Re: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE

[Brian Ahern]

Bob, I like the path you ave taken. I have possesion of the actuak billet that 
worked for two years.


I did not take the Manelas measurements lightly. I had two other talented 
engineers set up and record the data. We had complete control.



From: bobcook39...@gmail.com 
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2017 11:25 AM
To: Chris Zell; vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE


Brian—



I also thought there might be a connection between the Manelas device and 
Dragone theory.  Again the possibility of reversal of the 2nd Law of T/D is 
very interesting.



One thought I had was the orbital spin quanta are involved since in a coherent 
system they are limited to changing one quanta at a time IMHO.  This 
restriction may somehow effect the reversal noted above to create more order in 
the crystal structures (grains) weakly coupled in the Manelas device.  Small 
phase changes of the crystals may constitute such reordering that leads to a 
nuclear  transition of greater stability.  The temperature differential is then 
used to make a useful voltage.



Bob Cook



From: Chris Zell
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2017 8:05 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE



If I google “phonons as an energy source”, nothing in particular comes up.  If 
we are identifying them as the likely source of excess energy within a 
barium/strontium ferrite structure,  I would think that someone somewhere has 
thought about cohering them into useful energy.  So, we create a particular 
motion that gives us a gain from ‘straightening out’ random motion..?



From: Brian Ahern [mailto:ahern_br...@msn.com]
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2017 10:06 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE





I am intrigued by the Dragone stuff. It seems very close to Manelas, which I 
thoroughly tested in2012.



From: Chris Zell >
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2017 9:41 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE



http://rexresearch.com/maccanti/maccanti.htm

Giampaolo Maccanti -- alleged free energy 
generator

rexresearch.com

Energia Celeste S.R.L. 17 Seprember 1998 Abstract--- Electromagnetic device 
(100), particularly to be used as a generator, for example of ...






As Dragone seems to be talking about an effect which appears during attraction, 
I wonder about the overunity claims of the Maccanti device.



From: bobcook39...@gmail.com 
[mailto:bobcook39...@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2017 9:35 AM
To: MJ >; 
vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE



Dragone discussed the idea of decreasing entropy (increasing order of matter) 
as a an effect of the magnetic device he described.  That may include better 
nuclear order.



Another interesting item is the assessment of the Dragone document.



http://www.intalek.com/Index/Projects/Research/DragoneAnalysis.pdf

Analysis of Leon Dragone's paper by William 
Alek

www.intalek.com

Analysis of Leon Dragone's, "Energetics of Ferromagnetism" By William S. Alek 
INTALEK, INC. November 2002 Version 5a






Bob Cook

From: MJ
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 3:25 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE



Leon Dragone also observed the cooling effect related to magnetism:


http://exvacuo.free.fr/div/Sciences/Dossiers/EM/Leon%20Dragone%20-%20Energetics%20of%20Ferromagnetism.pdf

Mark Jordan


On 16-Feb-17 19:42, David Roberson wrote:

When a hot object radiates IR into space the temperature also drops.  Perhaps 
there is a low frequency form of magnetic coupling that can be encouraged to do 
a similar thing.  According to my observations there seems to be a method 
available to convert energy among the different forms under most conditions.

Dave







-Original Message-
From: Chris Zell 
To: vortex-l 
Sent: Thu, Feb 16, 2017 3:02 pm
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE

If a specially shaped magnetic field can drop the temperature of an apparatus, 
shouldn’t we conclude that random motion (heat) is somehow being converted into 
directed, useful motion?  That Maxwell’s Demon has been found?

[Vo]:Penon described the position of flow meter

[Jed Rothwell]

There has been some discussion here about the position of the flow meter in
Rossi's configuration. I have information from Rossi showing it was located
in the gravity return between the customer site and the reservoir. I do not
think there was a U pipe but I cannot rule that out 100%. Nothing like that
is shown and no one who was there told me there is one -- and I did ask.
Anyway, Abd pointed out that Penon described the configuration in one of
the lawsuit documents. It is a little hard to understand Penon's English,
so Abd added the comments in square brackets:

Quote

The steam is then passed through the customer’s facility, where it cools up
> to its condensation. *
>
> – flowmeter for measuring the flow rate of cooling water inlet into the
> shelter. It is located along the line of return of the water. between the
> Plant of the Customer and the 1 MW E-Cat.



> The cooling water is contained in a tank, placed inside the Plant, that
> receives the water from an external plant [sic, “tank”].
>


> It is conveyed by pumps in [sic, “into”] the unit’s E-cat[s], where it is
> heated to vaporize. The steam is collected in one tube of the steam line,
> which conveys it to the outside of the shelter.
>


> The water is so recycled to the internal [sic, external] tank in a closed
> loop. The water is distilled water.
>


> The external tank is connected with the internal tank, by a water line and
> a floating valve, so that the level of water inside the internal tank is
> maintained constant. The water flows from the external tank to the internal
> tank by gravity. […]
>


* Note from Jed: "Cools up to its condensation" means it cools down until
it condenses.

This contradicts assertions by Peter Gluck.

- Jed

RE: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE

[bobcook39923]

If the nuclear potential energy source is tapped, then that would greatly 
supplement the latent heat which is the phonic energy you note.

Bob

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Chris Zell
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2017 11:55 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE



From: bobcook39...@gmail.com [mailto:bobcook39...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2017 1:56 PM
To: Chris Zell ; vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE

Chris-

I have understood that phonons are “virtual” particles that represent a 
localized energy in a crystal lattice made up of kinetic energy and potential 
energy in a resonant stable dynamic state.  It is primarily thought to be an 
electric field that couples the nuclei and electrons in the lattice—primarily 
the valence electrons.  The nuclei oscillate around some mid position in the 
lattice and valence  electrons change their orbital spin states reflecting the 
motion of the nuclei.  

What confuses me about that explanation is the energy of the ‘jitter’ of the 
nuclei and heat.  Are they the same thing or somehow different? If the same,  
then the excess energy claimed can only be no more greater than some part of 
the latent heat of the slab/object – and not some earthshaking vortex swirl as 
reported by Sweet.

[Vo]:automation and its economics effects

[Ron Wormus]

This is fairly interesting.  The video at the end is fascinating:


https://medium.freecodecamp.com/bill-gates-and-elon-musk-just-warned-us-about-the-one-thing-politicians-are-too-scared-to-talk-8db9815fd398#.46edoyjxi
Ron

Re: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE

[Jones Beene]

Chris Zell wrote:

... and if the Stromerzeuger device could be replicated, we’d all be in 
fat city.


Replication requires a specialty iron for the many magnetic solenoids. 
That purity of iron is not being made these days but it was available 
back then from Sweden. It might be possible to buy ultrapure iron now 
but it would be expensive to get hold of kilograms. I would not be 
surprised to learn that a few groups are trying to replicate - who are 
under the radar.


Side note: When pure iron is produced which is carbon free at "5 nines" 
purity (99.999 %) it is as electrically conductive as standard copper 
wire and extremely soft - softer than pure aluminum. The physical 
properties change so drastically that it hardly resembles what we think 
of as "iron" which is normally a carbide.


Ultrapure iron is required for the cores because the electrical circuit 
actually loops back and goes through the inductive core (as a conductor) 
which is supposedly where the gain is happening !


"Larmor precession" can be used to accelerate electrons, and apparently 
precession is one of the mechanism being exploited . The relevant 
formulas are found here

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/magnetic/larmor.html

The Larmor frequency is so high for the electron that it is not clear 
how Coler was able to achieve it 70 years ago. It should be easier to 
replicate now if the pure iron is found. Some have speculated that Coler 
stumbled on a type of Gunn effect due to the size of the cores which are 
about the correct cavity for GHz operation. That could be coincidental.

[Vo]:LENR Theoryplex, discussions some info

[Peter Gluck]

http://egooutpeters.blogspot.ro/2017/02/feb-20-2017-lenr-theoryplex-discussions.html

peter
-- 
Dr. Peter Gluck
Cluj, Romania
http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com

RE: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE

[Chris Zell]

(thinking this through…….)   If you attribute the excess energy to a withdrawal 
from electron spins….. does conservation of energy apply? I recall an article 
in Infinite Energy magazine in which physics, as taught, seems to do a 
‘workaround’ as to spin energy when calculations are done – causing a young 
physics student to abandon the class after he observed this (!!).

RE: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE

[Chris Zell]

Has Cyril Smith or anybody ever replicated the Coler devices?  I’ve never heard 
of that happening – and if the Stromzeuger device could be replicated, we’d all 
be in fat city.

RE: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE

[Chris Zell]

From: bobcook39...@gmail.com [mailto:bobcook39...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2017 1:56 PM
To: Chris Zell ; vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE

Chris-

I have understood that phonons are “virtual” particles that represent a 
localized energy in a crystal lattice made up of kinetic energy and potential 
energy in a resonant stable dynamic state.  It is primarily thought to be an 
electric field that couples the nuclei and electrons in the lattice—primarily 
the valence electrons.  The nuclei oscillate around some mid position in the 
lattice and valence  electrons change their orbital spin states reflecting the 
motion of the nuclei.

What confuses me about that explanation is the energy of the ‘jitter’ of the 
nuclei and heat.  Are they the same thing or somehow different? If the same,  
then the excess energy claimed can only be no more greater than some part of 
the latent heat of the slab/object – and not some earthshaking vortex swirl as 
reported by Sweet.

Re: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE

[Jones Beene]

And there is yet another level of sadness in the more general subject of 
"battery powered circuits" especially when these are found in a 
situation of mixed AC and DC which is the situation where nearly instant 
recharge can be engineered by parameters such as pulse width.


It is possible that gain in a Manelas type device (which admittedly is 
not proved beyond a shadow of doubt) is happening in two linked places 
as a coordinated effect. One of the places is the battery itself and 
moreover, the gain in the billet does not happen without the gain in 
battery. They are linked. The reason for that is the two types of charge 
carriers and BEMF.


In batteries, the charge carrier is a heavy positive ion (heavy relative 
to the electron). In the magnetic circuit the charge carrier is the 
electron. The interplay of two dissimilar charge carriers has been said 
to be the source of gain when each is optimized. The lithium ion has 
more momentum than the electron when set in motion; but the BEMF from 
electrons will effectively reverse ion motion, which can provide instant 
recharge if the pulse width is optimized.


In short, if you look at the two types of carriers, the charge is the 
same but the ratio of momentum to charge varies several thousand fold. 
Plus, any battery is severely underrated in terms of usable chemical 
energy even without the instant recharge capability of an adjoining circuit.


I have been in touch for years with Cyril Smith, who has mastered the 
understanding of a similar device which uses magnets and batteries 
together - which reportedly worked for the Nazi during WWll according to 
reliable evidence. It is called the Coler Stromerzeuger, but that is 
fodder for another day. For German speakers:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbYbiLXT7GY=1


 Chris Zell wrote:


That is sad.   I recall that what you are describing sounds exactly 
the same as the situation with the Correa device. The best he do was 
to swap battery packs again and again to show gain – but it seems that 
as soon as you introduce a battery pack into any such claim, disbelief 
arises.


*From:*Jones Beene

Unfortunately, the bullet-proof case for net energy gain was not made 
at the time. There is apparent gain, but not proved gain.


Brian Ahern ran the test for many days using a very high capacity 
battery array. At the end of the test, the battery pack appeared to be 
fully charged, but there's the rub "appeared to be".


LIPO batteries are well-known to present a pseudo voltage which is 
higher than the average voltage, especially in a case where HV BMEF is 
present ... and thus a large pack which seems fully charged could in 
fact have lost a great deal of charge. That is because measuring the 
voltage is the easy way to determine state of charge, and when it is 
known that pseudo-voltage happens, the results cannot be relied on.


Bottom line. Although we want want to think the battery pack was fully 
charged, the deal was not closed and doubt remains.

RE: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE

[bobcook39923]

Chris-

I have understood that phonons are “virtual” particles that represent a 
localized energy in a crystal lattice made up of kinetic energy and potential 
energy in a resonant stable dynamic state.  It is primarily thought to be an 
electric field that couples the nuclei and electrons in the lattice—primarily 
the valence electrons.  The nuclei oscillate around some mid position in the 
lattice and valence  electrons change their orbital spin states reflecting the 
motion of the nuclei.  

Temperature of the crystal lattice is a measure of the amplitude of the nuclei 
special displacement around their mid position in the lattice.  If the crystal 
constitutes a coherent QM system, then all nuclei vibrate with the same 
amplitude and the crystal is at a single temperature.  If the amplitude 
(temperature) get to high, the crystal electronic bonds fail and the order of 
the crystalline coherent system is lost.

Magnetic fields change the nature of the potential/kinetic energy sharing.  A 
preferred direction in the crystal is created relative to the magnetic B field 
that exists within the crystalline coherent system.  The orbital spin energy 
states of the valence electrons are modified.  Large B fields can cause large 
changes in these orbital spin states.  If there are resonances between a 
nuclear orbital spin state of the coherent system and an electronic orbital 
spin state, it would seem possible that spin energy may be swapped, changing 
nuclear potential energy into PHONIC  energy of the crystalline coherent 
system.  

A variable B field induced by a variable ambient H magnetic field will create a 
universe of differing spin energy states each with a small difference in it 
angular momentum.  If total angular momentum can be conserved, IMHO A 
TRANSITION WILL OCCUR. 

It may be also possible that the transition is reversible.  In such case a 
reduction of the temperature—lower electron orbital energy—would be the result. 
 (Such a reversal suggests a new concept of temperature, one which shares 
potential and kinetic energy between nuclear entities and electrons. )

Bob Cook




Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Chris Zell
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2017 9:35 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE

I do recall Wingate Lambertson  - a scientist/expert on cermet products.  Odd 
semi-ceramic things he called “E-dams” that generated excess energy.  I recall 
that he passed away before it could be fully developed.   It all sounded like 
phonon derived energy.

From: Jones Beene [mailto:jone...@pacbell.net] 
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2017 11:14 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE


 Chris Zell wrote:
If I google “phonons as an energy source”, nothing in particular comes up.  If 
we are identifying them as the likely source of excess energy within a 
barium/strontium ferrite structure,  I would think that someone somewhere has 
thought about cohering them into useful energy.  


But if you google "Microelectromechanical systems" you will get 750,000 hits.

RE: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE

[Chris Zell]

That is sad.   I recall that what you are describing sounds exactly the same as 
the situation with the Correa device.  The best he do was to swap battery packs 
again and again to show gain – but it seems that as soon as you introduce a 
battery pack into any such claim, disbelief arises.



From: Jones Beene [mailto:jone...@pacbell.net]
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2017 1:10 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE

Unfortunately, the bullet-proof case for net energy gain was not made at the 
time. There is apparent gain, but not proved gain.

Brian Ahern ran the test for many days using a very high capacity battery 
array. At the end of the test, the battery pack appeared to be fully charged, 
but there's the rub "appeared to be".

LIPO batteries are well-known to present a pseudo voltage which is higher than 
the average voltage, especially in a case where HV BMEF is present ... and thus 
a large pack which seems fully charged could in fact have lost a great deal of 
charge. That is because measuring the voltage is the easy way to determine 
state of charge, and when it is known that pseudo-voltage happens, the results 
cannot be relied on.

Bottom line. Although we want want to think the battery pack was fully charged, 
the deal was not closed and doubt remains.

Re: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE

[Jones Beene]

Unfortunately, the bullet-proof case for net energy gain was not made at 
the time. There is apparent gain, but not proved gain.


Brian Ahern ran the test for many days using a very high capacity 
battery array. At the end of the test, the battery pack appeared to be 
fully charged, but there's the rub "appeared to be".


LIPO batteries are well-known to present a pseudo voltage which is 
higher than the average voltage, especially in a case where HV BMEF is 
present ... and thus a large pack which seems fully charged could in 
fact have lost a great deal of charge. That is because measuring the 
voltage is the easy way to determine state of charge, and when it is 
known that pseudo-voltage happens, the results cannot be relied on.


Bottom line. Although we want want to think the battery pack was fully 
charged, the deal was not closed and doubt remains.


The best way to have made the case of real gain would have been to 
actually drive the EV around until the battery pack was fully discharged 
and then work backwards from the mileage driven to determine the real 
state of charge at the start.


Sadly, circumstances prevented that from happening, so although it 
appears there was gain, the level of proof does not support that 
conclusion. Even more sadly, the inventor then became incapacitated and 
the vehicle was sold. The remnants of the device (magnetic billet) have 
been tested but there is still no good indication of the apparent gain 
seen earlier.


The one detail which cannot be doubted is the cooling effect. That alone 
is worth something.



Chris Zell wrote:


Another overlapping mechanism to add into the mix for the Manelas 
effect, which is probably a "Maxwell's Demon" in its own special way 
is related to the organizing mechanism mentioned by Chris... and it 
has a name: Doppler cooling


Sounds kinda red shifty to me.   Not sure how we extract energy from it.

RE: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE

[Chris Zell]

From: Jones Beene [mailto:jone...@pacbell.net]
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2017 12:14 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE


Another overlapping mechanism to add into the mix for the Manelas effect, which 
is probably a "Maxwell's Demon" in its own special way is related to the 
organizing mechanism mentioned by Chris... and it has a name: Doppler cooling

Sounds kinda red shifty to me.   Not sure how we extract energy from it.

RE: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE

[Chris Zell]

I do recall Wingate Lambertson  - a scientist/expert on cermet products.  Odd 
semi-ceramic things he called "E-dams" that generated excess energy.  I recall 
that he passed away before it could be fully developed.   It all sounded like 
phonon derived energy.

From: Jones Beene [mailto:jone...@pacbell.net]
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2017 11:14 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE



 Chris Zell wrote:

If I google "phonons as an energy source", nothing in particular comes up.  If 
we are identifying them as the likely source of excess energy within a 
barium/strontium ferrite structure,  I would think that someone somewhere has 
thought about cohering them into useful energy.


But if you google "Microelectromechanical systems" you will get 750,000 hits.

RE: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE

[Chris Zell]

http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Lattice+Vibrations

If a crystal lattice has all of its atoms/molecules vibrating at the same 
frequency (or harmonic),  then I assume the reason why we don’t observe 
crystals radiating is because it’s in all directions and cancels itself out in 
whatever ‘antenna’ is used.

I still wonder how the gross/macro motion of magnetic fields within a slab that 
measures in inches withdraws energy from something vibrating at the molecular 
range – if not quantum level.

I assume also that the only reason we can grow crystals that easily match the 
form of a single atom/molecule is because the emerging form ‘acts as one’.  You 
start with a tiny cube of table salt and end up with a big one because it 
vibrates and attracts equally in all directions. Otherwise, we couldn’t expect 
that cubes randomly tossed into a corner would end up as a huge cube most of 
the time.

Sorry, if I’m a bit behind you guys, I’m just trying to reason and visualize 
this stuff…..

From: bobcook39...@gmail.com [mailto:bobcook39...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2017 11:26 AM
To: Chris Zell ; vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE

Brian—

I also thought there might be a connection between the Manelas device and 
Dragone theory.  Again the possibility of reversal of the 2nd Law of T/D is 
very interesting.

One thought I had was the orbital spin quanta are involved since in a coherent 
system they are limited to changing one quanta at a time IMHO.  This 
restriction may somehow effect the reversal noted above to create more order in 
the crystal structures (grains) weakly coupled in the Manelas device.  Small 
phase changes of the crystals may constitute such reordering that leads to a 
nuclear  transition of greater stability.  The temperature differential is then 
used to make a useful voltage.

Bob Cook

From: Chris Zell
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2017 8:05 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE

If I google “phonons as an energy source”, nothing in particular comes up.  If 
we are identifying them as the likely source of excess energy within a 
barium/strontium ferrite structure,  I would think that someone somewhere has 
thought about cohering them into useful energy.  So, we create a particular 
motion that gives us a gain from ‘straightening out’ random motion..?

From: Brian Ahern [mailto:ahern_br...@msn.com]
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2017 10:06 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE



I am intrigued by the Dragone stuff. It seems very close to Manelas, which I 
thoroughly tested in2012.

From: Chris Zell >
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2017 9:41 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE


http://rexresearch.com/maccanti/maccanti.htm
Giampaolo Maccanti -- alleged free energy 
generator
rexresearch.com
Energia Celeste S.R.L. 17 Seprember 1998 Abstract--- Electromagnetic device 
(100), particularly to be used as a generator, for example of ...





As Dragone seems to be talking about an effect which appears during attraction, 
I wonder about the overunity claims of the Maccanti device.



From: bobcook39...@gmail.com 
[mailto:bobcook39...@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2017 9:35 AM
To: MJ >; 
vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE



Dragone discussed the idea of decreasing entropy (increasing order of matter) 
as a an effect of the magnetic device he described.  That may include better 
nuclear order.



Another interesting item is the assessment of the Dragone document.



http://www.intalek.com/Index/Projects/Research/DragoneAnalysis.pdf
Analysis of Leon Dragone's paper by William 
Alek
www.intalek.com
Analysis of Leon Dragone's, "Energetics of Ferromagnetism" By William S. Alek 
INTALEK, INC. November 2002 Version 5a





Bob Cook

From: MJ
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 3:25 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE



Leon Dragone also observed the cooling effect related to magnetism:


http://exvacuo.free.fr/div/Sciences/Dossiers/EM/Leon%20Dragone%20-%20Energetics%20of%20Ferromagnetism.pdf

Mark Jordan


On 16-Feb-17 19:42, David Roberson wrote:

When a hot object radiates IR into space the temperature also drops.  Perhaps 
there is a low frequency form of magnetic coupling that can be encouraged to 

Re: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE

[Jones Beene]

Another overlapping mechanism to add into the mix for the Manelas 
effect, which is probably a "Maxwell's Demon" in its own special way is 
related to the organizing mechanism mentioned by Chris... and it has a 
name: Doppler cooling


Doppler cooling usually involves photons with frequency tuned slightly 
below an electronic transition in the target to be cooled, but there is 
no reason it could not involved phonons which are slightly "detuned" or 
reddened (i.e. moved to a lower frequency as a Doppler sound effect). In 
fact this is the cooling mechanism behind the Ranque-Hilsch vortex tube 
- for which this forum was named.


Thus the magnetic magnons/phonons will absorb vibration in one vector 
and radiate slightly more energy in all other vectors, due to the 
Doppler cooling effect.



-Original Message-
From: Chris Zell

If a specially shaped magnetic field can drop the temperature of
an apparatus, shouldn’t we conclude that random motion (heat) is
somehow being converted into directed, useful motion?  That
Maxwell’s Demon has been found?

RE: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE

[bobcook39923]

Brian—

I also thought there might be a connection between the Manelas device and 
Dragone theory.  Again the possibility of reversal of the 2nd Law of T/D is 
very interesting.  

One thought I had was the orbital spin quanta are involved since in a coherent 
system they are limited to changing one quanta at a time IMHO.  This 
restriction may somehow effect the reversal noted above to create more order in 
the crystal structures (grains) weakly coupled in the Manelas device.  Small 
phase changes of the crystals may constitute such reordering that leads to a 
nuclear  transition of greater stability.  The temperature differential is then 
used to make a useful voltage.

Bob Cook  

From: Chris Zell
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2017 8:05 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE

If I google “phonons as an energy source”, nothing in particular comes up.  If 
we are identifying them as the likely source of excess energy within a 
barium/strontium ferrite structure,  I would think that someone somewhere has 
thought about cohering them into useful energy.  So, we create a particular 
motion that gives us a gain from ‘straightening out’ random motion..?

From: Brian Ahern [mailto:ahern_br...@msn.com] 
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2017 10:06 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE


I am intrigued by the Dragone stuff. It seems very close to Manelas, which I 
thoroughly tested in2012.

From: Chris Zell 
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2017 9:41 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE 
 
http://rexresearch.com/maccanti/maccanti.htm
Giampaolo Maccanti -- alleged free energy generator
rexresearch.com
Energia Celeste S.R.L. 17 Seprember 1998 Abstract--- Electromagnetic device 
(100), particularly to be used as a generator, for example of ...
 
As Dragone seems to be talking about an effect which appears during attraction, 
I wonder about the overunity claims of the Maccanti device. 
    
 
From: bobcook39...@gmail.com [mailto:bobcook39...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2017 9:35 AM
To: MJ ; vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE
 
Dragone discussed the idea of decreasing entropy (increasing order of matter) 
as a an effect of the magnetic device he described.  That may include better 
nuclear order.  
 
Another interesting item is the assessment of the Dragone document.
 
http://www.intalek.com/Index/Projects/Research/DragoneAnalysis.pdf
Analysis of Leon Dragone's paper by William Alek
www.intalek.com
Analysis of Leon Dragone's, "Energetics of Ferromagnetism" By William S. Alek 
INTALEK, INC. November 2002 Version 5a
 
Bob Cook
From: MJ
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 3:25 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE
 

    Leon Dragone also observed the cooling effect related to magnetism:

    
http://exvacuo.free.fr/div/Sciences/Dossiers/EM/Leon%20Dragone%20-%20Energetics%20of%20Ferromagnetism.pdf

    Mark Jordan
    

On 16-Feb-17 19:42, David Roberson wrote:
When a hot object radiates IR into space the temperature also drops.  Perhaps 
there is a low frequency form of magnetic coupling that can be encouraged to do 
a similar thing.  According to my observations there seems to be a method 
available to convert energy among the different forms under most conditions.

Dave
 
 
 
-Original Message-
From: Chris Zell 
To: vortex-l 
Sent: Thu, Feb 16, 2017 3:02 pm
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE
If a specially shaped magnetic field can drop the temperature of an apparatus, 
shouldn’t we conclude that random motion (heat) is somehow being converted into 
directed, useful motion?  That Maxwell’s Demon has been found?
 
 

Re: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE

[Jones Beene]

 Chris Zell wrote:


If I google “phonons as an energy source”, nothing in particular comes 
up.  If we are identifying them as the likely source of excess energy 
within a barium/strontium ferrite structure,  I would think that 
someone somewhere has thought about cohering them into useful energy.





But if you google "Microelectromechanical systems" you will get 750,000 
hits.

RE: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE

[Chris Zell]

If I google "phonons as an energy source", nothing in particular comes up.  If 
we are identifying them as the likely source of excess energy within a 
barium/strontium ferrite structure,  I would think that someone somewhere has 
thought about cohering them into useful energy.  So, we create a particular 
motion that gives us a gain from 'straightening out' random 
motion..?

From: Brian Ahern [mailto:ahern_br...@msn.com]
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2017 10:06 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE



I am intrigued by the Dragone stuff. It seems very close to Manelas, which I 
thoroughly tested in2012.

From: Chris Zell >
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2017 9:41 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE


http://rexresearch.com/maccanti/maccanti.htm
Giampaolo Maccanti -- alleged free energy 
generator
rexresearch.com
Energia Celeste S.R.L. 17 Seprember 1998 Abstract--- Electromagnetic device 
(100), particularly to be used as a generator, for example of ...





As Dragone seems to be talking about an effect which appears during attraction, 
I wonder about the overunity claims of the Maccanti device.



From: bobcook39...@gmail.com 
[mailto:bobcook39...@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2017 9:35 AM
To: MJ >; 
vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE



Dragone discussed the idea of decreasing entropy (increasing order of matter) 
as a an effect of the magnetic device he described.  That may include better 
nuclear order.



Another interesting item is the assessment of the Dragone document.



http://www.intalek.com/Index/Projects/Research/DragoneAnalysis.pdf
Analysis of Leon Dragone's paper by William 
Alek
www.intalek.com
Analysis of Leon Dragone's, "Energetics of Ferromagnetism" By William S. Alek 
INTALEK, INC. November 2002 Version 5a





Bob Cook

From: MJ
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 3:25 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE



Leon Dragone also observed the cooling effect related to magnetism:


http://exvacuo.free.fr/div/Sciences/Dossiers/EM/Leon%20Dragone%20-%20Energetics%20of%20Ferromagnetism.pdf

Mark Jordan


On 16-Feb-17 19:42, David Roberson wrote:

When a hot object radiates IR into space the temperature also drops.  Perhaps 
there is a low frequency form of magnetic coupling that can be encouraged to do 
a similar thing.  According to my observations there seems to be a method 
available to convert energy among the different forms under most conditions.

Dave







-Original Message-
From: Chris Zell 
To: vortex-l 
Sent: Thu, Feb 16, 2017 3:02 pm
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE

If a specially shaped magnetic field can drop the temperature of an apparatus, 
shouldn't we conclude that random motion (heat) is somehow being converted into 
directed, useful motion?  That Maxwell's Demon has been found?

RE: [Vo]:Changing the topic back to the test

[bobcook39923]

Jones—

I have concluded that Jed frequently draws conclusions that  IMHO are not 
logical.  The one you point is one I decided not to even address, since I 
thought it was obvious to most.

Bob Cook

From: Jones Beene
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2017 7:50 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Changing the topic back to the test

 Jed Rothwell wrote: 
If he had shown them how to produce any measurable COP, even 1.1, they would 
have paid him $89 million.

That is an absurd statement which has zero credibility. You are falling into 
the same trap as Rossi's true believers, which is to make a dubious point at 
any cost.

If IH were under no contractual obligation and paid anyway, IH's own investors 
would sue, and win for mismanaging assets. 

It makes no sense that IH would pay Rossi a dime for low COP and that is the 
most likely scenario: Rossi had low COP in the range of 150% more power-out 
than power-in (at Lugano) and nothing in Miami but that feat gets him not one 
extra dime, and it shouldn't.

$11 million is a fair price for a modest effect which was already demonstrated 
and patented by Thermacore twenty years ago. Slight gain at a low level should 
have changed physics back then but it did not and it will not change physics 
today unless it makes its way into a commercial product.

Rossi may be a scam-artist deluxe and a pathological liar, but it does not help 
to resilve the situation to lower oneself to the same low level. 

Take the high road, as the lady sez...

Re: [Vo]:Changing the topic back to the test

[Jones Beene]

 Jed Rothwell wrote:
If he had shown them how to produce any measurable COP, even 1.1, they 
would have paid him $89 million.


That is an absurd statement which has zero credibility. You are falling 
into the same trap as Rossi's true believers, which is to make a dubious 
point at any cost.


If IH were under no contractual obligation and paid anyway, IH's own 
investors would sue, and win for mismanaging assets.


It makes no sense that IH would pay Rossi a dime for low COP and that is 
the most likely scenario: Rossi had low COP in the range of 150% more 
power-out than power-in (at Lugano) and nothing in Miami but that feat 
gets him not one extra dime, and it shouldn't.


$11 million is a fair price for a modest effect which was already 
demonstrated and patented by Thermacore twenty years ago. Slight gain at 
a low level should have changed physics back then but it did not and it 
will not change physics today unless it makes its way into a commercial 
product.


Rossi may be a scam-artist deluxe and a pathological liar, but it does 
not help to resilve the situation to lower oneself to the same low level.


Take the high road, as the lady sez...

Re: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE

[Brian Ahern]

I am intrigued by the Dragone stuff. It seems very close to Manelas, which I 
thoroughly tested in2012.


From: Chris Zell 
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2017 9:41 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE


http://rexresearch.com/maccanti/maccanti.htm

Giampaolo Maccanti -- alleged free energy 
generator
rexresearch.com
Energia Celeste S.R.L. 17 Seprember 1998 Abstract--- Electromagnetic device 
(100), particularly to be used as a generator, for example of ...





As Dragone seems to be talking about an effect which appears during attraction, 
I wonder about the overunity claims of the Maccanti device.



From: bobcook39...@gmail.com [mailto:bobcook39...@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2017 9:35 AM
To: MJ ; vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE



Dragone discussed the idea of decreasing entropy (increasing order of matter) 
as a an effect of the magnetic device he described.  That may include better 
nuclear order.



Another interesting item is the assessment of the Dragone document.



http://www.intalek.com/Index/Projects/Research/DragoneAnalysis.pdf

Analysis of Leon Dragone's paper by William 
Alek
www.intalek.com
Analysis of Leon Dragone's, "Energetics of Ferromagnetism" By William S. Alek 
INTALEK, INC. November 2002 Version 5a





Bob Cook

From: MJ
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 3:25 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE



Leon Dragone also observed the cooling effect related to magnetism:


http://exvacuo.free.fr/div/Sciences/Dossiers/EM/Leon%20Dragone%20-%20Energetics%20of%20Ferromagnetism.pdf

Mark Jordan


On 16-Feb-17 19:42, David Roberson wrote:

When a hot object radiates IR into space the temperature also drops.  Perhaps 
there is a low frequency form of magnetic coupling that can be encouraged to do 
a similar thing.  According to my observations there seems to be a method 
available to convert energy among the different forms under most conditions.

Dave







-Original Message-
From: Chris Zell 
To: vortex-l 
Sent: Thu, Feb 16, 2017 3:02 pm
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE

If a specially shaped magnetic field can drop the temperature of an apparatus, 
shouldn’t we conclude that random motion (heat) is somehow being converted into 
directed, useful motion?  That Maxwell’s Demon has been found?

Re: [Vo]:Changing the topic back to the test

[Jed Rothwell]

 wrote:


> I do not consider that the contractual sale of IP by Rossi included
> training IH in his POHOSITA to obtain long term performance of the E-Cat
> above a COP of 4.
>

I do not recall the details of the contract, but it covered all IP, at any
COP. It covered everything, patented or not. There was no restriction
saying it was only up to a COP of 4. More to the point, Rossi was unable to
produce any excess heat, at any measurable COP. Not 4, not 2, not 1.01. He
tried for a year or more and got nothing.

So, what you say does not apply to this situation. Rossi had a contractual
obligation to provide all IP, without exception.

If he had shown them how to produce any measurable COP, even 1.1, they
would have paid him $89 million.

- Jed

RE: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE

[Chris Zell]

http://rexresearch.com/maccanti/maccanti.htm

As Dragone seems to be talking about an effect which appears during attraction, 
I wonder about the overunity claims of the Maccanti device.

From: bobcook39...@gmail.com [mailto:bobcook39...@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2017 9:35 AM
To: MJ ; vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE

Dragone discussed the idea of decreasing entropy (increasing order of matter) 
as a an effect of the magnetic device he described.  That may include better 
nuclear order.

Another interesting item is the assessment of the Dragone document.

http://www.intalek.com/Index/Projects/Research/DragoneAnalysis.pdf

Bob Cook
From: MJ
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 3:25 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE


Leon Dragone also observed the cooling effect related to magnetism:


http://exvacuo.free.fr/div/Sciences/Dossiers/EM/Leon%20Dragone%20-%20Energetics%20of%20Ferromagnetism.pdf

Mark Jordan


On 16-Feb-17 19:42, David Roberson wrote:
When a hot object radiates IR into space the temperature also drops.  Perhaps 
there is a low frequency form of magnetic coupling that can be encouraged to do 
a similar thing.  According to my observations there seems to be a method 
available to convert energy among the different forms under most conditions.

Dave



-Original Message-
From: Chris Zell 
To: vortex-l 
Sent: Thu, Feb 16, 2017 3:02 pm
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Regarding what BOB COOK THINKS ABOUT THE NAE
If a specially shaped magnetic field can drop the temperature of an apparatus, 
shouldn’t we conclude that random motion (heat) is somehow being converted into 
directed, useful motion?  That Maxwell’s Demon has been found?