Re: [Vo]:A cup of coffee and the history of heat
On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 9:05 AM JonesBeene wrote: > *From: *H LV > > > >- The type of "negative temperature" discussed in the article is not >actually colder than absolute zero. It corresponds to something that has >alot of energy so it cannot be called a heat sink. > > > > Maybe not. Firstly, any and all mass contains “a lot of energy” in one > appraisal, so that characteristic alone does not make a new kind of heat > sink impossible. > > > I don't have a problem with temperatures below absolute zero. I have a problem with this particular construct. This "negative temperatures" is described as being hotter than all temperatures above absolute zero which suggests the presence of a error somewhere in the chain of reasoning. > This goes beyond semantics in a way when we get down to specifics -- since > the actual energy content of dense hydrogen, for instance, must be less > than the natural species – assuming that it gave up energy in order to > reach a dense state. OTOH a cooling or heat sink effect could serve to > slowly “reinflate” the gas, which makes it of limited usefulness but > definitely a thermal anomaly > > - > By definition a heat sink is capable of absorbing energy, so a hydrino is a heat sink waiting to absorb energy and re-inflate. > True – a dense state of hydrogen does not mean that the effective > “coldness” is usable in a secondary (Boyle’s Law) way but all of this is > wildly speculative. > > > Obviously, the best if not only resolution is to find a way to produce and > store dense hydrogen for later use in experiments. > > > > Mills claims to have done this, and possibly Norront as well - but most > observers are not convinced. > > > > If Mills could really collect hydrinos, he would have demonstrated the > hydrino-battery a lone time ago. In fact, the battery could be his best > application of the effect (on paper). > > > > > If hydrino is a heat sink, i.e. a source of cold, it could be used to perform work as part of an engine. If it is possible to make or harvest hydrinos with less energy than you can get out of them when they are re-inflated then hydrinos could serve as a primary source of energy. If not they can "only" serve a secondary source of energy. Harry
RE: [Vo]:A cup of coffee and the history of heat
From: H LV ➢ The type of "negative temperature" discussed in the article is not actually colder than absolute zero. It corresponds to something that has alot of energy so it cannot be called a heat sink. Maybe not. Firstly, any and all mass contains “a lot of energy” in one appraisal, so that characteristic alone does not make a new kind of heat sink impossible. This goes beyond semantics in a way when we get down to specifics -- since the actual energy content of dense hydrogen, for instance, must be less than the natural species – assuming that it gave up energy in order to reach a dense state. OTOH a cooling or heat sink effect could serve to slowly “reinflate” the gas, which makes it of limited usefulness but definitely a thermal anomaly True – a dense state of hydrogen does not mean that the effective “coldness” is usable in a secondary (Boyle’s Law) way but all of this is wildly speculative. Obviously, the best if not only resolution is to find a way to produce and store dense hydrogen for later use in experiments. Mills claims to have done this, and possibly Norront as well - but most observers are not convinced. If Mills could really collect hydrinos, he would have demonstrated the hydrino-battery a lone time ago. In fact, the battery could be his best application of the effect (on paper).
Re: [Vo]:A cup of coffee and the history of heat
The type of "negative temperature" discussed in the article is not actually colder than absolute zero. It corresponds to something that has alot of energy so it cannot be called a heat sink. This "Negative temperature" is a statistical consequence of "population inversion", whereby most of the particles are confined to a higher energy state, which is unlike the usual Bolztmann statistics where most particles have low kinetic energy and only a few have high kinetic energy. The aim of Boltzmann statistics was to explain temperature in terms of the kinetics of vast numbers of microscopic particles. A temperature below absolute zero that is hotter than absolute zero is an oxymoron and is a sign there is something intellectually bankrupt with physics. Harry On Sun., Nov. 15, 2020, 4:07 p.m. Jones Beene, wrote: > H LV wrote: > > Using a cup of coffee as a starting point this blogger provides a friendly > introduction to the history of the science of heat. He also leaves the > reader with an open question. > > https://www.beanthinking.org/?tag=caloric > > Harry > > Well-named article... even though it chooses to ignore implications of > "negative temperature" (below zero K). > > And why not? It is a contentious subject. Here is an older Science News > article which touches on negative temperature. > > https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/01/130104143516.htm > > But ... for the sake of argument, imagine that a simple experiment > determines two things about the special type of hydrogen which is formed > via the Holmlid/Mills effect - which effect results in a dense hydrogen > species that should be useful in its own right, even after giving up > anomalous heat. This would be a second use of the Holmlid effect. > > Furthermore let's assume that one characteristic of this H* gas (besides > higher density) is that the atoms do not repel each other as does normal > hydrogen -- since electrons have been catalytically moved into stable lower > orbitals - which make the apparent nuclear charge more positive than > before to its surroundings (due to the negative near-field of orbital > electrons being compressed. Thus. thus dense H clusters can be easily > formed. Even if the effect of negative temperature is weak, it points the > way to a simple energy anomaly in thermal conversion efficiency . > > Proposed application of negative temperature effect: It could be possible > such a dense hydrogen gas, mixed together with an inert gas like Argon > (which atoms do repel one another) -- to construct a new type of Sterling > piston engine which is extremely efficient, perhaps twice the Carnot > efficiency using only solar heat, since there is an effective heat sink > available from within the gas itself - which can be used to harness a bit > of negative temperature. > > Of course, this is assuming that "negative temperature" and dense hydrogen > are both real and interrelated. > > The bottom line is that atoms of dense hydrogen would tend to exert a > negative instead of a positive pressure when heated. As a consequence, the > atoms for a dense cloud which "wants to contract" when thermal input and > this is balanced against the Argon component, which is more like a perfect > gas. For this to work there would probably need to be a permeable membrane > to separate the two gas, but there are a few good candidates for this. > > Maybe this is a product of too much coffee... > >
Re: [Vo]:A cup of coffee and the history of heat
H LV wrote: Using a cup of coffee as a starting point this blogger provides a friendly introduction to the history of the science of heat. He also leaves the reader with an open question. https://www.beanthinking.org/?tag=caloric Harry Well-named article... even though it chooses to ignore implications of "negative temperature" (below zero K). And why not? It is a contentious subject. Here is an older Science News article which touches on negative temperature. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/01/130104143516.htm But ... for the sake of argument, imagine that a simple experiment determines two things about the special type of hydrogen which is formed via the Holmlid/Mills effect - which effect results in a dense hydrogen species that should be useful in its own right, even after giving up anomalous heat. This would be a second use of the Holmlid effect. Furthermore let's assume that one characteristic of this H* gas (besides higher density) is that the atoms do not repel each other as does normal hydrogen -- since electrons have been catalytically moved into stable lower orbitals - which make the apparent nuclear charge more positive than before to its surroundings (due to the negative near-field of orbital electrons being compressed. Thus. thus dense H clusters can be easily formed. Even if the effect of negative temperature is weak, it points the way to a simple energy anomaly in thermal conversion efficiency . Proposed application of negative temperature effect: It could be possible such a dense hydrogen gas, mixed together with an inert gas like Argon (which atoms do repel one another) -- to construct a new type of Sterling piston engine which is extremely efficient, perhaps twice the Carnot efficiency using only solar heat, since there is an effective heat sink available from within the gas itself - which can be used to harness a bit of negative temperature. Of course, this is assuming that "negative temperature" and dense hydrogen are both real and interrelated. The bottom line is that atoms of dense hydrogen would tend to exert a negative instead of a positive pressure when heated. As a consequence, the atoms for a dense cloud which "wants to contract" when thermal input and this is balanced against the Argon component, which is more like a perfect gas. For this to work there would probably need to be a permeable membrane to separate the two gas, but there are a few good candidates for this. Maybe this is a product of too much coffee...
