Re: [volt-nuts] Fluke 735C - Information Needed

2013-09-10 Thread J. L. Trantham
Same color scheme on the batteries in the 5315A.

Joe

-Original Message-
From: volt-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:volt-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Chuck Harris
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2013 10:30 PM
To: Discussion of precise voltage measurement
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] Fluke 735C - Information Needed

Nope, I was talking about GE and their early Nicads..

And, the cylindrical sealed LEAD acid cells were also originally
commercialized by GE.  They later spun off that division to became GATES.

I had an old SOLA UPS that was made in the mid 1960's that was full of GE
SLA's... The color scheme of the cells was exactly the same as the later
GATES cells.
(Black bottom, white top with red trim...)

and I had an old Sulzer 2.5A double oven oscillator that was full of the GE
Nicads from about 1960.

GE was big in battery research in the late 50's, early 60's.

I don't recall the exact order, but there is a big connection between GE,
Gould, and GATES batteries.

... both Nicads and SLA's.

-Chuck Harris

J. L. Trantham wrote:
> Chuck,
>
> Do you mean 'commercialize the cylindrical sealed LEAD cells'?  The 
> cylindrical cells in the 6 V battery that powers the HP 5315A is a 
> Gates IIRC.
>
> Joe
>
> -Original Message-
> From: volt-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:volt-nuts-boun...@febo.com] 
> On Behalf Of Chuck Harris
> Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2013 9:53 AM
> To: Discussion of precise voltage measurement
> Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] Fluke 735C - Information Needed
>
> As I recall, GE was first to commercialize the cylindrical sealed 
> Nicad cells.  They spun off their battery division to Gould, then to 
> GATES... or some such memory muddled permutation like that...
>
> -Chuck Harris
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Re: [volt-nuts] Fluke 735C - Information Needed

2013-09-10 Thread Chuck Harris

Nope, I was talking about GE and their early Nicads..

And, the cylindrical sealed LEAD acid cells were also
originally commercialized by GE.  They later spun off
that division to became GATES.

I had an old SOLA UPS that was made in the mid 1960's
that was full of GE SLA's... The color scheme of the
cells was exactly the same as the later GATES cells.
(Black bottom, white top with red trim...)

and I had an old Sulzer 2.5A double oven oscillator
that was full of the GE Nicads from about 1960.

GE was big in battery research in the late 50's, early
60's.

I don't recall the exact order, but there is a big
connection between GE, Gould, and GATES batteries.

... both Nicads and SLA's.

-Chuck Harris

J. L. Trantham wrote:

Chuck,

Do you mean 'commercialize the cylindrical sealed LEAD cells'?  The
cylindrical cells in the 6 V battery that powers the HP 5315A is a Gates
IIRC.

Joe

-Original Message-
From: volt-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:volt-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Chuck Harris
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2013 9:53 AM
To: Discussion of precise voltage measurement
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] Fluke 735C - Information Needed

As I recall, GE was first to commercialize the cylindrical sealed Nicad
cells.  They spun off their battery division to Gould, then to GATES... or
some such memory muddled permutation like that...

-Chuck Harris

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Re: [volt-nuts] Fluke 735C - Information Needed

2013-09-10 Thread J. L. Trantham
Chuck,

Do you mean 'commercialize the cylindrical sealed LEAD cells'?  The
cylindrical cells in the 6 V battery that powers the HP 5315A is a Gates
IIRC.

Joe

-Original Message-
From: volt-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:volt-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Chuck Harris
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2013 9:53 AM
To: Discussion of precise voltage measurement
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] Fluke 735C - Information Needed

As I recall, GE was first to commercialize the cylindrical sealed Nicad
cells.  They spun off their battery division to Gould, then to GATES... or
some such memory muddled permutation like that...

-Chuck Harris

gandal...@aol.com wrote:
> Ah well, I think that probably settles it then:-)
>
>
> In a message dated 10/09/2013 15:17:16 GMT Daylight Time, 
> jlt...@att.net
> writes:
>
> Nigel,
>
> All help appreciated.  I never knew about SLA  batteries in a 1/2 D 
> size looking like NiCd's.  I have seen 'packaged'  cylindrical SLA's 
> as used in the battery option HP 5315A but they are much  bigger than a
'D' cell.
>
> The cells certainly look like NiCd based on the  'corrosion' and 'exudate'
> they produced.  I have never seen an SLA do  that.
>
> In addition, they clearly say 'RECHARGEABLE NICKEL-CADMIUM  BATTERY' 
> in all caps, bold letters next to the 'GE'  trademark.
>
> Thanks again.
>
> Joe
>
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Re: [volt-nuts] Fluke 735C - Information Needed

2013-09-10 Thread Charles Steinmetz

Joe wrote:


I found 1.2 V 2.5 AH 1/2 D cells for $5.50 ea. On the internet.  I would
like to find a cheaper source since I need 20 of them, enough for two packs,
one pack on each side of the Battery PCB.


Available NiCds exhibit a huge range of quality.  Also, series 
strings last much better if the cells are matched for capacity and 
leakage.  The best results I've ever had with NiCds are with packs 
made up by SR Batteries (www.srbatteries.com/).  He carries extremely 
high quality cells and matches them for series packs.  I doubt his 
prices are the lowest, but you will not find better, longer-lasting 
packs than his.  Usual disclaimers.


Finally, you do NOT want to solder to NiCD cells -- welded tabs 
only.  I did a study for a client some years ago, which showed that 
soldering, even very quickly and carefully, had disastrous effects on 
NiCd battery life.



I wonder what would be better, SLA or NiCd's?  The NiCd's had 'spewed' and
corroded the PCB a bit but I have that cleaned up.  I have seen SLA's (in
UPS's) 'shrivel' and get very hot as they die.


The charging protocols are very different, so you are committed to 
what was there before unless you re-engineer the charging 
system.  Since even a repair to the 732A charging circuit, which is 
then adjusted to specification according to the manual, throws the 
unit out of calibration, changing the battery type and re-engineering 
a charger could have unfortunate effects on the standard's 
stability.  For practical purposes, you are probably committed to the 
NiCds that were there unless you are willing to install SLAs and 
clone the 732A charging circuit.


Best regards,

Charles



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Re: [volt-nuts] Fluke 735C - Information Needed

2013-09-10 Thread Tom Miller
Yeah but watch out for the ebay Chinese nicads. You might test a few samples 
before investing much in them. I have some 4/5 C cells that are marked 2500 
maH but test out at 1300 maH.


Tom

- Original Message - 
From: "Robert Atkinson" 

To: "Discussion of precise voltage measurement" 
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2013 2:21 PM
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] Fluke 735C - Information Needed


Hi,
Cell capacities have gone up. I'd buy four six cell (7.2V) 2500mAH model RC 
battery packs and break up as required. Smaller cells much cheaper and tags 
already welded.


Robert G8RPI.





From: J. L. Trantham 
To: 'Discussion of precise voltage measurement' 
Sent: Tuesday, 10 September 2013, 13:40
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] Fluke 735C - Information Needed


Charles,

The NiCd pack (of five 'units', side by side, with each 'unit' being two 1/2
D cells stacked on top of each other) is 12 V 2.2 AH, GE Cat. No. JF 479147
8249. I suspect the '8249' is a date code and they look original. The Cal
date was also Feb 82.

I found 1.2 V 2.5 AH 1/2 D cells for $5.50 ea. On the internet. I would
like to find a cheaper source since I need 20 of them, enough for two packs,
one pack on each side of the Battery PCB. I'll also need some 'thin' heat
shrink tubing to go around the 2 cell 'units'.

I could also use some 'spare' 1/2 D cells for the battery packs in my
5061A's and B's.

I wonder what would be better, SLA or NiCd's? The NiCd's had 'spewed' and
corroded the PCB a bit but I have that cleaned up. I have seen SLA's (in
UPS's) 'shrivel' and get very hot as they die.

I'll have to take a look at the 732A manual to see what it's battery
construction looks like.

Joe

-Original Message-
From: volt-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:volt-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Charles Steinmetz
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2013 11:10 PM
To: Discussion of precise voltage measurement
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] Fluke 735C - Information Needed

Joe wrote:


I need to fabricate a couple of 12 V NiCd battery packs using 1/2 D
cells


Does it have NiCds now? If so, do they look original? The 732A uses SLA
batteries (originally 4x 6v, but most folks replace them with 2x 12v). If
it has SLAs or gel cells (or originally did), you should replace them with
the same so the charger works properly.

Best regards,

Charles



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Re: [volt-nuts] Fluke 735C - Information Needed

2013-09-10 Thread Robert Atkinson
Hi,
Cell capacities have gone up. I'd buy four six cell (7.2V) 2500mAH model RC 
battery packs and break up as required.  Smaller cells much cheaper and tags 
already welded.

Robert G8RPI.





 From: J. L. Trantham 
To: 'Discussion of precise voltage measurement'  
Sent: Tuesday, 10 September 2013, 13:40
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] Fluke 735C - Information Needed
 

Charles,

The NiCd pack (of five 'units', side by side, with each 'unit' being two 1/2
D cells stacked on top of each other) is 12 V 2.2 AH,  GE Cat. No. JF 479147
8249.  I suspect the '8249' is a date code and they look original.  The Cal
date was also Feb 82.

I found 1.2 V 2.5 AH 1/2 D cells for $5.50 ea. On the internet.  I would
like to find a cheaper source since I need 20 of them, enough for two packs,
one pack on each side of the Battery PCB.  I'll also need some 'thin' heat
shrink tubing to go around the 2 cell 'units'.

I could also use some 'spare' 1/2 D cells for the battery packs in my
5061A's and B's.

I wonder what would be better, SLA or NiCd's?  The NiCd's had 'spewed' and
corroded the PCB a bit but I have that cleaned up.  I have seen SLA's (in
UPS's) 'shrivel' and get very hot as they die.

I'll have to take a look at the 732A manual to see what it's battery
construction looks like.

Joe

-Original Message-
From: volt-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:volt-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Charles Steinmetz
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2013 11:10 PM
To: Discussion of precise voltage measurement
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] Fluke 735C - Information Needed

Joe wrote:

>I need to fabricate a couple of 12 V NiCd battery packs using 1/2 D 
>cells

Does it have NiCds now?  If so, do they look original?  The 732A uses SLA
batteries (originally 4x 6v, but most folks replace them with 2x 12v).  If
it has SLAs or gel cells (or originally did), you should replace them with
the same so the charger works properly.

Best regards,

Charles



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Re: [volt-nuts] Fluke 735C - Information Needed

2013-09-10 Thread Will
>I posted this on the 6th and it appeared.
>It was answered once and I responded.
...
>I have a heavy couple of weeks coming up so it will
>likely be late September or early October before
>I get a chance to further investigate.

I guess you are not the only one who is busy at work. That could
explain the slow answering. And I already told pretty much all I
know...

The 735 prototypes were some sort of  "missing link" between the 731B
and the 732A. The project probably started as a "temperature
stabilized 731B" and the reference circuitry of the C version was
quite close to the commercial 732A.

>Do you have any 'specifications' or other documents about it?

I think the 735 series was an R&D project rather than a commercial
product. Someone who worked for Fluke could have something.

>The 'TH' resistance read about 8000 ohms (IIRC) and slowly
>came down as the unit 'warmed up'.  This AM it is about 3330 ohms.
>I'd love to know what the 'normal value' of this is at operating temperature.

3300 ohms => 50 - 55 C oven temperature. The actual value is not
important, if the resistance is stable the oven works as it should.

>The NiCd pack (of five 'units', side by side, with each 'unit' being
>two 1/2 D cells stacked on top of each other) is 12 V 2.2 AH

The charger circuitry could be closer to the 731B than the 732A...
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Re: [volt-nuts] Fluke 735C - Information Needed

2013-09-10 Thread Chuck Harris

As I recall, GE was first to commercialize the cylindrical sealed
Nicad cells.  They spun off their battery division to Gould, then
to GATES... or some such memory muddled permutation like that...

-Chuck Harris

gandal...@aol.com wrote:

Ah well, I think that probably settles it then:-)


In a message dated 10/09/2013 15:17:16 GMT Daylight Time, jlt...@att.net
writes:

Nigel,

All help appreciated.  I never knew about SLA  batteries in a 1/2 D size
looking like NiCd's.  I have seen 'packaged'  cylindrical SLA's as used in
the battery option HP 5315A but they are much  bigger than a 'D' cell.

The cells certainly look like NiCd based on the  'corrosion' and 'exudate'
they produced.  I have never seen an SLA do  that.

In addition, they clearly say 'RECHARGEABLE NICKEL-CADMIUM  BATTERY' in all
caps, bold letters next to the 'GE'  trademark.

Thanks again.

Joe


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Re: [volt-nuts] Fluke 735C - Information Needed

2013-09-10 Thread GandalfG8
Ah well, I think that probably settles it then:-)
 
 
In a message dated 10/09/2013 15:17:16 GMT Daylight Time, jlt...@att.net  
writes:

Nigel,

All help appreciated.  I never knew about SLA  batteries in a 1/2 D size
looking like NiCd's.  I have seen 'packaged'  cylindrical SLA's as used in
the battery option HP 5315A but they are much  bigger than a 'D' cell.

The cells certainly look like NiCd based on the  'corrosion' and 'exudate'
they produced.  I have never seen an SLA do  that.

In addition, they clearly say 'RECHARGEABLE NICKEL-CADMIUM  BATTERY' in all
caps, bold letters next to the 'GE'  trademark.

Thanks again.

Joe



-Original  Message-
From: volt-nuts-boun...@febo.com  [mailto:volt-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of gandal...@aol.com
Sent:  Tuesday, September 10, 2013 8:54 AM
To: volt-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re:  [volt-nuts] Fluke 735C - Information Needed

Not wanting to labour the  point, but just to be sure as I don't recognise
that part number, in the  80s GE did make cylindrical sealed lead  acid 
cells
under the brand  name "Cyclon" and these looked very similar  to Ni-Cads.

If the  cells themselves aren't clearly marked one obvious check is the
charging  circuit, basically constant voltage for lead acid and  constant
currrent  for  Ni-Cad.

Regards

Nigel
GM8PZR


In a message dated  10/09/2013 13:42:27 GMT Daylight Time,  jlt...@att.net
writes:

Charles,

The NiCd pack (of five  'units', side by side, with  each 'unit' being two
1/2
D cells  stacked on top of each other) is 12 V 2.2  AH,  GE Cat. No.  JF
479147
8249.  I suspect the '8249' is a date  code and they  look original.  The 
Cal
date was also Feb 82.

I  found 1.2  V 2.5 AH 1/2 D cells for $5.50 ea. On the internet.  I   would
like to find a cheaper source since I need 20 of them, enough for two  
packs,
one pack on each side of the Battery PCB.  I'll also need  some  'thin' heat
shrink tubing to go around the 2 cell  'units'.

I could  also use some 'spare' 1/2 D cells for the  battery packs in my
5061A's and  B's.

I wonder what would be  better, SLA or NiCd's?  The NiCd's had  'spewed' and
corroded the  PCB a bit but I have that cleaned up.  I  have seen SLA's  (in
UPS's) 'shrivel' and get very hot as they  die.

I'll have  to take a look at the 732A manual to see what it's   battery
construction looks like.

Joe

-Original   Message-
From: volt-nuts-boun...@febo.com   [mailto:volt-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Charles  Steinmetz
Sent:  Monday, September 09, 2013 11:10 PM
To: Discussion  of precise voltage  measurement
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] Fluke 735C -  Information  Needed

Joe wrote:

>I need to fabricate a  couple of 12 V NiCd  battery packs using 1/2 D 
>cells

Does  it have NiCds now?   If so, do they look original?  The 732A  uses SLA
batteries (originally  4x 6v, but most folks replace them  with 2x 12v).  If
it has SLAs or  gel cells (or originally did),  you should replace them with
the same so the  charger works  properly.

Best   regards,

Charles



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Re: [volt-nuts] Fluke 735C - Information Needed

2013-09-10 Thread J. L. Trantham
Nigel,

All help appreciated.  I never knew about SLA batteries in a 1/2 D size
looking like NiCd's.  I have seen 'packaged' cylindrical SLA's as used in
the battery option HP 5315A but they are much bigger than a 'D' cell.

The cells certainly look like NiCd based on the 'corrosion' and 'exudate'
they produced.  I have never seen an SLA do that.

In addition, they clearly say 'RECHARGEABLE NICKEL-CADMIUM BATTERY' in all
caps, bold letters next to the 'GE' trademark.

Thanks again.

Joe



-Original Message-
From: volt-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:volt-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of gandal...@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2013 8:54 AM
To: volt-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] Fluke 735C - Information Needed

Not wanting to labour the point, but just to be sure as I don't recognise
that part number, in the 80s GE did make cylindrical sealed lead  acid cells
under the brand name "Cyclon" and these looked very similar  to Ni-Cads.
 
If the cells themselves aren't clearly marked one obvious check is the
charging circuit, basically constant voltage for lead acid and constant
currrent  for Ni-Cad.
 
Regards
 
Nigel
GM8PZR
 
 
In a message dated 10/09/2013 13:42:27 GMT Daylight Time, jlt...@att.net
writes:

Charles,

The NiCd pack (of five 'units', side by side, with  each 'unit' being two
1/2
D cells stacked on top of each other) is 12 V 2.2  AH,  GE Cat. No. JF
479147
8249.  I suspect the '8249' is a date  code and they look original.  The Cal
date was also Feb 82.

I  found 1.2 V 2.5 AH 1/2 D cells for $5.50 ea. On the internet.  I  would
like to find a cheaper source since I need 20 of them, enough for two packs,
one pack on each side of the Battery PCB.  I'll also need some  'thin' heat
shrink tubing to go around the 2 cell 'units'.

I could  also use some 'spare' 1/2 D cells for the battery packs in my
5061A's and  B's.

I wonder what would be better, SLA or NiCd's?  The NiCd's had  'spewed' and
corroded the PCB a bit but I have that cleaned up.  I  have seen SLA's (in
UPS's) 'shrivel' and get very hot as they  die.

I'll have to take a look at the 732A manual to see what it's  battery
construction looks like.

Joe

-Original  Message-
From: volt-nuts-boun...@febo.com  [mailto:volt-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Charles Steinmetz
Sent:  Monday, September 09, 2013 11:10 PM
To: Discussion of precise voltage  measurement
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] Fluke 735C - Information  Needed

Joe wrote:

>I need to fabricate a couple of 12 V NiCd  battery packs using 1/2 D 
>cells

Does it have NiCds now?   If so, do they look original?  The 732A uses SLA
batteries (originally  4x 6v, but most folks replace them with 2x 12v).  If
it has SLAs or  gel cells (or originally did), you should replace them with
the same so the  charger works properly.

Best  regards,

Charles



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Re: [volt-nuts] Fluke 735C - Information Needed

2013-09-10 Thread GandalfG8
Not wanting to labour the point, but just to be sure as I don't recognise  
that part number, in the 80s GE did make cylindrical sealed lead  acid cells 
under the brand name "Cyclon" and these looked very similar  to Ni-Cads.
 
If the cells themselves aren't clearly marked one obvious check is the  
charging circuit, basically constant voltage for lead acid and constant 
currrent  for Ni-Cad.
 
Regards
 
Nigel
GM8PZR
 
 
In a message dated 10/09/2013 13:42:27 GMT Daylight Time, jlt...@att.net  
writes:

Charles,

The NiCd pack (of five 'units', side by side, with  each 'unit' being two 
1/2
D cells stacked on top of each other) is 12 V 2.2  AH,  GE Cat. No. JF 
479147
8249.  I suspect the '8249' is a date  code and they look original.  The Cal
date was also Feb 82.

I  found 1.2 V 2.5 AH 1/2 D cells for $5.50 ea. On the internet.  I  would
like to find a cheaper source since I need 20 of them, enough for two  
packs,
one pack on each side of the Battery PCB.  I'll also need some  'thin' heat
shrink tubing to go around the 2 cell 'units'.

I could  also use some 'spare' 1/2 D cells for the battery packs in my
5061A's and  B's.

I wonder what would be better, SLA or NiCd's?  The NiCd's had  'spewed' and
corroded the PCB a bit but I have that cleaned up.  I  have seen SLA's (in
UPS's) 'shrivel' and get very hot as they  die.

I'll have to take a look at the 732A manual to see what it's  battery
construction looks like.

Joe

-Original  Message-
From: volt-nuts-boun...@febo.com  [mailto:volt-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Charles Steinmetz
Sent:  Monday, September 09, 2013 11:10 PM
To: Discussion of precise voltage  measurement
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] Fluke 735C - Information  Needed

Joe wrote:

>I need to fabricate a couple of 12 V NiCd  battery packs using 1/2 D 
>cells

Does it have NiCds now?   If so, do they look original?  The 732A uses SLA
batteries (originally  4x 6v, but most folks replace them with 2x 12v).  If
it has SLAs or  gel cells (or originally did), you should replace them with
the same so the  charger works properly.

Best  regards,

Charles



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Re: [volt-nuts] Fluke 735C - Information Needed

2013-09-10 Thread J. L. Trantham
Charles,

The NiCd pack (of five 'units', side by side, with each 'unit' being two 1/2
D cells stacked on top of each other) is 12 V 2.2 AH,  GE Cat. No. JF 479147
8249.  I suspect the '8249' is a date code and they look original.  The Cal
date was also Feb 82.

I found 1.2 V 2.5 AH 1/2 D cells for $5.50 ea. On the internet.  I would
like to find a cheaper source since I need 20 of them, enough for two packs,
one pack on each side of the Battery PCB.  I'll also need some 'thin' heat
shrink tubing to go around the 2 cell 'units'.

I could also use some 'spare' 1/2 D cells for the battery packs in my
5061A's and B's.

I wonder what would be better, SLA or NiCd's?  The NiCd's had 'spewed' and
corroded the PCB a bit but I have that cleaned up.  I have seen SLA's (in
UPS's) 'shrivel' and get very hot as they die.

I'll have to take a look at the 732A manual to see what it's battery
construction looks like.

Joe

-Original Message-
From: volt-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:volt-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Charles Steinmetz
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2013 11:10 PM
To: Discussion of precise voltage measurement
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] Fluke 735C - Information Needed

Joe wrote:

>I need to fabricate a couple of 12 V NiCd battery packs using 1/2 D 
>cells

Does it have NiCds now?  If so, do they look original?  The 732A uses SLA
batteries (originally 4x 6v, but most folks replace them with 2x 12v).  If
it has SLAs or gel cells (or originally did), you should replace them with
the same so the charger works properly.

Best regards,

Charles



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