Re: [Vo]:Initial Criticality
In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Thu, 9 Mar 2023 17:51:31 -0500: Hi, [snip] >I think it is not practical to equip most parking places in an office >parking lot with chargers or simple "dischargers." I think the cost of this >would far exceed the benefits from distributed generation. But I could be >wrong! I think you might be. While true that they would occasionally be damaged, I suspect that the use obtained from them while undamaged would exceed the cost of repair by a large margin, especially if mounted retractably, like the cord in your vacuum cleaner. And of course they can be mounted on steel poles surrounded by a guard rail, as you mentioned. Roughly comparable with the trolley bays seen in the parking lots of supermarkets. They can also be placed in a long narrow central island/peninsular with parking bays fronting onto the sides of the island, and bumper blocks in each parking bay to stop the car wheels from going any further. Most of the wiring would be under the island. As the world shifts to electric cars, such an arrangement is likely to become more common, regardless of whether or not they are bi-directional. > >Another problem may arise. I hope that self-driving cars become common. I >hope that self driving taxi services become common. So that many people >take a Uber-like taxi-like self-driving car to the office, and the car then >drives off to pick up another passenger. This will reduce the need for >parking spaces. It should be cheaper for the passenger, since it shares the >cost of the vehicle, insurance and maintenance. Plus you don't have to pay >the driver. If I could summon a self-driving taxi quickly, I would not own >a car. Since this reduces the number of parking spaces and parked cars, it >reduces the total capacity of distributed generation by EVs. I think we may have to wait a bit longer for this. Governments are going to be rather hesitant about self driving cars with no driver at all behind the wheel. Cloud storage:- Unsafe, Slow, Expensive ...pick any three.
Re: [Vo]:Initial Criticality
Robin wrote: > Hi, > > My point is that no chargers would be needed at all, because they are > effectively already built into vehicles. > I get that. That is why I wrote, "a charger (or discharger)." But even with a much simpler device, you still need wires under the parking lot, and receptacles of some sort. Like 220 VAC plugs, I guess. People will run over the plugs. The plugs will get flooded by rain. The pavement will crack and break them. Anything in a parking lot gets a lot of abuse. As I said, chargers in parking lots today are above the curb, and sometimes surrounded by heavy bars to prevent damage. Yet I have seen ones that someone ran into. Dented and scratched. I think it is not practical to equip most parking places in an office parking lot with chargers or simple "dischargers." I think the cost of this would far exceed the benefits from distributed generation. But I could be wrong! Another problem may arise. I hope that self-driving cars become common. I hope that self driving taxi services become common. So that many people take a Uber-like taxi-like self-driving car to the office, and the car then drives off to pick up another passenger. This will reduce the need for parking spaces. It should be cheaper for the passenger, since it shares the cost of the vehicle, insurance and maintenance. Plus you don't have to pay the driver. If I could summon a self-driving taxi quickly, I would not own a car. Since this reduces the number of parking spaces and parked cars, it reduces the total capacity of distributed generation by EVs.
Re: [Vo]:Initial Criticality
In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Thu, 9 Mar 2023 10:34:42 -0500: Hi, My point is that no chargers would be needed at all, because they are effectively already built into vehicles. The only reason chargers are used now, is to convert AC to DC to rapidly charge the vehicle, which is a requirement for highway driving where one may only stop for a lunch break, but not in office block parking lots. Granted, AC charging would be slower than rapid DC charging, but quite adequate for office block parking lots, where a vehicle is likely to be parked for hours at a time. AC charging is already possible with current vehicles. However to act as distributed remote storage for renewable energy, the connection between vehicle and grid needs to be bi-directional. This implies two things. 1) That the building and the vehicle be able to communicate with one another. This can be done through the AC connection itself. There is already a standard for this in place:- ISO 15118 2) That the vehicle be able to deliver AC as well as receiving it. This is currently possible to a limited extent with V2L vehicles, however usually via a separate outlet in the vehicle, rather than via the same AC connection used to charge the vehicle, which would need to change, and vehicles would need to be designed to allow more power to be delivered via the connection. >Robin wrote: > > >> Electric cars have DC batteries but AC motors. That means they need to >> have powerful built in inverters. When the car is >> parked, these inverters essentially do nothing, but could be gainfully >> employed to allow charge/discharge of the parked >> vehicle. > > >My point is that it would be very expensive to put a charger (or >discharger) in every parking place in an office park. Not only expensive, >but many of them would be smashed up by people parking carelessly. I have >seen damaged chargers in public parking places. Chargers have to be placed >above a curb. Putting hundreds of them in a parking lot would be >prohibitively expensive. Whereas putting one in your house can be cheap. >As I said, my daughter did this in downtown Washington DC for $100. Plus, >the landlord had to add another 220 VAC connector. The dryer was too far >from the front window. DC regulations say this is okay, as long as you >cover the cord with a bright orange sidewalk cover used in construction. > >Also, until most vehicles are electric, it would not be worth putting in >many chargers (or dischargers). Most would not be used. As it is now, I >have seen many chargers that I do not think are used at places like the FAA >parking lot near my house. They look abandoned. People think that an EV >charger is similar to a gas station. It is on a highway, but in urban >Atlanta it is not, because nearly every EV owner charges at home. >Commuters do not need a public charger, except on rare occasions. I had an >EV for several months, and I never used a public charger. (I gave it to my >daughter when I closed my office on account of COVID.) > >People tend to think that a new technology will be similar to an old one. >They think we need gas stations with ICE, so we will need charging stations >with EV. The difference is, you cannot fill a gasoline tank at home, but >you can recharge an EV. Not only that, but recharging at home is more >convenient than filling a gas tank. It takes only a moment. > >There are many EVs in Atlanta. Around 40,000, I think. Cloud storage:- Unsafe, Slow, Expensive ...pick any three.
Re: [Vo]:Initial Criticality
Robin wrote: > Electric cars have DC batteries but AC motors. That means they need to > have powerful built in inverters. When the car is > parked, these inverters essentially do nothing, but could be gainfully > employed to allow charge/discharge of the parked > vehicle. My point is that it would be very expensive to put a charger (or discharger) in every parking place in an office park. Not only expensive, but many of them would be smashed up by people parking carelessly. I have seen damaged chargers in public parking places. Chargers have to be placed above a curb. Putting hundreds of them in a parking lot would be prohibitively expensive. Whereas putting one in your house can be cheap. As I said, my daughter did this in downtown Washington DC for $100. Plus, the landlord had to add another 220 VAC connector. The dryer was too far from the front window. DC regulations say this is okay, as long as you cover the cord with a bright orange sidewalk cover used in construction. Also, until most vehicles are electric, it would not be worth putting in many chargers (or dischargers). Most would not be used. As it is now, I have seen many chargers that I do not think are used at places like the FAA parking lot near my house. They look abandoned. People think that an EV charger is similar to a gas station. It is on a highway, but in urban Atlanta it is not, because nearly every EV owner charges at home. Commuters do not need a public charger, except on rare occasions. I had an EV for several months, and I never used a public charger. (I gave it to my daughter when I closed my office on account of COVID.) People tend to think that a new technology will be similar to an old one. They think we need gas stations with ICE, so we will need charging stations with EV. The difference is, you cannot fill a gasoline tank at home, but you can recharge an EV. Not only that, but recharging at home is more convenient than filling a gas tank. It takes only a moment. There are many EVs in Atlanta. Around 40,000, I think.
