Re: [Vo]:Is Rossi's 1MW demo supposed to output steam, or just hot water under 100 C?
On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 8:17 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: When I queried DGT about comparing their products using glycol to AR's use of diathermic oil, I got this response: We do not wish to comment any further the differences between products and any lab prototype, which are huge. :-) T
Re: [Vo]:Is Rossi's 1MW demo supposed to output steam, or just hot water under 100 C?
OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson svj.orionwo...@gmail.com wrote: On a related topic I have also been under the impression that Rossi was NOT planning on producing steam as the final output product - only hot water below the temperature of 100 C. That is what he said months ago. Evidently he changed his mind. It would be rather challenging to test a hot water heater at that power level. You need a large flow of water; much more than the water mains in an ordinary office can deliver. You need something like a fire hydrant flow. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Is Rossi's 1MW demo supposed to output steam, or just hot water under 100 C?
From Jed: On a related topic I have also been under the impression that Rossi was NOT planning on producing steam as the final output product - only hot water below the temperature of 100 C. That is what he said months ago. Evidently he changed his mind. It would be rather challenging to test a hot water heater at that power level. You need a large flow of water; much more than the water mains in an ordinary office can deliver. You need something like a fire hydrant flow. This does not bode well from my POV. Granted it is conceivable that Rossi DOES have access to a fire hydrant's worth of flowing water, and running that much water through his prototype is what he intends to do - but I suspect not. It is also conceivable that Rossi was originally going to do just that - until perhaps one of his engineers sat Rossi down and ran the numbers for him. Engineer: It's impossible, Rossi! We don't have access to that much water flow. Water pressure will drop to zero for the rest of the town. ;-) Rossi: Merda! Then steam it will be! Engineer: But...! Rossi: ...Trust me! The eCat encasings can take the pressure. I know what I'm going! Or whatever... The above conversation is, of course, pure conjecture on my part. Nevertheless, what seems to concern a number of individuals is the fact that the eCat's external configuration does not appear to be designed in a manner that would adequately confine high pressure. Any kind of gas contained under high levels of pressure are typically held within thick metal encased spheres or cylindrically shaped tanks precisely because such shapes are the safest practical configurations known to man. Nothing of the sort seems to have been incorporated into Rossi's eCats, and to be honest that astonishes me. Rossi's eCats are boxy - rectangular in shape. It suggests to me that Rossi had not originally intended to run the current eCat configuration in a manner that would produce a lot of internal steam that would subsequently be held under pressure. But then, perhaps that's the point: Rossi still does not intend to maintain (or deliberately contain) high level of steam under pressure. Perhaps Rossi intends that as the steam is generated and as the steam invariably begins to expand it will immediately exit through the output pipe quickly and efficiently. If so, what remains to be seen is whether the current pluming configuration will be up to the job of making sure no high levels of internal pressure are generated. I hope nobody steps on a hose... or a pipe doesn't get accidently crinkled somewhere. In any case, choosing a boxy rectangular shape has to have introduced the potential of generating horrible stress points. Seems to me that if high pressure steam does get generated these boxy eCat configurations are potential disaster waiting to happen. I hope I'm wrong. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Is Rossi's 1MW demo supposed to output steam, or just hot water under 100 C?
Hello Steven, I have seen evidence of a check valve at the output of the ECAT tested in October. This would be expected if many units are to make a contribution to the final steam output port. Indications are that it opens cleanly when the pressure within the ECAT is around 2 bars. I am not aware of changes between the ECAT tested and the ones within the 1 Megawatt system. It sounds like steam is the final product. Dave -Original Message- From: OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson svj.orionwo...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wed, Oct 19, 2011 10:45 am Subject: [Vo]:Is Rossi's 1MW demo supposed to output steam, or just hot water under 100 C? Thanks for all the interesting input pertaining to whether Rossi may ave already tested his one MW prototype. There are a lot of revailing opinions on that matter. I have appreciated reading them ll. I hope others have found the thread equally educational. ;-) On a related topic I have also been under the impression that Rossi as NOT planning on producing steam as the final output product - only ot water below the temperature of 100 C. I have been under the mpression that the 1 MW prototype was to show prospective ntrepreneurs that this prototype (at least in its current onfiguration) could be utilized for the task of heating a large uilding, say a factory floor. If Rossi's current goal was NEVER to enerate steam (as the final product) then perhaps concerns about team pressure getting out of hand might... just might be a moot oint. However, I may be terribly mistaken on this point, particularly if it S presumed that lots of confined steam held under dangerous pressures ill have to be an inevitable part of the prototype's internal perational parameters - even if the water that eventually exits, et's say to heat the radiators belonging to a factory floor remain ell under 100 C. What's the prevailing assessment on this steam issue? Regards teven Vincent Johnson ww.OrionWorks.com ww.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Is Rossi's 1MW demo supposed to output steam, or just hot water under 100 C?
Actually pretty easy, just parallel together 3-4 truck radiators or 10 car radiators (quite cheap) with standard cooling fans on them and pump water around with an open header tank. Or spray hot water in air stream from a fan and collect it in a catch tank for re-use (as thermal power stations do), with smaller quantity of make-up water (basically equivalent to steam system) Either option should only cost a few $1000's to put together. And would alleviate issues with pressure vessel code-compliance. I'd be a lot happier with the safety of such a setup with all of the reactors fully submerged and at lower pressures. Though of course it is unlikely Rossi would do something so sensible. On 19 October 2011 16:04, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson svj.orionwo...@gmail.com wrote: On a related topic I have also been under the impression that Rossi was NOT planning on producing steam as the final output product - only hot water below the temperature of 100 C. That is what he said months ago. Evidently he changed his mind. It would be rather challenging to test a hot water heater at that power level. You need a large flow of water; much more than the water mains in an ordinary office can deliver. You need something like a fire hydrant flow. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Is Rossi's 1MW demo supposed to output steam, or just hot water under 100 C?
On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 11:51 AM, OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson svj.orionwo...@gmail.com wrote: This does not bode well from my POV. Granted it is conceivable that Rossi DOES have access to a fire hydrant's worth of flowing water, and running that much water through his prototype is what he intends to do - but I suspect not. Either I dreamed it or someone recently cross posted from Rossi's blog that he planned to use Therm oil, or something of the sort, instead of water in the primary. I probably make it up in my own mind. I'm sure he did not say Therminol. T
Re: [Vo]:Is Rossi's 1MW demo supposed to output steam, or just hot water under 100 C?
Robert Lynn wrote: Actually pretty easy, just parallel together 3-4 truck radiators or 10 car radiators (quite cheap) with standard cooling fans on them and pump water around with an open header tank. Wow. You are right. A large truck produces 425 hp, which is 316 kW. It takes a lot more than that in thermal power. I did not realize trucks are so powerful. I do not know efficient truck radiators are but that sounds like it would work. The water in the tank would end up getting very hot. That can be accounted for. The calorimetry is not as challenging as I though. I have no experience measuring such large amounts of heat, and no idea how it is done, but I'm sure there are many experts who know. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Is Rossi's 1MW demo supposed to output steam, or just hot water under 100 C?
Dennis Cravens pointed out to me that you do not need a fire hydrant water main to do this test with water only, instead of steam. You can use a heavy-duty pump and pump the water from a swimming pool, through the device, and back to the swimming pool. That is another clever idea which never occurred to me. I have not thought much about how to do this, because it is far from anything I've ever done or witnessed. I guess you would do this as flow calorimetry where the inlet temperature keeps rising. It is not generally a good idea let the inlet temperature fluctuate, but in this case I guess you have to live with that. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Is Rossi's 1MW demo supposed to output steam, or just hot water under 100 C?
I wrote: I guess you would do this as flow calorimetry where the inlet temperature keeps rising. It is not generally a good idea let the inlet temperature fluctuate, but in this case I guess you have to live with that. I should point out that Dennis has in mind using the temperature of the water in the swimming pool, rather than the flow Delta T. That seems tricky to me because the test will run for many hours and it is difficult to establish how much heat is lost from the swimming pool. You have to do a calibration with the giant heater. You could do both methods. You should. To do flow calorimetry, I suppose you would have to trust the manufacturer's faceplate rating for the large pump. That must be an approximate number. I have seen large gasoline-powered pumps used to drain houses after floods. They are impressive. I doubt that the rating is precise. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Is Rossi's 1MW demo supposed to output steam, or just hot water under 100 C?
The power requirements for a large truck are enormous. Maybe Rossi's 1 Megawatt steam generator is not as powerful as we are thinking as it would barely be capable of powering one of those trucks at full capacity(316 KW x 3). I see that the latest 1 Megawatt BIG CAT will need a slight size reduction to become a successful replacement for that truck engine. We have a long way to go. Dave -Original Message- From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wed, Oct 19, 2011 1:35 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Is Rossi's 1MW demo supposed to output steam, or just hot water under 100 C? Robert Lynn wrote: Actually pretty easy, just parallel together 3-4 truck radiators or 10 car radiators (quite cheap) with standard cooling fans on them and pump water around with an open header tank. Wow. You are right. A large truck produces 425 hp, which is 316 kW. It akes a lot more than that in thermal power. I did not realize trucks re so powerful. I do not know efficient truck radiators are but that ounds like it would work. The water in the tank would end up getting very hot. That can be ccounted for. The calorimetry is not as challenging as I though. I have no experience easuring such large amounts of heat, and no idea how it is done, but 'm sure there are many experts who know. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Is Rossi's 1MW demo supposed to output steam, or just hot water under 100 C?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Pacific_Big_Boy I already posted a picture of the above as an example of a machine that had thermal power of at least 10MW. Those locomotives were made around 1940. They ran at 80mph max speed. All locomotives of the Big Boy model worked for at least 20 years, and retired only because of arrival of more competitive diesel electric engines. The numbers are impressive compared to Rossi's plant. Those beasts were able to dissipate huge amounts of heat, since their thermodynamic efficiency was below 10% most of the time. Yet they were reliable machines. Rossi will have no safety problems with steam, assuming that he followed those ancient engineering lessons. There is no reason for him to use hot water. I guess the idea is some kind of district heating plant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_heating) using steam. Then do the scale up to electrical power when eventually E-cat will be able to support it. mic 2011/10/19 David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com: The power requirements for a large truck are enormous. Maybe Rossi's 1 Megawatt steam generator is not as powerful as we are thinking as it would barely be capable of powering one of those trucks at full capacity(316 KW x 3). I see that the latest 1 Megawatt BIG CAT will need a slight size reduction to become a successful replacement for that truck engine. We have a long way to go. Dave -Original Message- From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wed, Oct 19, 2011 1:35 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Is Rossi's 1MW demo supposed to output steam, or just hot water under 100 C? Robert Lynn wrote: Actually pretty easy, just parallel together 3-4 truck radiators or 10 car radiators (quite cheap) with standard cooling fans on them and pump water around with an open header tank. Wow. You are right. A large truck produces 425 hp, which is 316 kW. It takes a lot more than that in thermal power. I did not realize trucks are so powerful. I do not know efficient truck radiators are but that sounds like it would work. The water in the tank would end up getting very hot. That can be accounted for. The calorimetry is not as challenging as I though. I have no experience measuring such large amounts of heat, and no idea how it is done, but I'm sure there are many experts who know. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Is Rossi's 1MW demo supposed to output steam, or just hot water under 100 C?
Terry, you mean this? http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg53062.html mic 2011/10/19 Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com: On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 11:51 AM, OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson svj.orionwo...@gmail.com wrote: This does not bode well from my POV. Granted it is conceivable that Rossi DOES have access to a fire hydrant's worth of flowing water, and running that much water through his prototype is what he intends to do - but I suspect not. Either I dreamed it or someone recently cross posted from Rossi's blog that he planned to use Therm oil, or something of the sort, instead of water in the primary. I probably make it up in my own mind. I'm sure he did not say Therminol. T
RE: [Vo]:Is Rossi's 1MW demo supposed to output steam, or just hot water under 100 C?
Thanks again for the information. Didn't these just dissipate heat by venting the steam to the atmosphere? That seems wasteful. -Original Message- From: Michele Comitini [mailto:michele.comit...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 2:33 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Is Rossi's 1MW demo supposed to output steam, or just hot water under 100 C? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Pacific_Big_Boy I already posted a picture of the above as an example of a machine that had thermal power of at least 10MW. Those locomotives were made around 1940. They ran at 80mph max speed. All locomotives of the Big Boy model worked for at least 20 years, and retired only because of arrival of more competitive diesel electric engines. The numbers are impressive compared to Rossi's plant. Those beasts were able to dissipate huge amounts of heat, since their thermodynamic efficiency was below 10% most of the time. Yet they were reliable machines. Rossi will have no safety problems with steam, assuming that he followed those ancient engineering lessons. There is no reason for him to use hot water. I guess the idea is some kind of district heating plant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_heating) using steam. Then do the scale up to electrical power when eventually E-cat will be able to support it. mic 2011/10/19 David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com: The power requirements for a large truck are enormous. Maybe Rossi's 1 Megawatt steam generator is not as powerful as we are thinking as it would barely be capable of powering one of those trucks at full capacity(316 KW x 3). I see that the latest 1 Megawatt BIG CAT will need a slight size reduction to become a successful replacement for that truck engine. We have a long way to go. Dave -Original Message- From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wed, Oct 19, 2011 1:35 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Is Rossi's 1MW demo supposed to output steam, or just hot water under 100 C? Robert Lynn wrote: Actually pretty easy, just parallel together 3-4 truck radiators or 10 car radiators (quite cheap) with standard cooling fans on them and pump water around with an open header tank. Wow. You are right. A large truck produces 425 hp, which is 316 kW. It takes a lot more than that in thermal power. I did not realize trucks are so powerful. I do not know efficient truck radiators are but that sounds like it would work. The water in the tank would end up getting very hot. That can be accounted for. The calorimetry is not as challenging as I though. I have no experience measuring such large amounts of heat, and no idea how it is done, but I'm sure there are many experts who know. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Is Rossi's 1MW demo supposed to output steam, or just hot water under 100 C?
Probably a Freudian slip but I wrote: There is a reason why people nowadays demand ultrahigh-tech test-everything-to-the-n'th degree before you turn on the first time, and OSHA rules galore. It is a conspiracy to prevent innovation. I meant it is NOT a conspiracy to prevent innovation. That is what some people think all these government rules are intended to do. Some Republican politicians think that. There may be some truth to the idea. Having many rules raises the cost of developing new products, leaving only large corporations capable of doing it. It may lock out startup competition. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Is Rossi's 1MW demo supposed to output steam, or just hot water under 100 C?
Michele Comitini wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Pacific_Big_Boy I already posted a picture of the above as an example of a machine that had thermal power of at least 10MW. Those locomotives were made around 1940. They ran at 80mph max speed. . . . Sure. No one disputes that people have been using large heat engines for a long time. I suppose the first ones exceeding 1 MW thermal were made in the 1820s. The Great Western, the first big, successful oceangoing steamship was built in 1838 and had a 750 hp engine (560 kW). Given the inefficiency of steam engines at that time I suppose that was roughly 5 MW of steam. Here is a triple expansion marine steam engine rated 2500 hp (1.8 MW): http://www.lanevictory.org/laneVtour_museum2.php (Scroll down the page a little) That's roughly 5 MW of steam, which starts at high pressure and then works its way down to the large, low-pressure cylinder. Let me point out something about this engine. I do not know much about these things, but as I mentioned, my father spent years working on one, until a deck engine nearly killed him. I have heard a lot about what it was like working on them. If you made a mistake, or if a steam hose came off or something else went wrong, it could maim you for life or kill you faster than you can say knife. My father said there wasn't a voyage he made when he did not see someone at the docks in New York maimed, crushed or decapitated. Modern machines are much safer than these old ones, but untested prototype reactors like Rossi's are probably back to being dangerous. Right back to 1938. Especially when they are not designed by teams of experts with supercomputers at a leading industrial corporation. Any machine on the scale of a megawatt, and any steam production on that scale is inherently dangerous. It can be tamed, but you have to spend millions of dollars to do it. You probably need more than five people working on the project. Perhaps Rossi has consulted with experts and used supercomputer simulations. He is an experienced and successful engineer who has developed heavy diesel equipment. He understands how to do these things. But someone who recently had to sell his house to finance the project is not working on the kind of scale you expect to see in modern industrial RD. It sounds like a shoestring operation to me, and I do not think it is wise to build heavy equipment on a shoestring. There is a reason why people nowadays demand ultrahigh-tech test-everything-to-the-n'th degree before you turn on the first time, and OSHA rules galore. It is a conspiracy to prevent innovation. It is because our fathers and grandfathers worked with heavy equipment like marine engine, and with weapons and aircraft during WWII. They knew darn well what heavy equipment can do to you. After the war, people of my father's generation who had worked in industry, factories, ships, or in the army, went to college with G.I. Bill, and then went to work at places like the National Bureau of Standards. They put into place industrial reforms and new rules which revolutionized workplace safety and equipment safety. Nowadays it costs far more to develop machines that it used to. I think it cost $1 billion to develop the Prius. Believe me, these extra layers of safety are worth every penny. Every year, tens of thousands of lives are saved, and hundreds of thousands of people walk away from automobile accidents that would have sent them to the hospital decades ago. The same kinds of improvements have been made in engine rooms, mines, factories and everywhere else. if you want to know what industry was like 60 years ago look Russia and China, and the appalling casualty rates there. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Is Rossi's 1MW demo supposed to output steam, or just hot water under 100 C?
On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 5:38 PM, Michele Comitini michele.comit...@gmail.com wrote: Terry, you mean this? http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg53062.html Yes! He said he would use diathermic oil. This seems to be common in Italy with several patents held by Italian inventors. Here's a brief description: http://www.feasrl.com/eng/dettaglio_prodotto.asp?id=5 From what I can surmise with a limited review, this would seem to be ideal for the Rossi Reactor. Thanks, Michele. T
Re: [Vo]:Is Rossi's 1MW demo supposed to output steam, or just hot water under 100 C?
http://www.youreporter.it/foto_Incendio_alla_centrale_elettrica_foto_dei_pompieri_1_1 That electric transformer contained diathermic oil! I know it is not easy to handle as it can burn as any mineral oil. mic 2011/10/20 Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com: On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 5:38 PM, Michele Comitini michele.comit...@gmail.com wrote: Terry, you mean this? http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg53062.html Yes! He said he would use diathermic oil. This seems to be common in Italy with several patents held by Italian inventors. Here's a brief description: http://www.feasrl.com/eng/dettaglio_prodotto.asp?id=5 From what I can surmise with a limited review, this would seem to be ideal for the Rossi Reactor. Thanks, Michele. T
Re: [Vo]:Is Rossi's 1MW demo supposed to output steam, or just hot water under 100 C?
On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 7:42 PM, Michele Comitini michele.comit...@gmail.com wrote: http://www.youreporter.it/foto_Incendio_alla_centrale_elettrica_foto_dei_pompieri_1_1 That electric transformer contained diathermic oil! I know it is not easy to handle as it can burn as any mineral oil. Yes, Michele, I thought of that when I was researching diathermic oil. If one thinks there could be a steam explosion, imagine the disaster of an oil fire. T
Re: [Vo]:Is Rossi's 1MW demo supposed to output steam, or just hot water under 100 C?
2011/10/19 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com: I should point out that Dennis has in mind using the temperature of the water in the swimming pool, rather than the flow Delta T. That seems tricky to me because the test will run for many hours and it is I do not believe that megawatt demonstration is too tricky or difficult to do by sparging steam into swimming pool. Swimming pools are well insulated from bottom and sides, therefore all heat that is escaping is from the surface. We know the surface area exactly and I think that surface temperature is easy to monitor measuring the infrared radiation from the pool. Of course there are many other ways to establish good sense of surface temperature of the pool during the test. More or less accurately. Then it should be straight forward to calculate the major heat loss. Therefore pool would be easiest way to do the demonstration with reasonable accuracy. We do not need to worry about the stirring of the pool, if we go up to boiling point of water. A boiling swimming pool would be the most spectacular demonstration and it should suit well into Rossi's needs. Keep it simple! –Jouni
