Re: [Vo]:Re:LENR transmutation may be subject to quantum mechanical superposition.

[mixent]

In reply to  Axil Axil's message of Sat, 11 May 2019 00:00:13 -0400:
Hi,
[snip]
>Fe-Si is used to produce cast iron as a purifying agent. Fe-Si is used to
>remove carbon from the cast iron melt. If the Fe-Si were contaminated with
>high levels of carbon, then the carbon would render the cast iron out of
>spec.The final product produced by  the customer of the smelter would be
>steel.

The carbon isn't in the form of elemental carbon, it's in the form of CO.
Regards,


Robin van Spaandonk

local asymmetry = temporary success

Re: [Vo]:Re:LENR transmutation may be subject to quantum mechanical superposition.

[Axil Axil]

Fe-Si is used to produce cast iron as a purifying agent. Fe-Si is used to
remove carbon from the cast iron melt. If the Fe-Si were contaminated with
high levels of carbon, then the carbon would render the cast iron out of
spec.The final product produced by  the customer of the smelter would be
steel.

On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 10:33 PM  wrote:

> In reply to  Axil Axil's message of Fri, 10 May 2019 22:17:07 -0400:
> Hi,
> [snip]
> >The smelter is selling the output material by weight. If there was a huge
> >weight reduction of 25% over time due to the escape of CO from the output
> >material when that material was in inventory, then this weight reduction
> >would surely show up in the accounting records of the company.
>
> If it's chemically bound, then it probably won't escape over time, but
> rather at
> the time of use. Granted the customer would likely find that they were
> paying a
> bit too  much, but such losses are usually attributed to simple things like
> spillage. Besides, the anomalous material was only produced for a
> relatively
> short period, and would likely have been distributed and used along with
> other
> unaffected material at both ends of the supply chain. In short the anomaly
> is
> not likely to have been noticed, were it not for the weighing during
> production.
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Robin van Spaandonk
>
> local asymmetry = temporary success
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Re:LENR transmutation may be subject to quantum mechanical superposition.

[mixent]

In reply to  Axil Axil's message of Fri, 10 May 2019 22:17:07 -0400:
Hi,
[snip]
>The smelter is selling the output material by weight. If there was a huge
>weight reduction of 25% over time due to the escape of CO from the output
>material when that material was in inventory, then this weight reduction
>would surely show up in the accounting records of the company.

If it's chemically bound, then it probably won't escape over time, but rather at
the time of use. Granted the customer would likely find that they were paying a
bit too  much, but such losses are usually attributed to simple things like
spillage. Besides, the anomalous material was only produced for a relatively
short period, and would likely have been distributed and used along with other
unaffected material at both ends of the supply chain. In short the anomaly is
not likely to have been noticed, were it not for the weighing during production.

Regards,


Robin van Spaandonk

local asymmetry = temporary success

Re: [Vo]:Re:LENR transmutation may be subject to quantum mechanical superposition.

[Axil Axil]

The smelter is selling the output material by weight. If there was a huge
weight reduction of 25% over time due to the escape of CO from the output
material when that material was in inventory, then this weight reduction
would surely show up in the accounting records of the company.

On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 10:05 PM  wrote:

> In reply to  Axil Axil's message of Fri, 10 May 2019 21:43:37 -0400:
> Hi,
> [snip]
> >But chemical analysis of the output materiel  showed that the CO was* not
> *
> >chemically
> >bound to at least one of those elements.
>
> Oh really, where does it say this? Note that this statement is NOT the same
> thing as saying that Fe & Si were present in the correct proportions.
>
> >In addition, the amount of this CO
> >contamination would need to be 4.25 ton/day.
>
> Yes.
>
> > That is 25% of the total
> >output product.
>
> Correct.
>
> >That amount of contamination is not possible to miss in a
> >commercial operation selling to many customers.
>
>
> It might be if they all use the same industry standard testing
> methodology, and
> that method results in the early release of the CO, which is an odorless
> invisible gas.
>
> >
> >It is more likely that your assumptions about how quantum mechanics
> >operates in LENR is not well founded.
>
> Possible, though I don't think it's more likely.
> [snip]
> Regards,
>
>
> Robin van Spaandonk
>
> local asymmetry = temporary success
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Re:LENR transmutation may be subject to quantum mechanical superposition.

[mixent]

In reply to  Axil Axil's message of Fri, 10 May 2019 21:43:37 -0400:
Hi,
[snip]
>But chemical analysis of the output materiel  showed that the CO was* not *
>chemically
>bound to at least one of those elements. 

Oh really, where does it say this? Note that this statement is NOT the same
thing as saying that Fe & Si were present in the correct proportions.

>In addition, the amount of this CO
>contamination would need to be 4.25 ton/day.

Yes.

> That is 25% of the total
>output product. 

Correct.

>That amount of contamination is not possible to miss in a
>commercial operation selling to many customers.


It might be if they all use the same industry standard testing methodology, and
that method results in the early release of the CO, which is an odorless
invisible gas.

>
>It is more likely that your assumptions about how quantum mechanics
>operates in LENR is not well founded.

Possible, though I don't think it's more likely.
[snip]
Regards,


Robin van Spaandonk

local asymmetry = temporary success

Re: [Vo]:Re:LENR transmutation may be subject to quantum mechanical superposition.

[Axil Axil]

But chemical analysis of the output materiel  showed that the CO was* not *
chemically
bound to at least one of those elements. In addition, the amount of this CO
contamination would need to be 4.25 ton/day. That is 25% of the total
output product. That amount of contamination is not possible to miss in a
commercial operation selling to many customers.

It is more likely that your assumptions about how quantum mechanics
operates in LENR is not well founded.

On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 8:17 PM  wrote:

> In reply to  Axil Axil's message of Fri, 10 May 2019 19:55:16 -0400:
> Hi,
> [snip]
> >The smelting charging function is computer automated and it must have been
> >checked many times when the anomaly in the amount of output produce was
> >first recognized.
> >
> >"The screened raw materials were taken using a conveyer system to the
> third
> >floor of the furnace and stored in
> >separate over head bunkers. Each of the three raw materials were weighed
> >according to *a computerized batching system*
> >and transferred into charging buckets running on monorails in the second
> >floor. Charging buckets then discharged the
> >premixed raw materials into the furnace every 10–15 min through chutes.
> >Shift-wise consumption of all raw materials
> >was totalized to obtain daily (24 h) consumption data."
>
> ...but there was nothing wrong with the input. The problem is with the
> output.
> Note also that the electric power used matches the input materials, which
> is a
> good indication that the input is correct.
>
> The most likely explanation is that the weight of the output increased
> because
> something extra was in it. The author made the assumption that CO had
> transmuted
> to Fe & Si, rather than making the simpler assumption that the CO was
> chemically
> bound to at least one of those elements.
> [snip]
> Regards,
>
>
> Robin van Spaandonk
>
> local asymmetry = temporary success
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Re:LENR transmutation may be subject to quantum mechanical superposition.

[mixent]

In reply to  Axil Axil's message of Fri, 10 May 2019 19:55:16 -0400:
Hi,
[snip]
>The smelting charging function is computer automated and it must have been
>checked many times when the anomaly in the amount of output produce was
>first recognized.
>
>"The screened raw materials were taken using a conveyer system to the third
>floor of the furnace and stored in
>separate over head bunkers. Each of the three raw materials were weighed
>according to *a computerized batching system*
>and transferred into charging buckets running on monorails in the second
>floor. Charging buckets then discharged the
>premixed raw materials into the furnace every 10–15 min through chutes.
>Shift-wise consumption of all raw materials
>was totalized to obtain daily (24 h) consumption data."

...but there was nothing wrong with the input. The problem is with the output.
Note also that the electric power used matches the input materials, which is a
good indication that the input is correct.

The most likely explanation is that the weight of the output increased because
something extra was in it. The author made the assumption that CO had transmuted
to Fe & Si, rather than making the simpler assumption that the CO was chemically
bound to at least one of those elements.
[snip]
Regards,


Robin van Spaandonk

local asymmetry = temporary success

Re: [Vo]:Re:LENR transmutation may be subject to quantum mechanical superposition.

[Axil Axil]

The smelting charging function is computer automated and it must have been
checked many times when the anomaly in the amount of output produce was
first recognized.

"The screened raw materials were taken using a conveyer system to the third
floor of the furnace and stored in
separate over head bunkers. Each of the three raw materials were weighed
according to *a computerized batching system*
and transferred into charging buckets running on monorails in the second
floor. Charging buckets then discharged the
premixed raw materials into the furnace every 10–15 min through chutes.
Shift-wise consumption of all raw materials
was totalized to obtain daily (24 h) consumption data."

On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 7:47 PM  wrote:

> In reply to  Axil Axil's message of Fri, 10 May 2019 18:00:18 -0400:
> Hi,
> [snip]
> >The net increase in silicon from the input feed is 18%, The net increase
> in
> >iron form the input feed is 28.4%. These increases in the output product
> >are so large that such increases  cannot be mistaken for  CO being
> >chemically bound as a trace contaminant  either on a short term or long
> >term basis.
>
> There was probably no increase in either Fe or Si. These are simply
> assumptions
> that the author made based on the probably false assumption that
> transmutation
> was taking place.
>
> >
> >Face it.
>
> You face it. While LENR and transmutation may well be real, I seriously
> doubt
> that this is an example thereof, particularly given that a very reasonable
> alternative explanation is available.
>
>
> >You are fighting against a long term assumption about the way the
> >LENR reaction and transmutation actually works.
>
> Not at all. I'm willing to accept that transmutation may have occurred,
> but I
> think that in this case, it's highly unlikely. You simply picked a poor
> example.
>
> >LENR is a pure quantum
> >mechanical process involving superposition of particles and radiation as
> >well as non-locality of matter and energy. When particles and radiation
> are
> >in the state of superposition, they travel unobserved and without impact
> on
> >their environment to a field very  from their place of origin while the
> >LENR reaction is active..
>
> This is pure fantasy.
>
>
> >This quantum mechanical nature of the LENR
> >reaction may be why few LENR experiments show excess heat and/or
> radiation.
> >Experimenters expect to see immediate results, but positive results might
> >only be observable until the LENR reaction terminates. Such is the nature
> >of quantum mechanics.
>
> Wrong. Contrary to popular opinion, cats are not both dead and alive at
> the same
> time. They are either one or the other. The only uncertainty is in the
> mind of
> the observer, not in reality. Note also that quantum equations reflect the
> current knowledge of the experimenter, which naturally changes when a
> measurement is done, hence the "collapse" of the wave function is a
> consequence
> of the experimenter having to use a modified equation due to their change
> in
> knowledge as a consequence of having made an observation.
> There is no magic involved just a complete and utter anthropocentric
> misinterpretation of what's happening. Scientists far too certain of their
> own
> importance.
>
> [snip]
> Regards,
>
>
> Robin van Spaandonk
>
> local asymmetry = temporary success
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Re:LENR transmutation may be subject to quantum mechanical superposition.

[mixent]

In reply to  Axil Axil's message of Fri, 10 May 2019 18:00:18 -0400:
Hi,
[snip]
>The net increase in silicon from the input feed is 18%, The net increase in
>iron form the input feed is 28.4%. These increases in the output product
>are so large that such increases  cannot be mistaken for  CO being
>chemically bound as a trace contaminant  either on a short term or long
>term basis.

There was probably no increase in either Fe or Si. These are simply assumptions
that the author made based on the probably false assumption that transmutation
was taking place.

>
>Face it. 

You face it. While LENR and transmutation may well be real, I seriously doubt
that this is an example thereof, particularly given that a very reasonable
alternative explanation is available.


>You are fighting against a long term assumption about the way the
>LENR reaction and transmutation actually works. 

Not at all. I'm willing to accept that transmutation may have occurred, but I
think that in this case, it's highly unlikely. You simply picked a poor example.

>LENR is a pure quantum
>mechanical process involving superposition of particles and radiation as
>well as non-locality of matter and energy. When particles and radiation are
>in the state of superposition, they travel unobserved and without impact on
>their environment to a field very  from their place of origin while the
>LENR reaction is active.. 

This is pure fantasy.


>This quantum mechanical nature of the LENR
>reaction may be why few LENR experiments show excess heat and/or radiation.
>Experimenters expect to see immediate results, but positive results might
>only be observable until the LENR reaction terminates. Such is the nature
>of quantum mechanics.

Wrong. Contrary to popular opinion, cats are not both dead and alive at the same
time. They are either one or the other. The only uncertainty is in the mind of
the observer, not in reality. Note also that quantum equations reflect the
current knowledge of the experimenter, which naturally changes when a
measurement is done, hence the "collapse" of the wave function is a consequence
of the experimenter having to use a modified equation due to their change in
knowledge as a consequence of having made an observation.
There is no magic involved just a complete and utter anthropocentric
misinterpretation of what's happening. Scientists far too certain of their own
importance.

[snip]
Regards,


Robin van Spaandonk

local asymmetry = temporary success

Re: [Vo]:test2

[John Berry]

icle

On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 4:23 PM William Beaty  wrote:

>
> test
>
> --
>
>  ( (  (   ((O))   )  ) ) )
> William J. Beatyhttp://staff.washington.edu/wbeaty/
> wbeaty, uw edu  Research Engineer
> billb, amasci com   UW Chem Dept,  Bagley Hall RM74
> 206-543-6195Box 351700, Seattle, WA 98195
>

Re: [Vo]:Re:LENR transmutation may be subject to quantum mechanical superposition.

[Axil Axil]

The net increase in silicon from the input feed is 18%, The net increase in
iron form the input feed is 28.4%. These increases in the output product
are so large that such increases  cannot be mistaken for  CO being
chemically bound as a trace contaminant  either on a short term or long
term basis.

Face it. You are fighting against a long term assumption about the way the
LENR reaction and transmutation actually works. LENR is a pure quantum
mechanical process involving superposition of particles and radiation as
well as non-locality of matter and energy. When particles and radiation are
in the state of superposition, they travel unobserved and without impact on
their environment to a field very  from their place of origin while the
LENR reaction is active.. This quantum mechanical nature of the LENR
reaction may be why few LENR experiments show excess heat and/or radiation.
Experimenters expect to see immediate results, but positive results might
only be observable until the LENR reaction terminates. Such is the nature
of quantum mechanics.

On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 5:03 PM  wrote:

> In reply to  Axil Axil's message of Fri, 10 May 2019 02:20:24 -0400:
> Hi,
> [snip]
> >The CO that was not transmuted to Si and Fe is burned as CO2 and vented
> >then scrubbed. Neither C nor O combined chemically with Fe–Si as per
> >chemical analysis. But carbon was thought to transmute to Si and Fe as per
> >Carbon Arc LENR experiments [5–8] in which anomalous generation of Si and
> >Fe was observed..
>
> Indeed:- "Neither C nor O combined chemically with Fe–Si as per chemical
> analysis." However C & O combined as a molecule of CO, may well have been
> included and later escaped as a gas in the early stages of analysis.
>
> Note that the author would not be able to tell whether CO was chemically
> bound
> or a nuclear reaction had taken place to convert it into Fe-Si, other than
> the
> fact that there was no crater, and thousands in the neighborhood didn't
> die from
> radiation poisoning.
>
> >
> >Using the estimated energy release values of 17.13 MeV/atom of Si or 49.58
> >MeV per atom of Fe given in
> >Appendix B, for the postulated nuclear transmutation reactions, it can be
> >shown that corresponding to 4.25 ton of metal
> >transmutation, the power generated should have been the equivalent of the
> >total thermal power generated by hundreds
> >of 1000MWe nuclear power stations.
>
> which clearly didn't happen. This pretty much rules out a nuclear
> reaction,
> with the possible, if highly unlikely, option that all energy release was
> in the
> form of virtually undetectable neutrino anti-neutrino pairs.
>
> Note that in order for endothermic reactions to have completely
> compensated for
> exothermic reactions, numerous lighter elements would need to have been
> produced
> as well, some of which would undoubtedly have contaminated the end
> product, and
> have been detected during analysis.
> >
> >Appendix B contains the expected excess energy gain from nuclear binding
> >energy released in the transmutation process.
> >
> >This situation goes to show that transmutation  produced by the LENR
> >reaction is not a major source of excess heat,
>
> Actually it doesn't. All it shows is that the author failed to consider all
> options.
>
> >
> >Richard P. *Feynman:* It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it
> >doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with *experiment*,
> >it's wrong.
>
>
> Indeed.
> Regards,
>
>
> Robin van Spaandonk
>
> local asymmetry = temporary success
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Re:LENR transmutation may be subject to quantum mechanical superposition.

[mixent]

In reply to  Axil Axil's message of Fri, 10 May 2019 02:20:24 -0400:
Hi,
[snip]
>The CO that was not transmuted to Si and Fe is burned as CO2 and vented
>then scrubbed. Neither C nor O combined chemically with Fe–Si as per
>chemical analysis. But carbon was thought to transmute to Si and Fe as per
>Carbon Arc LENR experiments [5–8] in which anomalous generation of Si and
>Fe was observed..

Indeed:- "Neither C nor O combined chemically with Fe–Si as per chemical
analysis." However C & O combined as a molecule of CO, may well have been
included and later escaped as a gas in the early stages of analysis.

Note that the author would not be able to tell whether CO was chemically bound
or a nuclear reaction had taken place to convert it into Fe-Si, other than the
fact that there was no crater, and thousands in the neighborhood didn't die from
radiation poisoning.

>
>Using the estimated energy release values of 17.13 MeV/atom of Si or 49.58
>MeV per atom of Fe given in
>Appendix B, for the postulated nuclear transmutation reactions, it can be
>shown that corresponding to 4.25 ton of metal
>transmutation, the power generated should have been the equivalent of the
>total thermal power generated by hundreds
>of 1000MWe nuclear power stations.

which clearly didn't happen. This pretty much rules out a nuclear reaction,
with the possible, if highly unlikely, option that all energy release was in the
form of virtually undetectable neutrino anti-neutrino pairs.

Note that in order for endothermic reactions to have completely compensated for
exothermic reactions, numerous lighter elements would need to have been produced
as well, some of which would undoubtedly have contaminated the end product, and
have been detected during analysis.
>
>Appendix B contains the expected excess energy gain from nuclear binding
>energy released in the transmutation process.
>
>This situation goes to show that transmutation  produced by the LENR
>reaction is not a major source of excess heat,

Actually it doesn't. All it shows is that the author failed to consider all
options.

>
>Richard P. *Feynman:* It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it
>doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with *experiment*,
>it's wrong.


Indeed.
Regards,


Robin van Spaandonk

local asymmetry = temporary success

Re: [Vo]:Math Scholar paper on LENR

[Jed Rothwell]

bobcook39...@hotmail.com  wrote:

Jed—
>
>
>
> Do you know who wrote the Math Scholar item on LENR?
>

No idea. I looked around the website to find the author. It is a little odd
that the author is not listed.

Re: [Vo]:test

[Jed Rothwell]

Working now. There was a glitch yesterday.

RE: [Vo]:test

[bobcook39...@hotmail.com]

I received Beaty test.

Bob Cook

Sent from Mail for Windows 10


From: leaking pen 
Sent: Thursday, May 9, 2019 9:24:59 PM
To: vortex-l
Subject: Re: [Vo]:test

didnt get it. sorry.

On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 9:14 PM William Beaty 
mailto:bi...@eskimo.com>> wrote:
test

RE: [Vo]:Math Scholar paper on LENR

[bobcook39...@hotmail.com]

Jed—

Do you know who wrote the Math Scholar item on LENR?

Bob Cook



From: Jed Rothwell 
Sent: Friday, May 10, 2019 6:30:05 AM
To: Vortex
Subject: [Vo]:Math Scholar paper on LENR

See:

https://mathscholar.org/2019/03/lenr-energy-science-or-pseudoscience/

Re: [Vo]:Math Scholar paper on LENR

[Frank Grimer]

Yes, fusion requires enormous temperatures at ambient pressure.
not if the pressure is reduced by orders of pF magnitude.

However, until it is recognised that there is no such thing as an
attractive force and all materials are held together from without
and not from within, held together by a hierarchy of "atmospheres",
little progress will be made in understanding cold fusion.

On Fri, 10 May 2019 at 14:30, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> See:
>
> https://mathscholar.org/2019/03/lenr-energy-science-or-pseudoscience/
>
>

[Vo]:Math Scholar paper on LENR

[Jed Rothwell]

See:

https://mathscholar.org/2019/03/lenr-energy-science-or-pseudoscience/

Re: [Vo]:Re:LENR transmutation may be subject to quantum mechanical superposition.

[Axil Axil]

"The whole
process is slagless and the only product is molten Fe–Si alloy drained from
the bottom and carbon monoxide (CO)
effluent gas which burns at the top of the furnace, combining with the
atmospheric oxygen to become CO2 which is
released through a stack after scrubbing as per applicable environment
regulations."

The CO that was not transmuted to Si and Fe is burned as CO2 and vented
then scrubbed. Neither C nor O combined chemically with Fe–Si as per
chemical analysis. But carbon was thought to transmute to Si and Fe as per
Carbon Arc LENR experiments [5–8] in which anomalous generation of Si and
Fe was observed..

Using the estimated energy release values of 17.13 MeV/atom of Si or 49.58
MeV per atom of Fe given in
Appendix B, for the postulated nuclear transmutation reactions, it can be
shown that corresponding to 4.25 ton of metal
transmutation, the power generated should have been the equivalent of the
total thermal power generated by hundreds
of 1000MWe nuclear power stations.

Appendix B contains the expected excess energy gain from nuclear binding
energy released in the transmutation process.

This situation goes to show that transmutation  produced by the LENR
reaction is not a major source of excess heat,

Richard P. *Feynman:* It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it
doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with *experiment*,
it's wrong.


On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 1:36 AM  wrote:

> In reply to  Jürg Wyttenbach's message of Thu, 9 May 2019 12:14:15 +0200:
> Hi,
> [snip]
>
> Note that I said "physical inclusion of CO *molecules*". I meant that
> the
> actual molecules were included chemically, not through a nuclear process.
> A chemical reaction would explain all the facts, without a crater.
>
> >Hi
> >
> >Please stop to discuss this nonsensical issue.
> >The original claim would indicate that they fired a Giga x Giga ton bomb
> >in their furnace...
> >
> >As we have no reports about a crater the conclusion is clear.
> >
> >Of course 12C + 16O can happen but with no notable mass increase!! Else
> >: > Bomb...
> >
> >Jürg
> >
> >
> >
> >Am 09.05.19 um 00:59 schrieb mix...@bigpond.com:
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >>
> >> Re:-
> >>
> http://coldfusioncommunity.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/244_JCMNS-Vol24.pdf
> >>
> >> The mass of a CO molecule = 12+16= 28 which matches the mass of Si28.
> >> The mass of 2 CO molecules = 56 which matches that of Fe56.
> >>
> >> Physical inclusion of CO molecules within the Fe-Si matrix could thus
> explain
> >> the anomalous weight increase, as well as the reduction in CO
> combustion above
> >> the furnace, and also the lack of nuclear reaction energy (due to lack
> of
> >> nuclear reactions).
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >>
> >> Robin van Spaandonk
> >>
> >> local asymmetry = temporary success
> >>
> >>
> >>
> Regards,
>
>
> Robin van Spaandonk
>
> local asymmetry = temporary success
>
>