Re: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats
I must've missed a few classes; are you talking about creating or removing heat in a general sense, starting an atomic nuclear reaction, or simply producing energy? I joined the group last night and, obviously, missed a few emails, too. Just curious.Bob Lee Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 12:56 PM, Bob Higgins wrote: The nonlinearity must be attached to the cathode itself because a THz signal will not go through even 1 micron of electrolyte. In the Letts-Cravens-Hagelstein experiment, a tiny amount of gold was added to the cathode to produce the nonlinearity. Did it work because it formed a diode junction? Was the nonlinearity plasmon related? That is presently unknown - but it was produced directly on the cathode, which is the target. On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 1:50 PM Sean Logan wrote: Sounds fascinating. May I ask: what are you using as your non-linear element, to cause the two laser beams to heterodyne? Is it the target they shine on, itself? On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 15:19 Bob Higgins wrote: Sean, What you are describing is entirely possible. Also, diode lasers can be driven into modes that produce sidebands just at the threshold of ordinary output - but it is hard to control the sidebands without an expensive "loop" receiver and some kind of lock-in control. Using 2 lasers is pretty easy. I am presently working on a dual laser experiment with 2 tunable diode lasers combined optically onto a single fiber. The wavelength separation (determines the beat frequency) is continuously monitored in a high resolution fiber spectrometer. We are nearly ready to run experiments with this hardware. On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 2:10 PM Sean Logan wrote: Could you use an Optical Parametric Amplifier to create your desired sidebands? Using one laser as the "signal input" and the other as the "pump" should give you an output containing sum and difference frequencies (sidebands, or heterodynes). On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 12:29 H LV wrote: In my estimation Rumford's theory is the seed of an alternate theory of radiation. It could still grow and blossom into a well developed mathematical theory of heat. I am interested in beat theory because it resonants (pun intended) with Rumford`s theory of hot and cold radiation, sinceboth involve _differences_. A beat frequency is given by the difference of two frequencies and in Rumford`s theory two types of differences are important.The first is that the relative difference in temperature between two bodies determines which body is producing more hot or more cold radiation. The second is that the sign and magnitude of the difference between the received frequency and the oscillator's frequency determines whether the radiation increases or decreases the energy of the oscillator. Harry On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 3:21 PM JonesBeene wrote: The beat frequency they were after was in the THz range and this was in order to fit Hagelstein’s theory of optical phonons – … and yes - small gain was seen. However, in the earlier similar work without beat frequencies – single laser only - much higher gain (order of magnitude more) has been reported by Letts/Cravens. The reproducibility was apparently better in the later experiments - but I do not think the lower result with the beat frequency is leading anywhere. From: H LV Beat frequencies of two lasers irradiating a surface appear in _Stimulation of Optical Phonons in Deuterated Palladium_ by Dennis Letts and Peter Hagelstein https://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/LettsDstimulatio.pdf Harry
Re: [Vo]:moire patterns -- beats without waves
Thank you for posting the Mr. Wizard video. It was an excellent demonstration. Here is a simply circuit which performs non-linear mixing of two waves. http://spaz.org/~magi/grh/img/am-circuit-1.jpg The diode is the non-linear circuit element which does the heterodyning. This circuit is an "unbalanced mixer". We used it in EE223 to create AM signals. Another way two waves can heterodyne is if they go through a coil wound on a core which is saturated. On Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 10:11 H LV wrote: > I think in principle it should be possible to generate moire patterns with > fractal characteristics. > > Harry > > On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 12:05 PM Terry Blanton wrote: > >> Moire is marvelous but fractals are fantastic! >> >> https://youtu.be/vr-jtDjTaIc?t=1680 >> >> On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 8:28 AM H LV wrote: >> >>> >>> Moire patterns are like beats without waves. >>> >>> Moiré Kit >>> 1.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nn1MqCMa1M >>> >>> 2. Moire pattern effect >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZYpEMp87Xo >>> >>> 3. What Are Moire Patterns? (Mr. Wizard) >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8Jf9SVsT38 >>> >>> 4. Freaky Dot Patterns - Numberphile >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAja2jp1VjE >>> >>> Harry >>> >>> >>> >>>
Re: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats
The nonlinearity must be attached to the cathode itself because a THz signal will not go through even 1 micron of electrolyte. In the Letts-Cravens-Hagelstein experiment, a tiny amount of gold was added to the cathode to produce the nonlinearity. Did it work because it formed a diode junction? Was the nonlinearity plasmon related? That is presently unknown - but it was produced directly on the cathode, which is the target. On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 1:50 PM Sean Logan wrote: > Sounds fascinating. May I ask: what are you using as your non-linear > element, to cause the two laser beams to heterodyne? Is it the target they > shine on, itself? > > On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 15:19 Bob Higgins wrote: > >> Sean, >> >> What you are describing is entirely possible. Also, diode lasers can be >> driven into modes that produce sidebands just at the threshold of ordinary >> output - but it is hard to control the sidebands without an expensive >> "loop" receiver and some kind of lock-in control. >> >> Using 2 lasers is pretty easy. I am presently working on a dual laser >> experiment with 2 tunable diode lasers combined optically onto a single >> fiber. The wavelength separation (determines the beat frequency) is >> continuously monitored in a high resolution fiber spectrometer. We are >> nearly ready to run experiments with this hardware. >> >> On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 2:10 PM Sean Logan wrote: >> >>> Could you use an Optical Parametric Amplifier to create your desired >>> sidebands? Using one laser as the "signal input" and the other as the >>> "pump" should give you an output containing sum and difference frequencies >>> (sidebands, or heterodynes). >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 12:29 H LV wrote: >>> In my estimation Rumford's theory is the seed of an alternate theory of radiation. It could still grow and blossom into a well developed mathematical theory of heat. I am interested in beat theory because it resonants (pun intended) with Rumford`s theory of hot and cold radiation, since both involve _differences_. A beat frequency is given by the difference of two frequencies and in Rumford`s theory two types of differences are important.The first is that the relative difference in temperature between two bodies determines which body is producing more hot or more cold radiation. The second is that the sign and magnitude of the difference between the received frequency and the oscillator's frequency determines whether the radiation increases or decreases the energy of the oscillator. Harry On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 3:21 PM JonesBeene wrote: > > > The beat frequency they were after was in the THz range and this was > in order to fit Hagelstein’s theory of optical phonons – > > > > … and yes - small gain was seen. > > > > However, in the earlier similar work without beat frequencies – > single laser only - much higher gain (order of magnitude more) has been > reported by Letts/Cravens. > > > > The reproducibility was apparently better in the later experiments - > but I do not think the lower result with the beat frequency is leading > anywhere. > > > > > > > > *From: *H LV > > > > Beat frequencies of two lasers irradiating a surface appear in > > _Stimulation of Optical Phonons in Deuterated Palladium_ by Dennis > Letts and Peter Hagelstein > > https://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/LettsDstimulatio.pdf > > > > Harry > > > > >
Re: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats
Sounds fascinating. May I ask: what are you using as your non-linear element, to cause the two laser beams to heterodyne? Is it the target they shine on, itself? On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 15:19 Bob Higgins wrote: > Sean, > > What you are describing is entirely possible. Also, diode lasers can be > driven into modes that produce sidebands just at the threshold of ordinary > output - but it is hard to control the sidebands without an expensive > "loop" receiver and some kind of lock-in control. > > Using 2 lasers is pretty easy. I am presently working on a dual laser > experiment with 2 tunable diode lasers combined optically onto a single > fiber. The wavelength separation (determines the beat frequency) is > continuously monitored in a high resolution fiber spectrometer. We are > nearly ready to run experiments with this hardware. > > On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 2:10 PM Sean Logan wrote: > >> Could you use an Optical Parametric Amplifier to create your desired >> sidebands? Using one laser as the "signal input" and the other as the >> "pump" should give you an output containing sum and difference frequencies >> (sidebands, or heterodynes). >> >> >> On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 12:29 H LV wrote: >> >>> In my estimation Rumford's theory is the seed of an alternate theory of >>> radiation. It could still grow and blossom into a well >>> developed mathematical theory of heat. >>> >>> I am interested in beat theory because it resonants (pun intended) with >>> Rumford`s theory of hot and cold radiation, since >>> both involve _differences_. A beat frequency is given by the difference >>> of two frequencies and in Rumford`s theory two types of differences are >>> important.The first is that the relative difference in temperature between >>> two bodies determines which body is producing more hot or more cold >>> radiation. The second is that the sign and magnitude of the difference >>> between the received frequency and the oscillator's frequency determines >>> whether the radiation increases or decreases the energy of the oscillator. >>> >>> Harry >>> >>> On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 3:21 PM JonesBeene wrote: >>> The beat frequency they were after was in the THz range and this was in order to fit Hagelstein’s theory of optical phonons – … and yes - small gain was seen. However, in the earlier similar work without beat frequencies – single laser only - much higher gain (order of magnitude more) has been reported by Letts/Cravens. The reproducibility was apparently better in the later experiments - but I do not think the lower result with the beat frequency is leading anywhere. *From: *H LV Beat frequencies of two lasers irradiating a surface appear in _Stimulation of Optical Phonons in Deuterated Palladium_ by Dennis Letts and Peter Hagelstein https://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/LettsDstimulatio.pdf Harry >>>
Re: [Vo]:moire patterns -- beats without waves
I think in principle it should be possible to generate moire patterns with fractal characteristics. Harry On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 12:05 PM Terry Blanton wrote: > Moire is marvelous but fractals are fantastic! > > https://youtu.be/vr-jtDjTaIc?t=1680 > > On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 8:28 AM H LV wrote: > >> >> Moire patterns are like beats without waves. >> >> Moiré Kit >> 1.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nn1MqCMa1M >> >> 2. Moire pattern effect >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZYpEMp87Xo >> >> 3. What Are Moire Patterns? (Mr. Wizard) >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8Jf9SVsT38 >> >> 4. Freaky Dot Patterns - Numberphile >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAja2jp1VjE >> >> Harry >> >> >> >>
Re: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats
On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 9:16 AM JonesBeene wrote: > If you haven’t seen it- this entry below addresses the semantics issue, > which is the bulk of the problem of cold radiation. > > > > > https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/193054/thermodynamics-possibility-of-cold-radiation > > > Before the current understanding of radiation and heat mostly solidified into a consensus in the second half of the 19th century, there were deep disagreements about the nature of heat and radiation which could not be resolved semantically. BTW It is important to keep in mind that there is a distinction between the laws of thermodynamics and theories of heat and radiation, because it is possible that the latter could change again without violating the former. One commenter at the link reasoned: <> I have thought about this too, but I think this is a strawman argument. The commenter presumes that if cold radiation is real, then it must necessarily be the mirror image of hot radiation. Harry > A related and possibly more interesting problem is that of “cold > electricity” which supposedly is a concept which goes back to Tesla (the > guy not the car). > > > > Indeed “cold electricity” can be identified with hole carriers instead of > electrons … but this is not the same as cold radiation (unless you want to > define it that way)/ > > > > But if it is real, then maybe cold electricity should be called > “holicity” > > > > > > > > > > > > *From: *Bob Higgins > > > > Could the "cold radiation" be considered something like hole carriers in a > semiconductor? > > > > On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 1:29 PM H LV wrote: > > In my estimation Rumford's theory is the seed of an alternate theory of > radiation. It could still grow and blossom into a well > developed mathematical theory of heat. > > I am interested in beat theory because it resonants (pun intended) with > Rumford`s theory of hot and cold radiation, since > > both involve _differences_. A beat frequency is given by the difference > of two frequencies and in Rumford`s theory two types of differences are > important.The first is that the relative difference in temperature between > two bodies determines which body is producing more hot or more cold > radiation. The second is that the sign and magnitude of the difference > between the received frequency and the oscillator's frequency determines > whether the radiation increases or decreases the energy of the oscillator. > > > > Harry > > >
Re: [Vo]:moire patterns -- beats without waves
Hi Harry, interesting thought... The film camera isn't a pattern contributor toward Moire interference patterns, but it does have a random granularity in the photo emulsion. Could the 'freaky patterns' that are created by overlaying random dots, linked below, qualify as your "sampling device" to produce interference, as you mentioned below? --- My amateur compulsion stumbled onto a Moire interference pattern of Newton's rings simulated in POVRay ray-trace model do some profound patterns in oversampling at the extreme. The interference patterns between two grids were modeled at thousands to a millions of orders of magnitude difference in scale. Amazing patterns are produced. I have one posted on my home page (Please excuse: only found on my personal Media Wiki): https://groupkos.com/dev The Newton's rings, if shown to radical resolution in a computer model, will interfere with the pixel grid --even when the interference grids are radically separated in scale --> because the interference is occurring in the computer model. The most radical pattern effect is the pattern-acceleration. The acceleration patterns of Newton's rings literally shifted the patterns into earlier and later patterns on a timeline of shifting patterns. The simple interference of a circle and a square (pixel) made /a lens to patterns in the future of the time-line animation/ (not shown particularly at the link above, unless you notice the larger dots wobble in place over time). The animation of one shrinking pattern of two-patterns interfering -when viewed over the time-line of frames like a movie, has periodic pulsations of lensing events. This can be seen in the animation at the link above (some patience for the large GIF to download). Could the time-line fractality of Moire-patterns be doing interesting things in the heat of the sub-quantum energies to make them pulsate over time (per the Fermi–Pasta–Ulam–Tsingou recurrence effect in discussion on another thread)? But at the quantum reality, what are the two periodic effects involved with the interference? Or is the heat of quantum reality pulsing with the interference of many dimensional grid works? don On 10/15/2020 8:41 AM, H LV wrote: If a Moire pattern can be photographed using a film camera then there are moire patterns which exist without a sampling device. Harry On Thu., Oct. 15, 2020, 9:37 a.m. Bob Higgins, mailto:rj.bob.higg...@gmail.com>> wrote: The Moire effect is the result of spatial undersampling an image, and the Moire pattern is the aliasing. This is the reason that Canon and many other camera manufacturers put an optical blurring filter in front of the image sensor. The blurring filter is a spatial lowpass filter to prevent the aliasing of spatial frequencies above the sampling frequency / 2. Sampling is fundamentally a nonlinear process and thus the beat can occur. That it can show up visually in the eye testifies to the sampling within the eye. On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 6:28 AM H LV mailto:hveeder...@gmail.com>> wrote: Moire patterns are like beats without waves. Moiré Kit 1.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nn1MqCMa1M 2. Moire pattern effect https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZYpEMp87Xo 3. What Are Moire Patterns? (Mr. Wizard) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8Jf9SVsT38 4. Freaky Dot Patterns - Numberphile https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAja2jp1VjE Harry -- Stay hydrated!
Re: [Vo]:moire patterns -- beats without waves
Moire is marvelous but fractals are fantastic! https://youtu.be/vr-jtDjTaIc?t=1680 On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 8:28 AM H LV wrote: > > Moire patterns are like beats without waves. > > Moiré Kit > 1.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nn1MqCMa1M > > 2. Moire pattern effect > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZYpEMp87Xo > > 3. What Are Moire Patterns? (Mr. Wizard) > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8Jf9SVsT38 > > 4. Freaky Dot Patterns - Numberphile > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAja2jp1VjE > > Harry > > > >
Re: [Vo]:moire patterns -- beats without waves
If a Moire pattern can be photographed using a film camera then there are moire patterns which exist without a sampling device. Harry On Thu., Oct. 15, 2020, 9:37 a.m. Bob Higgins, wrote: > The Moire effect is the result of spatial undersampling an image, and the > Moire pattern is the aliasing. This is the reason that Canon and many > other camera manufacturers put an optical blurring filter in front of the > image sensor. The blurring filter is a spatial lowpass filter to prevent > the aliasing of spatial frequencies above the sampling frequency / 2. > > Sampling is fundamentally a nonlinear process and thus the beat can > occur. That it can show up visually in the eye testifies to the sampling > within the eye. > > On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 6:28 AM H LV wrote: > >> >> Moire patterns are like beats without waves. >> >> Moiré Kit >> 1.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nn1MqCMa1M >> >> 2. Moire pattern effect >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZYpEMp87Xo >> >> 3. What Are Moire Patterns? (Mr. Wizard) >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8Jf9SVsT38 >> >> 4. Freaky Dot Patterns - Numberphile >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAja2jp1VjE >> >> Harry >> >> >> >>
Re: [Vo]:moire patterns -- beats without waves
The Moire effect is the result of spatial undersampling an image, and the Moire pattern is the aliasing. This is the reason that Canon and many other camera manufacturers put an optical blurring filter in front of the image sensor. The blurring filter is a spatial lowpass filter to prevent the aliasing of spatial frequencies above the sampling frequency / 2. Sampling is fundamentally a nonlinear process and thus the beat can occur. That it can show up visually in the eye testifies to the sampling within the eye. On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 6:28 AM H LV wrote: > > Moire patterns are like beats without waves. > > Moiré Kit > 1.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nn1MqCMa1M > > 2. Moire pattern effect > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZYpEMp87Xo > > 3. What Are Moire Patterns? (Mr. Wizard) > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8Jf9SVsT38 > > 4. Freaky Dot Patterns - Numberphile > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAja2jp1VjE > > Harry > > > >
Re: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats
Rumford's used an acoustic model of hot and cold radiation to give equal existence to hot and cold radiation but the acoustic model has serious limitations. I think a hole model would still treat hot radiation as fundamental and cold radiation as only a secondary phenomena. Moire patterns might be a better way to model hot and cold radiation. Two underlying patterns would interfere to produce spots of light and dark, i.e hot and cold. Moiré Matrix and Penrose Pattern & Figure-ground at ILLUSION https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5Gd5FWvEP8 Harry Harry On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 6:20 PM Bob Higgins wrote: > Could the "cold radiation" be considered something like hole carriers in a > semiconductor? > > On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 1:29 PM H LV wrote: > >> In my estimation Rumford's theory is the seed of an alternate theory of >> radiation. It could still grow and blossom into a well >> developed mathematical theory of heat. >> >> I am interested in beat theory because it resonants (pun intended) with >> Rumford`s theory of hot and cold radiation, since >> both involve _differences_. A beat frequency is given by the difference >> of two frequencies and in Rumford`s theory two types of differences are >> important.The first is that the relative difference in temperature between >> two bodies determines which body is producing more hot or more cold >> radiation. The second is that the sign and magnitude of the difference >> between the received frequency and the oscillator's frequency determines >> whether the radiation increases or decreases the energy of the oscillator. >> >> Harry >> >
RE: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats
If you haven’t seen it- this entry below addresses the semantics issue, which is the bulk of the problem of cold radiation. https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/193054/thermodynamics-possibility-of-cold-radiation A related and possibly more interesting problem is that of “cold electricity” which supposedly is a concept which goes back to Tesla (the guy not the car). Indeed “cold electricity” can be identified with hole carriers instead of electrons … but this is not the same as cold radiation (unless you want to define it that way)/ But if it is real, then maybe cold electricity should be called “holicity” From: Bob Higgins Could the "cold radiation" be considered something like hole carriers in a semiconductor? On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 1:29 PM H LV wrote: In my estimation Rumford's theory is the seed of an alternate theory of radiation. It could still grow and blossom into a well developed mathematical theory of heat. I am interested in beat theory because it resonants (pun intended) with Rumford`s theory of hot and cold radiation, since both involve _differences_. A beat frequency is given by the difference of two frequencies and in Rumford`s theory two types of differences are important.The first is that the relative difference in temperature between two bodies determines which body is producing more hot or more cold radiation. The second is that the sign and magnitude of the difference between the received frequency and the oscillator's frequency determines whether the radiation increases or decreases the energy of the oscillator. Harry
Re: [Vo]:moire patterns -- beats without waves
Two applications of the Moiré effect. The Moiré Effect Lights That Guide Ships Home https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d99_h30swtM Harnessing the moiré effect to make transparent images https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8pJYsrlywc (This is a high tech moiré pattern that was made using completely transparent media.) Harry On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 8:28 AM H LV wrote: > > Moire patterns are like beats without waves. > > Moiré Kit > 1.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nn1MqCMa1M > > 2. Moire pattern effect > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZYpEMp87Xo > > 3. What Are Moire Patterns? (Mr. Wizard) > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8Jf9SVsT38 > > 4. Freaky Dot Patterns - Numberphile > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAja2jp1VjE > > Harry > > > >
[Vo]:moire patterns -- beats without waves
Moire patterns are like beats without waves. Moiré Kit 1.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nn1MqCMa1M 2. Moire pattern effect https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZYpEMp87Xo 3. What Are Moire Patterns? (Mr. Wizard) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8Jf9SVsT38 4. Freaky Dot Patterns - Numberphile https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAja2jp1VjE Harry
