Re: Re: Long Delayed Echoes
From: Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED] No, the question was, doesn't anyone listen at radar frequencies, without a directional antenna? None that I know.
Re: Long Delayed Echoes
What form would a non-directional antenna have? Harry Terry Blanton wrote: From: Robin van Spaandonk No, the question was, doesn't anyone listen at radar frequencies, without a directional antenna? None that I know.
Re: Long Delayed Echoes
Good point. It would have to be a point source. Even a dipole has directionality. Harry Veeder wrote: What form would a non-directional antenna have? Harry Terry Blanton wrote: From: Robin van Spaandonk No, the question was, doesn't anyone listen at radar frequencies, without a directional antenna? None that I know.
Re: Long Delayed Echoes
In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Wed, 04 May 2005 16:47:02 -0400: Hi, [snip] Good point. It would have to be a point source. Even a dipole has directionality. True, but you would have to be very lucky to point it's blind spot right at the source. Harry Veeder wrote: What form would a non-directional antenna have? Harry [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread.
Re: Re: Long Delayed Echoes
From: Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED] That still doesn't answer my question though. I'm sorry, the question was regarding googling echo returns from the moon?
Re: Long Delayed Echoes
In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Tue, 3 May 2005 8:20:17 -0400: Hi, [snip] From: Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED] That still doesn't answer my question though. I'm sorry, the question was regarding googling echo returns from the moon? No, the question was, doesn't anyone listen at radar frequencies, without a directional antenna? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread.
Re: Re: Long Delayed Echoes
From: Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED] In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Sun, 01 May 2005 09:48:26 -0400: Hi, [snip] Because, it will be pointed in a different direction on signal return due to the rotation of the earth. [snip] ..and thus would not be picked up. Good point. Doesn't anyone listen on radar frequencies without using directional antennae? Very good. It's amazing how much trouble I have on the SETI list making people understand this. Either ET must be tracking the earth with a directional antenna or ET must be using an isotropic radiator. Note the Nipponese Ham was using 3.5 MHz. Since free space attenuation (dB) is given by: 96.6 + 20 log (F) + 20 log (D) the frequency component forces the use of directional antennae at higher, common radar frequencies.
Re: Long Delayed Echoes
In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Mon, 2 May 2005 8:28:10 -0400: Hi, [snip] Very good. It's amazing how much trouble I have on the SETI list making people understand this. Either ET must be tracking the earth with a directional antenna or ET must be using an isotropic radiator. ET doesn't use EM at all, he uses FTL. :] Note the Nipponese Ham was using 3.5 MHz. Since free space attenuation (dB) is given by: 96.6 + 20 log (F) + 20 log (D) the frequency component forces the use of directional antennae at higher, common radar frequencies. That still doesn't answer my question though. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread.
Re: Long Delayed Echoes
Robin van Spaandonk wrote: In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Sat, 30 Apr 2005 19:05:00 -0400: Hi, [snip] Robin van Spaandonk wrote: Try googling radar ranging results for the moon/Venus/mars, and see if any long delayed echoes are mentioned. Be more specific, pls. Directional antennae could render your comment irrelevant. Why? Because, it will be pointed in a different direction on signal return due to the rotation of the earth.
Re: Long Delayed Echoes
In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Sun, 01 May 2005 09:48:26 -0400: Hi, [snip] Because, it will be pointed in a different direction on signal return due to the rotation of the earth. [snip] ..and thus would not be picked up. Good point. Doesn't anyone listen on radar frequencies without using directional antennae? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread.
Re: Long Delayed Echoes
Robin van Spaandonk wrote: In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Fri, 29 Apr 2005 11:51:36 -0400: Hi, [snip] He supposedly has the proof; but, focusing is a possibility. Imagine you're a point source at the center of a 41 light hour radius reflective sphere. ..such as the Heliopause perhaps? Yes, and such a pity that we might not hear Voyager's experience with the Heliopause: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A23500-2005Apr3.html
Re: Long Delayed Echoes
Terry Blanton wrote: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Fri, 29 Apr 2005 11:51:36 -0400: Hi, [snip] He supposedly has the proof; but, focusing is a possibility. Imagine you're a point source at the center of a 41 light hour radius reflective sphere. ..such as the Heliopause perhaps? Yes, and such a pity that we might not hear Voyager's experience with the Heliopause: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A23500-2005Apr3.html Okay, here's a proposal . . . We hit the Heliopause with an impulse and check the resulting response. Maybe detonate a small device on the other side of Sol? Better still, don't we need to simply monitor a broadband signal from both directions and correlate with respect to time since the spectrum or our star varies?
Re: Long Delayed Echoes
In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Sat, 30 Apr 2005 18:25:28 -0400: Hi, [snip] Okay, here's a proposal . . . We hit the Heliopause with an impulse and check the resulting response. Maybe detonate a small device on the other side of Sol? Try googling radar ranging results for the moon/Venus/mars, and see if any long delayed echoes are mentioned. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread.
Re: Long Delayed Echoes
Robin van Spaandonk wrote: Try googling radar ranging results for the moon/Venus/mars, and see if any long delayed echoes are mentioned. Be more specific, pls. Directional antennae could render your comment irrelevant.
Long Delayed Echoes
(Pink Floyd playing in background) Japanese Ham detects RF echoes with delays of 20 minutes and 82 hours! See if you can guess why before reading the article: http://park1.wakwak.com/~ja7ao/lde/ldese.htm
Re: Long Delayed Echoes
Terry Blanton wrote: (Pink Floyd playing in background) Japanese Ham detects RF echoes with delays of 20 minutes and 82 hours! See if you can guess why before reading the article: http://park1.wakwak.com/~ja7ao/lde/ldese.htm ?? OK, I read the page, and my immediate reaction to their proposed explanation is NO WAY. As I understand it, they believe that the signal went out, away from Earth, 10 light minutes or 41 light hours, respectively, bounced off of something (doesn't matter what, as far as I'm concerned) and came back to Earth, and was detected by a ham with amateur radio equipment. As Bones would occasionally say in Star Trek, That's impossible! To receive a ham-generated signal 82 light hours from its point of origin, using ham equipment, seems to me to require that the signal be focused in some way. The fact that this only happens around solar maxima would seem to suggest that the signals are being guided around the Earth by the highly active ionosphere. If this is for real, I'd guess that the 82 hour signal had just been going around and around the Earth for 82 hours. That's awfully hard to believe, I grant you, but it seems a lot easier to buy than that the signal was still detectable after a trek across 82 light hours of 1/r^2 straight-line travel in space. So, have I just shown my ignorance here, or what? :-)
Re: Re: Long Delayed Echoes
From: Stephen A. Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] To receive a ham-generated signal 82 light hours from its point of origin, using ham equipment, seems to me to require that the signal be focused in some way. He supposedly has the proof; but, focusing is a possibility. Imagine you're a point source at the center of a 41 light hour radius reflective sphere.
Re: Long Delayed Echoes
I believe that the delayed echoes are caused by electromagnetic ducting around the earth. I remember that a TV station in the mid-USA had a test pattern which appeared long after the station ceased to function. Ducting is not uncommon for short periods. Note that radio waves are bent by gravity and could possibly orbit under the right conditions. It would be interesting to know what fresquencies were involved and the time of day. Bob KB7HP
RE: Long Delayed Echoes
I agree. Ducting between the poles is a well known phenomena, although the 20 minute delay is much more common than the 82 hour one. The ducting is due to the ionosphere and the magnetic poles, and the effect varies with the solar weather. I disagree that gravity is the cause. This is a plasma effect in conjunction with the earths magnetic field. It's interesting that RC has been banging on about frozen light, this effect is very closely related. K. -Original Message- From: Robert Brady [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 12:06 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Long Delayed Echoes I believe that the delayed echoes are caused by electromagnetic ducting around the earth. I remember that a TV station in the mid-USA had a test pattern which appeared long after the station ceased to function. Ducting is not uncommon for short periods. Note that radio waves are bent by gravity and could possibly orbit under the right conditions. It would be interesting to know what fresquencies were involved and the time of day. Bob KB7HP
Re: Re: Long Delayed Echoes
From: Robert Brady [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2005/04/29 Fri PM 12:05:36 EDT To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Long Delayed Echoes I believe that the delayed echoes are caused by electromagnetic ducting around the earth. Perhaps, but then, how do you explain the doppler shift?
Re: Long Delayed Echoes
In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Fri, 29 Apr 2005 11:51:36 -0400: Hi, [snip] He supposedly has the proof; but, focusing is a possibility. Imagine you're a point source at the center of a 41 light hour radius reflective sphere. ..such as the Heliopause perhaps? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread.
