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Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: I seriously doubt that the hidden costs of your use of electricity is completely covered by what you pay. That is correct. Want to pay more? Yes, I do want to pay more, and I shall, as soon as green electricity becomes available. I have signed up for it. Say, $500-600 per month more? No, the difference is nowhere near as large as this. At least not for someone who consumes as little electricity as I do. The hidden costs of gasoline are far greater than the hidden costs of electricity. In Georgia, the hidden costs are mainly for pollution and global warming caused by coal. Unfortunately, 63% of our electricity comes from coal. We have no wind resources and no untapped hydro, so the only alternative is more nuclear power (presently 27%). I would be happy to pay extra for all-nuclear power. See: http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/nuclear/page/at_a_glance/states/statesga.html Much electricity is derived from oil, and almost all of it is from fossil fuels. No, only about 3% of electricity is derived from oil, and that includes fractions of oil that cannot be used for any other purpose. It is mainly used for peak generators in some rural areas, and even this is declining. Petroleum power generation was never large; it peaked in 1978 at about 22% of U.S. generation (365 billion kWH), and it has fallen to 3% (90 billion kWH, 2002 data). See the Annual Energy Review, EIA. You get no free ride either, buddy. But again, of course it is different when it is YOU. You are the one demanding a free ride, not me. No you do not. That's the problem. Your fuel costs you $2 per gallon and it costs the rest of us $3 extra in hidden costs. You are forcing the rest of us to bail you out. Buses and trains use fossil fuels as well. They use much less per passenger mile. That's the point. Plus they are flexible. In California, where only 1% of electricity is generated from coal, electric trains produce far less global warming than they do in Georgia or New York. As I said above, so does most electricity in this nation, and the world in fact...particularly the hell than is China...with their coal plants they must be accruing a SERIOUS hidden cost... maybe we should destroy that nation entirely for the good of the planet? They are destroying their own nation. If they would build wind and nuclear power generators instead, they will prevent this destruction. (They do not have much solar energy where the energy is needed.) Logic such as yours can be dragged out to ridiculous extremes. That is called the slippery slope logical fallacy. See: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/slippery-slope.html Again, you want to pay a few hundred extra per month for electricity? No? Then screw off attempting to control our lives. This is completely incorrect. In California, electricity costs only a little more than in Georgia or New York, and they produce far less pollution and carbon per kWH. If present trends continue they will produce no carbon at all 30 to 50 years from now, and the cost per kWH will be lower than our coal-based electricity. No it should not. It is a sure thing. You might as well debate whether cold fusion is real. Tell that to Freeman Dyson, Richard Lindzen, Fred Singer, etc. They question what is going on. Dyson also does not believe in cold fusion. I do not know about these others. But it is not a matter of opinion; it is a matter of fact -- that is, scientific evidence. If these people deny the facts about cold fusion or global warming, and you beleive them, you have have made another logical error. See: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-authority.html I suppose you think they are all idiots. With regard to this subject, yes. People like Park feel the same way about cold fusion researchers. Yes, but they are wrong, and I am right. I have the facts and the science to back up my claims, whereas they do not. It is the same with your assertion that clean electricity would cost me hundreds more. That assertion can be checked against actual cost data from California, Germany, nuclear power in Georgia, and other sources. I can prove that clean electricity would not cost me hundreds. Therefore you are wrong. This is not a matter of opinion. You really don't get it do you? If you put that kind of tax on travel, you will DESTROY the US economy overnight. Nonsense. The U.S. is made of sterner stuff than that. We Americans accomplished great things in the past. We won terrible wars in 1860 (won and lost), 1918 and 1945. We can fix this problem too, and we can certainly live with a tax. Our economic competitors in Europe and Asia do. I for one do not think that Americans are weaker, stupider or less resourceful than people in Europe and Asia. I have been to these places, lived there, and I am not afraid to compete with them. People will starve, riot, the cities will
Re: [Vo]: Outrage !!
On 3/11/07, Kyle R. Mcallister [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Who pays the hidden costs of extracting that nuclear fuel, and cleaning up the radioactive crap belched out by these facilities? None of them are clean, they leak radioactive water into the environment all the time. Actually, for a given amount of energy, coal produces more radioactive waste than nuclear power: http://russp.org/nucfacts.html Terry
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On 3/13/07, Jed Rothwell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: Tell that to Freeman Dyson, Richard Lindzen, Fred Singer, etc. They question what is going on. Dyson also does not believe in cold fusion. I do not know about these others. But it is not a matter of opinion; it is a matter of fact -- that is, scientific evidence. If these people deny the facts about cold fusion or global warming, and you beleive them, you have have made another logical error. See: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-authority.html No, because you'd never base everything on a an appeal to authority would you?
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Terry Blanton wrote: On 3/11/07, Kyle R. Mcallister [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Who pays the hidden costs of extracting that nuclear fuel, and cleaning up the radioactive crap belched out by these facilities? None of them are clean, they leak radioactive water into the environment all the time. Actually, for a given amount of energy, coal produces more radioactive waste than nuclear power I mentioned this in Chapter 2 of my book. We should note that Kyle Mcallister is quite right that there have been serious problems with radioactive water leaking from nuclear reactors. The worst case in recent years in the U.S. was the Connecticut Yankee fiasco. However, properly designed and maintained nuclear reactors do not leak radioactive water, whereas even a properly designed coal plant spews radioactive garbage everywhere, along with carbon dioxide. The radioactive garbage has been reduced, but it cannot be eliminated with present-day technology, or reduced to levels as low as that of a properly designed and maintained fission reactor. Perhaps it is possible to design a coal plant that does not do this, and there are even designs for plants that capture and sequester the CO2, but I do not think these coal plants could be made cost-effective. I expect fission reactors would be cheaper per kWH. In geographical areas where wind or intense sunlight are available, these sources are already cheaper than fission reactors, and far cheaper than coal when you take into account hidden costs. Unfortunately, as I said, we do not have wind or cheap solar resources in Georgia. A nagging problem with fission reactors is that when something does go drastically wrong -- as happened with TMI, Connecticut Yankee, Rancho Seco, Brown's Ferry and so on -- the consequences can be severe. These incidents each cost billions of dollars to clean up. Years ago there was a lot of debate about whether the nuclear power surcharge will be enough to decommission and clean-up nuclear plants. I think this debate has subsided, because several plants were decommissioned and satisfactorily cleaned up, so we now have a better handle on how much it costs. We can be fairly confident that the trust fund is large enough. Also, some of the old mines were cleaned up. However, some experts still dispute this. The cost of long-term storage of nuclear waste is a huge question mark, but I believe this problem is mainly politics rather than a fiscal problem. Once the political and scientific issues are settled I do not think it will cost much to bury the waste. (I mean it will be cheap per kWH. The actual sums will be tremendous.) - Jed
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Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: People will starve, riot, the cities will burn. and engagements will be called off. Harry
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Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: Then give me my Monte Carlo back and tax me less, with 28mpg average, and even less if and when I drive the efficiency up higher. Of course people who drive more efficient cars should pay less! That is my point. People who walk should pay practially nothing. Beg to differ here. And in case you didn't notice, this is not Europe nor Japan. We are no less clever or resourceful than they are. I do not think Americans require special coddling. If they can pay the full cost for their energy, we can too. You are saying that the rest of us to pay for your lifestyle. The hell I am. I work for a living and pay my taxes . . . But not enough to cover the cost of pollution or the war -- which is mainly a war for oil. That is why the nation runs a deficit, and why the pollution problem has not been fixed. To where? Most of us cannot afford to leave...transitioning means time with no income, and the cost to move. That's why I said the rest of the country has to help, for a while. If I move X miles, under your system, I also have to pay X mileage tax. Either YOU pay it, or I pay it. Since you are the one who is moving you should pay it. I pay for my car, my fuel, upkeep and repairs on my own, you don't. No you do not. That's the problem. Your fuel costs you $2 per gallon and it costs the rest of us $3 extra in hidden costs. You are forcing the rest of us to bail you out. As far as global warming, I don't want to hear it. It is still being debated, and should be. No it should not. It is a sure thing. You might as well debate whether cold fusion is real. As far as pollution, some of us are actively trying to find ways to reduce it or get rid of it by experimentation. Do you do experiments, or just rock back and forth in your chair and shout orders to us dirty, polluting little people? What are YOU doing to make a difference? I am helping people do cold fusion experiments, in many ways. Can't be made economical with today's technologyyet it worked 50 years ago. Exactly. Resources are scarcer. The Chinese and Indians now want oil and they can afford to buy it. Technology is ever changing. How about Pelosi and her jet she has been demanding? You and the media have this story backwards. She wants to ride commercial jets. The government asked her to take a small government jet instead for security reseans. She said 'either provide a larger jet or I will take a commercial flight.' I think the security should butt out an let her fly commercial. There is no significant danger. Why are you preaching to me about help lasting for 20 years? I was the one who complained about multitudes of blacks and other minorities on welfare for no reason other than not wanting to work. Why do you not see that YOU too want something for nothing? You want us to put you on permanent welfare and support your oil addiction, and let you live in a part of the country where there is not enough work. I do not see any difference between your demands and the demands of people who do not want to work at all. Both of you cost me. At least the people who do not work are not polluting or forcing us into war in the Middle East. Frankly, I would rather pay you to sit on your butt than to burn up lots of gasoline. There is no reason we cannot make synthetic fuels using energy derived from solar power, as far as I know. I think it would be more practical to use the solar power directly, for electricity and heat. To make synthetic fuel nuclear energy might be a better choice. This has nothing to do with how the middle and lower class people live their lives, it has to do with the people on top not being willing to get off their asses and do something about it. Only the top people at U.S. corporations. Toyota is selling hundreds of thousands of Prius automobiles. If everyone drove one, the U.S. would be exporting oil. GM is selling SUVs. Our corporations and consumers are at fault. Some leaders in the U.S., such as the U.S. Toyota managers, and some U.S. consumers -- such as me -- have done a lot to fix these problems. Actually Cold fusion ain't the damned answer either, and it looks like it never will be in the forseeable future. I disagree. If it has been developed properly starting in 1989, I am pretty sure that by now it would supply most of energy, or all of our energy. Post something here explaining exactly how to do it and make it generate enough excess heat to boil me a pot of coffee . . . I have posted 500 papers explaining exactly how to do it. No one on earth has circulated more information about cold fusion than I. Of course it is not easy, and you cannot reduce it to single formula, but that is true of all other energy systems and complex technology. I cannot post a message here explaining exactly how to make a Pentium processor or a nuclear fission reactor either. Dog eat dog, eh? Ok. How about a federal ban on any
Re: [Vo]: Outrage !!
- Original Message - From: Jed Rothwell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 8:50 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Outrage !! But not enough to cover the cost of pollution or the war -- which is mainly a war for oil. That is why the nation runs a deficit, and why the pollution problem has not been fixed. I seriously doubt that the hidden costs of your use of electricity is completely covered by what you pay. Want to pay more? Say, $500-600 per month more? Much electricity is derived from oil, and almost all of it is from fossil fuels. You get no free ride either, buddy. But again, of course it is different when it is YOU. Either YOU pay it, or I pay it. Since you are the one who is moving you should pay it. If I have to pay for something, then you have no say over what I do. If you or anyone else attempts to have a say, it better not be within striking range of myself, or there will be a serious problem. I pay for my car, my fuel, upkeep and repairs on my own, you don't. No you do not. That's the problem. Your fuel costs you $2 per gallon and it costs the rest of us $3 extra in hidden costs. You are forcing the rest of us to bail you out. Buses and trains use fossil fuels as well. As I said above, so does most electricity in this nation, and the world in fact...particularly the hell than is China...with their coal plants they must be accruing a SERIOUS hidden cost... maybe we should destroy that nation entirely for the good of the planet? Logic such as yours can be dragged out to ridiculous extremes. Again, you want to pay a few hundred extra per month for electricity? No? Then screw off attempting to control our lives. As far as global warming, I don't want to hear it. It is still being debated, and should be. No it should not. It is a sure thing. You might as well debate whether cold fusion is real. Tell that to Freeman Dyson, Richard Lindzen, Fred Singer, etc. They question what is going on. I suppose you think they are all idiots. People like Park feel the same way about cold fusion researchers. There is no black and white here, we need far more studies and less talk, and to not try and destroy our civilization in the process...which is what your plan will do. You really don't get it do you? If you put that kind of tax on travel, you will DESTROY the US economy overnight. People will starve, riot, the cities will burn. People are already getting tired of the crap they have to put up with from the lazy on the one hand, and the high-minded on the other hand. They will not keep putting up with more forever. Your tax will also affect heavy trucking across state lines, so the price of food for you to eat will skyrocket as well. Do you really understand that you can't just play around with values and settings in the real world economy like that? It is not self-correcting forever. Prod it too much and it will crash sadistic sarcasm...much like the climate will crash if I crank my Buick up later todayheh heh heh. /sadistic sarcasm I am helping people do cold fusion experiments, in many ways. Do tell. Exactly. Resources are scarcer. The Chinese and Indians now want oil and they can afford to buy it. Technology is ever changing. And of course, they can burn it without having to pay the hidden costs the rest of us have to pay forKyoto exemption being but one weasel-out they get. Anyone with half a brain can see that carbon-credit trading is political and profit driven. It has little or nothing to do with actually changing things. You and the media have this story backwards. She wants to ride commercial jets. The government asked her to take a small government jet instead for security reseans. She said 'either provide a larger jet or I will take a commercial flight.' I think the security should butt out an let her fly commercial. There is no significant danger. Now I did not know that. I would have expected the media to have defended her, as one of their own. Probably the truth didn't make a very interesting story, however. Shame on me for listening to the mass media. Why do you not see that YOU too want something for nothing? So do you, we are all interconnected. You want us to put you on permanent welfare and support your oil addiction, and let you live in a part of the country where there is not enough work. I do not see any difference between your demands and the demands of people who do not want to work at all. Both of you cost me. At least the people who do not work are not polluting or forcing us into war in the Middle East. Frankly, I would rather pay you to sit on your butt than to burn up lots of gasoline. You see no difference between people who provide a service to the people around them, by working and making a product for the consumer to consume (sometimes literally) and people who say screw it, I'm gonna sit on my ass and do nothing
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- Original Message - From: John Berry To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 11:02 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Outrage !! Great, so $1360 a month, . Ends up about $800 for me a month, not including picking up my fiancee from her workplace. I suppose she could quit working at the grocery store and save that gasolinemaybe high-minded individuals like Jed don't need to eat? Do they derive energy from cold fusion instead of food? I imagine someone will suggest I use the train or the bus. Won't work. No mass transit on that scale here. Believe me, when times were really hard a few years back, I tried to find a way to take the bus to work. I would either get there a couple hours early, and home a couple hours late, ruining my day and that of my fiancee, making her have to walk a long way home from work in the cold and snow, or I would get to work an hour late, and leave an hour early. It doesn't work. Jed wants this idiotic tax on mileage. But he has no solution to the real problem. This is a typical reaction these days: working on real, hardball, nuts-and-bolts solutions is just too hard...so instead, lets just be lazy and put blanket solutions over the problems to try and feel good about having done something. I have heard it suggested that global warming deniers be punished as criminals. What about people who propose blanket solutions that do more harm than help? let's hope Jed doesn't get a job in government The Republicans would like it thoughit would make Bush's reign of terror look benign in comparison. But at the very least Jed's figures are 10 times too high at least, possible s much as 100 times too high. It is not just that it is that the proposed solution is absolute stupidity. But again, proposing stupidity is easy, finding real answers (or at least trying to) is bloody hard. It comes down to how motivated a person is. Or maybe I am just wasting my time looking for answers. I'll come clean a bit for a moment, and reveal a small part of my personal research, which is, trying to develop add-ons for internal combustion engines that dramatically improve efficiency and lower emissions, and in a way that is simple to repair, cheap enough for anyone, and can be adapted to existing engines. I have had failures, I have had successes. I pushed the mileage of my previous vehicle, a 1986 Chevrolet Monte Carlo with a 5.0L V8 up to 28mpg on the highway. This was with simple modifications, like a custom made camshaft, improving the spark delivery, beefing up the ignition system and timing advance, and a lot of trial and error with the Edelbrock carburetor. 28mpg is better than most passenger cars get (when tested in real life, not on the dyno), even by today's standards (excepting the hybrids, which are by no means the poor-worker's car). The exhaust had almost no smell to it, disturbingly little. This was with no catalytic converters, no AIR system, no evaporative emissions system, no EGR valve, no crap of that nature that serves only to net the dealer a lot of money when it invariably fails. I had not progressed yet to putting an exhaust heat driven system on it to further increase the efficiency (to my knowledge, that part is somewhat novel, so I won't get into it here) nor did I get a chance to spray atomized water into the intake, allowing me to further lean the mixture and advance timing without spark knock. It was before I got to do this, that the ultra-left high-minded people decided that my car was not acceptable to drive, for lack of emissions systems and having a swapped motor. When I tried to explain what I was doing, they said no. I tried to register it custom, they said no. I begged them to do a 4 gas analysis to prove that it was clean, they refused to look at it. Isn't it ironic that the high-minders who want to save us all from supposed global warming are the ones who actively seek out and destroy research? Isn't it ironic that if Jed got his way, all the money I make would be diverted to paying his stupid tax, and there would be none left for me to use to look for real world solutions, instead of his easy chair proposals? Much less for me to provide for my family? Hell, I'm not even married to Natalia yet and I am already taking care of her family! Her father in law apparently has ALS (Lou Gehrig's disease), so I have to help with that as well. Am I required to? No. Am I obligated to by my beliefs? YES. I spend nothing on myself besides my research, which ultimately is for the service of mankind. I spend on others to help. You want to tax all of my income away, Jed, so I can do no help for others? You are a worse enemy to the people than any poor bastard driving a junker car. The hurt and wake of destruction you would bring, should you ever ascend to a position of power is staggering. --Kyle
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- Original Message - From: John Berry To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 8:31 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Outrage !! Turn up the heater, do go for a drive in the summer and find less depressing music and maybe environment. Unfortunately, I can't turn off my thoughts. My mind is always racing, I don't get times when I have complete relaxation of the mind. But hey, a drive sounds nice. I reckon I will take the long way to the bank this morning, and the long way home. Of course there is an answer to all of this, but it won't be found in your current mindset... You are right. When I am depressed, I am not nearly so productive as when I am in a more positive mindset. Be proactive and productive, change things don't just reduce how fast you are taking a part in destroying the world, be a force for good not a smaller force for bad. I'm trying to. Believe me. Its just hard, sometimes so hard it hurts. Thank you for your reply, I appreciate it. --Kyle
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I confess that I pulled the toll of $1 per mile out of a hat. The correct figure should be ~$0.25 per mile. This is based on the average fuel efficiency of U.S. cars (20 mpg) and the cost and damage caused by burning a gallon of gas ($5). The cost including buiding roads, and damage includes environmental destruction, war and other costs not covered by drivers. The cost of accidents is covered by drivers, with insurance. With present day gasoline technology all we have to is charge $5 per gallon tax, which is what they charge in Europe and Japan. It doesn't hurt them and it will not hurt us. Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: Ends up about $800 for me a month, not including picking up my fiancee from her workplace. I suppose she could quit working at the grocery store and save that gasolinemaybe high-minded individuals like Jed don't need to eat? Do they derive energy from cold fusion instead of food? I imagine someone will suggest I use the train or the bus. Won't work. No mass transit on that scale here. You are saying that the rest of us to pay for your lifestyle. I don't mind contributing to a depressed area of the country for a decade or so, but I think that if you cannot maintain your way of life over long periods without massive help from other people, you should move. In this case, you want me to pay for your transportation either directly in cash, or indirectly by suffering from more pollution, global warming and wars for oil. You way of life is not sustainable and it cannot be made economical with today's technology, so you must abandon it. Of course the rest of us should pitch in to help you make the transition, but not to permanently support you. The same goes for the small, independent farmer who is forever demanding huge infusions of tax money. I do not think farmers deserve decades of help any more than programmer, hairdressers, or taxi drivers do. Just because farming is an ancient way of life and programming is new, I see no reason why farmers are privileged or why the rest of us should pay them to maintain their lifestyle. In the end, this is a capitalist, free-market country, and we all have to play by capitalist rules. That is as it should be. It is not pure dog-eat-dog capitalism, and we should help people in distress, but help should not last for 10 or 20 years. - Jed
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- Original Message - From: Jed Rothwell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 10:15 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Outrage !! I confess that I pulled the toll of $1 per mile out of a hat. The correct figure should be ~$0.25 per mile. This is based on the average fuel efficiency of U.S. cars (20 mpg) and the cost and damage caused by burning a gallon of gas ($5). The cost including buiding roads, and damage includes environmental destruction, war and other costs not covered by drivers. The cost of accidents is covered by drivers, with insurance. Then give me my Monte Carlo back and tax me less, with 28mpg average, and even less if and when I drive the efficiency up higher. What do you pay for the roads with then? With present day gasoline technology all we have to is charge $5 per gallon tax, which is what they charge in Europe and Japan. It doesn't hurt them and it will not hurt us. Beg to differ here. And in case you didn't notice, this is not Europe nor Japan. This is our country (apparently not yours, you don't seem to like it much), if you like the way things are done overseas so much, please, go there. You are saying that the rest of us to pay for your lifestyle. The hell I am. I work for a living and pay my taxes, quite a bit of which will pay for the lazy who choose not to work. Can you read? We are all in this together, one way or another. If there are no mechanics, you will not drive, because you will have no one to fix your plastic Prius. Or if you take the bus, what if the bus breaks down? Does it fix itself? If there are no little-guy machinists and contractors, you won't get any services from them. Ditto for all the hundreds of other things you personally need every day to maintain your lifestyle. Strangle us out of existence, and you will begin to feel the heat overnight, personally. I don't mind contributing to a depressed area of the country for a decade or so, but I think that if you cannot maintain your way of life over long periods without massive help from other people, you should move. To where? Most of us cannot afford to leave...transitioning means time with no income, and the cost to move. If I move X miles, under your system, I also have to pay X mileage tax. And as I said, I have maintained my life so far with NO help from others. In fact, I have helped THEM where possible, with what little I have. Again CAN YOU READ? In this case, you want me to pay for your transportation either directly in cash, or indirectly by suffering from more pollution, global warming and wars for oil. You way of life is not sustainable and it cannot be made economical with today's technology, so you must abandon it. Of course the rest of us should pitch in to help you make the transition, but not to permanently support you. I pay for my car, my fuel, upkeep and repairs on my own, you don't. As far as global warming, I don't want to hear it. It is still being debated, and should be. As far as pollution, some of us are actively trying to find ways to reduce it or get rid of it by experimentation. Do you do experiments, or just rock back and forth in your chair and shout orders to us dirty, polluting little people? What are YOU doing to make a difference? Can't be made economical with today's technologyyet it worked 50 years ago. Wow, that logic would really impress Mr. Spock. And as far as pitching in to help, why don't you try and actually make a difference, get your hands dirty working on something, and stop trying to micromanage other people's lives. I don't want your money. I don't want permanent support, nor am I receiving it. If you are implying that I am getting help from how little I pay to drive, then everyone who drives is getting help, including the extremely wealthy. How about Pelosi and her jet she has been demanding? Bet that jet doesn't get good mileage. Tsk Tsk on the emissions too. Or Al Gore and his incredible waste of electricity in his giant mansion. *I* am supposed to change my life, when people like these high-minded jerkoffs are contributing FAR more to polluting this earth than my entire family? What the hell is wrong with you people?! The same goes for the small, independent farmer who is forever demanding huge infusions of tax money. I do not think farmers deserve decades of help any more than programmer, hairdressers, or taxi drivers do. Just because farming is an ancient way of life and programming is new, I see no reason why farmers are privileged or why the rest of us should pay them to maintain their lifestyle. In the end, this is a capitalist, free-market country, and we all have to play by capitalist rules. That is as it should be. It is not pure dog-eat-dog capitalism, and we should help people in distress, but help should not last for 10 or 20 years. Why are you preaching to me about help lasting for 20 years? I
[Vo]: Outrage !!
This is the Petrocracy at works, folks: http://www.herald-review.com/articles/2007/03/01/news/local_news/1021491.txt
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I'm afraid their ordeal might not be over. The Feds will be next. This will become a problem for Tesla and with BEVs in general. This is also why the Gov't needs to sell a fuel . . . some kind of fuel. Highways are maintained by the federal excise tax on fuel. If you're not selling fuel, you have no $$ for highways and the corruption that goes with it. BTW, Tesla is rumored to have cut a deal with Ford for Fusion Coasters. What's a coaster? you might say. Well, a coaster is a automobile without a drive train. No need to waste the $$ on buying the unnecessary IC Engine (my new name . . . ICE is too cool a name for those stinkers) or tranny. Just pop in your Bettery and your Torque machine and awwaay you go! Terry On 3/9/07, Jones Beene [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is the Petrocracy at works, folks: http://www.herald-review.com/articles/2007/03/01/news/local_news/1021491.txt
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Terry Blanton wrote: This will become a problem for Tesla and with BEVs in general. This is also why the Gov't needs to sell a fuel . . . some kind of fuel. Highways are maintained by the federal excise tax on fuel. If you're not selling fuel, you have no $$ for highways and the corruption that goes with it. I do not think this would be a problem for the government. If cars run on electricity, they can easily tax electricity. If they run on cold fusion, the government can almost as easily tax mileage based on odometer readings, using some sort of digital odometer. The government can begin doing this after about a million people switch over to the new fuel, when the lost revenue becomes significant. I do not know whether highway taxes are more likely to invite corruption than other kinds, but I think we should have them. I seldom drive, and I know people in cities who never drive. It is unfair to ask us to pay for the highways we do not use. Of course it is okay to ask us to pay for part of them, but heavy drivers should pay much more, and trucks even more, since heavy vehicles wear out roads more quickly. I favor wider use of road tolls, using automatic detection devices rather than toll booths, so that noone has to slow down. Perhaps on-board GPS units would do the job. I think we should charge automobile drivers $1 per mile, and make public transport such as buses and trains free. Automobile drivers cause much more environmental harm than people riding on MARTA trains. - Jed
Re: [Vo]: Outrage !!
- Original Message - From: Jed Rothwell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 4:07 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Outrage !! I do not know whether highway taxes are more likely to invite corruption than other kinds, but I think we should have them. I seldom drive, and I know people in cities who never drive. I honestly don't know if this is a bad idea or a good idea, I don't know. However, I do find it amusing that here in Vortexland (and everywhere else for the most part) any suggestion for changing something having to do with hitting us up for more money to drive generally has the qualifier this doesn't apply to me though... or some such derivation. I drive a long way each day to work and back, compared to many, and probably a long way in your opinion. About 40 miles round trip. I have no choice, the economy here is devastated and will only get worse. You can do nothing here without permits for this and regulations for that, and so everything is gone. This was once a big steel area...now all the steel here is from damned China. We have to fight to make a living. Heating bills here in this frozen wasteland are enormous. We are taxed out of our homes here, literally. Those taxes are largely wasted on pork projects and the lazy. I do not want help from these corrupt people, but even if I did, I couldn't get it for a few reasons: 1., I work and make too much money, 2., I am the wrong race. That isn't racism either, its simple fact of observation. I've been with friends who try as hard as they can, and needed some help during the coldest parts of winter, as they went for assistance downtown. They were told in no uncertain terms that they were not eligible due to income (too much of it, so called) and due to not being a minority. To tax us further, without something giving somewhere, will destroy us more. I'm just a lowly mechanic (by day anyways) and make very little. I imagine many of you high minded dreamers here on Vortex make far more and could handle this. What do you say to us? If we go, who will fix your cars? I'd like to see some of you try to fix a modern electronicized, over-emissionized, plastic-and-aluminum, engine shoehorned into the tiny engine bay car with the Bible sized wiring diagram. You will quite simply be screwed over royally. Try doing this on a hybrid, and you are adding even more difficulty. We can barely do it at our shop, as the crooks at Toyota will not sell us the tools we need. Want to change your own transmission fluid in your Mercedes-Benz? Good luck without your blue-collar mechanic's shop... Mercedes-Benz sells you the car without a dipstick! MB WORKSHOP ONLY printed in nice friendly letters on the transaxle dipstick handle with no dipstick connected to it. If you just guess, and overfill the transmission, oopsfoaming of the fluid and the transmission is done. To go futher on about this issue of taxes and regulations, did you know that all new cars will soon be required to have sensors in the wheels to alert you of low tire pressure? I have to go to a meeting on my own time, and which I am not paid for, on March 27th to be taught how to use the new tire valves and how to reset the sensors and such should we need to plug a nail hole in a tire. Gone bye-bye are the days of punching the plug into the tire, fill 'er with air and drive off into the sunset...now it is all computerized. We need a damned SILICON tax! Who is going to pay for this crap? You are. And me, eventually, when all the old cars are gone and I have to buy something post-1995. No one needs tire pressure sensors. What people need is a working brain to get off their lazy, stupid, computer-jockey asses and learn how to make sure 32psi is in their tires. (That's PSI too...no bloody kilopascals, thanks much) New York also has the NYVIP joke as well... New York Vehicle Inspection Program. It is a computer that scans the barcode of your registration sticker so that you can do an inspection on the vehicle in question. When the computer works, of course. The Empire state, with its vast wealth and variety of resources bought the cheapest computers and peripherals they could find, and cobbled it together with ape-level intelligence. Then requires us to buy this thing at $3500, or sorry, we can't do inspections anymore. If your car is older than 1996, you are lucky. If 1996 or newer, you get the OBDII connector plugged into the DLC port under the dashboard, and the computer (hopefully) communicates with your vehicle's ECM, and sees if the emissions are kosher. If not, you fail inspection. Butits not necessarily if your emissions are excessive. If your Service Engine Soon or Check Engine light is on for any reason, the computer will fail the car. You will be charged too, we can't cancel the inspection and just let you leave without getting the inspection done and get it fixed (or fix
Re: [Vo]: Outrage !!
Turn up the heater, do go for a drive in the summer and find less depressing music and maybe environment. Of course there is an answer to all of this, but it won't be found in your current mindset... Be proactive and productive, change things don't just reduce how fast you are taking a part in destroying the world, be a force for good not a smaller force for bad. On 3/10/07, Kyle R. Mcallister [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - From: Jed Rothwell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 4:07 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Outrage !! I do not know whether highway taxes are more likely to invite corruption than other kinds, but I think we should have them. I seldom drive, and I know people in cities who never drive. I honestly don't know if this is a bad idea or a good idea, I don't know. However, I do find it amusing that here in Vortexland (and everywhere else for the most part) any suggestion for changing something having to do with hitting us up for more money to drive generally has the qualifier this doesn't apply to me though... or some such derivation. I drive a long way each day to work and back, compared to many, and probably a long way in your opinion. About 40 miles round trip. I have no choice, the economy here is devastated and will only get worse. You can do nothing here without permits for this and regulations for that, and so everything is gone. This was once a big steel area...now all the steel here is from damned China. We have to fight to make a living. Heating bills here in this frozen wasteland are enormous. We are taxed out of our homes here, literally. Those taxes are largely wasted on pork projects and the lazy. I do not want help from these corrupt people, but even if I did, I couldn't get it for a few reasons: 1., I work and make too much money, 2., I am the wrong race. That isn't racism either, its simple fact of observation. I've been with friends who try as hard as they can, and needed some help during the coldest parts of winter, as they went for assistance downtown. They were told in no uncertain terms that they were not eligible due to income (too much of it, so called) and due to not being a minority. To tax us further, without something giving somewhere, will destroy us more. I'm just a lowly mechanic (by day anyways) and make very little. I imagine many of you high minded dreamers here on Vortex make far more and could handle this. What do you say to us? If we go, who will fix your cars? I'd like to see some of you try to fix a modern electronicized, over-emissionized, plastic-and-aluminum, engine shoehorned into the tiny engine bay car with the Bible sized wiring diagram. You will quite simply be screwed over royally. Try doing this on a hybrid, and you are adding even more difficulty. We can barely do it at our shop, as the crooks at Toyota will not sell us the tools we need. Want to change your own transmission fluid in your Mercedes-Benz? Good luck without your blue-collar mechanic's shop... Mercedes-Benz sells you the car without a dipstick! MB WORKSHOP ONLY printed in nice friendly letters on the transaxle dipstick handle with no dipstick connected to it. If you just guess, and overfill the transmission, oopsfoaming of the fluid and the transmission is done. To go futher on about this issue of taxes and regulations, did you know that all new cars will soon be required to have sensors in the wheels to alert you of low tire pressure? I have to go to a meeting on my own time, and which I am not paid for, on March 27th to be taught how to use the new tire valves and how to reset the sensors and such should we need to plug a nail hole in a tire. Gone bye-bye are the days of punching the plug into the tire, fill 'er with air and drive off into the sunset...now it is all computerized. We need a damned SILICON tax! Who is going to pay for this crap? You are. And me, eventually, when all the old cars are gone and I have to buy something post-1995. No one needs tire pressure sensors. What people need is a working brain to get off their lazy, stupid, computer-jockey asses and learn how to make sure 32psi is in their tires. (That's PSI too...no bloody kilopascals, thanks much) New York also has the NYVIP joke as well... New York Vehicle Inspection Program. It is a computer that scans the barcode of your registration sticker so that you can do an inspection on the vehicle in question. When the computer works, of course. The Empire state, with its vast wealth and variety of resources bought the cheapest computers and peripherals they could find, and cobbled it together with ape-level intelligence. Then requires us to buy this thing at $3500, or sorry, we can't do inspections anymore. If your car is older than 1996, you are lucky. If 1996 or newer, you get the OBDII connector plugged into the DLC port under the dashboard, and the computer (hopefully) communicates with your vehicle's ECM, and sees
Re: [Vo]: Outrage !!
On 3/9/07, Kyle R. Mcallister [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I drive a long way each day to work and back, compared to many, and probably a long way in your opinion. About 40 miles round trip. The average commute in Atlanta is 34 miles one way. I personally do 23 miles one way. We have many who commute from South Carolina every day. I have a co worker who commutes from Chattanooga. T
Re: [Vo]: Outrage !!
Great, so $1360 a month, let's hope Jed doesn't get a job in government. Personally I think that user pays is generally a poor idea, I'm more of a flat rate all you can eat kind of guy, it is much more freeing, people don't need to be obsessing over every mile like that. But at the very least Jed's figures are 10 times too high at least, possible s much as 100 times too high. On 3/10/07, Terry Blanton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 3/9/07, Kyle R. Mcallister [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I drive a long way each day to work and back, compared to many, and probably a long way in your opinion. About 40 miles round trip. The average commute in Atlanta is 34 miles one way. I personally do 23 miles one way. We have many who commute from South Carolina every day. I have a co worker who commutes from Chattanooga. T
