 wasn’t developed in 8 months. The way Apple tells it, they had every intention of adding a screen reader to IOS. It took them over 2 years to actually come up with a multi touch gesture based screen reader. But with that aside, I think the word “partner” when speaking about Apple and developers of IOS Apps should be used loosely. I mean, there are literally tens of thousands of developers creating and supporting hundreds of thousands of apps. Apple has made the platform accessible, and has made literature easily available for developers to insure accessibility in their apps. In my opinion, Apple has done their job. It’s now up to us to interact with the developers like we’ve been doing to make sure accessibility is up to par. In my opinion, this model works. It’s the best model out there so far actually. JMO. Ricardo Walker rica...@appletothecore.info Twitter:@apple2thecore www.appletothecore.info On Nov 11, 2013, at 10:23 AM, Michael Hingson i...@michaelhingson.com wrote: Hi, I agree with the comments made here concerning Apple as opposed to the other phones on the market. Apple has done quite a lot to make its phone work for blind people and today leads the accessibility race by a wide margin. In part, iPhones are accessible because blind people made it happen. Not everyone knows, for example, that the National Federation, fresh off defeating Target in an accessibility law suit, turned its sights to Apple as that company was not doing anything to make accessibility happen. Apple
Re: different observation concerning When will Apple take this seriously
Michael I don't agree with what you are suggesting. Why should Apple force a program which is of no use to the blind be forced to implaent accessibility features? On 11/11/13, Fred Olver goodfo...@charter.net wrote: instead of having a going nowhere discussion about this why don't you all who have such strong feelings express them to the apple accessibility folks. I believe their email address is accessibil...@apple.com Fred Olver - Original Message - From: David Chittenden dchitten...@gmail.com To: viphone@googlegroups.com Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:53 AM Subject: Re: different observation concerning When will Apple take this seriously I agree. Apple's iOS has created a system whereby we have a better than 50% chance that any app we purchase will be at least partially accessible. This is far better than any other platform on the market, whilst respecting the app developer's right to develop and sell any type of app which brings or enhances functionality to the iPhone. This is, indeed, the best system out there. Because we are not suing people, they are actually more willing to work collaboratively with us, and the developers who do not work with us usually have competition which is willing to work with us. As for the development of the gesture-based screen reader, it was well-known by everybody, including the NFB, that blind people would not be able to use a gesture-based screen reader. The standard proposals before VoiceOver came out on the iPhone 3 GS included some form of button-based tactile overlay which would be attached to the iPhone so blind people could successfully use it. As this topic relates directly to my research, if anyone has any credible source information that is different from the above (which all the literature I have located thus far fully supports), please send me the source citations so I can evaluate, and possibly use them. As for the NFB, I recall that organisation becoming rather upset at Apple a few years ago because Apple ignored requests from NFB for Apple to send a highly placed staff member to the NFB's national convention for a reward on behalf of the organised blind? As I understand it, this perceived snub of the NFB by Apple encouraged a series of comparisons between Apple and other products in the Braille Monitor which all demonstrated that Apple's accessibility was very much sub-par in comparison to these other devices. I would suggest you not pursue this line that the NFB had any influence over Apple, because I have a very strong suspicion that the NFB will not be shown in a very positive light if we examine the materials from that period of time. David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA Email: dchitten...@gmail.com Mobile: +64 21 2288 288 Sent from my iPhone On 12 Nov 2013, at 5:05, Ricardo Walker rwalker...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, Whoa!! Hold on a second. lol. The law suit you speak of was filed in 2006. By this time, Apple had already put out Mac OSX 10.4 Tiger which contained the Voiceover screen reader. The courts Ruled in favor of the NFB lead suit in September 2007. By this time, the iPhone had only been out 3 months. The actual settlement wrapped up in September 2008. By June 2009, Voiceover was on the new iPhone 3Gs. So where exactly in that timeline did the NFB have the time to turn their sites on Apples lack of accessibility? I think you might be overstating the NFB’s influence quite a bit here. I mean, since you said “fresh off” that would leave the NFB with only 8 months to turn their sights on Apple before Voiceover was introduced on the iPhone. So obviously, Voiceover and iOS 3.0 wasn’t developed in 8 months. The way Apple tells it, they had every intention of adding a screen reader to IOS. It took them over 2 years to actually come up with a multi touch gesture based screen reader. But with that aside, I think the word “partner” when speaking about Apple and developers of IOS Apps should be used loosely. I mean, there are literally tens of thousands of developers creating and supporting hundreds of thousands of apps. Apple has made the platform accessible, and has made literature easily available for developers to insure accessibility in their apps. In my opinion, Apple has done their job. It’s now up to us to interact with the developers like we’ve been doing to make sure accessibility is up to par. In my opinion, this model works. It’s the best model out there so far actually. JMO. Ricardo Walker rica...@appletothecore.info Twitter:@apple2thecore www.appletothecore.info On Nov 11, 2013, at 10:23 AM, Michael Hingson i...@michaelhingson.com wrote: Hi, I agree with the comments made here concerning Apple as opposed to the other phones on the market. Apple has done quite a lot to make its phone work for blind people and today leads the accessibility race by a wide margin. In part, iPhones are accessible because
Re: different observation concerning When will Apple take this seriously
Exactly. Would love to play Candy Crush, Pet Rescue Saga and all that, but to be honest they cannot be made accessible due to the nature of the games. Am jealous of my sighted peers though grin. E-mail Facebook and iMessage christopher...@gmail.com On 11/11/2013 18:16, John Diakogeorgiou wrote: Michael I don't agree with what you are suggesting. Why should Apple force a program which is of no use to the blind be forced to implaent accessibility features? On 11/11/13, Fred Olver goodfo...@charter.net wrote: instead of having a going nowhere discussion about this why don't you all who have such strong feelings express them to the apple accessibility folks. I believe their email address is accessibil...@apple.com Fred Olver - Original Message - From: David Chittenden dchitten...@gmail.com To: viphone@googlegroups.com Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:53 AM Subject: Re: different observation concerning When will Apple take this seriously I agree. Apple's iOS has created a system whereby we have a better than 50% chance that any app we purchase will be at least partially accessible. This is far better than any other platform on the market, whilst respecting the app developer's right to develop and sell any type of app which brings or enhances functionality to the iPhone. This is, indeed, the best system out there. Because we are not suing people, they are actually more willing to work collaboratively with us, and the developers who do not work with us usually have competition which is willing to work with us. As for the development of the gesture-based screen reader, it was well-known by everybody, including the NFB, that blind people would not be able to use a gesture-based screen reader. The standard proposals before VoiceOver came out on the iPhone 3 GS included some form of button-based tactile overlay which would be attached to the iPhone so blind people could successfully use it. As this topic relates directly to my research, if anyone has any credible source information that is different from the above (which all the literature I have located thus far fully supports), please send me the source citations so I can evaluate, and possibly use them. As for the NFB, I recall that organisation becoming rather upset at Apple a few years ago because Apple ignored requests from NFB for Apple to send a highly placed staff member to the NFB's national convention for a reward on behalf of the organised blind? As I understand it, this perceived snub of the NFB by Apple encouraged a series of comparisons between Apple and other products in the Braille Monitor which all demonstrated that Apple's accessibility was very much sub-par in comparison to these other devices. I would suggest you not pursue this line that the NFB had any influence over Apple, because I have a very strong suspicion that the NFB will not be shown in a very positive light if we examine the materials from that period of time. David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA Email: dchitten...@gmail.com Mobile: +64 21 2288 288 Sent from my iPhone On 12 Nov 2013, at 5:05, Ricardo Walker rwalker...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, Whoa!! Hold on a second. lol. The law suit you speak of was filed in 2006. By this time, Apple had already put out Mac OSX 10.4 Tiger which contained the Voiceover screen reader. The courts Ruled in favor of the NFB lead suit in September 2007. By this time, the iPhone had only been out 3 months. The actual settlement wrapped up in September 2008. By June 2009, Voiceover was on the new iPhone 3Gs. So where exactly in that timeline did the NFB have the time to turn their sites on Apples lack of accessibility? I think you might be overstating the NFB’s influence quite a bit here. I mean, since you said “fresh off” that would leave the NFB with only 8 months to turn their sights on Apple before Voiceover was introduced on the iPhone. So obviously, Voiceover and iOS 3.0 wasn’t developed in 8 months. The way Apple tells it, they had every intention of adding a screen reader to IOS. It took them over 2 years to actually come up with a multi touch gesture based screen reader. But with that aside, I think the word “partner” when speaking about Apple and developers of IOS Apps should be used loosely. I mean, there are literally tens of thousands of developers creating and supporting hundreds of thousands of apps. Apple has made the platform accessible, and has made literature easily available for developers to insure accessibility in their apps. In my opinion, Apple has done their job. It’s now up to us to interact with the developers like we’ve been doing to make sure accessibility is up to par. In my opinion, this model works. It’s the best model out there so far actually. JMO. Ricardo Walker rica...@appletothecore.info Twitter:@apple2thecore www.appletothecore.info On Nov 11, 2013, at 10:23 AM, Michael Hingson i...@michaelhingson.com wrote: Hi, I agree with the comments made here
Re: different observation concerning When will Apple take this seriously
In some ways I'm jealous but at the same time I''m glad since I would be wasting to much time playing games. On 11/11/13, Chris H christopher...@gmail.com wrote: Exactly. Would love to play Candy Crush, Pet Rescue Saga and all that, but to be honest they cannot be made accessible due to the nature of the games. Am jealous of my sighted peers though grin. E-mail Facebook and iMessage christopher...@gmail.com On 11/11/2013 18:16, John Diakogeorgiou wrote: Michael I don't agree with what you are suggesting. Why should Apple force a program which is of no use to the blind be forced to implaent accessibility features? On 11/11/13, Fred Olver goodfo...@charter.net wrote: instead of having a going nowhere discussion about this why don't you all who have such strong feelings express them to the apple accessibility folks. I believe their email address is accessibil...@apple.com Fred Olver - Original Message - From: David Chittenden dchitten...@gmail.com To: viphone@googlegroups.com Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:53 AM Subject: Re: different observation concerning When will Apple take this seriously I agree. Apple's iOS has created a system whereby we have a better than 50% chance that any app we purchase will be at least partially accessible. This is far better than any other platform on the market, whilst respecting the app developer's right to develop and sell any type of app which brings or enhances functionality to the iPhone. This is, indeed, the best system out there. Because we are not suing people, they are actually more willing to work collaboratively with us, and the developers who do not work with us usually have competition which is willing to work with us. As for the development of the gesture-based screen reader, it was well-known by everybody, including the NFB, that blind people would not be able to use a gesture-based screen reader. The standard proposals before VoiceOver came out on the iPhone 3 GS included some form of button-based tactile overlay which would be attached to the iPhone so blind people could successfully use it. As this topic relates directly to my research, if anyone has any credible source information that is different from the above (which all the literature I have located thus far fully supports), please send me the source citations so I can evaluate, and possibly use them. As for the NFB, I recall that organisation becoming rather upset at Apple a few years ago because Apple ignored requests from NFB for Apple to send a highly placed staff member to the NFB's national convention for a reward on behalf of the organised blind? As I understand it, this perceived snub of the NFB by Apple encouraged a series of comparisons between Apple and other products in the Braille Monitor which all demonstrated that Apple's accessibility was very much sub-par in comparison to these other devices. I would suggest you not pursue this line that the NFB had any influence over Apple, because I have a very strong suspicion that the NFB will not be shown in a very positive light if we examine the materials from that period of time. David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA Email: dchitten...@gmail.com Mobile: +64 21 2288 288 Sent from my iPhone On 12 Nov 2013, at 5:05, Ricardo Walker rwalker...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, Whoa!! Hold on a second. lol. The law suit you speak of was filed in 2006. By this time, Apple had already put out Mac OSX 10.4 Tiger which contained the Voiceover screen reader. The courts Ruled in favor of the NFB lead suit in September 2007. By this time, the iPhone had only been out 3 months. The actual settlement wrapped up in September 2008. By June 2009, Voiceover was on the new iPhone 3Gs. So where exactly in that timeline did the NFB have the time to turn their sites on Apples lack of accessibility? I think you might be overstating the NFB’s influence quite a bit here. I mean, since you said “fresh off” that would leave the NFB with only 8 months to turn their sights on Apple before Voiceover was introduced on the iPhone. So obviously, Voiceover and iOS 3.0 wasn’t developed in 8 months. The way Apple tells it, they had every intention of adding a screen reader to IOS. It took them over 2 years to actually come up with a multi touch gesture based screen reader. But with that aside, I think the word “partner” when speaking about Apple and developers of IOS Apps should be used loosely. I mean, there are literally tens of thousands of developers creating and supporting hundreds of thousands of apps. Apple has made the platform accessible, and has made literature easily available for developers to insure accessibility in their apps. In my opinion, Apple has done their job. It’s now up to us to interact with the developers like we’ve been doing to make sure accessibility is up to par. In my opinion, this model works. It’s
Re: different observation concerning When will Apple take this seriously
hmm, i'm not sure, we never know. Maybe Talks can handle Candy Crush and Pet Rescue or Solara on good old nokia N86? :P Joanne Chua The flip side of Inclusion is Exclusion. Leaders For Tomorrow 2013 Candidate Send from my iPad On 12 Nov 2013, at 6:19, Chris H christopher...@gmail.com wrote: Exactly. Would love to play Candy Crush, Pet Rescue Saga and all that, but to be honest they cannot be made accessible due to the nature of the games. Am jealous of my sighted peers though grin. E-mail Facebook and iMessage christopher...@gmail.com On 11/11/2013 18:16, John Diakogeorgiou wrote: Michael I don't agree with what you are suggesting. Why should Apple force a program which is of no use to the blind be forced to implaent accessibility features? On 11/11/13, Fred Olver goodfo...@charter.net wrote: instead of having a going nowhere discussion about this why don't you all who have such strong feelings express them to the apple accessibility folks. I believe their email address is accessibil...@apple.com Fred Olver - Original Message - From: David Chittenden dchitten...@gmail.com To: viphone@googlegroups.com Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:53 AM Subject: Re: different observation concerning When will Apple take this seriously I agree. Apple's iOS has created a system whereby we have a better than 50% chance that any app we purchase will be at least partially accessible. This is far better than any other platform on the market, whilst respecting the app developer's right to develop and sell any type of app which brings or enhances functionality to the iPhone. This is, indeed, the best system out there. Because we are not suing people, they are actually more willing to work collaboratively with us, and the developers who do not work with us usually have competition which is willing to work with us. As for the development of the gesture-based screen reader, it was well-known by everybody, including the NFB, that blind people would not be able to use a gesture-based screen reader. The standard proposals before VoiceOver came out on the iPhone 3 GS included some form of button-based tactile overlay which would be attached to the iPhone so blind people could successfully use it. As this topic relates directly to my research, if anyone has any credible source information that is different from the above (which all the literature I have located thus far fully supports), please send me the source citations so I can evaluate, and possibly use them. As for the NFB, I recall that organisation becoming rather upset at Apple a few years ago because Apple ignored requests from NFB for Apple to send a highly placed staff member to the NFB's national convention for a reward on behalf of the organised blind? As I understand it, this perceived snub of the NFB by Apple encouraged a series of comparisons between Apple and other products in the Braille Monitor which all demonstrated that Apple's accessibility was very much sub-par in comparison to these other devices. I would suggest you not pursue this line that the NFB had any influence over Apple, because I have a very strong suspicion that the NFB will not be shown in a very positive light if we examine the materials from that period of time. David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA Email: dchitten...@gmail.com Mobile: +64 21 2288 288 Sent from my iPhone On 12 Nov 2013, at 5:05, Ricardo Walker rwalker...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, Whoa!! Hold on a second. lol. The law suit you speak of was filed in 2006. By this time, Apple had already put out Mac OSX 10.4 Tiger which contained the Voiceover screen reader. The courts Ruled in favor of the NFB lead suit in September 2007. By this time, the iPhone had only been out 3 months. The actual settlement wrapped up in September 2008. By June 2009, Voiceover was on the new iPhone 3Gs. So where exactly in that timeline did the NFB have the time to turn their sites on Apples lack of accessibility? I think you might be overstating the NFB’s influence quite a bit here. I mean, since you said “fresh off” that would leave the NFB with only 8 months to turn their sights on Apple before Voiceover was introduced on the iPhone. So obviously, Voiceover and iOS 3.0 wasn’t developed in 8 months. The way Apple tells it, they had every intention of adding a screen reader to IOS. It took them over 2 years to actually come up with a multi touch gesture based screen reader. But with that aside, I think the word “partner” when speaking about Apple and developers of IOS Apps should be used loosely. I mean, there are literally tens of thousands of developers creating and supporting hundreds of thousands of apps. Apple has made the platform accessible, and has made literature easily available for developers to insure accessibility in their apps. In my opinion, Apple has done their job. It’s now up to us
Re: different observation concerning When will Apple take this seriously
LOL Seriously though, this would represent a dramatically more strenuous exertion on Apple's part as gatekeeper to the iOS ecosystem. Vetting all those app submissions for accessibility strikes me as a rather costly undertaking. Now I know the response is that you wouldn't expect them to screen ALL apps since there'd naturally be a great many, maybe even a majority that wouldn't be feasibly accessible, given the number of games and other graphically intensive apps out there; but who draws that line? How does a developer know ahead of time when his or her app will be subject to your accessibility requirement and when it will not? I would tend to agree with the general sentiment of the replies that the current state of affairs is actually rather good all things considered. Respectfully, Aser Tolentino, Esq. On Nov 11, 2013, at 13:53, Joanne Chua shuang.an...@gmail.com wrote: hmm, i'm not sure, we never know. Maybe Talks can handle Candy Crush and Pet Rescue or Solara on good old nokia N86? :P Joanne Chua The flip side of Inclusion is Exclusion. Leaders For Tomorrow 2013 Candidate Send from my iPad On 12 Nov 2013, at 6:19, Chris H christopher...@gmail.com wrote: Exactly. Would love to play Candy Crush, Pet Rescue Saga and all that, but to be honest they cannot be made accessible due to the nature of the games. Am jealous of my sighted peers though grin. E-mail Facebook and iMessage christopher...@gmail.com On 11/11/2013 18:16, John Diakogeorgiou wrote: Michael I don't agree with what you are suggesting. Why should Apple force a program which is of no use to the blind be forced to implaent accessibility features? On 11/11/13, Fred Olver goodfo...@charter.net wrote: instead of having a going nowhere discussion about this why don't you all who have such strong feelings express them to the apple accessibility folks. I believe their email address is accessibil...@apple.com Fred Olver - Original Message - From: David Chittenden dchitten...@gmail.com To: viphone@googlegroups.com Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:53 AM Subject: Re: different observation concerning When will Apple take this seriously I agree. Apple's iOS has created a system whereby we have a better than 50% chance that any app we purchase will be at least partially accessible. This is far better than any other platform on the market, whilst respecting the app developer's right to develop and sell any type of app which brings or enhances functionality to the iPhone. This is, indeed, the best system out there. Because we are not suing people, they are actually more willing to work collaboratively with us, and the developers who do not work with us usually have competition which is willing to work with us. As for the development of the gesture-based screen reader, it was well-known by everybody, including the NFB, that blind people would not be able to use a gesture-based screen reader. The standard proposals before VoiceOver came out on the iPhone 3 GS included some form of button-based tactile overlay which would be attached to the iPhone so blind people could successfully use it. As this topic relates directly to my research, if anyone has any credible source information that is different from the above (which all the literature I have located thus far fully supports), please send me the source citations so I can evaluate, and possibly use them. As for the NFB, I recall that organisation becoming rather upset at Apple a few years ago because Apple ignored requests from NFB for Apple to send a highly placed staff member to the NFB's national convention for a reward on behalf of the organised blind? As I understand it, this perceived snub of the NFB by Apple encouraged a series of comparisons between Apple and other products in the Braille Monitor which all demonstrated that Apple's accessibility was very much sub-par in comparison to these other devices. I would suggest you not pursue this line that the NFB had any influence over Apple, because I have a very strong suspicion that the NFB will not be shown in a very positive light if we examine the materials from that period of time. David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA Email: dchitten...@gmail.com Mobile: +64 21 2288 288 Sent from my iPhone On 12 Nov 2013, at 5:05, Ricardo Walker rwalker...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, Whoa!! Hold on a second. lol. The law suit you speak of was filed in 2006. By this time, Apple had already put out Mac OSX 10.4 Tiger which contained the Voiceover screen reader. The courts Ruled in favor of the NFB lead suit in September 2007. By this time, the iPhone had only been out 3 months. The actual settlement wrapped up in September 2008. By June 2009, Voiceover was on the new iPhone 3Gs. So where exactly in that timeline did the NFB have the time to turn their sites on Apples lack of accessibility? I think you might
Re: different observation concerning When will Apple take this seriously
It may be a good thing as I hear candy crush is very adicting. - Original Message - From: Chris H christopher...@gmail.com To: viphone@googlegroups.com Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 2:49 PM Subject: Re: different observation concerning When will Apple take this seriously Exactly. Would love to play Candy Crush, Pet Rescue Saga and all that, but to be honest they cannot be made accessible due to the nature of the games. Am jealous of my sighted peers though grin. E-mail Facebook and iMessage christopher...@gmail.com On 11/11/2013 18:16, John Diakogeorgiou wrote: Michael I don't agree with what you are suggesting. Why should Apple force a program which is of no use to the blind be forced to implaent accessibility features? On 11/11/13, Fred Olver goodfo...@charter.net wrote: instead of having a going nowhere discussion about this why don't you all who have such strong feelings express them to the apple accessibility folks. I believe their email address is accessibil...@apple.com Fred Olver - Original Message - From: David Chittenden dchitten...@gmail.com To: viphone@googlegroups.com Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:53 AM Subject: Re: different observation concerning When will Apple take this seriously I agree. Apple's iOS has created a system whereby we have a better than 50% chance that any app we purchase will be at least partially accessible. This is far better than any other platform on the market, whilst respecting the app developer's right to develop and sell any type of app which brings or enhances functionality to the iPhone. This is, indeed, the best system out there. Because we are not suing people, they are actually more willing to work collaboratively with us, and the developers who do not work with us usually have competition which is willing to work with us. As for the development of the gesture-based screen reader, it was well-known by everybody, including the NFB, that blind people would not be able to use a gesture-based screen reader. The standard proposals before VoiceOver came out on the iPhone 3 GS included some form of button-based tactile overlay which would be attached to the iPhone so blind people could successfully use it. As this topic relates directly to my research, if anyone has any credible source information that is different from the above (which all the literature I have located thus far fully supports), please send me the source citations so I can evaluate, and possibly use them. As for the NFB, I recall that organisation becoming rather upset at Apple a few years ago because Apple ignored requests from NFB for Apple to send a highly placed staff member to the NFB's national convention for a reward on behalf of the organised blind? As I understand it, this perceived snub of the NFB by Apple encouraged a series of comparisons between Apple and other products in the Braille Monitor which all demonstrated that Apple's accessibility was very much sub-par in comparison to these other devices. I would suggest you not pursue this line that the NFB had any influence over Apple, because I have a very strong suspicion that the NFB will not be shown in a very positive light if we examine the materials from that period of time. David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA Email: dchitten...@gmail.com Mobile: +64 21 2288 288 Sent from my iPhone On 12 Nov 2013, at 5:05, Ricardo Walker rwalker...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, Whoa!! Hold on a second. lol. The law suit you speak of was filed in 2006. By this time, Apple had already put out Mac OSX 10.4 Tiger which contained the Voiceover screen reader. The courts Ruled in favor of the NFB lead suit in September 2007. By this time, the iPhone had only been out 3 months. The actual settlement wrapped up in September 2008. By June 2009, Voiceover was on the new iPhone 3Gs. So where exactly in that timeline did the NFB have the time to turn their sites on Apples lack of accessibility? I think you might be overstating the NFB’s influence quite a bit here. I mean, since you said “fresh off” that would leave the NFB with only 8 months to turn their sights on Apple before Voiceover was introduced on the iPhone. So obviously, Voiceover and iOS 3.0 wasn’t developed in 8 months. The way Apple tells it, they had every intention of adding a screen reader to IOS. It took them over 2 years to actually come up with a multi touch gesture based screen reader. But with that aside, I think the word “partner” when speaking about Apple and developers of IOS Apps should be used loosely. I mean, there are literally tens of thousands of developers creating and supporting hundreds of thousands of apps. Apple has made the platform accessible, and has made literature easily available for developers to insure accessibility in their apps. In my opinion, Apple has done their job. It’s now up to us to interact with the developers like we’ve been doing to make sure
Re: different observation concerning When will Apple take this seriously
well, unless there is rules and regulations for developers and apps makers to follow, some sort of discrumination act in place that can agree upon internationally, if not, developers can contribute as much or as little as they wish when come to accessibility. Last time i check, Apple does not require their apps developers to be accessible, nor does Google or Microsoft. Even with the discrumination act, again, how can you require a Japanese games developer for some apps to follow American discruminate act? Developers already complain on Apple terms and condition and the developer policy, and things they need to follow to get a success submition on to Apple Appstore. I have a developer friend that told me they generally needing to waste 3 weeks on Apple App, compare to 3 to 5 days on Androy App. Joanne Chua The flip side of Inclusion is Exclusion. Leaders For Tomorrow 2013 Candidate Send from my iPad On 12 Nov 2013, at 8:50, Troy Sullivan troysulliva...@gmail.com wrote: It may be a good thing as I hear candy crush is very adicting. - Original Message - From: Chris H christopher...@gmail.com To: viphone@googlegroups.com Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 2:49 PM Subject: Re: different observation concerning When will Apple take this seriously Exactly. Would love to play Candy Crush, Pet Rescue Saga and all that, but to be honest they cannot be made accessible due to the nature of the games. Am jealous of my sighted peers though grin. E-mail Facebook and iMessage christopher...@gmail.com On 11/11/2013 18:16, John Diakogeorgiou wrote: Michael I don't agree with what you are suggesting. Why should Apple force a program which is of no use to the blind be forced to implaent accessibility features? On 11/11/13, Fred Olver goodfo...@charter.net wrote: instead of having a going nowhere discussion about this why don't you all who have such strong feelings express them to the apple accessibility folks. I believe their email address is accessibil...@apple.com Fred Olver - Original Message - From: David Chittenden dchitten...@gmail.com To: viphone@googlegroups.com Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:53 AM Subject: Re: different observation concerning When will Apple take this seriously I agree. Apple's iOS has created a system whereby we have a better than 50% chance that any app we purchase will be at least partially accessible. This is far better than any other platform on the market, whilst respecting the app developer's right to develop and sell any type of app which brings or enhances functionality to the iPhone. This is, indeed, the best system out there. Because we are not suing people, they are actually more willing to work collaboratively with us, and the developers who do not work with us usually have competition which is willing to work with us. As for the development of the gesture-based screen reader, it was well-known by everybody, including the NFB, that blind people would not be able to use a gesture-based screen reader. The standard proposals before VoiceOver came out on the iPhone 3 GS included some form of button-based tactile overlay which would be attached to the iPhone so blind people could successfully use it. As this topic relates directly to my research, if anyone has any credible source information that is different from the above (which all the literature I have located thus far fully supports), please send me the source citations so I can evaluate, and possibly use them. As for the NFB, I recall that organisation becoming rather upset at Apple a few years ago because Apple ignored requests from NFB for Apple to send a highly placed staff member to the NFB's national convention for a reward on behalf of the organised blind? As I understand it, this perceived snub of the NFB by Apple encouraged a series of comparisons between Apple and other products in the Braille Monitor which all demonstrated that Apple's accessibility was very much sub-par in comparison to these other devices. I would suggest you not pursue this line that the NFB had any influence over Apple, because I have a very strong suspicion that the NFB will not be shown in a very positive light if we examine the materials from that period of time. David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA Email: dchitten...@gmail.com Mobile: +64 21 2288 288 Sent from my iPhone On 12 Nov 2013, at 5:05, Ricardo Walker rwalker...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, Whoa!! Hold on a second. lol. The law suit you speak of was filed in 2006. By this time, Apple had already put out Mac OSX 10.4 Tiger which contained the Voiceover screen reader. The courts Ruled in favor of the NFB lead suit in September 2007. By this time, the iPhone had only been out 3 months. The actual settlement wrapped up in September 2008. By June 2009, Voiceover was on the new iPhone 3Gs. So where exactly in that timeline did the NFB have the time
