Re: Ooops! Fancy that! 8-)
Now THAT's an ambitious project suitable for the new year...HNY Sir Grimer! -Original Message- From: Grimer I'll have to work out a nice simple example that everyone can understand. ___ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com
Re: Ooops! Fancy that! 8-)
At 12:13 pm 30/12/2005 -0500, hohlraum wrote: >My bad. I should have used a less controversial example. Don't worry about it. It is the wood which is of concern here - not the trees. It's a problem for Bigenders. ;-) It seems to me that the Blackbody Radiation curves are the result of missing the longitudinal dimension. I think it is one of those things which once one has seen it, only a Dr.Porky would still perversely ignore - but we shall see. 8-) I'll have to work out a nice simple example that everyone can understand. Cheers, Frank
Re: Ooops! Fancy that! 8-)
At 05:46 pm 29/12/2005 -0500, hohlraum wrote: > Okay, let me try this again. > Stefan's law may be used to predict the > temperature of the sun. > > This prediction has been shown to be accurate > experimentally. In ancient Greece there was a man called Eugorus who discovered the law which connected the diameter and the ares of disks. He found that the Eugorus Law may be used to predict the area of those two disks up in the sky, the sun and the moon. And, as you might choose to put it. "This prediction has been shown to be accurate experimentally." And I would want to argue with that, would I. 8-) However, in viewing the sun and the moon merely as disks don't you think you might be missing out on something? 8-) A 6 inch cube is not a 6 cubic inch cube - and one gets a different feeling about a 6 inch cube when one refers to it as a 216 cubic inch cube. [To save you looking up Eugorus on Google - that was just a parable ;-) ] Cheers - and a Happy New Year. Frank == Who is she that comes forth as the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terrible as an army set in battle array? ==
Re: Ooops! Fancy that! 8-)
At 08:31 pm 29/12/2005 -0600, you wrote: >BlankHi Frank, well said. It fits. > My specific purpose for asking for more, besides enjoying the discourse, was > to set my mind thinking out my problem with most theories regarding the > Hutchinson Effect since I have difficulty with some references they make to > ghosts and hobgobblins. > http://www.americanantigravity.com/hutchison.html > >Richard Though I believe in ghosts - and hobgoblins providing they are demonic - I'm confident that the Hutchison Effect involves neither entities - as no doubt are you. 8-) Small point - Hutchison only has one n, which is important if you want to use a search engine. Frank
Re: Ooops! Fancy that! 8-)
RC Macaulay wrote: Hi Frank, Between the chuckle I can almost hear across the big pond, the latino blend of humor and my lack of understanding of how you arrived at T^12 gives the morning sunshine a lift. Please go over that jump again. Richard Hopefully someone will correct my understanding if I'm wrong, but it appears that Grimer has multiplied together the three components of the radiation 3-vector expressed in Cartesian coordinates. That _product_ goes as the twelfth power. What that product means, however, is beyond me. In other words, if "R" is the intensity 3-vector, and its components are R_x, R_y, R_z, then, using "*" for multiplication, we have R = (R_x, R_y, R_z) = (K * T^4, J * T^4, L * T^4) where K, J, and L are functions of the observer's location. Then we also have R_x * R_y * R_z = (K*J*L) * T^12 Right? - Original Message - From: "Grimer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2005 10:35 PM Subject: Re: Ooops! Fancy that! 8-) Experimentally a black body can be improvised by taking a hollow ball - coating the walls with soot and then drilling a hole in it along the x axis. If we warm this object - the radiation seen from the x direction is given by Stefan's law: R(x) [proportional] T^4 If we now drill holes along the y and z axes then the radiation seen from the y and z directions will be R(y) [proportional] T^4 R(z) [proportional] T^4 But each of these views are one dimensional views of a three dimensional entity, i.e. the radiation in the black body. Combining the three partial views into one whole view gives us, R(x).R(y).R(z) [proportional] T^4.T^4.T^4. R(x.y.z) [proportional] T^12 Cheers, Frank Grimer == et omnis qui audit verba mea haec et non facit ea similis erit viro stulto qui aedificavit domum suam supra harenam et descendit pluvia et venerunt flumina et flaverunt venti et inruerunt in domum illam et cecidit et fuit ruina eius magna8-) ==
Re: Ooops! Fancy that! 8-)
Hi Frank, well said. It fits. My specific purpose for asking for more, besides enjoying the discourse, was to set my mind thinking out my problem with most theories regarding the Hutchinson Effect since I have difficulty with some references they make to ghosts and hobgobblins. http://www.americanantigravity.com/hutchison.html Richard Grimer wrote... The 12th power law thing started with my discovery of the 12th, 8th and 4th power laws for the vapour pressures of ice, water and steam respectively. They were, of course, power laws from local temperature origins and not from the standard temperature origin of -273 deg.C. Professor Chaplin confirmed the existence of these power laws and put them in a refined form on his excellent web-site for water.The reason these power laws haven't be discovered before (even though the data has been around for the best part of a century) is because no one seems to have cottoned on to the idea of "local absolute" as opposed to "standard absolute" temperatures.Now it seemed obvious to me that these simple integral power laws were telling us something important. It also seemed obvious that they had two components, a dimensional component (powers 1, 2 and 3) and a quasi Stefan-Casimir component (power 4).So the three equations are really Vapour Pressure ice = constant. [T^4]^3 = T^12 Vapour Pressure water = constant. [T^4]^3 = T^8 Vapour Pressure steam = constant. [T^4]^1 = T^4Then I started thinking about Casimir and how it related to the reduction in Beta atmosphere pressure with metal cavities such as those which form when straining metals to failure in tension. Interestingly enough, most articles which discuss Casimir refer to it as an internal tensile force. They seem very reluctant to view Casimir as an external compressive force. Maybe they don't want to humble themselves by recognising there is something out there and we are not self-sufficient. 8-)I asked myself what would happen if I had 3 orthogonal sets of Casimir plates, perfectly sealed against the Beta-atmosphere where they met, and I pulled them apart thus expanding the cavity they enclosed. I realised that this would give me three 4th power laws, mutually at right angles.But how did these three power laws combine? They had to be multiplicative. The vapour pressure laws indicated that. But how could I model that. The concept of the space expanding one dimension at a time from a small initial sphere to a prolate sphere, from a prolate sphere to an oblate sphere and finally from an oblate sphere to a large final sphere gave me the model I needed.Then it suddenly dawned on me that there was something very dodgy about the foundation stone of modern quantum theory, the Stefan Radiation Law. To vary your analogy, slightly, it was a one legged stool. That led to this following first post in the Ooops thread;============Ooops! Fancy that! 8-)GrimerFri, 16 Dec 2005 23:07:12 -0800I've just realised one of the consequences of the 3D Casimir Law.Stefan's fourth power law only presents a one dimensional view of things. In fact the energy density goes down according to (LAC)^(-12) where LAC is Local Absolute Compreture and Compreture is the reciprocal of temperature as measured from the local "absolute" zero.That why the Vapour Pressure vs. temperature is a twelfth power law.Oh dearie me. The physicists won't be pleased. But I will certainly enjoy the schadenfreude. 8-)Cheers,Frank Grimerand I remember, you seemed to be the only person who understood what I was driving at.However most people are not very good at three dimensional modelling based on symbols only, so I wanted to give them something related to a physical object like your three legged stool. Now the obvious object to choose was the spherical black body which was originally used in the experiment from which Stefan's Law was derived, namely a sphere with a small hole. It was only then a matter of thinking out the best verbalization to get people to see that the experiment only presented a truncated view of reality.I hope my explanation has answered your general query - but if you have any specific points I will do my best to answer them.Cheers,Frank
Re: Ooops! Fancy that! 8-)
Okay, let me try this again. Stefan's law may be used to predict the temperature of the sun. This prediction has been shown to be accurate experimentally. -Original Message- From: Grimer At 11:17 am 29/12/2005 -0500, hohlraum wrote: I see your point, Goody, goody, gumdrops. 8-) ___ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com
Re: Ooops! Fancy that! 8-)
Okay, let me try this again. Stefan's law may be used to predict the temperature of the sun. This prediction has been shown to be accurate experimentally. -Original Message- From: Grimer At 11:17 am 29/12/2005 -0500, hohlraum wrote: I see your point, Goody, goody, gumdrops. 8-) ___ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com
Re: Ooops! Fancy that! 8-)
At 07:47 am 29/12/2005 -0600, you wrote: > Hi Frank, > > Between the chuckle I can almost hear across > the big pond, the latino blend of humor and my > lack of understanding of how you arrived at T^12 > gives the morning sunshine a lift. Please go > over that jump again. > > Richard .. Before I start, to save other Vorts from going over all this again I tried to send the following as a private email. Unfortunately it was bounced back for reasons unknown to me. .. You sound as though you need a historical resumé - so I'll go through it from the beginning. The 12th power law thing started with my discovery of the 12th, 8th and 4th power laws for the vapour pressures of ice, water and steam respectively. They were, of course, power laws from local temperature origins and not from the standard temperature origin of -273 deg.C. Professor Chaplin confirmed the existence of these power laws and put them in a refined form on his excellent web-site for water. The reason these power laws haven't be discovered before (even though the data has been around for the best part of a century) is because no one seems to have cottoned on to the idea of "local absolute" as opposed to "standard absolute" temperatures. Now it seemed obvious to me that these simple integral power laws were telling us something important. It also seemed obvious that they had two components, a dimensional component (powers 1, 2 and 3) and a quasi Stefan-Casimir component (power 4). So the three equations are really Vapour Pressure ice= constant. [T^4]^3 = T^12 Vapour Pressure water = constant. [T^4]^3 = T^8 Vapour Pressure steam = constant. [T^4]^1 = T^4 Then I started thinking about Casimir and how it related to the reduction in Beta atmosphere pressure with metal cavities such as those which form when straining metals to failure in tension. Interestingly enough, most articles which discuss Casimir refer to it as an internal tensile force. They seem very reluctant to view Casimir as an external compressive force. Maybe they don't want to humble themselves by recognising there is something out there and we are not self-sufficient. 8-) I asked myself what would happen if I had 3 orthogonal sets of Casimir plates, perfectly sealed against the Beta-atmosphere where they met, and I pulled them apart thus expanding the cavity they enclosed. I realised that this would give me three 4th power laws, mutually at right angles. But how did these three power laws combine? They had to be multiplicative. The vapour pressure laws indicated that. But how could I model that. The concept of the space expanding one dimension at a time from a small initial sphere to a prolate sphere, from a prolate sphere to an oblate sphere and finally from an oblate sphere to a large final sphere gave me the model I needed. Then it suddenly dawned on me that there was something very dodgy about the foundation stone of modern quantum theory, the Stefan Radiation Law. To vary your analogy, slightly, it was a one legged stool. That led to this following first post in the Ooops thread; ======== Ooops! Fancy that! 8-) Grimer Fri, 16 Dec 2005 23:07:12 -0800 I've just realised one of the consequences of the 3D Casimir Law. Stefan's fourth power law only presents a one dimensional view of things. In fact the energy density goes down according to (LAC)^(-12) where LAC is Local Absolute Compreture and Compreture is the reciprocal of temperature as measured from the local "absolute" zero. That why the Vapour Pressure vs. temperature is a twelfth power law. Oh dearie me. The physicists won't be pleased. But I will certainly enjoy the schadenfreude. 8-) Cheers, Frank Grimer and I remember, you seemed to be the only person who understood what I was driving at. However most people are not very good at three dimensional modelling based on symbols only, so I wanted to give them something related to a physical object like your three legged stool. Now the obvious object to choose was the spherical black body which was originally used in the experiment from which Stefan's Law was derived, namely a sphere with a small hole. It was only then a matter of thinking out the best verbalization to get people to see that the experiment only presented a truncated view of reality. I hope my explanation has answered your general query - but if you have any specific points I will do my best to answer them. Cheers, Frank >- Original Message - >From: "Grimer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: >Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2005 10:35 PM >Subject: Re: Ooops! Fancy that!
Re: Ooops! Fancy that! 8-)
At 11:17 am 29/12/2005 -0500, hohlraum wrote: > I see your point, Goody, goody, gumdrops. 8-) > but consider this: when a single photon... Hold it right there. It may surprise you to know that not everybody believes in photons. People such as Caroline Thompson for instance - one smart cookie, she - fearless too.;-) Thompson writes: "That light can be converted into electricity is now common knowledge, but does this mean that individual "photons" cause the ejection of individual "electrons"? Of course not! Before the "deification" of Einstein by the New York Times after the claimed confirmation of his General Theory of Relativity -- the 1919 eclipse data that confirmed his prediction of the bending of starlight -- Einstein was just about on his own in thinking the light could exist as localised "photons" (See Forgotten History). Moreover, in the real world there are many different variations on the effect, and it merges with "thermionic emission" and other known effects. Presumably the complete theory should also cover Compton scattering, in which light (gamma rays) causes the ejection of electrons but leaves spare energy which goes into the production of further gamma rays, of reduced energy. That the process cannot be a matter of individual photon- electron interactions is clear, one reason being simply that photons do not exist. Another reason is the scale of things: the wavelengths of the light are very much greater, in most cases, than the dimensions of an electron. In my view (shared by others such as Millikan) the light arrives as a complete wave, spreading over the entire receiving surface. In the case I have thought about most -- the application of the effect in "photomultipliers" of the type used by Alain Aspect in his Bell test experiments -- it influences the electric field throughout the material of the photocathode. The waves will suffer both self- interference and interactions with pre-existing oscillations of electrons. Where these two effects combine favourably, some threshold is exceeded and an electron gains enough energy to escape." Yeah, well. The closest I ever got to her insights was to see electron emission as the manifestation of "activation energy" analogous to the chemical activation that I investigated in relation to deterioration of zirconia glass fibre used for reinforcing cement. But my strongest reason for not believing in photons is more philosophical than physical - more to do with my understanding of the totality of existence than the nature of the material world. All of which means that the rest... -- > leaves a star, being a wave structure, that photon > extends radially in all directions. When I look > at the star and the photon strikes the rod in my > retina, all the energy of *that* photon is absorbed > by my eye. - ...is a bit academic - N'est pas? > "Collegerunt ergo et impleverunt duodecim cofinos > fragmentorum ex quinque panibus hordiaciis quae > superfuerunt his qui manducaverunt" It's the duodecim which interests me more than the fragmentorum. I'll leave you with this thought. Twelve dinners Eight guests Four for the staff Cheers, Frank >-Original Message- >From: Grimer > > R(x.y.z) [proportional] T^12 >___
Re: Ooops! Fancy that! 8-)
I see your point, but consider this: when a single photon leaves a star, being a wave structure, that photon extends radially in all directions. When I look at the star and the photon strikes the rod in my retina, all the energy of *that* photon is absorbed by my eye. "Collegerunt ergo et impleverunt duodecim cofinos fragmentorum ex quinque panibus hordiaciis quae superfuerunt his qui manducaverunt" -Original Message- From: Grimer R(x.y.z) [proportional] T^12 ___ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com
Re: Ooops! Fancy that! 8-)
Hi Frank, Between the chuckle I can almost hear across the big pond, the latino blend of humor and my lack of understanding of how you arrived at T^12 gives the morning sunshine a lift. Please go over that jump again. Richard - Original Message - From: "Grimer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2005 10:35 PM Subject: Re: Ooops! Fancy that! 8-) Experimentally a black body can be improvised by taking a hollow ball - coating the walls with soot and then drilling a hole in it along the x axis. If we warm this object - the radiation seen from the x direction is given by Stefan's law: R(x) [proportional] T^4 If we now drill holes along the y and z axes then the radiation seen from the y and z directions will be R(y) [proportional] T^4 R(z) [proportional] T^4 But each of these views are one dimensional views of a three dimensional entity, i.e. the radiation in the black body. Combining the three partial views into one whole view gives us, R(x).R(y).R(z) [proportional] T^4.T^4.T^4. R(x.y.z) [proportional] T^12 Cheers, Frank Grimer == et omnis qui audit verba mea haec et non facit ea similis erit viro stulto qui aedificavit domum suam supra harenam et descendit pluvia et venerunt flumina et flaverunt venti et inruerunt in domum illam et cecidit et fuit ruina eius magna8-) ==
Re: Ooops! Fancy that! 8-)
Experimentally a black body can be improvised by taking a hollow ball coating the walls with soot and then drilling a hole in it along the x axis. If we warm this object the radiation seen from the x direction is given by Stefans law: R(x) [proportional] T^4 If we now drill holes along the y and z axes then the radiation seen from the y and z directions will be R(y) [proportional] T^4 R(z) [proportional] T^4 But each of these views are one dimensional views of a three dimensional entity, i.e. the radiation in the black body. Combining the three partial views into one whole view gives us, R(x).R(y).R(z) [proportional] T^4.T^4.T^4. R(x.y.z) [proportional] T^12 Cheers, Frank Grimer == et omnis qui audit verba mea haec et non facit ea similis erit viro stulto qui aedificavit domum suam supra harenam et descendit pluvia et venerunt flumina et flaverunt venti et inruerunt in domum illam et cecidit et fuit ruina eius magna8-) ==
Re: Ooops! Fancy that! 8-)
At 10:23 am 17/12/2005 -0500, hohlraum wrote: > Then, shouldn't that light bulb floating > above your head be much brighter? ;-) Not if you are only looking at the front elevation and you forget about the side elevation and plan.
Re: Ooops! Fancy that! 8-)
At 08:38 am 17/12/2005 -0600, you wrote: > Hi Frank... it came as a "bolt out of the blue". > Like viewing a two legged stool from the face. > Looks balanced.. until you take a side view and > notice something is missing the balance... > ah ha! The Vapour pressure vs the Temperature > in 12th power can be thought of as a "differential > function" Do you actually consider that physics > would accept such an observation? Or will they > continue to think in 2 dimensions or rely on their > marvelous ability to sustain a balancing act of > sitting on a two legged stool actually believing > they can lean back upon their laurels? Time to > put away the toys and the teeter-totters and get > the world show on the road. Surely this group has > the imagination to conceive the huge leap that > Frank's thought invokes. > Richard I'm really impressed Richard. 8-) I didn't think anyone on Vortex would geddit. As for Stefan's Law (and all the quantum consequences) it's more like a one legged stool. That's why they have to be so clever to keep their balance. ;-) I've written a little fable to illustrate the point. THE BROTHERS SHORTPLANK The two Shortplank Brothers had a great cubic pile of bread pallets. Tricky Dicky offered to buy half the bread. So the Shortplanks measured the cube and found it was 40 feet long. Tricky took away his pallets. To make sure Tricky hadn't taken too many the Shortplanks measured their cubic pile to check it was 20 feet long. It was. Dicky started selling his bread at half Shortplank's price The Shortplank brothers couldn't understand how Tricky managed this. Needless to say, ere long, the brothers went out of business. Hence the saying, "As thick as two Shortplanks". 8-) - Cheers, Frank et sublatum est quod superfuit illis fragmentorum cofini duodecim
Re: Ooops! Fancy that! 8-)
Then, shouldn't that light bulb floating above your head be much brighter? ;-) -Original Message- From: Grimer I've just realised one of the consequences of the 3D Casimir Law. Stefan's fourth power law only presents a one dimensional view of things. In fact the energy density goes down according to (LAC)^(-12) where LAC is Local Absolute Compreture and Compreture is the reciprocal of temperature as measured from the local "absolute" zero. That why the Vapour Pressure vs. temperature is a twelfth power law. Oh dearie me. The physicists won't be pleased. But I will certainly enjoy the schadenfreude. 8-) ___ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com
Re: Ooops! Fancy that! 8-)
Hi Frank... it came as a "bolt out of the blue". Like viewing a two legged stool from the face. Looks balanced.. until you take a side view and notice something is missing the balance... ah ha! The Vapor pressure vs the Temperature in 12th power can be thought of as a "differential function" Do you actually consider that physics would accept such an observation ? Or will they continue to think in 2 dimensions or rely on their marvelous ability to sustain a balancing act of sitting on a two legged stool actually believing they can lean back upon their laurels ? Time to put away the toys and the teeter-totters and get the world show on the road. Surely this group has the imagination to conceive the huge leap that Frank's thought invokes. Richard - Original Message - From: "Grimer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2005 1:05 AM Subject: Ooops! Fancy that! 8-) I've just realised one of the consequences of the 3D Casimir Law. Stefan's fourth power law only presents a one dimensional view of things. In fact the energy density goes down according to (LAC)^(-12) where LAC is Local Absolute Compreture and Compreture is the reciprocal of temperature as measured from the local "absolute" zero. That why the Vapour Pressure vs. temperature is a twelfth power law. Oh dearie me. The physicists won't be pleased. But I will certainly enjoy the schadenfreude. 8-) Cheers, Frank Grimer
Ooops! Fancy that! 8-)
I've just realised one of the consequences of the 3D Casimir Law. Stefan's fourth power law only presents a one dimensional view of things. In fact the energy density goes down according to (LAC)^(-12) where LAC is Local Absolute Compreture and Compreture is the reciprocal of temperature as measured from the local "absolute" zero. That why the Vapour Pressure vs. temperature is a twelfth power law. Oh dearie me. The physicists won't be pleased. But I will certainly enjoy the schadenfreude. 8-) Cheers, Frank Grimer
