[Vo]:Re: Is there an echo in here?
Jed-- What about gold? Bob From: Jed Rothwell Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 12:46 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Is there an echo in here? H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: If people stopped valuing flowers, the tulip bulb would cease to have value. True, but people have valued flowers in every culture, in every era in recorded history. It seems to be inborn. Or instinctual. So there is little chance that people will stop valuing them. Whereas people do stop valuing fad items such as pet rocks. Consuming anything other than food, water and housing might be considered a whim. Or optional. There is no chance out values will change so much that people stop buying pretty things such as paintings, clothing or flowers. Likewise if people stopped valuing computer science, bit coins would cease to have value. I would not say computer science. Computer science is valuable in its own right, and lucrative. Bitcoins are a product of computer science but their lure is they let you hide money transactions from governments. They are anonymous and untraceable (sez Krugman -- I wouldn't know). They are less effective as a way to store money, since the value fluctuates so much. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Re: Is there an echo in here?
Bob Cook frobertc...@hotmail.com wrote: Jed-- What about gold? That's a complicated subject! First, gold has considerable intrinsic value, for electronics, fillings and other medical uses, and so on, plus aesthetic value in jewelry. Second, in ancient times gold was an excellent means of exchange because amounts were limited by mining technology, and because it could not be faked. You can test for gold by primitive methods. You can measure gold density with Archimedes' principle, which was invented for that very purpose. Nowadays, I believe most economists consider the gold standard barbaric. I do not know enough about economics to comment in detail, but their arguments make sense to me. See, for example: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/23/opinion/krugman-bits-and-barbarism.html The section from General Theory of Employment, Interest, and Money, by Keynes that Krugman refers to is copied below. It is amusing. Keynes sure knew how to write. Let me add something from my point of view, which is that of a man who has only a hammer to whom all problems look like nails. I see this and most other issues in terms of technology. It is said that gold is available in limited amounts. This will supposedly prevent inflation, which is why goldbugs who do not trust the government are enamored of gold. Unfortunately the gold standard also limits the money supply which means the economy cannot expand. More to the point, nowadays, I doubt that the amount of gold is really all that limited. Suppose we had some desperate need to get lots of gold, say, to keep the sun from exploding (somehow). I'm pretty sure we could find lots more. Gold is available at very low concentrate in the ocean, but there are probably millions of tons and we could find a way to filter the water. It is probably available elsewhere in the solar system. If that does not work out, I expect we could find a way to transmute other elements into gold in industrial quantities. If we really needed to, we could find a way to get so much gold we could pave the roads with it. As Arthur Clarke said, the only resource that is truly in short supply is brains. With enough intelligence and science, you can have anything you want, in unlimited quantities. Here is the text from Keynes: It is curious how common sense, wriggling for an escape from absurd conclusions, has been apt to reach a preference for *wholly* 'wasteful' forms of loan expenditure rather than for *partly* wasteful forms, which, because they are not wholly wasteful, tend to be judged on strict 'business' principles. For example, unemployment relief financed by loans is more readily accepted than the financing of improvements at a charge below the current rate of interest; whilst the form of digging holes in the ground known as gold-mining, which not only adds nothing whatever to the real wealth of the world but involves the disutility of labour, is the most acceptable of all solutions. If the Treasury were to fill old bottles with banknotes, bury them at suitable depths in disused coalmines which are then filled up to the surface with town rubbish, and leave it to private enterprise on well-tried principles of *laissez-faire* to dig the notes up again (the right to do so being obtained, of course, by tendering for leases of the note-bearing territory), there need be no more unemployment and, with the help of the repercussions, the real income of the community, and its capital wealth also, would probably become a good deal greater than it actually is. It would, indeed, be more sensible to build houses and the like; but if there are political and practical difficulties in the way of this, the above would be better than nothing. The analogy between this expedient and the goldmines of the real world is complete. At periods when gold is available at suitable depths experience shows that the real wealth of the world increases rapidly; and when but little of it is so available our wealth suffers stagnation or decline. Thus gold-mines are of the greatest value and importance to civilisation. Just as wars have been the only form of large-scale loan expenditure which statesmen have thought justifiable, so gold-mining is the only pretext for digging holes in the ground which has recommended itself to bankers as sound finance; and each of these activities has played its part in progress -- failing something better. To mention a detail, the tendency in slumps for the price of gold to rise in terms of labour and materials aids eventual recovery, because it increases the depth at which gold-digging pays and lowers the minimum grade of ore which is payable.
Re: [Vo]:Re: Is there an echo in here?
I do not understand this argument for an unlimited amount of money. Gold can be given any value in dollars , hence the amount available in physical form can be given as much buying power you want without changing the amount of physical gold. Right now the price is held at artificial low levels compared to the demand, especially from China. This is done by creating paper gold that takes the place of real gold. That process has a limited lifetime that will end badly. The bitcoin can be subdivided to any small amount such that if 1 bitcoin has to be equal to 1M$ to be useful in trade, a dollar would be equal to 0.01 bitcoins, which would buy just as much as would one bit coin if it were = 1$. The US government is creating money to fill the debt hole created by the banks so that they can avoid going bankrupt based on the present rules and so that the government can continue to spend without balancing the books. Having gold or bitcoins as a standard would place a limit on how much of this artificial wealth could be created. According to my understanding, an unsustainable situation is being created that will only end badly. Ed Storms On Feb 26, 2014, at 3:54 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: Bob Cook frobertc...@hotmail.com wrote: Jed-- What about gold? That's a complicated subject! First, gold has considerable intrinsic value, for electronics, fillings and other medical uses, and so on, plus aesthetic value in jewelry. Second, in ancient times gold was an excellent means of exchange because amounts were limited by mining technology, and because it could not be faked. You can test for gold by primitive methods. You can measure gold density with Archimedes' principle, which was invented for that very purpose. Nowadays, I believe most economists consider the gold standard barbaric. I do not know enough about economics to comment in detail, but their arguments make sense to me. See, for example: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/23/opinion/krugman-bits-and-barbarism.html The section from General Theory of Employment, Interest, and Money, by Keynes that Krugman refers to is copied below. It is amusing. Keynes sure knew how to write. Let me add something from my point of view, which is that of a man who has only a hammer to whom all problems look like nails. I see this and most other issues in terms of technology. It is said that gold is available in limited amounts. This will supposedly prevent inflation, which is why goldbugs who do not trust the government are enamored of gold. Unfortunately the gold standard also limits the money supply which means the economy cannot expand. More to the point, nowadays, I doubt that the amount of gold is really all that limited. Suppose we had some desperate need to get lots of gold, say, to keep the sun from exploding (somehow). I'm pretty sure we could find lots more. Gold is available at very low concentrate in the ocean, but there are probably millions of tons and we could find a way to filter the water. It is probably available elsewhere in the solar system. If that does not work out, I expect we could find a way to transmute other elements into gold in industrial quantities. If we really needed to, we could find a way to get so much gold we could pave the roads with it. As Arthur Clarke said, the only resource that is truly in short supply is brains. With enough intelligence and science, you can have anything you want, in unlimited quantities. Here is the text from Keynes: It is curious how common sense, wriggling for an escape from absurd conclusions, has been apt to reach a preference for wholly 'wasteful' forms of loan expenditure rather than for partly wasteful forms, which, because they are not wholly wasteful, tend to be judged on strict 'business' principles. For example, unemployment relief financed by loans is more readily accepted than the financing of improvements at a charge below the current rate of interest; whilst the form of digging holes in the ground known as gold-mining, which not only adds nothing whatever to the real wealth of the world but involves the disutility of labour, is the most acceptable of all solutions. If the Treasury were to fill old bottles with banknotes, bury them at suitable depths in disused coalmines which are then filled up to the surface with town rubbish, and leave it to private enterprise on well-tried principles of laissez-faire to dig the notes up again (the right to do so being obtained, of course, by tendering for leases of the note-bearing territory), there need be no more unemployment and, with the help of the repercussions, the real income of the community, and its capital wealth also, would probably become a good deal greater than it actually is. It would, indeed, be more sensible to build houses and the like; but if there are political and practical difficulties in the way of
Re: [Vo]:Re: Is there an echo in here?
there is no more any problem of gold quantity, like there is no problem with banknotes volume. Fed bank no more print banknotes (not enoug papers on earth for US dollars). I just have to give a paper contract I ow you 10 tons of gold and I will have created 10 ton of gold. if someone need it as gold, I will just give a similar paper pf 10.01ton of gold to someone owning 10tons of real gold... today most gold is paper-gold. however with that, gold have no more reliability than dollar, bitcoins or sardines. 2014-02-26 23:54 GMT+01:00 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com: Bob Cook frobertc...@hotmail.com wrote: Jed-- What about gold? That's a complicated subject! First, gold has considerable intrinsic value, for electronics, fillings and other medical uses, and so on, plus aesthetic value in jewelry. Second, in ancient times gold was an excellent means of exchange because amounts were limited by mining technology, and because it could not be faked. You can test for gold by primitive methods. You can measure gold density with Archimedes' principle, which was invented for that very purpose. Nowadays, I believe most economists consider the gold standard barbaric. I do not know enough about economics to comment in detail, but their arguments make sense to me. See, for example: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/23/opinion/krugman-bits-and-barbarism.html The section from General Theory of Employment, Interest, and Money, by Keynes that Krugman refers to is copied below. It is amusing. Keynes sure knew how to write. Let me add something from my point of view, which is that of a man who has only a hammer to whom all problems look like nails. I see this and most other issues in terms of technology. It is said that gold is available in limited amounts. This will supposedly prevent inflation, which is why goldbugs who do not trust the government are enamored of gold. Unfortunately the gold standard also limits the money supply which means the economy cannot expand. More to the point, nowadays, I doubt that the amount of gold is really all that limited. Suppose we had some desperate need to get lots of gold, say, to keep the sun from exploding (somehow). I'm pretty sure we could find lots more. Gold is available at very low concentrate in the ocean, but there are probably millions of tons and we could find a way to filter the water. It is probably available elsewhere in the solar system. If that does not work out, I expect we could find a way to transmute other elements into gold in industrial quantities. If we really needed to, we could find a way to get so much gold we could pave the roads with it. As Arthur Clarke said, the only resource that is truly in short supply is brains. With enough intelligence and science, you can have anything you want, in unlimited quantities. Here is the text from Keynes: It is curious how common sense, wriggling for an escape from absurd conclusions, has been apt to reach a preference for *wholly* 'wasteful' forms of loan expenditure rather than for *partly* wasteful forms, which, because they are not wholly wasteful, tend to be judged on strict 'business' principles. For example, unemployment relief financed by loans is more readily accepted than the financing of improvements at a charge below the current rate of interest; whilst the form of digging holes in the ground known as gold-mining, which not only adds nothing whatever to the real wealth of the world but involves the disutility of labour, is the most acceptable of all solutions. If the Treasury were to fill old bottles with banknotes, bury them at suitable depths in disused coalmines which are then filled up to the surface with town rubbish, and leave it to private enterprise on well-tried principles of *laissez-faire* to dig the notes up again (the right to do so being obtained, of course, by tendering for leases of the note-bearing territory), there need be no more unemployment and, with the help of the repercussions, the real income of the community, and its capital wealth also, would probably become a good deal greater than it actually is. It would, indeed, be more sensible to build houses and the like; but if there are political and practical difficulties in the way of this, the above would be better than nothing. The analogy between this expedient and the goldmines of the real world is complete. At periods when gold is available at suitable depths experience shows that the real wealth of the world increases rapidly; and when but little of it is so available our wealth suffers stagnation or decline. Thus gold-mines are of the greatest value and importance to civilisation. Just as wars have been the only form of large-scale loan expenditure which statesmen have thought justifiable, so gold-mining is the only pretext for digging holes in the ground which has recommended itself to bankers as sound finance; and each of these activities has
Re: [Vo]:Re: Is there an echo in here?
Well the problem is your understanding is propaganda. It isn't true and it isn't even supported by the facts. The first issue is debt, in total it doesn't exist. Second, the US isn't in debt, its wealth is higher than ever. Sent from my iPhone On Feb 26, 2014, at 5:14 PM, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.com wrote: I do not understand this argument for an unlimited amount of money. Gold can be given any value in dollars , hence the amount available in physical form can be given as much buying power you want without changing the amount of physical gold. Right now the price is held at artificial low levels compared to the demand, especially from China. This is done by creating paper gold that takes the place of real gold. That process has a limited lifetime that will end badly. The bitcoin can be subdivided to any small amount such that if 1 bitcoin has to be equal to 1M$ to be useful in trade, a dollar would be equal to 0.01 bitcoins, which would buy just as much as would one bit coin if it were = 1$. The US government is creating money to fill the debt hole created by the banks so that they can avoid going bankrupt based on the present rules and so that the government can continue to spend without balancing the books. Having gold or bitcoins as a standard would place a limit on how much of this artificial wealth could be created. According to my understanding, an unsustainable situation is being created that will only end badly. Ed Storms On Feb 26, 2014, at 3:54 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: Bob Cook frobertc...@hotmail.com wrote: Jed-- What about gold? That's a complicated subject! First, gold has considerable intrinsic value, for electronics, fillings and other medical uses, and so on, plus aesthetic value in jewelry. Second, in ancient times gold was an excellent means of exchange because amounts were limited by mining technology, and because it could not be faked. You can test for gold by primitive methods. You can measure gold density with Archimedes' principle, which was invented for that very purpose. Nowadays, I believe most economists consider the gold standard barbaric. I do not know enough about economics to comment in detail, but their arguments make sense to me. See, for example: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/23/opinion/krugman-bits-and-barbarism.html The section from General Theory of Employment, Interest, and Money, by Keynes that Krugman refers to is copied below. It is amusing. Keynes sure knew how to write. Let me add something from my point of view, which is that of a man who has only a hammer to whom all problems look like nails. I see this and most other issues in terms of technology. It is said that gold is available in limited amounts. This will supposedly prevent inflation, which is why goldbugs who do not trust the government are enamored of gold. Unfortunately the gold standard also limits the money supply which means the economy cannot expand. More to the point, nowadays, I doubt that the amount of gold is really all that limited. Suppose we had some desperate need to get lots of gold, say, to keep the sun from exploding (somehow). I'm pretty sure we could find lots more. Gold is available at very low concentrate in the ocean, but there are probably millions of tons and we could find a way to filter the water. It is probably available elsewhere in the solar system. If that does not work out, I expect we could find a way to transmute other elements into gold in industrial quantities. If we really needed to, we could find a way to get so much gold we could pave the roads with it. As Arthur Clarke said, the only resource that is truly in short supply is brains. With enough intelligence and science, you can have anything you want, in unlimited quantities. Here is the text from Keynes: It is curious how common sense, wriggling for an escape from absurd conclusions, has been apt to reach a preference for wholly 'wasteful' forms of loan expenditure rather than for partly wasteful forms, which, because they are not wholly wasteful, tend to be judged on strict 'business' principles. For example, unemployment relief financed by loans is more readily accepted than the financing of improvements at a charge below the current rate of interest; whilst the form of digging holes in the ground known as gold-mining, which not only adds nothing whatever to the real wealth of the world but involves the disutility of labour, is the most acceptable of all solutions. If the Treasury were to fill old bottles with banknotes, bury them at suitable depths in disused coalmines which are then filled up to the surface with town rubbish, and leave it to private enterprise on well-tried principles of laissez-faire to dig the notes up again (the right to do so being obtained, of course, by tendering for leases of the note-bearing
