Re: Ambient Gravimagnetic Field and the Earth Field
Horace Heffner wrote: On Feb 2, 2006, at 11:33 AM, Harry Veeder wrote: Horace Heffner wrote: On Feb 1, 2006, at 10:20 AM, Harry Veeder wrote: Could Gravimagnetism be involved in the precession of the perihelion of planet mercury? http://phyun5.ucr.edu/~wudka/Physics7/Notes_www/node98.html [snip] Presumably then gravimagnetism is not required to explain _any_ of the orbital precession since it can all be explained by classical and relativistic physics. Harry This is true. Gravimagnetism is consistent with the above with regard to the retardation effects, and adds no changes to the retardation results calculated by conventional means. It adds nothing to the final results. Its primary value in this case is the fact it circumvents the incomprehensible math behind things like the Thirring- Lense effect and brings some important gravitational concepts down to a high school math level. It makes some intuitive sense of the Thirring-Lense effect at a mundane level. The Thirring-Lense effect is becoming more important to astronomy. For example, see: http://www.physics.uiuc.edu/Research/CTA/news/sidebands/. Simple mental models are vitally important to sorting out the nature of various gravitational effects, and to approaching a quantum theory of gravity. They are also of important to basic engineering of gravity effects, and to distinguishing real from retardation relativistic effects. The gravimagnetic model, with corrections for real effects, both in the EM and gK realms, may lead to alternate explanations for observed effects. If I had the concepts roughly right and did the calculations correctly in http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/GraviCalcs.pdf then the ambient gravimagnetic field overwhelms the Earth's local gravimagnetic field. The ambient gravimagnetic field has little effect on orbital precession however, only on average orbital height. The GRACE mission: http://www.nasa.gov/vision/earth/lookingatearth/earth_drag.html did actually see the effects of the Earth's gravimagnetic field on orbital precession, because it is an *incremental* effect due to incremental changes in distance from the Earth. The Gravity Probe B satellite, however, is measuring the effect of the *absolute* gravimagnetic field by looking at precession of a small silicon ball, so gravimagnetism predicts a 50-100 fold difference in results. If I did things right (still much in doubt!) then NASA is in for some surprising results! We should hear in early 2007. If that actually happens then the value of the concept will be permanently cast in cement. There is a far more significant value to the concept, however, at least when it is developed and applied under the isomorphism proposed in: http://mtaonline.net/~hheffner/GR-and-QM.pdf. This isomorphism, in addition to immediately bringing to bear every EM equation on gravitational problems, points to underlying symmetries and opens up a large number of difficult questions and implications, some of which are discussed in the referenced document. It demonstrates the power of the imaginary number i in gravitational computations. Then again, this could all be bunk! 8^) Horace Heffner In EM theory a body with some charge and with motion which is initially uniform and in a straight line will be deflected by the appearance of a magnetic field. If the isomorphism between Gravity and EM holds, then a body with some mass with the same initial motion should be deflected by the appearance of gravimagnetic field (not a gravity field) , but it appears to be only true if the body is initially rotating too. Have I misunderstood the meaning of isomorphism or something about the theory of gravimagnetism? Harry
Re: Ambient Gravimagnetic Field and the Earth Field
On Feb 4, 2006, at 11:32 AM, Harry Veeder wrote: In EM theory a body with some charge and with motion which is initially uniform and in a straight line will be deflected by the appearance of a magnetic field. Yes, assuming of course you do not mean the charge's own field. This deflection is caused by the analog to the Lorentz force. I would replace by the appearance of with in the presence of, since fields do not just appear from nothing and without effect. If the isomorphism between Gravity and EM holds, then a body with some mass with the same initial motion should be deflected by the appearance of gravimagnetic field (not a gravity field) , Yes, again with the same caveats. but it appears to be only true if the body is initially rotating too. No. The deflection can be due solely to the Lorentz force. However, if the gravimagnetic field is not uniform, then a spinning body can also be deflected by the gravimagnetic force. In a uniform gravimagnetic field a spinning body, in motion or not with respect to the gravimagnetic field, is only made to precess due to its spinning. A spinning body is deflected by the Lorentz force just like a non-spinning body. Have I misunderstood the meaning of isomorphism or something about the theory of gravimagnetism? Your understanding of EM may be a bit off, if I understand your questions. Horace Heffner
Re: Ambient Gravimagnetic Field and the Earth Field
On Feb 1, 2006, at 10:20 AM, Harry Veeder wrote: Could Gravimagnetism be involved in the precession of the perihelion of planet mercury? http://phyun5.ucr.edu/~wudka/Physics7/Notes_www/node98.html Harry Gravimagnetism has much to do with the precession of non-circular obits. Gravimagnetism embodies the relativistic effects due to retardation. It does not account for red shift due to gravitational or acceleration time dilation. Jefimenko noted that the entire rate of precession of Mercury's perihelion could be accounted for by merely reducing the speed of gravity to less than c. Since the time he wrote his book, however, the speed of gravity has been measured at c. (See: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2639043.stm) This implies Einstein's explanation of the remaining bit of precession is still necessary. The reason gravimagnetism plays a strong role in orbit precession is that it is a 1/r^3 effect. The attraction and thus acceleration close up to the sun is greater than further out. The angular motion of mercury is increased a little bit when up close to the sun, and thus the precession of the orbit results. Horace Heffner
Re: Ambient Gravimagnetic Field and the Earth Field
Horace Heffner wrote: On Feb 1, 2006, at 10:20 AM, Harry Veeder wrote: Could Gravimagnetism be involved in the precession of the perihelion of planet mercury? http://phyun5.ucr.edu/~wudka/Physics7/Notes_www/node98.html Harry Gravimagnetism has much to do with the precession of non-circular obits. Gravimagnetism embodies the relativistic effects due to retardation. It does not account for red shift due to gravitational or acceleration time dilation. Jefimenko noted that the entire rate of precession of Mercury's perihelion could be accounted for by merely reducing the speed of gravity to less than c. Since the time he wrote his book, however, the speed of gravity has been measured at c. (See: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2639043.stm) This implies Einstein's explanation of the remaining bit of precession is still necessary. The reason gravimagnetism plays a strong role in orbit precession is that it is a 1/r^3 effect. The attraction and thus acceleration close up to the sun is greater than further out. The angular motion of mercury is increased a little bit when up close to the sun, and thus the precession of the orbit results. Horace Heffner Presumably then gravimagnetism is not required to explain _any_ of the orbital precession since it can all be explained by classical and relativistic physics. Harry
Re: Ambient Gravimagnetic Field and the Earth Field
On Feb 2, 2006, at 11:33 AM, Harry Veeder wrote: Horace Heffner wrote: On Feb 1, 2006, at 10:20 AM, Harry Veeder wrote: Could Gravimagnetism be involved in the precession of the perihelion of planet mercury? http://phyun5.ucr.edu/~wudka/Physics7/Notes_www/node98.html [snip] Presumably then gravimagnetism is not required to explain _any_ of the orbital precession since it can all be explained by classical and relativistic physics. Harry This is true. Gravimagnetism is consistent with the above with regard to the retardation effects, and adds no changes to the retardation results calculated by conventional means. It adds nothing to the final results. Its primary value in this case is the fact it circumvents the incomprehensible math behind things like the Thirring- Lense effect and brings some important gravitational concepts down to a high school math level. It makes some intuitive sense of the Thirring-Lense effect at a mundane level. The Thirring-Lense effect is becoming more important to astronomy. For example, see: http://www.physics.uiuc.edu/Research/CTA/news/sidebands/. Simple mental models are vitally important to sorting out the nature of various gravitational effects, and to approaching a quantum theory of gravity. They are also of important to basic engineering of gravity effects, and to distinguishing real from retardation relativistic effects. The gravimagnetic model, with corrections for real effects, both in the EM and gK realms, may lead to alternate explanations for observed effects. If I had the concepts roughly right and did the calculations correctly in http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/GraviCalcs.pdf then the ambient gravimagnetic field overwhelms the Earth's local gravimagnetic field. The ambient gravimagnetic field has little effect on orbital precession however, only on average orbital height. The GRACE mission: http://www.nasa.gov/vision/earth/lookingatearth/earth_drag.html did actually see the effects of the Earth's gravimagnetic field on orbital precession, because it is an *incremental* effect due to incremental changes in distance from the Earth. The Gravity Probe B satellite, however, is measuring the effect of the *absolute* gravimagnetic field by looking at precession of a small silicon ball, so gravimagnetism predicts a 50-100 fold difference in results. If I did things right (still much in doubt!) then NASA is in for some surprising results! We should hear in early 2007. If that actually happens then the value of the concept will be permanently cast in cement. There is a far more significant value to the concept, however, at least when it is developed and applied under the isomorphism proposed in: http://mtaonline.net/~hheffner/GR-and-QM.pdf. This isomorphism, in addition to immediately bringing to bear every EM equation on gravitational problems, points to underlying symmetries and opens up a large number of difficult questions and implications, some of which are discussed in the referenced document. It demonstrates the power of the imaginary number i in gravitational computations. Then again, this could all be bunk! 8^) Horace Heffner
Re: Ambient Gravimagnetic Field and the Earth Field
The subject article has been checked for arithmetic errors and the title changed to The Ambient Gravimagnetic Field. It is located at: http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/GraviCalcs.pdf Horace Heffner
Re: Ambient Gravimagnetic Field and the Earth Field
Horace Heffner wrote: On Jan 30, 2006, at 7:19 PM, Harry Veeder wrote: I wonder if there is a connection between Gravimagnetism and dowsing and ley lines... I'm clueless on that one. Horace Heffner Could Gravimagnetism be involved in the precession of the perihelion of planet mercury? http://phyun5.ucr.edu/~wudka/Physics7/Notes_www/node98.html Harry
Re: Ambient Gravimagnetic Field and the Earth Field
On Jan 30, 2006, at 7:19 PM, Harry Veeder wrote: I wonder if there is a connection between Gravimagnetism and dowsing and ley lines... I'm clueless on that one. Horace Heffner
Re: Ambient Gravimagnetic Field and the Earth Field
I made a bunch is calculation errors on the previous posts in this thread, which was typical of me, but things are now looking about right. Ambient Gravimagnetic Field and the Earth Field BACKGROUND Only an object which is solid can sustain torque free precession. Therefor the earth, and even the earth-moon system, can not sustain torque free precession. (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precession) If we assume the precession of the earth is due to torque on the earth by the ambient gravimagnetic field, then, using the precession rate, we can compute the field strength of that ambient field. GYROS Let: a = angular acceleration (a vector) I = moment of inertia L = angular momentum (a vector) omega = angular velocity of precession (a vector) t = time Tp = period for one precession rotation Ts = period for one gyro spin rotation Q = torque (a vector) Q_earth = torque on earth from gravimagnetism w = angular velocity of gyro (a vector) So: Q = dL/dt = d(I w)/dt = I a Q = omega x L (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyroscope) PRECESSION TIME Tp = (4 Pi^2 I)/(Q Ts) (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precession) EARTH Precession Period: Tp = 25,800 years = 8.142x10^11 sec. Precession Angular radius: 23 degrees 27 minutes Mass: 5.985x10^24 kg Radius: 6378 m. Rotation period: Ts = 86164 sec. BASIC GRAVIMAGNETIC VARIABLES ElectricGravitational q m * i E g B K J J_g epsilon_0 epsilon_g_0 = 1.192602x10^9 kg s^2/m^3 mu_0mu_g_0 = 9.329597x10^-27 m/kg c c_g = c Table 1: Gravity-electromagnetism Isomorphism Correspondence Table The mass of the earth is m_t_earth = 5.985x10^24 kg. The radius of earth is 6371 km. The moment of inertia for a sphere of radius r and mass M is (2/5) M r. For estimating purposes, considering the iron core out to 3500 m, we might assume, by weighed value, the mass is located in a ring of radius 1780 km, rotating once every day, i.e. at 2*Pi*1780 km/day = 129 m/s. The moment of inertia of the earth I is then I = m r^2 = (5.985x10^24 kg)(1780 km)^2 = 1.90x10^37 kg m^2. The gravicurrent is i_g_earth = (5.985x10^24 i kg)/day = 5.171x10^29 i kg/s. Note that i in the units here is the imaginary number (-1)^ (1/2). The gravimagnetic dipole moment mu_k of the earth's gravicurrent is thus the gravicurrent times the area of the current loop, or (5.171x10^29 i kg/s)(Pi*(1780 km)^2) gives: mu_k_earth = 5.15x10^42 i kg m^2/s TORQUE ON MAGNET IN UNIFORM FIELD A = area of current loop mu = i_amp A = magnetic moment Q = mu x B = torque TORQUE ON GRAVIMAGNET IN UNIFORM GRAVIMAGNETIC FIELD A = area of gravicurrent loop i_g = gravicurrent mu_g = i_g A = gravimagnetic moment Q_g = mu_g X K = torque TORQUE FROM PRECESSION TIME Given Q for 90 deg precession: Tp = (4 Pi^2 I)/(Q Ts) we have: Q = (4 Pi^2 I)/(Tp Ts) Where, from above: Tp = 8.142x10^11 sec. Ts = 86164 sec. I = 1.90x10^37 kg m^2. Q_earth = (4 Pi^2 (1.90x10^37 kg m^2))/ ((8.142x10^11 s) (86164 s)) Q_earth = 3.40x10^21 N m However, the above assumes a 90 deg angle of precession. Knowing Q_earth = I * (w x omega) and that the angle between w and omega is the precession angular radius: 23 degrees 27 minutes, we get Q_earth = Q * sin(23.45 deg.) = Q * 0.398 Q_earth = (3.40x10^21 N m) * 0.398 Q_earth = 1.353x10^21 N m AMBIENT GRAVIMAGNETIC FIELD Given: mu_g = mu_k_earth = 5.15x10^42 i kg m^2/s Q_g = Q_earth = 1.353x10^21 N m and knowing the angle between mu_g and gravimagnetic field K is the precession angular radius: 23 degrees 27 minutes: Q_g = mu_g * mu_g_0 X K we have scalar quantities: Q_g = mu_g * mu_g_0 * K * sin(23.45 deg.) K_ambient = Q_g/(mu_g * mu_g_0 * 0.398) K_ambient = i (1.353x10^21 N m) /((5.15x10^42 i kg m^2/s) * (9.33x10^-27 m/kg)*0.398) K_ambient = i 7.07x10^4 kg/(m s) SUMMARY OF COMPUTED VALUES Moment of inertia of earth I = 1.90x10^37 kg m^2 Gravicurrent of earth: i_g_earth = 5.171x10^29 i kg/s Gravimagnetic dipole moment mu_k_earth: mu_k_earth = 5.15x10^42 i kg m^2/s Torque on earth: Q_earth = 1.353x10^21 N m Ambient gravimagnetic field: K_ambient = 7.07x10^4 i kg/(m s) SOME CONSEQUENCES Given EM Lorentz: F = q (v x B) We have the gK equivalent: F_g = m (v x mu_0 * K) Given: m = 1 kg v = 8050 m/s (18,000 mi/hr) Then: F_g = (1 kg i) ((8050 m/s) x (9.33x10^-27 m/kg)(7.07x10^4 i kg/(m s))) F_g = -5.61x10^-21 N = 5.72x10^-22 kgf So the lateral acceleration due to moving at orbital speed through the ambient gravimagnetic field is only 5.72x10^-22 g’s. Insignificant. EARTH GRAVIMAGNETIC FIELD The field intensity in the center
Re: Ambient Gravimagnetic Field and the Earth Field
-Original Message- From: Horace Heffner HERE'S THE AMAZING THING: the ambient gravimagnetic flux density is about 2 orders of magnitude larger than the Earth?s gravimagnetic flux. density Dr. Ning Li said the same. However, I think it was much more than 2 orders. I'lll send you her unpublished paper. Terry ___ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com
Re: Ambient Gravimagnetic Field and the Earth Field
I wonder if there is a connection between Gravimagnetism and dowsing and ley lines... Harry Horace Heffner wrote: HERE'S THE AMAZING THING: the ambient gravimagnetic flux density is about 2 orders of magnitude larger than the Earth¹s gravimagnetic flux. density If correct, this should have profound implications for the Gravity Probe B experiment underway. It has other huge implications, but more to follow on that. Ambient Gravimagnetic Field and the Earth Field snip
Ambient Gravimagnetic Field and the Earth Field
Ambient Gravimagnetic Field and the Earth Field BACKGROUND Only an object which is solid can sustain torque free precession. Therefor the earth, and even the earth-moon system, can not sustain torque free precession. (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precession) If we assume the precession of the earth is due to torque on the earth by the ambient gravimagnetic field, then, using the precession rate, we can compute the field strength of that ambient field. GYROS Let: a = angular acceleration (a vector) I = moment of inertia L = angular momentum (a vector) omega = angular velocity of precession (a vector) t = time Tp = period for one precession rotation Ts = period for one gyro spin rotation Q = torque (a vector) Q_earth = torque on earth from gravimagnetism w = angular velocity of gyro (a vector) So: Q = dL/dt = d(I w)/dt = I a Q = omega x L (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyroscope) PRECESSION TIME Tp = (4 Pi^2 I)/(Q Ts) (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precession) EARTH Precession Period: Tp = 25,800 years = 8.142x10^11 sec. Precession Angular radius: 23 degrees 27 minutes Mass: 5.985x10^24 kg Radius: 6378 m. Rotation period: Ts = 86164 sec. BASIC GRAVIMAGNETIC VARIABLES ElectricGravitational q m * i E g B K J J_g epsilon_0 epsilon_g_0 = 1.192602x10^9 kg s^2/m^3 mu_0mu_g_0 = 9.329597x10^-27 m/kg c c_g = c Table 1: Gravity-electromagnetism Isomorphism Correspondence Table The mass of the earth is m_t_earth = 5.985x10^24 kg. The radius of earth is 6371 km. The moment of inertia for a sphere of radius r and mass M is (2/5) M r. For estimating purposes, considering the iron core out to 3500 m, we might assume, by weighed value, the mass is located in a ring of radius 1780 km, rotating once every day, i.e. at 2*Pi*1780 km/day = 129 m/s. The moment of inertia of the earth I is then I = m r^2 = (5.985x10^24 kg)(1780 km)^2 = 1.90x10^37 kg m^2. The gravicurrent is i_g_earth = (5.985x10^24 i kg)/day = 5.171x10^29 i kg/s. Note that i in the units here is the imaginary number (-1)^ (1/2). The gravimagnetic dipole moment mu_k of the earth's gravicurrent is thus the gravicurrent times the area of the current loop, or (5.171x10^29 i kg/s)(Pi*(1780 km)^2) gives: mu_k_earth = 5.15x10^42 i kg m^2/s TORQUE ON MAGNET IN UNIFORM FIELD A = area of current loop mu = i_amp A = magnetic moment Q = mu x B = torque TORQUE ON GRAVIMAGNET IN UNIFORM GRAVIMAGNETIC FIELD A = area of gravicurrent loop i_g = gravicurrent mu_g = i_g A = gravimagnetic moment Q_g = mu_g X K = torque TORQUE FROM PRECESSION TIME Given Q for 90 deg precession: Tp = (4 Pi^2 I)/(Q Ts) we have: Q = (4 Pi^2 I)/(Tp Ts) Where, from above: Tp = 8.142x10^11 sec. Ts = 86164 sec. I = 1.90x10^37 kg m^2. Q_earth = (4 Pi^2 (1.90x10^37 kg m^2))/ ((8.142x10^11 s) (86164 s)) Q_earth = 3.40x10^21 N m However, the above assumes a 90 deg angle of precession. Knowing Q_earth = I * (w x omega) and that the angle between w and omega is the precession angular radius: 23 degrees 27 minutes, we get Q_earth = Q * sin(23.45 deg.) = Q * 0.398 Q_earth = (3.40x10^21 N m) * 0.398 Q_earth = 1.353x10^21 N m AMBIENT GRAVIMAGNETIC FIELD Given: mu_g = mu_k_earth = 5.15x10^42 i kg m^2/s Q_g = Q_earth = 1.353x10^21 N m and knowing the angle between mu_g and gravimagnetic field K is the precession angular radius: 23 degrees 27 minutes: Q_g = mu_g * mu_g_0 X K we have scalar quantities: Q_g = mu_g * mu_g_0 * K * sin(23.45 deg.) K_ambient = Q_g/(mu_g * mu_g_0 * 0.398) K_ambient = i (1.353x10^21 N m) /((5.15x10^42 i kg m^2/s) * (9.33x10^-27 m/kg)*0.398) K_ambient = i 7.07x10^4 kg/(m s) SUMMARY OF COMPUTED VALUES Moment of inertia of earth I = 1.90x10^37 kg m^2 Gravicurrent of earth: i_g_earth = 5.171x10^29 i kg/s Gravimagnetic dipole moment mu_k_earth: mu_k_earth = 5.15x10^42 i kg m^2/s Torque on earth: Q_earth = 1.353x10^21 N m Ambient gravimagnetic field: K_ambient = 7.07x10^4 i kg/(m s) SOME CONSEQUENCES Given EM Lorentz: F = q (v x B) We have the gK equivalent: F_g = m (v x mu_0 * K) Given: m = 1 kg v = 8050 m/s (18,000 mi/hr) Then: F_g = (1 kg i) ((8050 m/s) x (9.33x10^-27 m/kg)(7.07x10^4 i kg/(m s))) F_g = -5.61x10^-21 N = 5.72x10^-22 kgf So the lateral acceleration due to moving at orbital speed through the ambient gravimagnetic field is only 5.72x10^-22 g’s. Insignificant. EARTH GRAVIMAGNETIC FIELD The field intensity in the center a conducting ring radius R and current I_ring is B = mu_0 I_ring/ (2 R) Using earth simulating ring radius 1780 km, and gravicurrent
