Re: [volt-nuts] DMM calibration
Joe, Sorry to be so late answering this post but I'm 'tied up' right now and can't get to all my data. However, I have sent DMM's to Agilent (3458A), Fluke (289 and 8846A), and Ametek - Solartron (7081). Agilent was for their 'Agilent Cal' and it included 'As Found' and 'As Left' data with 'adjustments' made for meters that were 'in cal' 'As Found'. Fluke was for their Z540 cal. On the 289, three types of data were offered, 'As Found', 'As Left', and 'As Found - As Left'. Both my 289's were 'in cal' and all I got back was 'As Found - As Left' and no adjustments were made. I can't recall what the 8846A was but I think it was for their Z540 cal, some measurements were out of cal, and adjustments were made. Ametek gave 'As Found', 'As Left', and both repairs and adjustments were made and included returning the replaced parts. Comparing these meters to each other, using a Fluke 335A, Fluke 5450A, EDC CR103J, and a Fluke 5100B, they are amazingly close. Therefore, I feel that these three companies provide a good service. I had occasion (as a result of 'killing' the NVRAM by trying to read it while still 'hot' from the removal process) to calibrate a 3458A using my recently calibrated 7081. I did not have a satisfactory AC source at the time and used a 3326A, Fluke 335A, and some standard resistors. I then sent the 3458A to Agilent and the 'As Found' data was all 'in cal' except for two of the 'mid-range' AC scales. Now that I have a Fluke 5100B, I think I could do a good job calibrating any meter by using my 3458A as a 'transfer standard'. I have also calibrated a 3478A that I managed to lose the NVRAM data on and it appears to be accurate as well. I have not sent it to Agilent though I have been thinking about doing that. Good luck. Joe -----Original Message- From: volt-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:volt-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Joseph Gray Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2013 11:30 AM To: Discussion of precise voltage measurement Subject: [volt-nuts] DMM calibration I just got the following quote for getting my HP 3478A calibrated. 35.00 for ISO 9001 no data 87.50 for Z540 with data and uncertainties 275.00 for 17025 with data, uncertainties and logo calibration. I still didn't get any explaination as to exactly what the lab does for each of these price points. When I asked about the "Level 4" listed next to the meter, I was told that it is the difficulty level. Still not telling me much. I have read the procedure in the HP service manual and it is very easy. You set some volt, amp, ohm values on the standard, then push some buttons on the meter. I understand about getting data or not, it is the other aspects that I don't understand. What is Z540, 17025 and "logo calibration"? Joe Gray W5JG ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] DMM calibration
I did some work for a resistor manufacture and was told about resistor drift. It does not keep going the same direction forever it does hit a limit and start back the other way. 4 years is just an approximation. The material and environment will have a lot to do with the period. Agilent burns in their voltage references and the main difference is how long they "cook" them. They also screen to get a better reference. evenhandedly the drift rate and amplitude drops. In a few hundred years things will be stable or broken. Broken is very stable. Like wire resistance will not keep going down till it hits 0 or up until it opens. Agilent says do not turn your 3458A off or it will not be as stable as if it has been running for years. Agilent move some reference manufacturing off shore, when the references met the stability numbers they were harvested and put in stock bins. Latter when they were used they no longer met the spec. There was a memo sent out that if you had one of these references its stability should be withing spec if the meter was not turned off for 6 mo. (that is how I remember it). ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] DMM calibration
On 8 August 2013 18:58, John Phillips wrote: > You will find that most old "stuff" does not drift as much as the new > "stuff". > Most resistors seem to drift in a damped sine wave rate with a period of > about 4 years. Is there any theory behind that? It's the first time I have heard of the 4 year damped sine wave! Dave ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] DMM calibration
You will find that most old "stuff" does not drift as much as the new "stuff". Most resistors seem to drift in a damped sine wave rate with a period of about 4 years. On Thu, Aug 8, 2013 at 10:10 AM, Didier Juges wrote: > I had my eBay special $90 HP3478A calibrated by our internal cal lab > (traceable to NIST). Based on the sticker, the last cal was 5 years old. > The instrument was well within all specs by a wide margin (most readings > were within 20% of the stated tolerance, which after 5 years is pretty good. > > Didier KO4BB > > Roy Phillips wrote: > > > > > >-Original Message- > >From: Electronics and Books > >Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2013 12:54 PM > >To: Discussion of precise voltage measurement > >Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] DMM calibration > > > >Specs for a 3478A > > > > > >Brand HP Model 3478A Counts 303.099 TrueRMS X Display LCD Year 1983 > >Range > >Stability [ppm] Low High Resolution 1y > >DC Volt 30m 300 100n 60 AC Volt 300m 300 1u 2000 Max Frequency 300k > > > >Resistance 30 30M 100u 160 DC Current 300m 3 1u 1500 AC Current > >300m 3 > >1u 7200 Interface GPIB Battery backup X > >If you do the adjustments with some hobby equipment wich an accuracy of > >say > >20 to 30 ppm. Thats all within limits of this multimeter. You never see > >the > >difference. > >In my opion, expensive adjustments and calibration for not so accurate > >equipment is a waste of money. Especialy when the calibration price > >exceeds > >the equipment price. > > > > > > > > > > > >Regards > > > > > >electronicsandbo...@yahoo.com > >http://ElectronicsAndBooks.com > > > >I would like to say - "you are absolutely correct" - I have recently > >been > >quoted for a 3458A which requires a new set of ROM's and re-cal. - the > >cost > >was greater than I paid for the S/H instrument just 4 years ago. These > >prices are OK for large Companies who can recover the VAT for a start ! > > > >. but cannot be justified for hobbyists. Most of us have items > >of > >equipment that have been calibrated in recent times, and other > >precision > >items like resistors and higher spec. zeners that when you make > >comparisons > >can verify your DVM's . I recently purchased a Keithley 2015 for less > >than > >some cal. charges, this was calibrated in 2008 and I would say that it > >is > >still in very good calibration now. > >Roy P > > > > > > > >From: "Marv @ Home" > >To: Discussion of precise voltage measurement ; > >Discussion of precise voltage measurement > >Sent: Wednesday, August 7, 2013 6:53 PM > >Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] DMM calibration > > > > > >I don't know what logo cal is, but between Z540 and 17025 is a > >question of procedures and how they are done. > >In metrology the procedures, and how strict they are, reduce the risk > >of uncertainty in the final measurement. For example, some > >procedures in Z540 can be 'interpreted' where in 17025 is explicit, > >thus there is more room in Z540 for one lab to be worse than another, > >or vice versa, which defeats the purpose of standardization. This > >'intepretation' is fairly reduced when the device is cal'd by an > >autocalibrator such for close case calibration DMMs, but becomes a > >big issue with any manual cal. > > > >If these do not mean anything to you and you do not need the data for > >long term drift calculations, ISO 9001 is good to go. > > > >IMHO the difference between all 3 is insignificant for 5.5 digit > >DMMs, except for one's need for data. > > > > > > > http://us.flukecal.com/literature/articles-and-education/temperature-calibration/papers-articles/comparison-ansincsl-z540-1?geoip=1 > > > >At 12:30 PM 8/7/2013, Joseph Gray wrote: > >>I just got the following quote for getting my HP 3478A calibrated. > >> > >>35.00 for ISO 9001 no data > >>87.50 for Z540 with data and uncertainties > >>275.00 for 17025 with data, uncertainties and logo calibration. > >> > >>I still didn't get any explaination as to exactly what the lab does > >for > >>each of these price points. When I asked about the "Level 4" listed > >next to > >>the meter, I was told that it is the difficulty level. Still not > >telling me > >>much. I have read the procedure in t
Re: [volt-nuts] DMM calibration
I had my eBay special $90 HP3478A calibrated by our internal cal lab (traceable to NIST). Based on the sticker, the last cal was 5 years old. The instrument was well within all specs by a wide margin (most readings were within 20% of the stated tolerance, which after 5 years is pretty good. Didier KO4BB Roy Phillips wrote: > > >-Original Message- >From: Electronics and Books >Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2013 12:54 PM >To: Discussion of precise voltage measurement >Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] DMM calibration > >Specs for a 3478A > > >Brand HP Model 3478A Counts 303.099 TrueRMS X Display LCD Year 1983 >Range >Stability [ppm] Low High Resolution 1y >DC Volt 30m 300 100n 60 AC Volt 300m 300 1u 2000 Max Frequency 300k > >Resistance 30 30M 100u 160 DC Current 300m 3 1u 1500 AC Current >300m 3 >1u 7200 Interface GPIB Battery backup X >If you do the adjustments with some hobby equipment wich an accuracy of >say >20 to 30 ppm. Thats all within limits of this multimeter. You never see >the >difference. >In my opion, expensive adjustments and calibration for not so accurate >equipment is a waste of money. Especialy when the calibration price >exceeds >the equipment price. > > > > > >Regards > > >electronicsandbo...@yahoo.com >http://ElectronicsAndBooks.com > >I would like to say - "you are absolutely correct" - I have recently >been >quoted for a 3458A which requires a new set of ROM's and re-cal. - the >cost >was greater than I paid for the S/H instrument just 4 years ago. These >prices are OK for large Companies who can recover the VAT for a start ! > >. but cannot be justified for hobbyists. Most of us have items >of >equipment that have been calibrated in recent times, and other >precision >items like resistors and higher spec. zeners that when you make >comparisons >can verify your DVM's . I recently purchased a Keithley 2015 for less >than >some cal. charges, this was calibrated in 2008 and I would say that it >is >still in very good calibration now. >Roy P > > >____________ >From: "Marv @ Home" >To: Discussion of precise voltage measurement ; >Discussion of precise voltage measurement >Sent: Wednesday, August 7, 2013 6:53 PM >Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] DMM calibration > > >I don't know what logo cal is, but between Z540 and 17025 is a >question of procedures and how they are done. >In metrology the procedures, and how strict they are, reduce the risk >of uncertainty in the final measurement. For example, some >procedures in Z540 can be 'interpreted' where in 17025 is explicit, >thus there is more room in Z540 for one lab to be worse than another, >or vice versa, which defeats the purpose of standardization. This >'intepretation' is fairly reduced when the device is cal'd by an >autocalibrator such for close case calibration DMMs, but becomes a >big issue with any manual cal. > >If these do not mean anything to you and you do not need the data for >long term drift calculations, ISO 9001 is good to go. > >IMHO the difference between all 3 is insignificant for 5.5 digit >DMMs, except for one's need for data. > > >http://us.flukecal.com/literature/articles-and-education/temperature-calibration/papers-articles/comparison-ansincsl-z540-1?geoip=1 > >At 12:30 PM 8/7/2013, Joseph Gray wrote: >>I just got the following quote for getting my HP 3478A calibrated. >> >>35.00 for ISO 9001 no data >>87.50 for Z540 with data and uncertainties >>275.00 for 17025 with data, uncertainties and logo calibration. >> >>I still didn't get any explaination as to exactly what the lab does >for >>each of these price points. When I asked about the "Level 4" listed >next to >>the meter, I was told that it is the difficulty level. Still not >telling me >>much. I have read the procedure in the HP service manual and it is >very >>easy. You set some volt, amp, ohm values on the standard, then push >some >>buttons on the meter. >> >>I understand about getting data or not, it is the other aspects that I >>don't understand. What is Z540, 17025 and "logo calibration"? >> >> >>Joe Gray >>W5JG > > > >Sincerely, > > > >Marv >Philadelphia, PA > >___ >volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to >https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts >and follow the instructions there. >___ >volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.c
Re: [volt-nuts] DMM calibration
-Original Message- From: Electronics and Books Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2013 12:54 PM To: Discussion of precise voltage measurement Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] DMM calibration Specs for a 3478A Brand HP Model 3478A Counts 303.099 TrueRMS X Display LCD Year 1983 Range Stability [ppm] Low High Resolution 1y DC Volt 30m 300 100n 60 AC Volt 300m 300 1u 2000 Max Frequency 300k Resistance 30 30M 100u 160 DC Current 300m 3 1u 1500 AC Current 300m 3 1u 7200 Interface GPIB Battery backup X If you do the adjustments with some hobby equipment wich an accuracy of say 20 to 30 ppm. Thats all within limits of this multimeter. You never see the difference. In my opion, expensive adjustments and calibration for not so accurate equipment is a waste of money. Especialy when the calibration price exceeds the equipment price. Regards electronicsandbo...@yahoo.com http://ElectronicsAndBooks.com I would like to say - "you are absolutely correct" - I have recently been quoted for a 3458A which requires a new set of ROM's and re-cal. - the cost was greater than I paid for the S/H instrument just 4 years ago. These prices are OK for large Companies who can recover the VAT for a start ! . but cannot be justified for hobbyists. Most of us have items of equipment that have been calibrated in recent times, and other precision items like resistors and higher spec. zeners that when you make comparisons can verify your DVM's . I recently purchased a Keithley 2015 for less than some cal. charges, this was calibrated in 2008 and I would say that it is still in very good calibration now. Roy P From: "Marv @ Home" To: Discussion of precise voltage measurement ; Discussion of precise voltage measurement Sent: Wednesday, August 7, 2013 6:53 PM Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] DMM calibration I don't know what logo cal is, but between Z540 and 17025 is a question of procedures and how they are done. In metrology the procedures, and how strict they are, reduce the risk of uncertainty in the final measurement. For example, some procedures in Z540 can be 'interpreted' where in 17025 is explicit, thus there is more room in Z540 for one lab to be worse than another, or vice versa, which defeats the purpose of standardization. This 'intepretation' is fairly reduced when the device is cal'd by an autocalibrator such for close case calibration DMMs, but becomes a big issue with any manual cal. If these do not mean anything to you and you do not need the data for long term drift calculations, ISO 9001 is good to go. IMHO the difference between all 3 is insignificant for 5.5 digit DMMs, except for one's need for data. http://us.flukecal.com/literature/articles-and-education/temperature-calibration/papers-articles/comparison-ansincsl-z540-1?geoip=1 At 12:30 PM 8/7/2013, Joseph Gray wrote: I just got the following quote for getting my HP 3478A calibrated. 35.00 for ISO 9001 no data 87.50 for Z540 with data and uncertainties 275.00 for 17025 with data, uncertainties and logo calibration. I still didn't get any explaination as to exactly what the lab does for each of these price points. When I asked about the "Level 4" listed next to the meter, I was told that it is the difficulty level. Still not telling me much. I have read the procedure in the HP service manual and it is very easy. You set some volt, amp, ohm values on the standard, then push some buttons on the meter. I understand about getting data or not, it is the other aspects that I don't understand. What is Z540, 17025 and "logo calibration"? Joe Gray W5JG Sincerely, Marv Philadelphia, PA ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] DMM calibration
Specs for a 3478A Brand HP Model 3478A Counts 303.099 TrueRMS X Display LCD Year 1983 Range Stability [ppm] Low High Resolution 1y DC Volt 30m 300 100n 60 AC Volt 300m 300 1u 2000 Max Frequency 300k Resistance 30 30M 100u 160 DC Current 300m 3 1u 1500 AC Current 300m 3 1u 7200 Interface GPIB Battery backup X If you do the adjustments with some hobby equipment wich an accuracy of say 20 to 30 ppm. Thats all within limits of this multimeter. You never see the difference. In my opion, expensive adjustments and calibration for not so accurate equipment is a waste of money. Especialy when the calibration price exceeds the equipment price. Regards electronicsandbo...@yahoo.com http://ElectronicsAndBooks.com From: "Marv @ Home" To: Discussion of precise voltage measurement ; Discussion of precise voltage measurement Sent: Wednesday, August 7, 2013 6:53 PM Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] DMM calibration I don't know what logo cal is, but between Z540 and 17025 is a question of procedures and how they are done. In metrology the procedures, and how strict they are, reduce the risk of uncertainty in the final measurement. For example, some procedures in Z540 can be 'interpreted' where in 17025 is explicit, thus there is more room in Z540 for one lab to be worse than another, or vice versa, which defeats the purpose of standardization. This 'intepretation' is fairly reduced when the device is cal'd by an autocalibrator such for close case calibration DMMs, but becomes a big issue with any manual cal. If these do not mean anything to you and you do not need the data for long term drift calculations, ISO 9001 is good to go. IMHO the difference between all 3 is insignificant for 5.5 digit DMMs, except for one's need for data. http://us.flukecal.com/literature/articles-and-education/temperature-calibration/papers-articles/comparison-ansincsl-z540-1?geoip=1 At 12:30 PM 8/7/2013, Joseph Gray wrote: >I just got the following quote for getting my HP 3478A calibrated. > >35.00 for ISO 9001 no data >87.50 for Z540 with data and uncertainties >275.00 for 17025 with data, uncertainties and logo calibration. > >I still didn't get any explaination as to exactly what the lab does for >each of these price points. When I asked about the "Level 4" listed next to >the meter, I was told that it is the difficulty level. Still not telling me >much. I have read the procedure in the HP service manual and it is very >easy. You set some volt, amp, ohm values on the standard, then push some >buttons on the meter. > >I understand about getting data or not, it is the other aspects that I >don't understand. What is Z540, 17025 and "logo calibration"? > > >Joe Gray >W5JG Sincerely, Marv Philadelphia, PA ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] DMM calibration
I don't know what logo cal is, but between Z540 and 17025 is a question of procedures and how they are done. In metrology the procedures, and how strict they are, reduce the risk of uncertainty in the final measurement. For example, some procedures in Z540 can be 'interpreted' where in 17025 is explicit, thus there is more room in Z540 for one lab to be worse than another, or vice versa, which defeats the purpose of standardization. This 'intepretation' is fairly reduced when the device is cal'd by an autocalibrator such for close case calibration DMMs, but becomes a big issue with any manual cal. If these do not mean anything to you and you do not need the data for long term drift calculations, ISO 9001 is good to go. IMHO the difference between all 3 is insignificant for 5.5 digit DMMs, except for one's need for data. http://us.flukecal.com/literature/articles-and-education/temperature-calibration/papers-articles/comparison-ansincsl-z540-1?geoip=1 At 12:30 PM 8/7/2013, Joseph Gray wrote: I just got the following quote for getting my HP 3478A calibrated. 35.00 for ISO 9001 no data 87.50 for Z540 with data and uncertainties 275.00 for 17025 with data, uncertainties and logo calibration. I still didn't get any explaination as to exactly what the lab does for each of these price points. When I asked about the "Level 4" listed next to the meter, I was told that it is the difficulty level. Still not telling me much. I have read the procedure in the HP service manual and it is very easy. You set some volt, amp, ohm values on the standard, then push some buttons on the meter. I understand about getting data or not, it is the other aspects that I don't understand. What is Z540, 17025 and "logo calibration"? Joe Gray W5JG Sincerely, Marv Philadelphia, PA ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[volt-nuts] DMM calibration
I just got the following quote for getting my HP 3478A calibrated. 35.00 for ISO 9001 no data 87.50 for Z540 with data and uncertainties 275.00 for 17025 with data, uncertainties and logo calibration. I still didn't get any explaination as to exactly what the lab does for each of these price points. When I asked about the "Level 4" listed next to the meter, I was told that it is the difficulty level. Still not telling me much. I have read the procedure in the HP service manual and it is very easy. You set some volt, amp, ohm values on the standard, then push some buttons on the meter. I understand about getting data or not, it is the other aspects that I don't understand. What is Z540, 17025 and "logo calibration"? Joe Gray W5JG ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
